Re: Casein in cream/butter?

[Guest guest]

> Casein in cream/butter?

>

>

>How much casein is contained in cream and hence butter? I know it's less

>than, say, whole cow's milk, but how *much* less?

Hey ,

Got a problem with casein? I didn't know that.

Well, I don't think anyone's studied this so doubt you will find an answer.

Maybe, if you google long enough you might find some obscure study on it?

In any case, if one has a problem with casein (assuming it's an IgA

reaction), any amount is not really safe. IOW, better to use ghee and avoid

the casein altogether.

>

>And what happens to it if you cook with it, does it become less

>problematic? (This under some strange theoretical connection that people

>say never to heat raw milk etc. because one of the things that does is

>change the proteins).

I don't think anyone knows this either, but I don't think heating the

proteins causes the amino acid sequence to change, so heated butter probably

has the same amount of casein as unheated. Besides that, the problematic

opioid peptides (caseomorphin) are only *3* amino acids long! It requires

certain enzymes to break these peptides down, so I don't think heat has any

effect on them.

>

>What about something like Kerry Gold, which starts out with pasteurized

>milk? Did the pasteurization do something to the casein that gives me an

>out?

My guess is no.

>

>(desperately looking for an out here, although doubtful I'll find one)

>:-)

Ther IS an out, it's called " ghee " :-))

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 09:09 AM 7/25/05 -0400, you wrote:

>Hey ,

>

>Got a problem with casein? I didn't know that.

Not confirmed by testing, but it seems likely at this point. Still

working it out.

>>(desperately looking for an out here, although doubtful I'll find one)

>>:-)

>

>There IS an out, it's called " ghee " :-))

Suze, you're a gem. Thank you! I completely forgot about ghee!

*saunters off singing 'Ghee, wonderful ghee' to the tune of that song from

Oliver*

MFJ

Everything connects. The universe is not THAT chaotic. Beauty can

still be found in the most amazing places.

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, F. Jewett <mfjewett@...> wrote:

> What about something like Kerry Gold, which starts out with pasteurized

> milk? Did the pasteurization do something to the casein that gives me an

> out?

At best it would make your problem worse. Otherwise, everyone could

solve their problems with milk by simply drinking pasteurized milk!

Chris

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Robin Ann

>

>Ghee is the only " butter " I can have and when I first discovered it I went

>crazy and put it on everything. But, at least for me, I think a person can

>have too much ghee because I think one's liver can only handle a certain

>amount of butyrate at a time. I will try to find the reference for

>this but

>I'm running around too much right now. Suffice to say that over on the

>GFCFNN group, we (I, and Laurel) discovered that you can maybe have

>too much of a good thing. We all broke out with red bumps.. For me, I seem

>to be able to handle about 2 tsp. a day just fine. I try to have it with

>coconut oil because I remember reading also that it was helpful to combine

>VCO with animal fats.

>~Robin

I'm kinda skeptical about the idea that ghee overloads us with butyrate. Our

own guts *produce* butyrate given the right materials and butyrate is the

preferred energy source of the cells of the colon wall. Anyway, I don't have

any noticable reaction to it. I suspect that whatever's going on with you

and the other two on GFCFNN is fairly rare, and I'd guess it's not butyrate

but something else. Do you all react to *homemade* ghee or just commercial?

And if so, are you all reacting to the same brand?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> I'm kinda skeptical about the idea that ghee overloads us with butyrate.

> Our

> own guts *produce* butyrate given the right materials and butyrate is the

> preferred energy source of the cells of the colon wall. Anyway, I don't

> have

> any noticable reaction to it. I suspect that whatever's going on with you

> and the other two on GFCFNN is fairly rare, and I'd guess it's not butyrate

> but something else. Do you all react to *homemade* ghee or just commercial?

> And if so, are you all reacting to the same brand?

What does butyrate have to do with ghee per se, and how could it

possibly have much more than butter? Isn't ghee just butter minus the

milk solids?

I can tolerate a pound of butter a week quite fine. The idea that one

could overdose on butyrate from less than a tablespoon of butter seems

rather fantastical. Butyrate only makes up a small portion of

butterfat anyway.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>What does butyrate have to do with ghee per se, and how could it

>possibly have much more than butter? Isn't ghee just butter minus the

>milk solids?

Yes. I don't think it does have more than butter, other than a miniscule

amount perhaps displacing the milk solids. While I'm on the GFCFNN list, I

didn't follow too closely the posts about people having problems with ghee

or maybe I just forgot, but perhaps Robin can tell us what the thinking was

re ghee and butyrate.\

>

>I can tolerate a pound of butter a week quite fine. The idea that one

>could overdose on butyrate from less than a tablespoon of butter seems

>rather fantastical. Butyrate only makes up a small portion of

>butterfat anyway.

I think it's something like 4% butyrate.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Suze and About my experience with " too much " butyrate, I can't

remember where I saw the information but it had to do with the belief that

the butyrate portion of butter or ghee has to processed by the liver and so

ingesting too much at once for a period can overload the liver and cause a

person to feel foggy and as though they have a hangover -- also cause red

blotchy breakouts.

I thought it might be the reason behind the three (me, and Laurel)

of our almost simultaneous problems with ghee. We are all casein intolerant

and had been talking (and becoming excited) about ghee and so we all,

apparently, started eating a lot of it and all experienced red acne-like

blotches on our faces and foreheads and also reported a spacey feeling. I

have absolutely no way to document this and don't want to spend a lot of

time looking as I don't think I have much of an argumen :-) At the time, due

to a gluten problem I didn't know about, I had elevated liver enzymes and so

my liver wasn't working all that well to begin with. This is whole

butyrate/liver thing is obviously (I hope) nothing anyone should worry about

but I just thought I'd put it out there in case anyone else had a similar

experience as I'm still rather curious about it.

Here's one site I found but I don't know how much merit is in it. I also

don't understand this science journal type writing -- too many big words.

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/7/1986

And here's a nifty little explanation of the benefits of ghee that I

stumbled across in my own files. I don't know who to credit because I cut

and pasted it into a mail.

**

* " Butyric acid*

" Butyrate, one of the short chain fatty acids, could be significant, as it

has anti-neoplastic (prevents malignant growth) properties " (Scand J

Gastroenterol Suppl 1993;200:80-6).

" Butyric acid/ butyrate, produced during fermentation, reduces colonic pH

and inhibits secondary bile acids that are carcinogenic " (Ibid p80).

Butyric acid and other short chain fatty acids are taken up by the intestine

to be used for energy.

Butyric acid is specifically an important energy source for the cells lining

the COLON, where it seems to assist their normal development and

maintenance. Butyric acid seems to reduce chronic inflammatory conditions of

the colon, and high fecal levels correlate with decreased risk of colon

cancer.

Butyric acid works in several ways:

1. It reduces the inflammatory condition of these walls reducing

intracellular seepage of undigested food particles.

2. It seals up the holes left by penetration of the roots, i.e. rhizoids, of

candida albicans overgrowth, which are often implicated in secondary food

sensitivities.

3. By stimulating epithelial sloughing in the intestinal tract, new

attachment sites are created for favorable bio-flora such as bifidus and

acidophilus cultures. Re-establishing the balance of protective bacteria

supports our enzyme and fighter cell capabilities, which is necessary for

stronger immune support.

In compromised immune systems, undifferentiated cell growth can be inhibited

by butyric acid. "

~Robin

> but perhaps Robin can tell us what the thinking was

> re ghee and butyrate.\ Suze

>

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, Robin Ann <grainwreck@...> wrote:

> Hi Suze and About my experience with " too much " butyrate, I can't

> remember where I saw the information but it had to do with the belief that

> the butyrate portion of butter or ghee has to processed by the liver and so

> ingesting too much at once for a period can overload the liver and cause a

> person to feel foggy and as though they have a hangover -- also cause red

> blotchy breakouts.

I suppose it's possible that's true, but it doesn't seem to make much

sense to me, and it seems to conflict with the fact that most people

who eat butter can eat more than 2 tsp without this problem occurring.

It's my understanding that the liver is primarily responsible for

turning fatty acids into ketone bodies, so this would be true, I would

think, of all of the MCFAs and SFCAs that are destined for energy, so

I'm not sure why you would tolerate the VCO more than the butter if

this was your specific problem. Also, exercise or eating

carbohydrates would involve the liver even more, due to the breakdown

and/or formation of glycogen stores, for example.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Well, I've generally had a very hard time digesting fats since I was found

to have elevated liver enzymes. Since my liver has finally cleared (due to a

gluten-free diet) I've found I can tolerate a lot more fat. I'll try the

ghee experiment again and report back. ~Robin

I suppose it's possible that's true, but it doesn't seem to make much sense

to me, and it seems to conflict with the fact that most people who eat

butter can eat more than 2 tsp without this problem occurring. Chris