Re: Smoking & Health (was Lance Armstrong & physical abilities)

[Guest guest]

>-- much

>like when I used to have anxiety attacks, deep breathing would make

>them worse because it would increase my awareness of my heart rate,

>etc. Which I guess just means that I'll though I'm much saner than I

>used to be, I'm still a little neurotic.

>

>

And just plain weird. <g>

>That depends. In a way, I mostly only do cardio as warmups. However,

>I often do weight training with very low resting times. So, for

>example, last time I was at the gym I did squats and then a calf

>workout, probably 12 sets altogether plus warmup sets, with one minute

>resting between all sets. Would that count as interval training? It

>certainly speeds my heart rate up. Anyway, I've just started to

>include some cardio when at the gym to help fat loss, but it hasn't

>become a regular habit yet. I also work out with kettlebells usually

>once or twice a day, sometimes skipping a day, which are supposed to

>have a more profound effect on lowering resting HR than aerobics.

>Yesterday I did a k-bell workout that I tried to make mimic interval

>cardio training, where I did 20 sets of 10 two-arm swings, each

>separated by a little under one minute rest.

>

>

It sure seems like you'd be doing interval training with the mega squats

and k-bells. The extra cardio is a good habit to get into. You could

have longer warmups, but that might zap strength for the main workout.

Probably best to do it separate or at the end of the workout. The

latter choice would put you in prime fat burning mode with your glycogen

depleted.

>Well I sometimes go a day without smoking at all and at most smoke two

>cigarettes in a day, so I doubt it is a major priority. I basically

>smoke right now out of boredom. Also, since I'm trying to put a

>website together, I sometimes get to " thinking " time, and smoking a

>cigarette is nice for contemplation.

>

>

Excuses, excuses. I eat sunflower seeds in the shell as a less toxic

cigarette replacement. I am faster than most birds eating them, lol.

>I'm going to start karate training, and I'll probably drop smoking

>altogether then.

>

>

You'd be better off doing it now. Tae Kwon Do training was the most

intense cardio workout I've ever suffered through. We ran with those

big body punching back thingies for 1/2 a mile and did all this jump

rope and just super intense heart/lung activities. In my experience as

a former smoker, even one a day will cut your lung capacity down and

make you less able. I hope you get a brutal instructor and stick with

it, cuz I'm sure you'll quit then.

>Is there a dose-dependent

>response? If so, what's the difference in risk factor status for

>smoking 40 cigarettes a day, 20 cigarettes a day, and 2 cigarettes a

>day?

>

>

Yes, and second, I don't know exactly. However, it takes years for

things like inflammatory markers of CHD to return to baseline after

cessation of smoking. Thus, quitting is certainly preferable to cutting

down.

>Besides all that, while the risk of heart disease at my age is

>negligible, if there is anything that puts me on the map, it is

>periodontitis, my wisdom teeth, and my remaining root canaled tooth.

>Periodontitis is a worse risk factor than obesity, and mine is pretty

>bad, due, according to my dentist, to the presence of my deformed and

>mal-fitting wisdom teeth, of which I've had one of four removed so

>far. Root canaled teeth can cause heart disease, basically by the

>same mechanism, I think, as periodontitis, only probably worse.

>(Bacterial toxins are a primary cause of heart disease, some research

>indicates.)

>

>

That's another reason to quit smoking - to reduce your risk factors.

You have more than I knew about. Besides, http://www.smokersgums.com/

says:

" In the past decade a growing body of research evidence has shown that

there are risk factors which modify the initiation and progress of the

infection of the teeth and gums. Smoking is one of these " risk factors "

which can make your gum disease worse than if you did not smoke. "

And your age? Well, heart disease begins in childhood. You may be

asymptomatic, yet the time bomb is ticking just the same. People in

their forties can die of heart disease. And it sure *seems* that the

ones who get hit young are the stressed out smoking thin people. At

least you are not sedentary and you drink some red wine.

http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_risks_of_smoking_000041_2.htm

--------------------------------------

Smokers in their thirties and forties have a heart-attack rate that is

five times higher than their nonsmoking peers.

Any current smoker is at higher risk for heart disease or stroke.

Although heavy smokers--particularly those who smoke high-tar

cigarettes--are at highest risk, a 2002 study indicated that even light

smokers (as few as three cigarettes a day for women and six for men)

doubled their risk of heart attack.

----------------------------------------

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/11/991112064541.htm

" " This study of individuals with no known heart disease demonstrates

that heart disease begins at a very young age and well-developed plaque

deposits are present in one in six teenagers, " says the researcher. "

>

>Well, apparently I'm not truly hypertensive, since they never say

>anything about it at the doctor's office. I've been doing intense

>workouts for a couple years now. What kind of symptoms should I

>expect if they are doing any damage or putting me at any risk?

>

>

Why don't you call your doctor and get your last BP numbers? Why second

guess and assume he would tell you if it was high? He might figure

you're young or that he will watch it over time. You have a right and

responsibility to know your BP. You bought the ketone sticks, so get

the numbers and then you'll know one way or the other. You will most

likely be symptom free up to the end, whether it comes as a stroke or

heart attack. That may be why both hypertension and heart disease are

both often referred to as silent killers.

>

>In any case, my high heart rate and BP reaction have nothing

>whatsoever I do with smoking, because I haven't been smoking during

>any of the times that these observations were made. While it may be

>possible that the marginal benefit of getting rid of my one or two

>cigarettes a day is significant to my health, I think my main priority

>should be figuring out why my nervous system seems to be imbalanced.

>

>

Hello? So your BP, which you've said must be checked repeatedly to get

an acceptable number (whatever that is we don't know), has always been

taken when you were a nonsmoker. But smoking raises blood pressure!

Only one way to find out how it affects you; go to the doctor/gym and

see what your BP is now as a smoker (and see how the little dosage e is

playing in this). Your gym should definitely have a cuff, and it may be

a better environment to have it taken, you think?

>I'm guessing it is probably related to some kind of thyroid-adrenal

>imbalance, and it could be caused or aggravated by my dental problems.

> I was thinking I was hyper-thyroid a couple years ago, but now I'm

>wondering whether I've switched, or whether my " sped-up " symptoms have

>been a result of my adrenals compensating for my low thyroid with

>excess adrenaline. It seems possible that *some* of my cells could be

>de-sensititzed to one or the other hormone, thus inducing an excess of

>adrenaline, while other cells might *not* be desensitized to that

>hormone, thus creating a sped-up effect. In other words, my heart

>rate could be responding to the hormones correctly while my fat cells

>aren't, which could result in high heart rate coincident with the

>energy sludge and symptoms of low-metabolism I've had off coffee and

>with fat gain over the past few months.

>

>But I'm just throwing guesses out.

>

I think your throwing excuses out. <g> But yes, it is your life and

lungs and all that, just like your mom, eh? Certainly nicotine is a

powerful stimulant, much more so than coffee, iirc from my smoking

times. So smoking might have an impact on the adrenal issues you seem

to be having.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Hi Deanna,

Tae Kwon Do training was the most intense cardio workout I've ever

> > > suffered through. We ran with those big body punching back thingies for

1/2

> > > a mile and did all this jump rope and just super intense heart/lung

> > > activities. I hope you get a brutal instructor and stick with it, cuz I'm

> > > sure you'll quit [cigarettes] then.

> >

> > I was waay into tae kwon do in my early twenties. I competed at the

state level. I remember riding my motorcycle an hour and a half to Salem

Oregon to compete and got fouled (someone bruised my ribs so bad I thought

I'd died!) and I had to ride the bike all the way home and go to the doctor.

You MUST have a brutal but kind instructor :-) Mine was Master Kim (I was

the only girl he'd ever taught at the time) and he said things like " When

you're hungry, eat. When you're tired, sleep. " That was the way he spoke. We

did push-ups on our fists.

And if you do take up tae kwon do, I think you can get more exercise

doing the non-contact version. There's so much more control involved and

that's what it's all about!

~Robin

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

>

>

> >-- much

> >like when I used to have anxiety attacks, deep breathing would make

> >them worse because it would increase my awareness of my heart rate,

> >etc. Which I guess just means that I'll though I'm much saner than I

> >used to be, I'm still a little neurotic.

> >

> >

> And just plain weird. <g>

It's not that weird, in perspective. I think it relates to some of

the original events that triggered my many-years battle with anxiety

problems. In particular, the first time I smoked pot, when I was 13,

it was laced with something, I don't know what, that was a powerful

halucinogen and was making my heart rate go so high that it felt like

it was just openly flowing and I couldn't count it. I felt like I

suddenly got hit in the back of the neck with a sledgehammer, I was

alone, and I was worried that I was going to die. I think ever since

then I have had an anxiety about being able to feel my heart rate.

> It sure seems like you'd be doing interval training with the mega squats

> and k-bells. The extra cardio is a good habit to get into. You could

> have longer warmups, but that might zap strength for the main workout.

> Probably best to do it separate or at the end of the workout. The

> latter choice would put you in prime fat burning mode with your glycogen

> depleted.

From my experience, I've always found up to 40 minutes cardio to

enhance my weight workout rather than decrease my strength, despite

what all the magazines say. The main reason I don't do it is because I

fell out of the habit when I was so pressed for time, and I also find

cardio pretty boring and monotonous.

However, on the idea of doing it afterward, I did this for 20 minutes

after my last workout, and I had an amazing amount of energy and

endurance for it, much greater than when I do it before-hand. So I

think the hormones buzzing must have got my fat burning or something.

> Excuses, excuses. I eat sunflower seeds in the shell as a less toxic

> cigarette replacement. I am faster than most birds eating them, lol.

They aren't excuses. I don't need any " excuses " to smoke, I just do

it. Besides, relieving oral fixation through munching (on a

high-phytate food, no less) would just result in me snacking, which we

both agree is pretty bad for the hormonal (not to mention digestive)

system. I'm not entirely convinced that my on-and-off habit of

smoking 1-2 cigarettes a day is necessarily worse than munching on

snacks all day.

> You'd be better off doing it now. Tae Kwon Do training was the most

> intense cardio workout I've ever suffered through. We ran with those

> big body punching back thingies for 1/2 a mile and did all this jump

> rope and just super intense heart/lung activities. In my experience as

> a former smoker, even one a day will cut your lung capacity down and

> make you less able. I hope you get a brutal instructor and stick with

> it, cuz I'm sure you'll quit then.

Fair enough, but I can handle kettlebells now, which are pretty

intense, and I honestly don't think the very little bit of smoking

that I do is much of a major factor.

> >Is there a dose-dependent

> >response? If so, what's the difference in risk factor status for

> >smoking 40 cigarettes a day, 20 cigarettes a day, and 2 cigarettes a

> >day?

> >

> >

> Yes, and second, I don't know exactly. However, it takes years for

> things like inflammatory markers of CHD to return to baseline after

> cessation of smoking. Thus, quitting is certainly preferable to cutting

> down.

I'm not " cutting down, " I just don't smoke very much, and I really

*couldn't* " cut down " because I'm already at about the minimum!

> >Besides all that, while the risk of heart disease at my age is

> >negligible, if there is anything that puts me on the map, it is

> >periodontitis, my wisdom teeth, and my remaining root canaled tooth.

> >Periodontitis is a worse risk factor than obesity, and mine is pretty

> >bad, due, according to my dentist, to the presence of my deformed and

> >mal-fitting wisdom teeth, of which I've had one of four removed so

> >far. Root canaled teeth can cause heart disease, basically by the

> >same mechanism, I think, as periodontitis, only probably worse.

> >(Bacterial toxins are a primary cause of heart disease, some research

> >indicates.)

> That's another reason to quit smoking - to reduce your risk factors.

No, that isn't another reason, because you already said it.

> You have more than I knew about. Besides, http://www.smokersgums.com/

> says:

> " In the past decade a growing body of research evidence has shown that

> there are risk factors which modify the initiation and progress of the

> infection of the teeth and gums. Smoking is one of these " risk factors "

> which can make your gum disease worse than if you did not smoke. "

A " risk factor " can't " modify " anything, it is a correlative

indicator, and despite what this website says, which might be

applicable to some people's problems, my gums were bad before smoking

and aren't modified by smoking at all, far as I can tell, and smoking

is not causing or significantly aggravating the problem.

> And your age? Well, heart disease begins in childhood.

That's a bogus piece of crap line that is constantly trotted out by

the anti-cholesterol folks who can't tell the difference between a

fatty streak and an arteriosclerotic lesion, which are entirely

different phenomena.

> You may be asymptomatic, yet the time bomb is ticking just the same.

This is hysteria.

> People in their forties can die of heart disease.

Of course they can, but it is ridiculously rare, and I think the have

familial hypercholesterolemia.

> And it sure *seems* that the

> ones who get hit young are the stressed out smoking thin people. At

> least you are not sedentary and you drink some red wine.

Seems according to what? I would expect them to be the obese

diabetics and the familial hypercholesterolemics, but since I don't

regularly encounter people who die of heart attacks in their 40s, I

honestly can't give any description of what it " seems " like.

> http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_risks_of_smoking_000041_2.htm

> --------------------------------------

> Smokers in their thirties and forties have a heart-attack rate that is

> five times higher than their nonsmoking peers.

And what is the rate? To put it in perspective, you need the absolute

risk, not just the relative risk. If the risk was 0.001%, it would

be practically meaningless that smokers had a 0.005% risk, for an

exaggerated example.

> Any current smoker is at higher risk for heart disease or stroke.

Which, of course, says nothing about the causality of smoking! Not to

say that smoking *doesn't* play a role, but this risk factor crap

isn't " evidence " by itself of anything.

> Although heavy smokers--particularly those who smoke high-tar

> cigarettes--are at highest risk, a 2002 study indicated that even light

> smokers (as few as three cigarettes a day for women and six for men)

> doubled their risk of heart attack.

Apparently I smoke well below the minimum to make a difference,

although that is still confounded by all the other dietary and

lifestyle and income correlations with smoking, the past history

smoking heaviness of those same people (they could have " cut down " ),

and doesn't address the fact that not all cigarettes are equal, and

conventional flume-cured cigarettes are chemically different than

air-cured cigarettes and have all kinds of toxic additives in them.

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/11/991112064541.htm

> " " This study of individuals with no known heart disease demonstrates

> that heart disease begins at a very young age and well-developed plaque

> deposits are present in one in six teenagers, " says the researcher. "

And other's claim it begins in the womb, but these usually confuse

fatty streaks and benign plaque to actual lesions, which are what is

causally associated with heart disease. The Masai had a considerable

amount of plaque on their blood vessels, more than Americans, I think,

but their blood vessels were wider and they did not have

arteriosclerotic LESIONS, which are what can obstruct blood vessels

and whose chemical compositions are someone different than benign

plaque, yet they were thoroughly examined to be free of heart disease.

> Hello? So your BP, which you've said must be checked repeatedly to get

> an acceptable number (whatever that is we don't know), has always been

> taken when you were a nonsmoker. But smoking raises blood pressure!

> Only one way to find out how it affects you; go to the doctor/gym and

> see what your BP is now as a smoker (and see how the little dosage e is

> playing in this). Your gym should definitely have a cuff, and it may be

> a better environment to have it taken, you think?

It's a good idea, but no it wouldn't be a more comfortable

environment. Maybe getting one at home would be. Either way, I hate

the feeling of the blood pressure cuff and it pretty much gives me at

least some anxiety no matter what.

> I think your throwing excuses out. <g> But yes, it is your life and

> lungs and all that, just like your mom, eh? Certainly nicotine is a

> powerful stimulant, much more so than coffee, iirc from my smoking

> times. So smoking might have an impact on the adrenal issues you seem

> to be having.

Nicotine is a completely different kind of stimulant, and I would say

that caffeine's effects are much more dramatic, and everyone would

agree that they last much longer. So one could be under the influence

of caffeine for most of one's active day by drinking a cup in the

morning, whereas one is under the influence of nicotine for a pretty

insignificant portion of one's day if one smoke's a ciagrette after

dinner.

Jordan Rubin discusses a group in _The Maker's Diet_ who smoked daily

but were found to be free of heart disease. The !Kung San of the

Kalahari desert, the notorious diners of mongongo nuts, love to smoke

cigarettes and they don't even have high blood pressure! So there

must be more to the picture than smoking per se.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Ok, here's a study I would find interesting on the subject:

A cross-over intervention study where random samples of people are

taken that can provide at least six large groups. The group is a mix

of previous smokers and those who don't smoke but would be willing to

try for the study (probably hard to find and maybe unethical). They

would be randomly present in the two groups, not divided on that

basis, but the info would be recorded for statistical analysis.

Either the diet is controlled or the sample sizes are large enough to

make it a true random sample. Diet is recorded for statistical

analysis. One group does not smoke at all, one group smokes 1

cigarette, another 3, another 10, another 20, another 40, for example.

The 3 and 10 groups are are two groups each, one that smokes all

cigarettes only in the evening or latter half of the day, and the

other that smokes them evenly divided. The group who smokes one

cigarette would smoke it in the evening.

Everyone's blood pressure would be tested in the morning. This would

allow the first three groups to show whether any elevation of blood

pressure was a short-term effect of smoking each cigarette or was a

long-term effect that persisted beyond the other effects of the

cigarette on a semi-permanent basis. The groups would be

crossed-over, so everyone would get to be in each group, or at least

in one smoking group and one non-smoking group. The precise numbers

of cigarettes and different groups could be different, as long as the

concepts are retained:

1) the study should be crossover and intervention

2) the study should allow someone who smokes to be tested while NOT

under the influence of a cigarette (so, before they have smoked for

the day)

3) the study should calculate dose-dependence

4) the study should compare people who have a history of smoking with

those who don't

5)the study should adjust for diet, exercise, etc.

I would be particularly happy to see a comparison of conventional

cigarettes with additive-free air-cured smokes.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Robin Ann,

> I remember riding my motorcycle an hour and a half to Salem

>Oregon to compete and got fouled (someone bruised my ribs so bad I thought

>I'd died!) and I had to ride the bike all the way home and go to the doctor.

> You MUST have a brutal but kind instructor :-) Mine was Master Kim (I was

>the only girl he'd ever taught at the time) and he said things like " When

>you're hungry, eat. When you're tired, sleep. " That was the way he spoke. We

>did push-ups on our fists.

> And if you do take up tae kwon do, I think you can get more exercise

>doing the non-contact version. There's so much more control involved and

>that's what it's all about!

>

Hey, you're right, good catch! Injuries are common in martial arts, and

you definitely want someone professional and safety conscious. I

studied indirectly under Grandmaster Shin. And I am in shock: my former

instructor, whom I will now leave nameless, has been indicted by a

federal grand jury for child pornography. OMG!

Back to smoking. Don't you think should quit? How much of his

digestive and other problems are related to this. And if he won't, we

CAN put some moves over on him ... just kidding.

Deanna

PS. Grain Wreck is a good one.

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

> Hey, you're right, good catch! Injuries are common in martial arts, and

> you definitely want someone professional and safety conscious. I

> studied indirectly under Grandmaster Shin. And I am in shock: my former

> instructor, whom I will now leave nameless, has been indicted by a

> federal grand jury for child pornography. OMG!

I just found out that Ghandi liked to administer enemas to little girls.

> Back to smoking. Don't you think should quit? How much of his

> digestive and other problems are related to this.

Are you joking? Smokers have 8 times less a risk of gut cancers as do

non-smokers, and causality is shown by remission or improvement by

beginning smoking, and smoking tobacco has a dose-dependent effect in

preventing gluten-induced intestinal damage. In addition, anecdotes

about smoking improving digestion and digestive/gut problems are

common.

Smoking causing digestive issues? That's a good one! Ha!

Chris

[Guest guest]

>>And I am in shock: my former

>>instructor, whom I will now leave nameless, has been indicted by a

>>federal grand jury for child pornography. OMG!

>>

>>

>

>I just found out that Ghandi liked to administer enemas to little girls.

>

>

I am deadly serious. Please do not disparage great people. My world is

rocked. Please tell me you are joking and not believing me, one who had

received instruction and the offer to work with my disabled son, which

thankfully never did materialize. My skin is crawling and I feel sick.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=local & story_id=092504a3_warrior

- see my old pal and instructor

http://www.ice.gov/graphics/news/newsreleases/articles/arizona030305.htm

" Tucson Martial Arts Instructor Indicted in International Child Porn

Probe: Lader, 40, was indicted by a federal grand jury in

Tucson in July 2004 for possessing and receiving child pornography. The

case stems from leads generated by an ICE investigation into a

Belarus-based company called Regpay that provided credit card billing

services for some 50 child pornography websites. Forensic analysis of

personal computers taken from the local martial arts instructor's

residence turned up more than 1,000 images of child pornography. "

[Guest guest]

>This is hysteria.

>

Hi

Okay, fine. I am not the one with the overworked heart, adrenals, etc.

Let's wait and see what your blood pressure is and go from there. But

just as you have tweaked your diet some, eliminating this smoking factor

might prove helpful too. Perhaps do the low carb for a week, record any

difference, then go sans cigarettes next. You can take your heart rate,

can't you? Resting and workout.

Deanna

" Recall the face of the poorest and most helpless person you have

seen and ask yourself if the next step you contemplate is going to be of

any use to that person. " ?M.K.Gandhi

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

> >I just found out that Ghandi liked to administer enemas to little girls.

> I am deadly serious. Please do not disparage great people. My world is

> rocked. Please tell me you are joking and not believing me, one who had

> received instruction and the offer to work with my disabled son, which

> thankfully never did materialize. My skin is crawling and I feel sick.

>

> http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=local & story_id=092504a3_warrior

>

> - see my old pal and instructor

No, I believe you, but I am serious also-- I had just walked in from

outside, where a friend was walking by, and told me that he watched a

documentary in which this was said, and there was some documentation

about it, and one of his family members admitted it. I'm not sure

what that means, that he " liked " to. It sounded like a child abuse

thing, but I didn't see the documentary, so maybe it is different than

the way this person made it sound.

Good thing the opportunity didn't materialize!

Chris

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>My skin is crawling and I feel sick.

That revelation really blows, but at least you and your family weren't

directly affected by anything, right?

-

[Guest guest]

>

>No, I believe you, but I am serious also-- I had just walked in from

>outside, where a friend was walking by, and told me that he watched a

>documentary in which this was said, and there was some documentation

>about it, and one of his family members admitted it. I'm not sure

>what that means, that he " liked " to. It sounded like a child abuse

>thing, but I didn't see the documentary, so maybe it is different than

>the way this person made it sound.

>

Thank you for clarifying. For a second there I thought esqueness

was pervading your posts, yikes! Sorry, but it seemed unrelated content.

Seems pretty open and shut to me for the 5th degree black belt Lader.

He was raking in big bucks too. Sad, I usually can spot this weirdness

in folks and would have never guessed with . He's the one who

worked us to the bone in the dojang.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

>>My skin is crawling and I feel sick.

>>

>>

>That revelation really blows, but at least you and your family weren't

>directly affected by anything, right?

>

No no no. Thanks for asking. I am just wigging out and recollecting

and such. It's a trip. And surely I should give the benefit of

the doubt and call around and ask. I will do that. However, when the

feds working for Homeland Security seize his computer and have credit

receipts for nasty stuff ... well, it is just what it is, most likely.

Oh, there's more to it than that on a personal level. The trust issues

come up. I would have trusted him with much. I did. He was a good

friend, coworker and my instructor. We went to dinner sometimes. He

was also a counselor and confident.

Whether or not this is true, he is ruined in his profession. So it is

just rather shocking to see it on the web whilst searching for his

status as a martial artist.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

> Sorry, but it seemed unrelated content.

Well it wasn't particularly related, except that it was a coincidence

that I was just having the conversation minutes earlier.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Robin Ann,

>I remember riding my motorcycle an hour and a half to Salem

>Oregon to compete and got fouled (someone bruised my ribs so bad I thought

>I'd died!) and I had to ride the bike all the way home and go to the doctor.

>

>

>

Having dropped the ball on this: woman alive I can't believe you rode

that bike all the way back after being smashed in the ribs! In a

competition no less! Gotta love Master Kim though in the advice

department, simplicity is always best. Occam's razor can be applied to

so many situations. What I loved about Grandmaster Shin was this: he

was able to grasp a fly out of mid air. This is what simple feat I

relate to this 9th degree dude. His focus and reaction were but a mere

dance to witness, but one that would take generations to master. You

know what I mean, I am sure.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>

> Back to smoking. Don't you think should quit? How much of his

> > > digestive and other problems are related to this. And if he won't, we CAN

> > > put some moves over on him ... just kidding. Deanna

> > >

> > > PS. Grain Wreck is a good one.

> >

> > Hi Deanna! Thanks about " grainwreck " . Let's just say it " spoke " to me

:-) And of course I think that should quit smoking cigarettes but he

knows that better than you or I. The way I look at it, you pick your battles

and you pick your vices. We all know our own stuff. Some stuff we can talk

about on the Internet (like cigarettes) and other stuff, well, it's a bit

harder to talk about here but it is my belief that addictions do prevail

even among the most health concious of us. The mind works in mysterious ways

or something to that effect; It's the trying to get it to work *for* you

that's a little bit tricky..

I *do* think that if you're going to smoke cigarettes or drink too much or

shoot up drugs you should be producing some pretty incredible art or music

or writing etc; I mean it's one thing to kill yourself while creating a

masterpiece and another to kill yourself while watching daytime TV. Just as

an example.

So listen up: Stop Smoking. Maybe he will now... :-)

~Robin

[Guest guest]

> What I loved about Grandmaster Shin was this: he

> was able to grasp a fly out of mid air. Deanna

Well......I kill Yellow Jackets with my fork...

As a matter a fact just last night we were noticing that there have

been virtually no yellow jackets to fight away from our meals this

summer. It used to be a constant battle every warm night for about

10 years. But from the beginning of our move here to the country

this city girl has zapped every one of 'em with her fork (sometimes

I use two forks because their little bodies get caught in between

the tines and start to squiggle out.) No yellow jacket has left our

table with food and gone back to the hive and done their little

interpretive dance that tells the others where to go for grub.

My neighbors complain about wasps all the time but here, after 10

years and maybe a hundred wasps, they've tapered down to nothing and

I'm thinking that I've naturally selected them out with my fork..

I'm serious.

~Robin :-D

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, Robin Ann <grainwreck@...> wrote:

> >

> > Back to smoking. Don't you think should quit? How much of his

> > > > digestive and other problems are related to this. And if he won't, we

CAN

> > > > put some moves over on him ... just kidding. Deanna

> > > >

> > > > PS. Grain Wreck is a good one.

> > >

> > > Hi Deanna! Thanks about " grainwreck " . Let's just say it " spoke " to me

> :-) And of course I think that should quit smoking cigarettes but he

> knows that better than you or I. The way I look at it, you pick your battles

> and you pick your vices. We all know our own stuff. Some stuff we can talk

> about on the Internet (like cigarettes) and other stuff, well, it's a bit

> harder to talk about here but it is my belief that addictions do prevail

> even among the most health concious of us.

Huh? I think has adequately shown time and again that he is not

addicted to cigarettes, whether or not it is a good choice for him

(far more negligible in my mind than the coffee). The original study I

read on smoking a few years back concluded one could smoke ten

cigarettes a day and be just fine as long as you were eating a good

diet.

At any rate to call addicted is not warranted based on what he

has said here.

> The mind works in mysterious ways

> or something to that effect; It's the trying to get it to work *for* you

> that's a little bit tricky..

> I *do* think that if you're going to smoke cigarettes or drink too much or

> shoot up drugs you should be producing some pretty incredible art or music

> or writing etc; I mean it's one thing to kill yourself while creating a

> masterpiece and another to kill yourself while watching daytime TV. Just as

> an example.

Okay. said it to Deanna and I will say it here: this is hysteria :-)

> So listen up: Stop Smoking. Maybe he will now... :-)

> ~Robin

He might, but I doubt it will be because he thinks he is killing himself.

[Guest guest]

Hi , My words were tongue in cheek. I was simply taking the

opportunity to expand in another direction -- namely that we pick and choose

our little vices. It's something I know about because I have many. One's

personal vices are often more personal than sex. I'm loathe to ever dictate

in that area..

Personally, I would prefer to have smoked 2 packs a day for 20 years rather

than to have sustained this stupid damage to my guts from wheat; Heck, I

wish they'd outlaw grains! My villous atrophy and the small intestinal

lymphoma it portends is at least as dangerous as cigarettes and cigarettes I

could at least stop.

BTW I'm a bit like -- I've smoked and not smoked but never really

been addicted to them. If I had a boyfriend or close friends who smoked, I

smoked, if they didn't, I didn't. It was mostly social and they really taste

good in a bar...Oh, and art school and living in Tokyo you sort of *had* to

smoke. :-) so I guess you pick your spots.

In San Francisco, where I'm from, they've outlawed smoking even outside in

public places. Sidewalks, parks etc. Talk about insane!!

~Robin

> Huh? I think has adequately shown time and again that he is not

> addicted to cigarettes, whether or not it is a good choice for him (far more

> negligible in my mind than the coffee). The original study I read on smoking

> a few years back concluded one could smoke ten cigarettes a day and be just

> fine as long as you were eating a good diet.

> At any rate to call addicted is not warranted based on what he has

> said here.

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, Robin Ann <grainwreck@...> wrote:

> Hi , My words were tongue in cheek.

Oh I know you were having fun although I think there is some

underlying seriousness to your admonition to Chris. That is why I put

a smiley behind hysteria hoping you would realize I was having fun as

well.

You must be a west coaster like me hanging around on the lists this

time of night.

> I was simply taking the

> opportunity to expand in another direction -- namely that we pick and choose

> our little vices.

I understand but I don't necessarily consider smoking a vice.

> It's something I know about because I have many. One's

> personal vices are often more personal than sex. I'm loathe to ever dictate

> in that area.

Hmmm...is sex a vice?? Well if it is its a vice I don't want to do without, LOL!

> Personally, I would prefer to have smoked 2 packs a day for 20 years rather

> than to have sustained this stupid damage to my guts from wheat;

Well based on what I know of the literature, smoking would have

protected you from most of that damage. Personally, I would much

rather have a cigar which hints of chocolate and cinnamon with a nice

smooth finish. I mean, how could anyone ever compare a cigarette to

that?!

> Heck, I

> wish they'd outlaw grains! My villous atrophy and the small intestinal

> lymphoma it portends is at least as dangerous as cigarettes and cigarettes I

> could at least stop.

Assuming cigarettes *per se* are dangerous, which I am not at all convinced of.

> BTW I'm a bit like -- I've smoked and not smoked but never really

> been addicted to them. If I had a boyfriend or close friends who smoked, I

> smoked, if they didn't, I didn't. It was mostly social and they really taste

> good in a bar...Oh, and art school and living in Tokyo you sort of *had* to

> smoke. :-) so I guess you pick your spots.

I like cigars and pipes. I have gone from times where I was smoking

three a day to times were I would be lucky to smoke three in a year.

Never addicted and always for the most part, a social thing.

> In San Francisco, where I'm from, they've outlawed smoking even outside in

> public places. Sidewalks, parks etc. Talk about insane!!

Yes thats crazy. There are bars that have sprouted up in California

that sell " shares " to everyone for some really cheap price ($1?),

since " owners " are allowed to smoke but employees are not. If you

don't mind a shameless plug, I make mention of that in my article on

raw dairy: http://snipurl.com/f0ix

Prohibition doesn't work. All it does is make good people " criminals "

take care,

[Guest guest]

Hi Robin,

>Well......I kill Yellow Jackets with my fork...

>

>

LOL! After reading this one line, I had visions of yellow jackets being eaten.

> No yellow jacket has left our

>table with food and gone back to the hive and done their little

>interpretive dance that tells the others where to go for grub.

How funny. They must figure you *are* eating the ones that don't return.

May I call you Yellowjacket? <g>

Deanna

[Guest guest]

-

>Prohibition doesn't work. All it does is make good people " criminals "

That's true, and there should be more flexibility for smoking in private

spaces (my girlfriend mentioned yesterday that some city or state, I forget

which, is looking into banning smoking in CARS!?!??) but as someone who

reacts badly to smoke and who is hardly in some vanishingly small minority,

I have to say I'm 100% on board with bans on smoking in public spaces.

-

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Whether or not this is true, he is ruined in his profession. So it is

>just rather shocking to see it on the web whilst searching for his

>status as a martial artist.

I can imagine. At least you're one of the lucky ones, anyway, though

you're probably right about giving him the benefit of the doubt, at least

for now.

-

[Guest guest]

" Huh? I think has adequately shown time and again that he is not

addicted to cigarettes "

Sure, and the more times he adequately shows this, the more we believe him.

[Guest guest]

In San Francisco, where I'm from, they've outlawed smoking even outside in

public places. Sidewalks, parks etc. Talk about insane!!

~Robin

Also from SF - gotta say, I like it. I think that there is something damn

foul about smoking publicly where other people have to inhale it.

[Guest guest]

Gene-

>Also from SF - gotta say, I like it. I think that there is something damn

>foul about smoking publicly where other people have to inhale it.

I can't say I disagree, inasmuch as I HATE getting caught in a cloud of

smoke when I'm out walking somewhere. OTOH, I'm not sure how high it's

reasonable to place the bar for public-space smoking given that cars are

allowed to go all over the place spewing out exhaust. At any rate, I do

think reasonable care ought to be taken to give smokers a place to smoke

that doesn't involve ridiculous inconvenience to them or harm to others.

-