Re: Ann Landers Column/

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/02 9:11:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, hrn@...

writes:

> I still believe it is wrong to go to multiple doctors seeking multiple

> prescriptions and not inform those doctors that

> you are being " treated " by someone else. It is the secretive behavior that

> is at issue.

Ray:

Was he secretive or is that just what his wife said? I think all of us have

too little information to really form a viable opinion - especially Ann

Landers.

Carol

[Guest guest]

Stark previously wrote: " It's easier to blame the person and call

them an addict when the doctors can't figure out what is wrong or

don't believe there is

anything wrong. "

Stark you are right. We cannot analyze this man's situation with

the limited information provided in an edited letter from his wife.

I didn't mean to be caustic about his situation. Afterall, those

who have been members on this list for some time know that I didn't

get adequate and appropriate pain management until 2 years ago

after being abused by doctors who told me I'd get addicted if they

gave me anything stronger than Motrin. Believe me, I do understand

and sympathize with the plight of the chronic pain patient who

cannot find anyone who will help with the unrelenting pain. For

years I heard the same thing over and over: " You can't possibly be

in as much pain as you state because you are too nice (behavior), "

or " It's all in your head. " Been there, done that.

When a patient presents with problems in more than two body systems

protocol tells doctors to look for a psychological cause instead of

a physical cause. This protocol is ridiculously old-fashioned

medicine, but it is nevertheless a medical myth that is accepted by

most doctors. In my own case, suffering from Reactive Arthritis

which attacks several body systems at the same time (eyes, tendons,

joints, muscles, gastro, etc.) I got the above treatment all the

time. For me it was a terrible and frustrating long journey to

find one doctor that would help manage my pain with any kind of

pain-relieving medications.

I do hope this gentleman will be able to find the help he needs.

However, I still believe it is wrong to go to multiple doctors

seeking multiple prescriptions and not inform those doctors that

you are being " treated " by someone else. It is the secretive

behavior that is at issue.

Ray

[Guest guest]

Ray:

I believe you are right about the secretive behavior

being wrong but do we know for certain that is

actually what happened? Did the wife go with him to

each doctor so that she KNOWS FOR SURE that is what he

was doing? Unfortuately with the info in the letter we

have absolutely no idea of all the facts. I don't

believe Ann Landers had all the facts either. That is

what I pointed out in my letter to Ann Landers.

Tina

--- Ray in Virginia wrote:

> However, I still believe it is wrong to go to

> multiple doctors

> seeking multiple prescriptions and not inform those

> doctors that

> you are being " treated " by someone else. It is the

> secretive

> behavior that is at issue.

> Ray

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

As I said in my previous post, we have a great lack of information

on this case and probably shouldn't be trying to judge the man, his

wife, or even Ann Landers. Suggesting that the writer of the Ann

Landers column should also seek greater information before making a

blanket statement about addiction is important. Communicating to

A.L. about chronic pain and the problems we have getting

appropriate treatment are wise and needed. My statement about the

man's secretive behavior is based on what his wife said...which

obviously informs us very little. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we

could write a small paragraph that contained all the wisdom and

knowledge both patients and others need about chronic pain and its

treatment. Sadly, even a long letter wouldn't be enough.

Ray

[Guest guest]

I fully understand what you are saying here, Ray.

Until three years ago I had nothing at all

except for the very occasional scrip for Vicodin

which I would hoard for when things got bad

enough for me to consider taking them. Three

years ago I got the Celebrex, of which I take the

maximum dose. Each time I saw my internist or my

neuro I would ask to be referred to a pain mgmt

specialist. Nothing happened until my internist

actually saw me in the middle of a HCV flare / 5

day headache.

I had given my Drs until 15 March to do something

constructive. If I had not been referred to one

& was not satisfied with my treatment, I was

planning to do one of two things: either what

this man evidently did & find multiple Drs who

would write pain scrips, or suicide. I was just

that desperate. Would I have been ethically &

morally correct to run a con on a few MDs? Or

kill myself? Of course not. I would have done

it anyway. Pain does that to people...

If all I was doing all that time was

drug-seeking, I needn't have bothered. I could

have gotten anything from Valium to heroin 'on

the street' any time with a single phone call.

I am currently very happy with my pain mgmt Dr.

This is only based on one visit. But he stopped

the intake interview several times to assure me

that my pain would be treated & wrote out the

Oxycontin scrip without even a blink. He

understood how frustrated I was after living with

this to one extent or another for 26 years & how

frightened I was that I would be patted on the

head & sent home with another short-term scrip a

like an whiney child.

Now it is a matter of getting my various Drs to

communicate with each other so that I can get

everything adjusted. Some of my other meds may

have to change to accommodate the pain meds. I

may have to give up the memory med because of the

side effects. I would miss it - well, probably

not, as I wouldn't remember - but I would far

rather walk out into the yard undressed or piss

on the furniture again than hurt like I know I

will hurt without the pain meds.

Aubergine

AOL IM: ShadoCrone

MSN MS: Shadow_Crone

YM: shadowcrone

ICQ#: 11443880

Wildly Insightful & Talented Crone with a Harley

-----Original Message-----

[snip]

I do hope this gentleman will be able to find the

help he needs.

However, I still believe it is wrong to go to

multiple doctors

seeking multiple prescriptions and not inform

those doctors that

you are being " treated " by someone else. It is

the secretive

behavior that is at issue.

Ray

---

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[Guest guest]

I wanted to share what I wrote to Ann Landers, should anyone want to peruse

it. : )

This is not my usual writing style, but from reading her and Abby's columns

as a kid with my Grandmother, I know what they like to see in reader's

comments- lots of exclamation points and certain ditto-head phrases like

" missed the boat " , and other antiquated forms of speech. LOL.

Robbie in FL, moderator chronic_pain.

AS, RS (ReA), FMS, CFS

feralelf@...

Regarding March 8, 2002

You missed the boat on your comments to " Wife of an Addict in land " !

While her husband may very well have an addiction problem, he also may very

well be still suffering pain !

Surgery doesn't always eliminate pain, and in some cases can make it worse;

a lot worse !

The bottom line is that the best thing for both of these people would be to

see a counselor, preferably at an accredited pain management center.

There's no way to know what's going on with this man without a full

assessment by a counselor !

This man may very well still be in pain. The numbers of people given pain

medicines post surgery do not reflect addiction as being a common thing. In

fact it's quite rare !

As to your statement about " some of these medicines are more addictive than

heroin " , I suggest you do some research into chronic pain management. The

numbers don¹t reflect that, either. Less than 1% of people treated for

chronic or post-surgical pain will become addicted to the pain medicines

they are prescribed for legitimate pain.

These drugs are only more addictive to thrill-seekers- not to people in pain

!

I myself have been in managed pain care, and on opiods, since 1998, with no

ill effects. In that time, I have voluntarily gone off them, to get my

tolerance back down.

I never got withdrawals. I never ³craved² them. I never showed one sign of

addiction or discomfort ! Withdrawal does NOT usually happen with people

like me; people in pain, who use pain medicines legitimately.

I beg you Ann, please inform your readers that not all painkillers are bad.

For some people, like me, they're lifesavers ! They allow me to have a life.

Before I got into pain care I was wheelchair bound and bedridden . Now I¹m

a very productive member of society!

Robbie D. Peddycoart Moderator of Chronic Pain Groups, an online counseling

and support network..

[Guest guest]

This was great! Thank you for doing it.

Jami

Robbie Peddycoart wrote:

>I wanted to share what I wrote to Ann Landers, should anyone want to peruse

>it. : )

>

>This is not my usual writing style, but from reading her and Abby's columns

>as a kid with my Grandmother, I know what they like to see in reader's

>comments- lots of exclamation points and certain ditto-head phrases like

> " missed the boat " , and other antiquated forms of speech. LOL.

>

>

>Robbie in FL, moderator chronic_pain.

>

--

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[Guest guest]

Hi Ray:

I've been luckier than most pain patients in that I haven't been faced with

" it's all in your head. " Actually that isn't quite true. The first year I got

that all the time. However thru much perseverence I eventually wound up with

diagnosis. What I have faced is the wonderful saying. " Learn to live with it. " I

just love that phrase. Many years ago I was seeing an orthopod. Very nice man.

And then one day he turned into a jerk. I called him on his attitude. He

explained it this way. He went to medical school so he could help people. Make

the sick all better. Well, some patients will never get better, and they're

suffering makes them come back again and again. This of course makes the doctor

face up to the fact that he isn't omnipotent and that attacks his pride. They

don't want to look at their failures as he put it. I don't see it as a failure,

but that's me. So they get frustrated and take it out on the patient by blaming

them for not getting better.Beleive it or not way back then I did some research

on this and there have been papers written on this subject.There are many family

drs who won't even take on a patient if they suffer chronic intractable pain.

Now what I am hearing over and over again, is that people with numerous health

problems are being shunned by doctors. You treat one problem and it causes

another problem to act up. Doctors have to spend too much time with these

patients and time is money. Since my heart attack I am falling into the latter

category PLUS I take opiods.

Marsha

[Guest guest]

Marsha,

I was dropped by my internist because she told me my case was too

complicated and she could do nothing to help me. When I first started going

to her, I was already a " complicated case " . She had told me she would

coordinate my records and my care and that she would treat problems other

than my pain problems which were being managed by my pain doctor. I didn't

need to see her for about six months and when I went back, she informed me

that she would no longer treat me, that she had " warned " me before that she

would no longer be my physician which she did no such thing. I heard

through a nurse who is employed at one of the doctor's offices affiliated

with that hospital as she is that many of the groups were pressuring their

doctors to get rid of their " higher risk " , " time intensive " patients, which

obviously would have been me. She did let me have a copy of all of my

records which was very helpful since I had had most of my records from

different facilities sent to her. Little did I know, that probably made my

profile look worse to " the group " . This is the second time I've been dumped

by an internist. Right now, I'm seeing my gyn, endocrinologist and my pain

doctor but my pain doctor seems to be getting edgy about my lack of an

internist although he knows what happened. As I'm sure you know, it's so

tiring to find another doctor.

Elis

>

>Reply-To: chronic_pain

>To: <chronic_pain >

>Subject: Re: Ann Landers Column/

>Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:22:49 -0500

>

>Hi Ray:

>I've been luckier than most pain patients in that I haven't been faced with

> " it's all in your head. " Actually that isn't quite true. The first year I

>got that all the time. However thru much perseverence I eventually wound up

>with diagnosis. What I have faced is the wonderful saying. " Learn to live

>with it. " I just love that phrase. Many years ago I was seeing an orthopod.

>Very nice man. And then one day he turned into a jerk. I called him on his

>attitude. He explained it this way. He went to medical school so he could

>help people. Make the sick all better. Well, some patients will never get

>better, and they're suffering makes them come back again and again. This of

>course makes the doctor face up to the fact that he isn't omnipotent and

>that attacks his pride. They don't want to look at their failures as he put

>it. I don't see it as a failure, but that's me. So they get frustrated and

>take it out on the patient by blaming them for not getting better.Beleive

>it or not way back then I did some research on this and there have been

>papers written on this subject.There are many family drs who won't even

>take on a patient if they suffer chronic intractable pain. Now what I am

>hearing over and over again, is that people with numerous health problems

>are being shunned by doctors. You treat one problem and it causes another

>problem to act up. Doctors have to spend too much time with these patients

>and time is money. Since my heart attack I am falling into the latter

>category PLUS I take opiods.

>Marsha

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Elis:

Seriously why do you NEED to see an internist to begin with? My current pc

is an internist and I've been seeing him for about 9 - 10 years over time

he has built me up to the point now where I am currently taking 19 different

medications on a daily basis, over 40 pills a day and I still am nowhere

close to getting any adequate pain relief from him. As I said in an earlier

message I am going to be dropping him soon.

From what I am seeing is that for the most part internists like to treat

everything but pain by medicating or by overmedicating it in my case, for

some reason they have this thing about not believing in pain? Why would a

normal general doctor or family doctor not be a good substitute for an

internist?

Re: Ann Landers Column/

> Marsha,

> I was dropped by my internist because she told me my case was too

> complicated and she could do nothing to help me. When I first started

going

> to her, I was already a " complicated case " . She had told me she would

> coordinate my records and my care and that she would treat problems other

> than my pain problems which were being managed by my pain doctor. I

didn't

> need to see her for about six months and when I went back, she informed me

> that she would no longer treat me, that she had " warned " me before that

she

> would no longer be my physician which she did no such thing. I heard

> through a nurse who is employed at one of the doctor's offices affiliated

> with that hospital as she is that many of the groups were pressuring their

> doctors to get rid of their " higher risk " , " time intensive " patients,

which

> obviously would have been me. She did let me have a copy of all of my

> records which was very helpful since I had had most of my records from

> different facilities sent to her. Little did I know, that probably made

my

> profile look worse to " the group " . This is the second time I've been

dumped

> by an internist. Right now, I'm seeing my gyn, endocrinologist and my

pain

> doctor but my pain doctor seems to be getting edgy about my lack of an

> internist although he knows what happened. As I'm sure you know, it's so

> tiring to find another doctor.

> Elis