Re: Health Issues Rebuttal (Long)

[Guest guest]

[Rhonda's brother]

> But I hope you do understand there is

> no fountain of youth,or silver bullet, and that eating

> God's intended foods will not guarantee or exempt you

> from the possibly of experiencing serious health

> issues. To believe that is to be living in a state of

> denial.

>

> [Rhonda]

> So, I can understand much of his thinking, but sometimes it reeks of

> just a little too *mainstream medicine indoctrination*.

>

> Anyone have any thoughts on all of this?

>

> Rhonda

I wouldn't phrase it as strongly as said brother, but I don't think it

is possible to avoid all health issues through proper diet. What

about, oh, malaria? Or heck, car accidents and chemical exposures.

Good nutrition can greatly increase the resilience and self-healing

ability of the body in response to external factors, but it ain't

gonna do everything. What, specifically, do you feel is too

" mainstream " about his understanding? Perhaps you have in mind a more

specific set of health problems than I am thinking of.

A related issue is blame--if you believe you have The Method for

Preventing Illness, sometimes it is easy to fall into a pattern of

faulting those who suffer illness for not following said Method. I,

personally, feel this is counterproductive, and a nursing student

might feel similarly.

--

Persi M. Mon

superfruit@...

---------------------------------

" A 5-year-old could understand this! Fetch me a 5-year-old! "

[Guest guest]

> I wouldn't phrase it as strongly as said brother, but I don't think

it

> is possible to avoid all health issues through proper diet. What

> about, oh, malaria? Or heck, car accidents and chemical exposures.

> Good nutrition can greatly increase the resilience and self-healing

> ability of the body in response to external factors, but it ain't

> gonna do everything. What, specifically, do you feel is too

> " mainstream " about his understanding? Perhaps you have in mind a

more

> specific set of health problems than I am thinking of.

Actually, most all of the debating started with cholesterol, what

with the ongoing saga of the statin drugs being taken off the

market. He is on statins himself and considers it life saving -

saying that all the oatmeal in the world wouldn't bring down his

cholesterol. I don't know his numbers. I just know his general

attitude of taking drugs to cover up the symptoms - or *whatever* the

doctor orders. Maybe he really does need statins, I don't know. I

just know that his overall view is to do as the doctors order because

they are the experts. He isn't into thinking outside the box. As for

avoiding all health issues, I agree with him. But I feel he is very

condescending on my view of nutrition to at the least help the cause,

instead believing only in what all the that medical sciences have to

offer in drugs for whatever ails you.

>

> A related issue is blame--if you believe you have The Method for

> Preventing Illness, sometimes it is easy to fall into a pattern of

> faulting those who suffer illness for not following said Method. I,

> personally, feel this is counterproductive, and a nursing student

> might feel similarly.

Agreed on that point too! As my mom says, whatever he believes is

right and it's not productive to argue with him. Maybe I should just

avoid sending him the family nutrition emails that I send the rest of

the family. And maybe I *should* have a more open mind to medical

science since one day, I too may need their expertise.

Rhonda

[Guest guest]

Well it is the mainstream belief system. This is what a lot of people

believe. There is not much point in arguing. He has chosen his point of

view and it might well work out for him. I have a friend like this. Any

information about nutritional approaches she dismisses out of hand. But if

there is a drug therapy she is all for it. Sad to say her health is awful

and deteriorating. She is planning two knee replacements in the spring. ANd

for all that, I have a hard time because for all my healthy eating and the

like, I am not such a healthy specimin either. I think you have two

choices. One is to just acknowledge that you have two very different

perspectives and not discuss it. And the other is to really debate it but

in only very specific terms and great detail. You brother might be right

that all the oatmeal in the world wouldnt have brought down his

cholesteral. If you are inclined to you could talk about larger overall

diet modifications. You might talk about him actually trying diet to see

if it works. You might present actually numbers regarding cholesteral and

mortality from heart disease etc. Then he could present his case. You could

try and refute each other. Depending on your interest in research and your

relationship with your brother it could be fun. I think this would only

work if you are talking about real research, data, numbers etc otherwise it

is just philosophy and you will just go around in circles.

Irene

At 04:40 PM 1/11/2005, you wrote:

>So, I can understand much of his thinking, but sometimes it reeks of

>just a little too *mainstream medicine indoctrination*.

>

>Anyone have any thoughts on all of this?

[Guest guest]

> ANd

> for all that, I have a hard time because for all my healthy eating

>and the

> like, I am not such a healthy specimin either.

Just like I'm a bit nervous about sharing with co-workers about

coconut oil being a good aid for losing weight. I've lost 16 lbs

since last Feb 1st and held a 15 lb loss for something like 4 or 5

months. Then the holiday season hit and I typically run out of

willpower to stick to the program when I'm working 10-12 hours a day,

six days a week for 3+ weeks. And wouldn't you know it, I'm up about

4 lbs. (and still consuming the coconut oil). I'll be back with the

program in the next few days, but it'll take about 2 weeks to undue

the holiday damage.

>I think you have two

> choices. One is to just acknowledge that you have two very

>different

> perspectives and not discuss it.

This is probably the best bet.

> And the other is to really debate it but

> in only very specific terms and great detail. Depending on your

>interest in research and your

> relationship with your brother it could be fun.

I really think he's got his work cut out for him with the nursing

school, so probably this is just an annoying distraction to him. He

and I both have our views, but he has all the ammo what with all his

text books. And I have Weston A Price and the like LOL. I really

don't have the inclination to seriously debate with him anyway, as he

will have the last word - cause he's got the education and I don't.

Or at least that's the impression that I'm getting from him. It's

what my mom says too. She wishes he were going into the naturopathic

type of nursing, rather than the allopathic nursing. Ah well. . .

Rhonda

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I don't debate my friend either. I make comments about this or that

from time to time but she always dismisses me and I always drop it. There

is one thing I found though. For years I would mention from time to time

that butter is not bad and margarine is and she always dismissed me. Well,

the last time it came up she said that she already knew because her husband

told her about it. Huh? Then I realized, a while back I forwaded an article

about butter to him at work. He has high cholesterol and loves butter so I

thought he'd be interested. I never heard from him about it and I never

asked. But now I wonder if he read it, was convinced and told her. Now

wouldn't that be funny?

Irene

At 06:32 PM 1/11/2005, you wrote:

> > ANd

> > for all that, I have a hard time because for all my healthy eating

> >and the

> > like, I am not such a healthy specimin either.

>

>Just like I'm a bit nervous about sharing with co-workers about

>coconut oil being a good aid for losing weight. I've lost 16 lbs

>since last Feb 1st and held a 15 lb loss for something like 4 or 5

>months. Then the holiday season hit and I typically run out of

>willpower to stick to the program when I'm working 10-12 hours a day,

>six days a week for 3+ weeks. And wouldn't you know it, I'm up about

>4 lbs. (and still consuming the coconut oil). I'll be back with the

>program in the next few days, but it'll take about 2 weeks to undue

>the holiday damage.

>

> >I think you have two

> > choices. One is to just acknowledge that you have two very

> >different

> > perspectives and not discuss it.

>

>This is probably the best bet.

>

> > And the other is to really debate it but

> > in only very specific terms and great detail. Depending on your

> >interest in research and your

> > relationship with your brother it could be fun.

>

>

>I really think he's got his work cut out for him with the nursing

>school, so probably this is just an annoying distraction to him. He

>and I both have our views, but he has all the ammo what with all his

>text books. And I have Weston A Price and the like LOL. I really

>don't have the inclination to seriously debate with him anyway, as he

>will have the last word - cause he's got the education and I don't.

>Or at least that's the impression that I'm getting from him. It's

>what my mom says too. She wishes he were going into the naturopathic

>type of nursing, rather than the allopathic nursing. Ah well. . .

>

>Rhonda

>

>

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

" A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. " (ce J.

)

Sometimes, people are just so invested in a certain framework or point of view,

that when you present them with ideas that are contrary to that framework, they

literally cannot and do not hear it. Or as Lakoff says, " When the facts

don't fit the frame, the facts bounce off. "

Christie

[Guest guest]

> " A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. "

(ce J. )

>

> Sometimes, people are just so invested in a certain framework or

point of view, that when you present them with ideas that are

contrary to that framework, they literally cannot and do not hear it.

Or as Lakoff says, " When the facts don't fit the frame, the

facts bounce off. "

>

> Christie

And

" When the student is ready the teacher appears "

Maybe someday my brother will be ready, who knows

Rhonda

[Guest guest]

>>>Sometimes, people are just so invested in a certain framework or point of

view, that when you present them with ideas that are contrary to that framework,

they literally cannot and do not hear it. Or as Lakoff says, " When the

facts don't fit the frame, the facts bounce off. " <<<

And for some, they're just not ready to hear it yet. It's not until their

circumstances change, or they hear something from what they consider a more

reputable source, that it starts to sink in.

Cheers,

Tas'.

" Give it to us raw and wrrrrrrrrriggling " - Smeagol, LOTR.

[Guest guest]

>> " When the student is ready the teacher appears " <<

I absolutely agree with this also.

I'll tell you, we have a family with a lot of alcoholics in it. I got sober

in 1983, and a family member asked me to talk to another family member who

was in the throes of alcoholism and it was bad... jail, life in ruins,

everything. Everyone in the family was on this guy's back morning, noon, and

night. I said sure, I'll talk to him. I walked up to him and said " If you

ever want to go to an AA meeting, let me know, I'll take you. " And walked

away.

Three years later he called.

Christie

[Guest guest]

Ah alas, Christie, you have met my grandmother!

Catz

> " A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. " (ce

> J. )

>

> Sometimes, people are just so invested in a certain framework or point of

> view, that when you present them with ideas that are contrary to that

> framework, they literally cannot and do not hear it. Or as Lakoff

> says, " When the facts don't fit the frame, the facts bounce off. "

>

> Christie

[Guest guest]

Rhonda-

>I have a brother who is 50 yrs old and is in nursing school. He is

>becoming very much indoctrinated by *the system* I love him dearly,

>but we butt heads when it comes to nutrition and health.

Unfortunately, I don't think there *is* a rational magic bullet that will

help you convince him. People don't make decisions on exclusively rational

bases -- far from it, in fact. One consequence is that it almost always

takes them a long time to abandon any conviction that's significant or

deeply held, and even when made, the change often takes place

gradually. (This is probably an evolutionary adaptation to keep people

from adopting harmful fads too rapidly, but when the entire world's been

derailed by a harmful fad (so to speak) it generates equal resistance in

the other direction.) And one of the root factors underlying the kinds of

decisions people make seems to be personality type. Some people seem to

have a natural bias towards authority, for example, and regardless of their

functional intelligence, this bias poses *enormous* problems when trying to

argue against medical and dietary authority. What it amounts to,

basically, is that those people *know* you're wrong no matter how plausible

your argument sounds because authority has said so and therefore if your

argument sounds plausible it's just because they're not qualified to

evaluate it.

What all this means, I'm afraid, is that Christie's experience with her

alcoholic relative generalizes strongly to health and diet. All you can

really do is say " look, when you're tired of your ill health and the

so-called consequences of aging, come talk to me and I'll help you

out " . The sad thing is that a lot of people won't ever come talk to

you. It's tragic and heart-breaking, but there's often no way around

it. You've just got to accept that in people won't change no matter what

you say until *they're* ready to change, and while that readiness arises

under different conditions with different people, some people won't ever be

ready no matter what happens to them.

-

[Guest guest]

Pratick-

>There is no point seeking out and eating organic, grass-fed, pastured,

>whatever, meats

>and milk when at the same time you are stressed out at work, have family

>or relationship

>troubles, bad mattresses to sleep on, un-ergonomical workstation and

>chairs, and so on.

While I agree that there diet isn't the only factor underlying health (or

lack thereof) eating SAD will massively magnify the ill effects of stress,

family and relationship troubles and so on.

-

[Guest guest]

Rhonda,

I'd suggest the book Genetic Nutritioneering by S. Bland Ph.D. to

your brother. The research is from the human genome project, which didn't

set right with me at first but should with him. Can't find the exact % right

now but its somewhere around 70% of our genes that can be adjusted by

lifestyle choices. There is recognition of biochemical individuality by

author. From the books I've read on BI and the better known metabolic typing

researchers, the cousin is on a diet that may be different than her family's

but it isn't right for her if she has the health conditions she has. NT, low

carb, gluten maybe casein free, or diabetes diet in Harold J. Kristal's, The

Nutrition Solution my guess. The diet in Genetic Nutritioneering I don't

agree with. Your brother should be able to get at least headed in that

direction from Genetic Nutritioneering. There is some comearound going on

upstairs as it is being realized that at least some people need and do

better with saturated fat.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: fourume2003 [mailto:mdrgnolan@...]

>

> [Quoting her brother]:

>

> Joan is an example of someone who had done her best to

> maintain her health thru cautious living. You could say she

> is the Queen of organic holistic life styles. She is

> extremely careful about everything she eats, raising much of

> her own food on their land. When she buys food it has to be

> organic. She is about 5.5 ft and weighs maybe 115-120 lbs. I

> admire her determination and effort when it comes to healthy

> living. However, for all of her discipline, she is not at all

> healthy.

>

> I spoke to Joan 2 days ago. Her blood pressure is

> 168/92 which has her upset because she has done everything

> right to prevent this condition. She exercises, eats like a

> bird and only organic. She has also had 2 surgeries (female

> issues) and a hysterectomy. Several years ago she was

> diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome.

>

> Joan is doing her best to maintain her highest level of

> health. No one should criticize her efforts, discipline and

> conviction.

>

> After talking with her, unfortunately, what she doesn't get

> is her family genetic pool. Her parents had diabetes, cancer,

> asthma, and the list goes on and on. All of Joan's sisters

> are experiencing varying degrees of declining health similar

> the their parents.

Since no one has pointed out the obvious problem with this argument, I guess

I'll delurk. Many people assume that " organic " means nutritious, but

everyone here should know better by now. " Organic " and " holistic " don't mean

anything if you're eating organic, holistic junk. Nor do efforts,

discipline, and conviction if the end result is strict adherence to a

destructive diet.

He said absolutely nothing about what she eats other than that the labels

have a few buzzwords on them. From her symptoms, I can only assume that it's

not wholesome foods like meat, eggs, and full-fat dairy products. I wouldn't

be surprised if there were an unhealthy dose of soy products in there, too.

If my assumptions are correct, then her health problems are an argument for,

not against, the importance of diet in maintaining health. Genetic factors

(usually) don't condemn anyone to bad health; what they do is magnify the

deleterious effects of an unhealthful lifestyle, and a healthful lifestyle,

by far the most important component of which is a nutritious diet, can go a

long way towards overcoming all but the most severe genetic disadvantages.

For example, if you don't eat high-carbohydrate foods, then a disposition to

diabetes doesn't matter. If you don't eat gluten, gluten intolerance doesn't

matter.

[Guest guest]

> Actually, most all of the debating started with cholesterol, what

> with the ongoing saga of the statin drugs being taken off the

> market. He is on statins himself and considers it life saving -

> saying that all the oatmeal in the world wouldn't bring down his

> cholesterol. I don't know his numbers. I just know his general

> attitude of taking drugs to cover up the symptoms - or *whatever* the

> doctor orders. Maybe he really does need statins, I don't know. I

> just know that his overall view is to do as the doctors order because

> they are the experts. He isn't into thinking outside the box.

> Rhonda

Google health news the other day had an article saying they're now looking

at levels of C -reactive protein in the blood as the better or maybe real

indicator to cholesterol and they're going to be developing new drugs for

that. My oldest daughter is an R.N. She has told doctors no for her own

health care.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

-

I thought this was sufficiently obvious it didn't need stating, but you're

right, it did.

>Since no one has pointed out the obvious problem with this argument, I guess

>I'll delurk. Many people assume that " organic " means nutritious, but

>everyone here should know better by now. " Organic " and " holistic " don't mean

>anything if you're eating organic, holistic junk. Nor do efforts,

>discipline, and conviction if the end result is strict adherence to a

>destructive diet.

>

>He said absolutely nothing about what she eats other than that the labels

>have a few buzzwords on them. From her symptoms, I can only assume that it's

>not wholesome foods like meat, eggs, and full-fat dairy products. I wouldn't

>be surprised if there were an unhealthy dose of soy products in there, too.

-

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

here's a real instance... I do not have this email from that

you quoted from. Anyone else?

Catz

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:11:03 -0500, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

> I thought this was sufficiently obvious it didn't need stating, but you're

> right, it did.

>

> >Since no one has pointed out the obvious problem with this argument, I

> guess

> >I'll delurk. Many people assume that " organic " means nutritious, but

> >everyone here should know better by now. " Organic " and " holistic " don't

> mean

> >anything if you're eating organic, holistic junk. Nor do efforts,

> >discipline, and conviction if the end result is strict adherence to a

> >destructive diet.

> >

> >He said absolutely nothing about what she eats other than that the labels

> >have a few buzzwords on them. From her symptoms, I can only assume that

> it's

> >not wholesome foods like meat, eggs, and full-fat dairy products. I

> wouldn't

> >be surprised if there were an unhealthy dose of soy products in there, too.

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

>> After talking with her, unfortunately, what she doesn't get

>> is her family genetic pool. Her parents had diabetes, cancer,

>> asthma, and the list goes on and on. All of Joan's sisters

>> are experiencing varying degrees of declining health similar

>> the their parents.

Actually if she does ENOUGH research she might find

out what is running in her family. I tend to agree with the

geneticists who say that any disease that is *common* can't

be wholly genetic, because the gene would be wiped out (even

if the disease is mainly in older folks). Families with lots of

T1 diabetes and cancer often have the gene for gluten and/or

casein intolerance, for starters.

I've been very aggressive in finding a " cure " for arthritis

after seeing how my sister and Mom are ending up.

I suppose others might think I'm a nutcase and making

too much of a deal about food (as more than one

relative has told me!) but darn it, my fingers don't hurt

anymore, and my knees are almost back to normal.

Amazingly, some of the folks who thought I

was a nutcase have " discovered " NT on their

own, now they are lecturing ME like they figure

I never heard of it. Oh well!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hmmm...just showed up.

Catz

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:11:51 -0800, Berg <bberg@...> wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

>

> >I have a brother who is 50 yrs old and is in nursing school. He is

> >becoming very much indoctrinated by *the system* I love him dearly,

> >but we butt heads when it comes to nutrition and health.

>Rhonda

> Unfortunately, I don't think there *is* a rational magic bullet that will

> help you convince him. .....

> -

It may be that siblings are the least convincing people on the

planet, for emotional reasons. I'm pretty sure my sister resists

every single suggestion I make just because it's coming from me.

It's very frustrating, but I've pretty much learned to shut up about

what I think, and hope maybe she'll hear it somewhere else.

For myself, I resisted pro-meat-and-fat thinking for a long time

until a friend sent me The Cholesterol Myths. That was the

piece of the puzzle I needed.

Aven

[Guest guest]

> There is no point seeking out and eating organic, grass-fed, pastured,

whatever, meats

> and milk when at the same time you are stressed out at work, have family or

relationship

> troubles, bad mattresses to sleep on, un-ergonomical workstation and

chairs, and so on.

> -Pratick

Oh please don't say there's NO point! After all, we can't make

everything better at once. I agree that you should address those

other issues, but a good diet certainly can't hurt while you're

working on the other stuff. Stress and family problems, for

instance, may be difficult, impossible, or take a LONG time to

fix.

Aven

[Guest guest]

> Amazingly, some of the folks who thought I

> was a nutcase have " discovered " NT on their

> own, now they are lecturing ME like they figure

> I never heard of it. Oh well!

Ha! I caught my mom *red-handed* popping CLO capsules the other day!

B.

/family nutcase

//it was Safeway brand, but still...

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Idol [mailto:Idol@...]

>

> I thought this was sufficiently obvious it didn't need

> stating, but you're right, it did.

If only the obvious really were, eh?

> >Since no one has pointed out the obvious problem with this

> argument, I

> >guess I'll delurk. Many people assume that " organic " means

> nutritious,

> >but everyone here should know better by now. " Organic " and

> " holistic "

> >don't mean anything if you're eating organic, holistic junk. Nor do

> >efforts, discipline, and conviction if the end result is strict

> >adherence to a destructive diet.

[Guest guest]

> Ha! I caught my mom *red-handed* popping CLO capsules the other day!

> B.

I prefer free-range penguin eggs a source of beneficial fats. Also, penguin

eggs yolks are not artificially colored.

Darrell

[Guest guest]

> Hey ,

> here's a real instance... I do not have this email from that

> you quoted from. Anyone else?

> Catz

>

I sent a response today to 's question about freezing sweet potatoes

that never made it onto my computer.

Ron