Re: Morning workout best?

[Guest guest]

s talks about workout timing also in " Mastering Leptin. "

For me it depends on the intensity of the workout and how " running

on empty " I am. If I do a very intense workout after an 11 hour

fast, and my food was clean the night before, I'll crash my blood

sugar. But if I dial down the intensity I won't.

My personal peak time is 4-5 pm for heavy strength work and the

morning is best for medium-intensity cardio. This is on a sleep/eat

schedule of bed at 10, breakfast 7, lunch 12:30, dinner 6.

Just in listening to people talk it seems like an individual thing.

Not just for people whose adrenals are exhausted - I hear a lot more

people with lots of muscle feeling better later in the day, and the

runner types feeling great first thing in the morning.

On the Paleo site, about athletics, it talks about a current hunter-

gatherer society in Australia with a science observer from the US.

They ran all day on a hunt on just water and he crashed without his

breakfast and they laughed at him. Awww. He speculates that their

fuel system for getting it from liver/stored fats was much better

adapted than his since he was a 3-meal a day guy and much more used

to operating on that schedule.

Connie

> Any thoughts? I've found that early workouts wreak havoc on my

blood

> sugar, but it could be that I should've started them appreciably

earlier

> than I did. Certainly it would be more convenient to place

workouts at one

> end of the day or the other rather than splitting the day in two

as I do

> now. Was hunting and gathering actually a morning activity? I

know some

> hunting is best done early, but isn't some done later?

>

>

>

> -

>

[Guest guest]

I tend to believe that many things are somewhat variable based on individual

physiology AND psychology. I usually adopt an " ergonomic " attitude about timing

things, meaning that I have a bias toward going with the flow rather than trying

to swim upstream. <G>

However, it can be hard to figure out what things are harmful habits/addictions,

and what things are just your own unique, personal biochemistry and preferences.

I try not to hold too hard onto my preconceived notions, but also not throw out

perfectly good, functioning habits just because someone says they are less than

optimal.

As to my own personal experience with eating, sleeping, working out,and time of

day patterns - I lived my whole life as a night owl. I have no idea what

happened back when I switched to Atkins a little over two years ago, but from

the very first day, I started waking with the sun (or slightly before), loaded

with energy and raring to go. I would get sleepy around 9 PM and was usually

sound asleep by 10 or even earlier. This was a complete turnaround for me. My

mom says even as an infant I was a night owl.

This summer, my dog Raven was diagnosed with osteosarcoma and had her leg

amputated. She developed aspiration pneumonia and ended up being hospitalized

for six days. During that time I had virtually no sleep at all, hurt my back

(which is already bad) by sitting on the hard floor with her, with no support at

my back, and while I did my best to eat well, and stayed within the Atkins plan,

was eating restaurant food instead of my own NT homecooking. Not to mention

being in horrible stress.

Since that week, which was back in JUNE, my sleep patterns have been in the

toilet. I have reverted to the night owl schedule again, being unable to get to

sleep early and waking up late. Some mornings I feel pretty energetic, and

others I have to push myself to just get the dogs out for a walk.

During this entire period - the two years after starting Atkins, the period

after Raven got sick - I have done my workouts at different times of the day.

Sometimes I did it at certain times due to unavoidable scheduling issues, but

usually I did it in response to my own inner feeling of when I wanted to work

out. What I learned is this:

Morning workouts are the best. I have more energy on those days, I feel brighter

and sunnier, and I lose more weight.

Working out at my late afternoon " slump " time (4 pm or so) is not pleasant to

experience as I feel slow and everything seems harder, but actually appears to

benefit me in terms of mental clarity, sleeping well that night, and weight

loss. So this is the second best time.

Working out in the evening, either before dinner or before bed ... and by

working out I mean weight lifting, I'll get to other forms of exercise in a

minute .... kills me. It actually seems to RETARD weight loss, makes me

irritable, and just sucks. It's so bad that I actually will miss a workout

rather than do it at night.

Conversely, what I have found is that a walk before dinner, after dinner, or a

while before bedtime does me a world of good. Ditto other forms of brisk

exercise like swimming, yoga, gardening, housework, sorting the recycling, etc.

These seems to be of benefit mentally and physically no matter what time of day

I do them. Not so weight lifting.

As to the morning blood sugar crash - I didn't have good results with the leptin

program, so no longer follow it, but I don't eat after dinner (that was true

before I tried the leptin program, too). So in the morning I have usually gone

at least 12 hours without eating anything. But I do not have a blood sugar crash

after I work out in the morning on an empty stomach. I always schedule my

workout so I have twenty minutes or so before my scheduled breakfast, because I

want to wait until I feel hungry to eat. Back when I was a " lark, " that would

mean I'd get up at 5:30 or so, do 5-15 minutes of yoga, walk the dogs, work out

if it was a weight lifting morning, then feed them. Then I'd have breakfast

around 6:15. Now I'm on my " night owl " schedule, I get up at 8:30, feeling like

crap. I do yoga, take out the dogs, and by then usually feel semi-decent. I do

my workout if it's a weight lifting day, feed the dogs, and then eat at about

9:15.

Of course, I only work out for 10 minutes - my guess is you work out longer than

that. On non-weight-lifting mornings I'd do the extra 10 minutes of yoga, or

sometimes take the dogs on a longer walk.

I remember back when I started on Atkins and working out, if I didn't eat a

little something before my workout I would get incredibly nauseated. In fact,

even before Atkins, if I went to yoga class without eating something light, I'd

get sick to my stomach. That's not true at all anymore. I never feel sick or

have blood sugar crashes after working out on an empty stomach.

I don't know why this is for sure, but this is my guess:

I don't eat in response to hunger cues. I eat on a fixed schedule, I eat three

meals plus one snack a day, I never eat after dinner, I never ever miss a meal,

and I NEVER, I mean NEVER, miss breakfast. I have not missed a single meal other

than once when I had food poisoning in the 28+ months I've been doing Atkins.

So my blood sugar is extremely stable now, and as long as I eat at the expected

time, I have no problems with blood sugar " crashes " related to activity or lack

thereof. My blood sugar is tied to my eating schedule, and as long as I stick to

that, it's stable. When I have been unable to eat on schedule, in other words,

had a meal late, I have definitely experienced some " crashing. " So my metabolic

disorder is being managed but not cured by the way I eat and exercise, and by

the 130 or so pounds I've lost.

I had hoped the leptin plan would be the next step in actually healing my

metabolism, but after giving it a two month trial, it just didn't work for me. I

didn't lose weight and I was miserable. So I went back to my old eating

schedule, and did start losing weight again, albeit at a snail's pace of half to

one pound a month. (Trying to speed that up is what motivated me to try the

" Mastering Leptin " program.)

I really don't know if there is a " one size fits all " workout or eating schedule

or plan. I don't think there is. I do think that if something works for someone

and appeals to you, it's worth a try, but trying is the only way to find out if

it works FOR YOU. You might be the exception to the rule, or you might find out

the rule applies to you, but without doing the experiment you won't know.

Christie

[Guest guest]

Christie-

>As to my own personal experience with eating, sleeping, working out,and

>time of day patterns - I lived my whole life as a night owl. I have no

>idea what happened back when I switched to Atkins a little over two years

>ago, but from the very first day, I started waking with the sun (or

>slightly before), loaded with energy and raring to go. I would get sleepy

>around 9 PM and was usually sound asleep by 10 or even earlier. This was a

>complete turnaround for me. My mom says even as an infant I was a night owl.

I've always been a night owl too. When I was a little kid, I stayed up

long after bedtime into the wee hours of the morning reading by the light

coming in under my door from the hallway, though I don't remember whether I

started reading late because I couldn't sleep or I just stayed up because I

wanted to keep reading. Switching to low-carb eating, though, didn't

really affect my sleep time much. It did enable me to get up somewhat

earlier, and it definitely reduced my tiredness during the day, but that's

about all.

>This summer, my dog Raven was diagnosed with osteosarcoma and had her leg

>amputated. She developed aspiration pneumonia and ended up being

>hospitalized for six days. During that time I had virtually no sleep at

>all, hurt my back (which is already bad) by sitting on the hard floor with

>her, with no support at my back, and while I did my best to eat well, and

>stayed within the Atkins plan, was eating restaurant food instead of my

>own NT homecooking. Not to mention being in horrible stress.

I'm terrible sorry to hear that. Is Raven doing better now?

>Of course, I only work out for 10 minutes - my guess is you work out

>longer than that. On non-weight-lifting mornings I'd do the extra 10

>minutes of yoga, or sometimes take the dogs on a longer walk.

Yeah, quite a bit longer, though I don't know whether that's a good

thing. (I'm sure healthier people with more energy could do my workouts in

a fraction of the time I do them in. Or maybe not that much more quickly;

I really don't know, actually.)

>I don't eat in response to hunger cues. I eat on a fixed schedule, I eat

>three meals plus one snack a day, I never eat after dinner, I never ever

>miss a meal, and I NEVER, I mean NEVER, miss breakfast. I have not missed

>a single meal other than once when I had food poisoning in the 28+ months

>I've been doing Atkins.

>

>So my blood sugar is extremely stable now, and as long as I eat at the

>expected time, I have no problems with blood sugar " crashes " related to

>activity or lack thereof. My blood sugar is tied to my eating schedule,

>and as long as I stick to that, it's stable. When I have been unable to

>eat on schedule, in other words, had a meal late, I have definitely

>experienced some " crashing. " So my metabolic disorder is being managed but

>not cured by the way I eat and exercise, and by the 130 or so pounds I've lost.

Your final conclusion is, I believe, completely correct, but I think you

should consider approaching the problem in a different way: work on

reformulating your program (diet, meal timings, etc.) to improve the

management of your disorder. The reason I eat such a high-fat (and high

sat-fat) diet is exactly that: it enables me to follow hunger cues while

also keeping to productive meal timings. When I have to delay a meal, I

don't crash in anything like the way I used to, and in fact things are

still improving in that department. No, I'm not cured either, but I've

definitely made a lot of progress.

That Chek article on Mercola -- specifically his discussion of the relation

of cortisol rhythm to workout timing -- prompted me to try a new twist on

morning workouts, and so far (though it's really too early to tell) it's a

splendid success.

I have a bright light box (mine is a Bio-Light 10,000 lux box) which I

originally bought a couple years ago to help with my insomnia and to try to

help me get up and going earlier in the day. (I have to laugh -- in a

totally not-mean way! -- to see you call yourself a night-owl for getting

up at 8:30am!) It's supposed to help with cortisol release timing, but

while the light had some positive effects (it cuts down on the amount of

time I sleep) it never really affected my energy levels. Lately I've been

pretty lax about using it, but I've still been sleeping less anyway due to

other improvements in my health.

Have you every tried one of those? It might be exactly what you need to

get back onto your insane, I mean, normal and healthy, schedule of getting

up when smart people are still sleeping, I mean, bright and early.

Anyway, today I fired up the Bio-Light upon rising, basked in its glow for

an hour -- and then worked out. I left it on for the first half of the

workout and then shut it off, but I expect I'll monkey around with that

timing until I find the best possible system. (If I could start working

out even earlier, and thus recover more of the day for other purposes, I'd

be one happy frickin camper, I'll tell you!) So far, I've had no problems

at all with my blood sugar. In fact, as far as hunger goes, I feel like I

usually do at this time -- just starting to get interested in the first

meal of the day. I took some liver out of the freezer to begin defrosting

right after my workout as per usual, but I figured that at the first hint

of trouble I'd just dive into a big mess of tuna salad I have sitting ready

in the fridge just for in case, but it doesn't look like I'll need it. As

soon as I finish this email I'll go cut up the liver and eat it and then

I'll have the rest of my lunch, and unless something bad happens without

any warning whatsoever, I think this new system is a winner.

I used to get up at, say, 8-8:30, ever so slowly wake up and shake out the

sleep, eat at around 11-12, get some work done -- and then have to stop to

work out at around 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6). Then at 5:30 or 6:30 (or 7:30 or

8:30) I'd eat dinner. The whole stinking exercise thing blew a gigantic

hole in the day. If this works out, particularly if I can begin my workout

even closer to rising, I'll be recovering enormous amounts of time, and

it'll be uninterrupted, too. In fact, the benefits seem even more

extensive than that, though I realize I'm getting ever more premature in my

analysis: I feel better and more clear-headed than usual, and I actually

completed my normal squat-based workout a full 18% faster than usual, which

is nothing to sneeze at.

>I had hoped the leptin plan would be the next step in actually healing my

>metabolism, but after giving it a two month trial, it just didn't work for

>me. I didn't lose weight and I was miserable.

What exactly were you doing, if you're interested in getting into it, and

what exactly did you switch back to?

-

[Guest guest]

> analysis: I feel better and more clear-headed than usual, and I

actually

> completed my normal squat-based workout a full 18% faster than

usual, which

> is nothing to sneeze at.

,

You do 200 pistols for a workout? Sick!

B.

[Guest guest]

-

>You do 200 pistols for a workout? Sick!

Why, is that a lot? The way I figure it, if I'm hiking up a mountain, I'm

probably going to be carrying a heavy pack, and I'll unquestionably have to

take more than 200 steps, even though each step probably won't be

equivalent to a full pistol, so it doesn't sound like much to me except for

the time consumption factor. (Yes, it's true I haven't gone hiking in many

years, but I don't intend to live in the city forever, and I'm feeling more

and more nature-deprived.)

Also, I'm not doing real pistols, at least not yet. I've only worked my

way down to 11 " on the bottom, and for hamstring inflexibility reasons I

don't hold my alternate leg up straight out. It kind of dangles at the

side with the foot parallel to the active foot but raised several

inches. And recently I discovered that this positioning of my alternate

leg makes the squat meaningfully easier for some reason -- I tried holding

the off leg just a few inches out front and the squat was much harder. I

decided to continue working down to the ground first, though, and then work

on gradually extending my leg as far as it can go, because I figured that

achieving a full range of motion in the squat was probably the more

important value in the exercise.

Oh, and I'm not doing them all at once! I do them in sets of 10, 5 per

leg. So I do a circuit of 5 squats per leg, then Russian Ballet Leg

Thrusts, then wheel jacknife pushups, then another set of 5 squats per leg,

then rest, then another circuit, until I've completed the workout. Today

it took 1:26, which was a major improvement over my previous best time of

1:45. I actually have no idea how many I could do at once per

leg. 20? 30? I really don't have a clue. I keep meaning to see, but the

OCD part of me doesn't want to risk tiring myself out and not doing a full

workout. Stupid, I know. Monthly or bimonthly max runs on squats (and

other exercises) would probably be a very good progress benchmark. Maybe

later this week I'll finally try it...

-

[Guest guest]

,

Have you seen this article:

http://www.fullkontact.com/a_pistol.html

B.

[Guest guest]

,

I find my workouts are better in the evening. I've seen it argued

both morning and evening are best on hormonal logic, but I think it's

largely an individual thing. When I used to do my workouts before

class at UMass, it would induce major blood sugar lows -- or something

like that -- even with eating afterwards that I'd need coffee for. I

never made a connection between timing, but that doesn't happen to me

now that I do them later.

The Bio-Light is pretty interesting. I definitely need bright lights

when I get up in the morning. I should look into that. Interesting

experiment. Let us know how it continues!

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

[Guest guest]

> and for hamstring

> inflexibility reasons I

> don't hold my alternate leg up straight out.

Yoga, yoga, yoga. Forget about the woo-woo factor. It's just the best

stretch you will ever get. I started back about three weeks ago and my hips

and hams were so locked down I could barely move them. After 4 classes I'm

already halfway to normal.

Plus it's fun. An hour or hour and a half of tranquility amidst the buzz of

daily life.

Gosh. Just realized that this would qualify for poncing behavior?

Ron

[Guest guest]

> Yoga, yoga, yoga. Forget about the woo-woo factor. It's just the best

> stretch you will ever get. I started back about three weeks ago and

my hips

> and hams were so locked down I could barely move them. After 4

classes I'm

> already halfway to normal.

>

> Plus it's fun. An hour or hour and a half of tranquility amidst the

buzz of

> daily life.

>

> Gosh. Just realized that this would qualify for poncing behavior?

Ron,

Not poncing at all! Actually, I tell all my male friends--singles in

particular--to go to yoga classs because that's where all teh hot

chicas hang out, wearing scanty, body-hugging outfits and sweating and

stretching it out. Worse case, a guy gets increased hamstring

flexibility while enjoying a lovely view from the back of the room,

best case, he may meet a girl who allegedly isn't overly interested in

his material status.

B.

[Guest guest]

> I'm terrible sorry to hear that. Is Raven doing better now?

I lost her on Sept. 26. Thank you very much for asking after her. I miss her

horribly. If anyone would like to read about her, her story is here:

http://www.doggedblog.com/doggedblog/raven/

> I have to laugh -- in a

totally not-mean way! -- to see you call yourself a night-owl for getting

up at 8:30am!<

Oh, I agree! I make myself get up and I hate it. I also make myself fall asleep

earlier than I'd like to. Left entirely on my own, I'd probably stay up til 2

and sleep til noon! But I work for a company that's already two hours ahead of

me (I'm in PT, they're in CT), and they got used to me being available early.

Plus in the summer, I like to get the dogs out before it gets hot. So I get up

at 8:30.

> Have you every tried one of those? <

No, but my bedroom is three walls of floor to ceiling windows, no curtains, and

my bed is in the eastern corner of the room, so I get tons and tons of natural

light. I also live in California, so we tend to have more sunshine and more

hours of sunlight than people who live in more " wintery " climes. So I probably

don't need it. On the other hand, I AM whining about sleeping too late so maybe

I'm wrong, LOL!

> I feel better and more clear-headed than usual, and I actually

completed my normal squat-based workout a full 18% faster than usual, which

is nothing to sneeze at. <

No, it's not! That's great. It sounds to me like you've really hit on something.

> What exactly were you doing, if you're interested in getting into it, and

what exactly did you switch back to? <

Basically just the meal timing from Mastering Leptin. I would go at least six

hours between meals, and eat only three meals a day, no snacks, and I went at

least 12 hours after dinner until breakfast. I ate absolutely no snacks,

including beverages other than water, between meals.

The first week I lost three pounds. The second week I gained them back. The

third week I gained a pound. Then I held steady for the next five weeks. I had

some fairly serious problems with hunger (not blood sugar, genuine hunger) off

and on the whole time. I have to say I was really miserable.

Then I went back to my previous pattern, which is breakfast, then around four

hours later lunch, then a small meal at around 4 PM, then dinner around 6:30.

Nothing after dinner except maybe some decaf tea with cream and stevia. Plus I

drink hot tea whenever I want, with cream and some stevia. I started losing

weight again almost immediately, but just at the creeping slow rate of 1/2 to 1

pound a month that I'd been losing before.

I noticed that during the first week of the leptin plan I'd spontaneously

dropped my caloric intake by 20 percent. When I regained the three pounds I lost

that first week, I thought perhaps I'd overdone it, and consciously increased my

calories to just about 5 percent lower than before trying the " Mastering Leptin "

meal timing. Then I gained another pound, and then I stabilized.

I continued to eat the same macronutrient composition throughout this period.

I'm not willing to experiment with more carbs. I eat 30-35 grams of non-fiber

carbs each day. I get around 70 percent calories from fat. I eat no sugar

alcohols or low carb junk food or convenience foods. I get nearly all my carbs

from veggies and from cream, eggs, and cheese. I eat some low glycemic fruits

such as strawberries, blackberries, and melon, but not daily. I tend to gain

weight when I eat fruit every day, even if it's got the same calories and carb

count as the veggies it's replacing.

I am sure I could accelerate my weight loss if I increased my exercise

dramatically and probably also if I cut my calories a lot, although my

experiments with reducing calories have actually not been very productive (or

maybe I should say reductive <G>). But I hate adding in an amount of exercise

that I'm not likely to stick with, because I'm afraid my metabolism will adapt

to the new, higher level of exercise, and if I can't sustain it longterm, I'll

end up worse off than when I started. I'm trying to be realistic. It may be that

after the weight loss I've already had, I just have to accept that the rest of

it will come off very, very slowly.

I know one woman who was doing Atkins, not NT but with a focus on whole foods,

who hit a YEAR LONG plateau before her weight started dropping again. She was

absolutely frantic and tried a million different things, but eventually the

pounds just started coming off again. Perhaps this is a normal pattern for

people with more than a hundred pounds to lose, I honestly don't know. There are

not that many people who have lost this kind of weight while eating " normally "

(ie, not on fasts or special liquid or prepared diets, or after weight loss

surgery), so I don't have a lot of people to talk to about it or get a sense of

how it works from. The truth is, it usually DOESN'T work. I really am not sure

why it has worked for me, and the things that worked for me don't always work

for other people. It's very individualized, I think.

I am certainly open to ideas, but let me just state again I'm not at all willing

to consider adding more carbs. I have gone as high as 50 grams and I definitely

have problems when I go above where I'm at right now. I

Also, I do realize I'm still losing albeit slowly. I'm not saying I am not

willing to just wait it out. I am. But if I could speed it up, I'd like that.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

http://www.doggedblog.com/

[Guest guest]

On 10/9/05, RBJR <rbjr@...> wrote:

> Yoga, yoga, yoga.

....

> Gosh. Just realized that this would qualify for poncing behavior?

hilarious how people think yoga is a feminine thing because it's been

so changed in the last 1% of its history. but changed it has-- i'm

often the only boy there.

it's only poncing if you wear anything labelled 'yoga pant.'

eric

[Guest guest]

On 10/8/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Any thoughts? I've found that early workouts wreak havoc on my blood

> sugar, but it could be that I should've started them appreciably earlier

> than I did. Certainly it would be more convenient to place workouts at one

> end of the day or the other rather than splitting the day in two as I do

> now. Was hunting and gathering actually a morning activity? I know some

> hunting is best done early, but isn't some done later?

My own personal opinion is that it is an individual thing. I read

years ago that morning workouts upon rising were great for fatburning.

I think I learned that from Zane, Mr. Olympia 1977-1979, whose

book on training was the first *book* I ever read on the subject.

Since then I have read numerous opinions/studies as to the best time

to workout and in the end I think it just depends on you.

I for one do *not* like breaking up my day with a workout unless I'm

going to play a sport. Working out at the end of the day just doesn't

work for me long term because the responsibilities and activities of

the day press in and psychologically I just don't want to go,

regardless of whether it is physiologically better for me.

In general, for me, the things that are most important, like reading,

studying, prayer, working out, etc.are best done *before* I begin my

day. Otherwise they have a tendency to get replaced/crowded out by

things that are urgent but not necessarily more important. The old

line about the good being the enemy of the best comes to mind here.

So for me, working out with weights upon rising is ideal. I know

others who think that is crazy. But it works for me and sets a great

tone for the rest of the day. I feel energized and ready to take on

the day. Then if I want to do aerobics or some kind of cardio heading

out to play a sport (like basketball) at lunch is psychologically very

easy for me and keeps the energy levels up for the rest of the day.

I can't wait for the day when working out early in the morning

consists of me rolling out of bed, throwing on some sweats, and going

downstairs to my well equipped home gym.

--

" It is no crime to be ignorant of economics,

which is, after all, a specialized discipline

and one that most people consider to be a

'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible

to have a loud and vociferous opinion on

economic subjects while remaining in this

state of ignorance. "

-- Murray Rothbard

[Guest guest]

> Worse case, a guy gets increased hamstring

> flexibility while enjoying a lovely view from the back of the room,

Yoga here in NC is decidedly asexual. The view from the back of the room

tends to be rather matronly. I can only imagine the joys of taking a yoga

class in Santa .

Ron

[Guest guest]

Over at the CST forums there's a yoga historian who says that a

thousand years ago, the training was 3-fold - meditation, yoga, and

clubs. The clubs built strength for heavy-duty yoga & meditation. The

meditation was built mental cojones to do clubs and yoga. Yoga found

and released tension built up from all the other activities. They all

work with each other. But in the West we love to compartmentalize and

analyze elements. Hence the fascination with isolation exercises and

individual-nutrients and nutrient composition percentages etc.

Connie

> > Yoga, yoga, yoga.

> ...

> > Gosh. Just realized that this would qualify for poncing behavior?

>

> hilarious how people think yoga is a feminine thing because it's been

> so changed in the last 1% of its history. but changed it has-- i'm

> often the only boy there.

>

> it's only poncing if you wear anything labelled 'yoga pant.'

>

> eric

>

[Guest guest]

>> I can only imagine the joys of taking a yoga

class in Santa . <<

Gosh, and I can only imagine the joy of having some asshole in the back of my

yoga class passing judgement on my ass.

Women, whether " matronly " or " hot, " are no more decorative objects to be admired

than men are. We are human beings. This attitude is exactly why it took me years

to start taking yoga, which was frankly the best thing I ever did for my body. I

took yoga for a year or more before I lost an ounce, and if people had had this

attitude in my yoga class, I'd have never stuck with it. I'm really glad the

people I studied with were there for yoga and not the view.

To this day I have not been able to bring myself to join a gym because every

time I go in and tour one, the sideways glances and facial expressions drive me

away. If you think you can hide it, you're wrong. On behalf of the matronly,

fat, flabby, old, out of shape, and otherwise non-Malibu Barbie among us, please

get over it. Don't just stop SAYING it, actually get over it.

Christie

[Guest guest]

On 10/10/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> Over at the CST forums there's a yoga historian who says that a

> thousand years ago, the training was 3-fold - meditation, yoga, and

> clubs. The clubs built strength for heavy-duty yoga & meditation. The

> meditation was built mental cojones to do clubs and yoga. Yoga found

> and released tension built up from all the other activities. They all

> work with each other. But in the West we love to compartmentalize and

> analyze elements. Hence the fascination with isolation exercises and

> individual-nutrients and nutrient composition percentages etc.

what's clubs?

maybe we could put it this way: asana builds the concentration and

awareness necessary for more " advanced " practices like meditation,

while strengthening the body so that it can endure long periods of

sitting still. i think it'd be a mistake to say that meditation was

simply for cojones to perform feats of strength and flexibility-- the

goal was (re-)union with the divine, and asana is simply a step on the

way.

the indians did their fair share of compartmentalizing and analyzing

too, though. each asana with its specific physical, mental and pranic

consequences, X bajillion substages of unfolding of Y layer of

consciousness, etc etc. they fully embraced the mechanistic and

rational, just not to the exclusion of the transrational. a modern

way to put it being maybe that in the same way that you can't explain

pythagorean geometry to someone whose thought hasn't developed beyond

the " concrete operational, " you can't explain transrational truths in

rational terms. but, you can begin to explain the steps toward

getting to them. if that makes any sense.

but of course, in a culture that denies anything spiritual (i.e. yoga

itself), yoga now means asana only, for flat abs and killer glutes.

eric

[Guest guest]

> what's clubs?

Heavy clubs used for physical training. Google " indian clubs "

or " clubbells " (modern version) and you'll see the deal.

> maybe we could put it this way: asana builds the concentration and

> awareness necessary for more " advanced " practices like meditation,

> while strengthening the body so that it can endure long periods of

> sitting still. i think it'd be a mistake to say that meditation

was

> simply for cojones to perform feats of strength and flexibility--

the

> goal was (re-)union with the divine, and asana is simply a step on

the

> way.

Quite so but it also works both ways. Long meditation can be

physically taxing, so you need something to unwind that or build up

to the ability... enter asana. And, the ability to do long

meditation builds the kind of mental endurance that comes in handy

when one attempts certain kinds of physical training for endurance.

Like hundreds of reps. It's a zone for sure. They are all

interlocking ways to get in touch with the divine, and

simultaneously, ways to remove impediments to being in touch. If you

think of weakness, stiffness, and scatter-brainededness

as " impediments " in the sense of being distracting.

Connie

[Guest guest]

I'll second that and raise you. No classes or gyms unless I know in

advance what the other students' motivations are. Pretty much

precludes drop-in places.

Connie

>

> >> I can only imagine the joys of taking a yoga

> class in Santa . <<

>

> Gosh, and I can only imagine the joy of having some asshole in the

back of my yoga class passing judgement on my ass.

>

> Women, whether " matronly " or " hot, " are no more decorative objects

to be admired than men are. We are human beings. This attitude is

exactly why it took me years to start taking yoga, which was frankly

the best thing I ever did for my body. I took yoga for a year or

more before I lost an ounce, and if people had had this attitude in

my yoga class, I'd have never stuck with it. I'm really glad the

people I studied with were there for yoga and not the view.

>

> To this day I have not been able to bring myself to join a gym

because every time I go in and tour one, the sideways glances and

facial expressions drive me away. If you think you can hide it,

you're wrong. On behalf of the matronly, fat, flabby, old, out of

shape, and otherwise non-Malibu Barbie among us, please get over it.

Don't just stop SAYING it, actually get over it.

>

> Christie

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 10/10/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

<snip>

> > maybe we could put it this way: asana builds the concentration and

> > awareness necessary for more " advanced " practices like meditation,

> > while strengthening the body so that it can endure long periods of

> > sitting still. i think it'd be a mistake to say that meditation

> was

> > simply for cojones to perform feats of strength and flexibility--

> the

> > goal was (re-)union with the divine, and asana is simply a step on

> the

> > way.

>

> Quite so but it also works both ways. Long meditation can be

> physically taxing, so you need something to unwind that or build up

> to the ability... enter asana. And, the ability to do long

> meditation builds the kind of mental endurance that comes in handy

> when one attempts certain kinds of physical training for endurance.

> Like hundreds of reps. It's a zone for sure. They are all

> interlocking ways to get in touch with the divine, and

> simultaneously, ways to remove impediments to being in touch. If you

> think of weakness, stiffness, and scatter-brainededness

> as " impediments " in the sense of being distracting.

Yup, agreed-- just wanted to make it clear that physical ability

wasn't the goal, but rather a tool for allowing proper meditation and

the states it unlocks.

[Guest guest]

,

> a modern

> way to put it being maybe that in the same way that you can't explain

> pythagorean geometry to someone whose thought hasn't developed beyond

> the " concrete operational, " you can't explain transrational truths in

> rational terms. but, you can begin to explain the steps toward

> getting to them. if that makes any sense.

That was very nicely said and jibes with my experience. Total nonsense if

you choose to exclude the possibility of the " transrational " from your view

of reality, though

Ron.

[Guest guest]

Hi Christie,

I wondered who would dive in and do that post. You did a fine job.

A few thoughts:

Everyone in your yoga class is passing judgment on everyone else, all of the

time. You too. You don't seem to like people who look at your butt.

I happen to like all of the people in my yoga classes. Fit or less than

fit. It takes courage to come there and do something that is difficult and

confusing in front of other people. Are they all sexually attractive to me?

No. Does that stop me from going to class? No. Would a yoga class in LA

present a different set of parameters than the ones I go to here in NC?

Sure. That would be fun.

Both women and men can be decorative objects should they be fortunate enough

or do the work to create themselves as such. That's not a bad thing. It

doesn't mean that the undecorative are valueless. Unless they choose to

make themselves that way. Most of the truly great people in history were

not particularly good looking, so looks are but one of the myriad of

characteristics we use to define who we are and what our capabilities are.

As for going to the gym -- when I weighed 265 pounds with my big fat gut

hanging out all over the place in January of 2002 I chose to walk into a gym

and receive all of those stares that keep you away. My wife did too. She

was 40 pounds overweight. We had earned the stares by not figuring out AND

DOING what was necessary to have a fit and healthy body. A year later the

stares we got were stares of respect. Get over yourself, get into the gym

and get yourself fit.

You have done a tremendous thing by losing the weight that you have lost.

Give up the bitterness that frequently informs your posts. My facial

expressions do not drive you away. Your response to the facial expressions

of others, and your interpretation of them, drive you away.

Ron

> Gosh, and I can only imagine the joy of having some asshole

> in the back of my yoga class passing judgement on my ass.

>

> Women, whether " matronly " or " hot, " are no more decorative

> objects to be admired than men are. We are human beings. This

> attitude is exactly why it took me years to start taking

> yoga, which was frankly the best thing I ever did for my

> body. I took yoga for a year or more before I lost an ounce,

> and if people had had this attitude in my yoga class, I'd

> have never stuck with it. I'm really glad the people I

> studied with were there for yoga and not the view.

>

> To this day I have not been able to bring myself to join a

> gym because every time I go in and tour one, the sideways

> glances and facial expressions drive me away. If you think

> you can hide it, you're wrong. On behalf of the matronly,

> fat, flabby, old, out of shape, and otherwise non-Malibu

> Barbie among us, please get over it. Don't just stop SAYING

> it, actually get over it.

>

> Christie

>

[Guest guest]

>> A year later the

stares we got were stares of respect. Get over yourself, get into the gym

and get yourself fit.<<

You don't need a gym to get fit.

>> Give up the bitterness that frequently informs your posts. <<

::::Rolling eyes.:::::

>> My facial

expressions do not drive you away. Your response to the facial expressions

of others, and your interpretation of them, drive you away. <<

Does that make you feel better? If someone shot me in the heart and I died,

would it be because they shot me or because I allowed the bullet to hit my

heart?

Everyone on both sides of this equation has choices and responsibility. I

have chosen a more comfortable but still effective way to reach my goals

than by going into environments that feel hostile to me. Overcoming

ingrained body discomfort or issues with size, shape, etc. is hard enough

without simulatenously having to cope with the body language, facial

expressions, and " vibes " of your fellow gym-goers. There's no virtue to

sucking that up. You are choosing to lay 100 percent of the responsibility

on me. I think a more equitable arrangement would be otherwise.

Life, of course, isn't fair. I don't spend a lot of time agonizing over

things I can't change, and controlling other people's thoughts is definitely

on that list. But yoga class is precious space to me, and I didn't like the

tone of this discussion. That doesn't make me bitter and it doesn't prevent

me from reaching my fitness goals.

Christie

[Guest guest]

Hi Christie,

> You are choosing to lay 100 percent of the

> responsibility

> on me. I think a more equitable arrangement would be otherwise.

I chose, back in the beginning, to lay 100 of the responsibility for my

condition on me. I did the work, I got the result, I don't resent the looks

that I get (or, more importantly, got) from others. I didn't even resent

them back then although I sure didn't like them.

Is your choice of responsibility distribution making your life better? Is

it getting you where you want to go? Why fight what you can't change? The

only thing you have any control over is yourself. Blaming others for your

circumstances or for their contributions to your circumstances is a waste of

energy. All it does is give you permission to hold your unwanted condition

in place because, in your own mind, it's not all your fault.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Christie, I still see it the way you do. We get to choose the

environments in which we participate.

Ron, I didn't hear her say she was laying all responsibity onto

others. Just that in a shared environment such as a gym, the vibe

that happens there is shared among all the participants. there is

such a thing as different tolerances of overtly sexual innuendo and

it's a function of the management and the clientele too.

There's a hilarious article about males in the gym culture at, I

think, Testosterone Magazine where a female fitness person rags on

the guys for just that thing. She says, guys, you are the reason

women don't like gyms. Quit ogling. It keeps many women out. but she

also says girls, quit wearing porn wear, guys are visual and it's not

fair.

And I was thinking - in the 80s when I would have been more open to

gyms, it was coincidentally the time when there were even more scary

people on drugs than there are now, because everyone was so new to

supplements. At least in the sections where you could get really big

free weights (I didn't check the cardio sections). So that's another

culture I wouldn't want to participate in.

Connie

>

> Hi Christie,

>

> > You are choosing to lay 100 percent of the

> > responsibility

> > on me. I think a more equitable arrangement would be otherwise.

>

> I chose, back in the beginning, to lay 100 of the responsibility

for my

> condition on me. I did the work, I got the result, I don't resent

the looks

> that I get (or, more importantly, got) from others. I didn't even

resent

> them back then although I sure didn't like them.

>

> Is your choice of responsibility distribution making your life

better? Is

> it getting you where you want to go? Why fight what you can't

change? The

> only thing you have any control over is yourself. Blaming others

for your

> circumstances or for their contributions to your circumstances is a

waste of

> energy. All it does is give you permission to hold your unwanted

condition

> in place because, in your own mind, it's not all your fault.

>

> Ron

>

[Guest guest]

On 10/10/05, Christie <christiekeith@...> wrote:

> Women, whether " matronly " or " hot, " are no more decorative objects to >be

admired than men are. We are human beings.

Isn't that in the eye of the beholder? No one suggested that men were

not decorative or worthy of visual admiration. Whether they match up

to women in this respect is dependent on the perception of those

viewing them.

> To this day I have not been able to bring myself to join a gym because >every

time I go in and tour one, the sideways glances and facial >expressions drive me

away. If you think you can hide it, you're wrong. On >behalf of the matronly,

fat, flabby, old, out of shape, and otherwise non->Malibu Barbie among us,

please get over it. Don't just stop SAYING it, >actually get over it.

I tend to look the other way when I see women working out, because I'm

afraid they might take it as inappropriate staring, although I think

it's normal to look at, you know, something that's moving instead of

the walls or the metal.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

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