Re: pastured eggs, was food cost

[Guest guest]

--- In , " West "

> Well, illusion exists, always, as part of the agenda of any

business, but,

> as I said, the company does admit to a 30% feed (organic), and both

the yolk

> and shell strongly testify to a huge amount of grass/insect

ingestion. I

> don't think any predominantly feed-based egg could possibly produce

that

> vivid an orange or that hard a shell. Also, the eggs are sold in

both large

> and extra-large containers, and even within any container, there is

some

> variation.

>

> I tried many eggs before deciding on these as the best I had seen and

> tasted. I don't spend that kind of money easily. <g>

>

,

No doubt they may be the best seen and tasted, but I don't understand

how the company knows the chickens are getting 30% feed. I swear I

hate being contrary, but I don't see why the feed wouldn't account for

both the color and hardness factor. IME--limited--with foraging

egg-laying creatures--lizards and bantams--their eggs were every

variety of egg-shape. My egg/chicken guy's eggs are all uniform as

well except his pastured eggs, also from bantams, which are screwy.

Maybe Heidi or someone with pastured poultry will say what they see,

cuz I don't keep any birds myself and may well be talking nonsense.

B.

[Guest guest]

,

<I don't understand

how the company knows the chickens are getting 30% feed.>

Actually, I don't either. But that doesn't mean there isn't a way to

estimate--maybe from the amount of feed they eat as opposed to the amounts

eaten by non-pastured chickens.

<I swear I

hate being contrary, but I don't see why the feed wouldn't account for

both the color and hardness factor.

I can't speak with authority on these points, but since my experience with

pastured eggs of any kind is that they are more orange/hardshelled, I've

been assuming the color is due to the abundance of beta-carotene in the

grass and the hard shells are due to the abundance of calcium in the

insects. I have found all-feed eggs in the supermarket to be consistently

yellow in color (often a very light yellow) and thin-shelled.

[Guest guest]

At 10:14 AM 1/11/05 -0800, you wrote:

>I can't speak with authority on these points, but since my experience with

>pastured eggs of any kind is that they are more orange/hardshelled, I've

>been assuming the color is due to the abundance of beta-carotene in the

>grass and the hard shells are due to the abundance of calcium in the

>insects. I have found all-feed eggs in the supermarket to be consistently

>yellow in color (often a very light yellow) and thin-shelled.

>

>

You're absolutely right on the supermarket eggs. I have to chime in,

though, based on impressions I got when I asked some odd egg questions of

my own. Basically, it appears that both yolk color and shell hardness

*can* be artificially manipulated (was it tomatoes someone mentioned re

yolk color).

That said, however, just because it *can* be doesn't mean it *is*. The

firmness of the white is another factor too, in terms of freshness, but

basically, if even two out of three of those factors look good *AND* they

taste good, sounds to me like you've got some pretty good eggs there.

Hey, every once in a while I get an egg or two out of a dozen that have

pale yolks and thin shells, but I don't sweat it. Any more.

MFJ

Once, poets were magicians. Poets were strong, stronger than warriors or

kings - stronger than old hapless gods. And they will be strong once

again. ~Greg Bear

[Guest guest]

,

<The firmness of the white is another factor too, in terms of freshness, but

basically, if even two out of three of those factors look good *AND* they

taste good, sounds to me like you've got some pretty good eggs there.

Well, it might be three out of three, but I wouldn't know because I discard

the whites--partly out of dislike of the texture, but also because I eat

these raw, and I can't afford to have any biotin destroyed--I need all I can

get. I will add, though, that the yolks aren't just different in color,

they also have a firmer, more fatty-rich taste to them.

As to freshness, they still look and taste fresh when I reach the end of the

case in about three weeks.

[Guest guest]

At 11:14 AM 1/11/05 -0800, you wrote:

>

>,

>

><The firmness of the white is another factor too, in terms of freshness, but

>basically, if even two out of three of those factors look good *AND* they

>taste good, sounds to me like you've got some pretty good eggs there.

>

>Well, it might be three out of three, but I wouldn't know because I discard

>the whites--partly out of dislike of the texture, but also because I eat

>these raw, and I can't afford to have any biotin destroyed--I need all I can

>get. I will add, though, that the yolks aren't just different in color,

>they also have a firmer, more fatty-rich taste to them.

>

>As to freshness, they still look and taste fresh when I reach the end of the

>case in about three weeks.

>

>

Well there ya have it then.

Me, I make too many renditions of scrambled eggs to avoid noticing the

texture of the whites.

MFJ

Once, poets were magicians. Poets were strong, stronger than warriors or

kings - stronger than old hapless gods. And they will be strong once

again. ~Greg Bear

[Guest guest]

-

>Basically, it appears that both yolk color and shell hardness

>*can* be artificially manipulated (was it tomatoes someone mentioned re

>yolk color).

Yeah, I'm the one who found eggs from chickens fed tomatoes. The darkest

orange yolks I've ever seen, but how much of that was due to the

tomatoes? At any rate, rather than " can " , I'd say " almost always

are " . Factory farm eggs owe their color to the fact that people expect

yellow yolks, so commercial chicken feed is designed to give people what

they expect. Corn will pass its color along to yolks, and often other

concentrated carotene sources are used too.

-

[Guest guest]

At 03:00 PM 1/11/05 -0500, you wrote:

>

>-

>

>>Basically, it appears that both yolk color and shell hardness

>>*can* be artificially manipulated (was it tomatoes someone mentioned re

>>yolk color).

>

>Yeah, I'm the one who found eggs from chickens fed tomatoes. The darkest

>orange yolks I've ever seen, but how much of that was due to the

>tomatoes? At any rate, rather than " can " , I'd say " almost always

>are " . Factory farm eggs owe their color to the fact that people expect

>yellow yolks, so commercial chicken feed is designed to give people what

>they expect. Corn will pass its color along to yolks, and often other

>concentrated carotene sources are used too.

>

>-

Corn, huh? I wonder how *much* that would pass. Although I guess if

you're comparing factory-farmed to factory-farmed, maybe it would be

noticeable.

Thanks to all you helpful folks so willing to share ... my basis for

judging now is the fantastic summer eggs v. the winter ones from the same

guy. The spring/summer eggs are the ultimate ... anything resembling

them later on in the season is just gravy.

MFJ

Once, poets were magicians. Poets were strong, stronger than warriors or

kings - stronger than old hapless gods. And they will be strong once

again. ~Greg Bear

[Guest guest]

-

>Corn, huh? I wonder how *much* that would pass. Although I guess if

>you're comparing factory-farmed to factory-farmed, maybe it would be

>noticeable.

Corn is a very common factory farm laying hen feed, and it yields genuinely

yellow yolks, though they're certainly pale and anemic compared to what we

NN types look for. I wonder what yolks from hens fed relatively

carotene-free diets would look like.

Actually, i's disturbing to even try to imagine. <g>

-

[Guest guest]

At 04:09 PM 1/11/05 -0500, you wrote:

>Actually, i's disturbing to even try to imagine. <g>

LOL. Yeah, you're right. I think I'll just stop right there. Just

gonna enjoy my good eggs.

MFJ

Once, poets were magicians. Poets were strong, stronger than warriors or

kings - stronger than old hapless gods. And they will be strong once

again. ~Greg Bear

[Guest guest]

When I lived in Khartoum, the neighbors had chickens in a large cage

and fed them table scraps, but no greens (not much green in a desert

country)The yolks were white.\

Connie H.

> >I can't speak with authority on these points, but since my

experience with

> >pastured eggs of any kind is that they are more

orange/hardshelled, I've

> >been assuming the color is due to the abundance of beta-carotene

in the

> >grass and the hard shells are due to the abundance of calcium in

the

> >insects. I have found all-feed eggs in the supermarket to be

consistently

> >yellow in color (often a very light yellow) and thin-shelled.

> >

> >

>

>

> You're absolutely right on the supermarket eggs. I have to

chime in,

> though, based on impressions I got when I asked some odd egg

questions of

> my own. Basically, it appears that both yolk color and shell

hardness

> *can* be artificially manipulated (was it tomatoes someone

mentioned re

> yolk color).

>

> That said, however, just because it *can* be doesn't mean it

*is*. The

> firmness of the white is another factor too, in terms of

freshness, but

> basically, if even two out of three of those factors look good

*AND* they

> taste good, sounds to me like you've got some pretty good eggs

there.

>

> Hey, every once in a while I get an egg or two out of a dozen that

have

> pale yolks and thin shells, but I don't sweat it. Any

more.

>

>

>

> MFJ

> Once, poets were magicians. Poets were strong, stronger than

warriors or

> kings - stronger than old hapless gods. And they will be strong

once

> again. ~Greg Bear

[Guest guest]

>>>Corn will pass its color along to yolks, and often other concentrated

carotene sources are used too.<<<

I worked for a few days on an organic farm that had barn-laid eggs. I overheard

the owner say that here (in Australia) organic egg producers are allowed to use

paprika and marigold for egg colouring.

Cheers,

Tas'.

" Give it to us raw and wrrrrrrrrriggling " - Smeagol, LOTR.

----------

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[Guest guest]

>,

>

><I don't understand

>how the company knows the chickens are getting 30% feed.>

Farmers pretty much know how much a chicken USUALLY eats,

so if they are feeding them less, they know how much less.

I.e. if 12 chickens need one pound of food a day when

they are confined, but only eat half a pound when they

forage, they are getting 50% feed.

>

><I swear I

>hate being contrary, but I don't see why the feed wouldn't account for

>both the color and hardness factor.

My chickens get thin eggshells unless I supplement them

with oyster shell, no matter how many bugs they get.

It takes a lot of calcium to make eggshells, I think! Laying

an egg a day is very, very unnatural for a bird.

The orange yolk comes from greens,

and maybe bugs. There isn't any real reason why a confined

chicken can't get a good diet ... when mine were caged

I just brought them freshly uprooted weeds (roots, bugs

and all). They do like sunning themselves and foraging

etc. so I think they are *happier* outside.

As for all the eggs being the same ... I think that just means

they were sorted. Young hens lay different size eggs

than older ones, and the texture changes too, as they

age. And every breed is a little different. But large farms

sort the eggs by size, and toss the ones where the

shell is " off " , or that have blood spots (considered

lower quality eggs).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>My chickens get thin eggshells unless I supplement them

>with oyster shell, no matter how many bugs they get.

I've read that oysters deposit mercury in their shells (though I haven't

seen definitive evidence) so you might want to consider other calcium

sources. One chicken farmer I patronize actually feeds his hens their own

eggshells!

-

[Guest guest]

Tas-

>I worked for a few days on an organic farm that had barn-laid eggs. I

>overheard the owner say that here (in Australia) organic egg producers are

>allowed to use paprika and marigold for egg colouring.

Marigold is pretty common as a coloring agent for eggs. I hadn't heard

about paprika, but it makes sense. Hens deposit a lot of the carotenes

they eat into their yolks.

-

[Guest guest]

> Tas-

>

> >I worked for a few days on an organic farm that had barn-laid eggs. I

> >overheard the owner say that here (in Australia) organic egg producers

are

> >allowed to use paprika and marigold for egg colouring.

>

> Marigold is pretty common as a coloring agent for eggs. I hadn't heard

> about paprika, but it makes sense. Hens deposit a lot of the carotenes

> they eat into their yolks.

> -

The idea here is that we're not just going for carotene per se, right?

We want the yolk color to indicate carotene specifically from

grass and insects, because we want the nutrients from grass and

insects. Eggs could be high in carotenes from tomatoes or whatever,

and be pretty nutritious, but those carotenes aren't a marker for

grass & insect goodies. I'm just trying to get this straight in my head ...

Aven

[Guest guest]

>I've read that oysters deposit mercury in their shells (though I haven't

>seen definitive evidence) so you might want to consider other calcium

>sources. One chicken farmer I patronize actually feeds his hens their own

>eggshells!

>

>-

Oyster shells can have high mercury or lead ... ideally I'd

like to feed the cow bones through the bone chipper

(though I suppose those might be contaminated too).

I suppose I could buy bulk calcium carbonate or something ...

I do feed them their eggshells also.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

[] Well, it might be three out of three, but I wouldn't know

because I discard

the whites--partly out of dislike of the texture, but also because I eat

these raw, and I can't afford to have any biotin destroyed--I need all I can

get. I will add, though, that the yolks aren't just different in color,

they also have a firmer, more fatty-rich taste to them.

As to freshness, they still look and taste fresh when I reach the end of the

case in about three weeks.

[MAP] I eat the yolks raw and toss the whites too, but I'm well aware

of variation in the white's firmness. It's very obvious how firm a

white is as it blobs around in the palm of my hand before finally

slipping through my fingers and falling into the compost bowl. I

don't correlate white firmness with quality, though, just freshness.

Very fresh eggs usually have firm whites, but even the best eggs I've

had have very loose whites after sitting in my kitchen for a few

weeks.

I get my eggs from local farms and I know they're pastured because I

can walk around on the pasture and see (and hear) the chickens! All

the farms use a significant amount of feed, though, some organic, some

not. I doubt they'd have any idea what percentage of the diet comes

from feed; they're not that sophisticated. The absolute best egg

farmer around here has been at it for many years with a chicken

tractor, and I typically pay $3/dozen for those. (Those are the eggs

familiar to many WAPFers in the D.C./VA/MD region.) I can get equally

good or almost equally good eggs from a select handful of other

farmers for $1-2/dozen. Around here, you can get garbage junk eggs

from family farms all over the place, for $1/dozen on average. It's

very sad that these people could very easily modify their practices

and produce vastly healthier food for their family, considering that

their own family is the consumer of at least 90% of the eggs in most

cases. They just don't have a clue I guess, which is crazy in the

egg case because the yolk color criterion is so blindingly obvious and

surely familiar to most country folks.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

Aven-

>The idea here is that we're not just going for carotene per se, right?

>We want the yolk color to indicate carotene specifically from

>grass and insects, because we want the nutrients from grass and

>insects. Eggs could be high in carotenes from tomatoes or whatever,

>and be pretty nutritious, but those carotenes aren't a marker for

>grass & insect goodies. I'm just trying to get this straight in my head ...

Exactly. The color of yolks isn't a perfect indicator of egg quality

because it's easily and commonly manipulated.

-

[Guest guest]

At 11:38 PM 1/11/05 -0500, you wrote:

>I don't correlate white firmness with quality, though, just freshness.

>Very fresh eggs usually have firm whites

Right, that's what I meant - an indicator of freshness, but not quality per

se (although fresh is always better).

I made a comment earlier in this thread about how I occasionally get an egg

or two out of a dozen with thinner shell and pale yolk. Having just

cracked one of those very eggs open, I looked at it and had to laugh.

" Pale yolk " means dark yellow, not the usual deep orange color for these

eggs. Absolutely NO comparison to a store-bought egg. BOY OH BOY

have I gotten spoiled.

And I like it.

MFJ

Dairy Angel

[Guest guest]

[Aven] The idea here is that we're not just going for carotene per se, right?

We want the yolk color to indicate carotene specifically from

grass and insects, because we want the nutrients from grass and

insects. Eggs could be high in carotenes from tomatoes or whatever,

and be pretty nutritious, but those carotenes aren't a marker for

grass & insect goodies. I'm just trying to get this straight in my head ...

[] Exactly. The color of yolks isn't a perfect indicator of egg quality

because it's easily and commonly manipulated.

[MAP] Great points Aven and , but it's very easy to distinguish

between authentic practices and color trickery, so once you rule out

the possibility of color trickery, color does seem to be a

near-perfect (how could we call anything " perfect " anyway?) indicator.

I doubt yolk color deception is a common practice, though, considering

that the specialty (aka non-junk as defined by consumer perception)

market for eggs is tiny in the first place compared to typical

supermarket eggs, and that this market is probably dominated by the

kinds of farmers I'm familiar with, none of which play that game,

including guys who raise enough eggs to supply gourmet restaurants in

Philly and NYC. I would guess that color deception is practiced by

less than .1% of egg producers, because there just aren't that many

suppliers in that murky " city folk market " no-man's land between the

good stuff and the worst stuff. In any case, it's not especially

difficult to investigate any specific source and get the truth about

their practices. It would be a nice project for someone to put

together a website reporting on the operation details of different egg

farms, as a consumer reference. It only takes one adequately

knowledgeable person to visit a farm and get the facts straight. The

rest is a trivial matter of information consolidation and

distribution, the triviality owing of course to the internet.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

Mike-

>[MAP] Great points Aven and , but it's very easy to distinguish

>between authentic practices and color trickery, so once you rule out

>the possibility of color trickery, color does seem to be a

>near-perfect (how could we call anything " perfect " anyway?) indicator.

You live in an area that allows you to personally check out the diets of

the hens whose eggs you buy. I don't know where Aven lives, but I live in

NYC, so it's simply not practical.

>I doubt yolk color deception is a common practice,

Are we talking all egg producers, or just pastured producers? Even

assuming we're restricting the discussion to pastured producers (because

deception among industrial producers is virtually universal) what exactly

qualifies as deception? I'm sure the farmer I know who feeds his laying

hens tomatoes wouldn't call it a deceptive practice, but if we're

considering yolk color as a measure of pasture quality, then it certainly

is. Heck, even corn has an effect on yolk color without any corresponding

indication of pasture quality.

-

[Guest guest]

[MAP] Great points Aven and , but it's very easy to distinguish

between authentic practices and color trickery, so once you rule out

the possibility of color trickery, color does seem to be a

near-perfect (how could we call anything " perfect " anyway?) indicator.

[] You live in an area that allows you to personally check out the diets of

the hens whose eggs you buy. I don't know where Aven lives, but I live in

NYC, so it's simply not practical.

[MAP] I didn't say anything about practicality. All I meant is that

there exists easy methods of distinguishing the two methods. My

observation relates more to the theoretical status of the color

criterion. In the manner of my consumer awareness reference website

idea for eggs, there should be someone who can personally inspect an

operation and communicate the facts. But even using telephones, mail,

etc, obtaining this knowledge directly from the farmer is not that

impractical or difficult, just somewhat embroiled in social dilemmas

regarding truthfulness.

----------

[MAP] I doubt yolk color deception is a common practice,

[] Are we talking all egg producers, or just pastured producers? Even

assuming we're restricting the discussion to pastured producers (because

deception among industrial producers is virtually universal) what exactly

qualifies as deception? I'm sure the farmer I know who feeds his laying

hens tomatoes wouldn't call it a deceptive practice, but if we're

considering yolk color as a measure of pasture quality, then it certainly

is. Heck, even corn has an effect on yolk color without any corresponding

indication of pasture quality.

[MAP] I meant all egg producers. If color deception was universal

among industrial producers, wouldn't supermarket eggs have nice yolk

colors? I once bought supermarket eggs (it was in my transition to

NT; I think I wound up throwing them away) and they looked exactly

like what you'd expect from a factory farm. (funny story: back then I

was still nervous as a newbie to eating raw eggs and I believed the

refrigeration myth and I remember driving home from the supermarket

frantically worrying whether I'd get them into the fridge to a safe

temp in time before they became dangerous to eat raw! I'm sure I gave

the gas pedal a little extra nudge! LOL Now of course I eat raw eggs

that have sat out for weeks in the heat of summer and the other day I

found an egg that was very cracked and leaking when I pulled it out of

the carton, but when I opened it up it looked fine so I just popped it

right in my mouth like usual without any hesitation... Talk about

your paradigm shifts! It's nice to remember one's old mentality to

understand other people's current mentality...)

By deception I meant the specific deceptive effects, not the

associated intentions of the farmer.

I've never heard about the effect of corn on yolk color; could you

elaborate on this? It seems that corn is a universal ingredient in

chicken feed, though I'm not certain of this. I assume that even the

best pastured eggs I can buy are still produced with some amount of

chicken feed, organic or otherwise, and that corn is an ingredient.

I'd like to learn more about this!

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

Do free range penguin eggs have large amounts of beneficial fats?

Darrell

[Guest guest]

--- Most certainly at KS diners. Dennis

In , " Darrell " <lazlo75501@y...>

wrote:

> Do free range penguin eggs have large amounts of beneficial fats?

>

> Darrell