Liver cleanse debris test results

[Guest guest]

Hi Angel,

>a couple of years ago while researching cancer cures for a friend of mine who

was suffering, i discovered hulda clarke's books and websites " curing all

cancers. " i concluded this was not real, but she also had a cleanse protocol

she was advocating that did sound reasonable and her discussion list of hundreds

of " users " testified to it also. i decided to file it away for use at a later

time when everything else was settled and i could afford to focus on me again.

--> I'm familiar with her and have her book. She's very very controversial but

has a big following of people who swear by her and her methods. I've heard there

are people who've suffered from her methods too. Personally I think she's too

obsessed with germs/parasites as I believe a healthy body is designed to cope

with germs etc and in fact needs them (as seen in the theory of one cause of the

rise in asthma and eczema being caused by over-hygienic parents). But I think

she has a point about the chemicals and toxins in our food and environment. Her

dietary recommendations I think are awful (eg. ultra-pasteurised milk). Her

liver flush is the most popular and easiest to do as it involves less olive oil

and it's mixed with grapefruit juice. There is a list of all the differen

flushes here: http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/default.asp The guy who started

the curezone (Dushan) tells of his grandmother having an attack in Hungary

during the war. It was a blackout and they couldn't get to a hospital or get

medicine. So the doctor told her of this old remedy of olive oil and lemons. She

did this and passed her gallstones which she kept in a jar for years. So the

story goes. I know people who have passed the real calcified gallstones in the

cleanse but they have to be small enough to pass through the bile duct which

mine weren't. I'm happy to have kept my GB though especially now that my

calcified stones are silent.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

" ...tried for years to find out if it was genuine and gave up once I discovered

WPF and solved my problems that way... "

does this mean that you no longer do the flushes? wpf stands for the raw milk

thing, right? if so are you saying that drinking raw milk is what's treating

your issues now?

--> Well Sally Fallon's lecture convinced me to stop being a vegetarian for a

start. WPF stands for Weston Price Foundation and for me that meant eating

meat,drinking raw milk and soaking my grains. But then I found these wonderful

people on and in the end it was the Warrior Diet, giving up

grains for a while, and HCl that finally seemed to solve my digestive problems

and stop gall bladder symptoms.

where does it actually hurt with a gallbladder attack? i'm wondering if that's

what i had last month...

--> it affects people differently. For me it was stabbing pains in my stomach

and middle back (just behind the stomach). This started mildly after a Thai

prawn chilli dish and got progressively worse until I woke up in agony in the

middle of the night. By the next day, the stabbing pains had subsided and the

remaining dull constant pain was in my right side. You can't actually feel pain

in your gall bladder or liver (which are silent organs). You feel the pain in

your bile ducts so it's when a stone passes or gets stuck that the problems

start. Loads (if not most) people have gallstones but they are generally silent.

So I think it's people with digestive issues such as poor fat digestion, and

gluten allergy that have the GB attacks. I think immune system has a lot to do

with it too as I was more prone to attacks when my immune system was down.

do you know WHY the pre-cleanse fasting and enemas are necessary? is it

mandatory? why must the digestive tract be empty?

--> I don't think they are necessary. That was just the protocol I followed the

first few times. I've done heaps since then without the fasting. On the other

hand, most people fast at least half a day, or at least avoid all fat to allow

the bile to build up and therefore ensure a more substantial release of stuff

from the GB. A longer fast means you don't have to sort through the stools to

find the stones. I really had nothing left in my digestive tract so all that

came out was the off bile and bile " stones " . It was pretty radical though. A few

years ago, I tried to do it again but I couldn't even hold down a sip of the

straight oil. So the one where you emulsify with grapefruit juice really is

easier (just less satsfying the next day!).

so, this cleanse with oil only cleanses the liver? not the kidneys or the

bowels or the gall bladder?

--> well the jury's out on what it actually does but I know that I didn't

imagine what happened to me and everyone who knew me then will also testify for

that! Supposedly it cleanses both the liver and gallbladder. The oil causes

the GB to contract and release whatever contents will fit through the neck of

the GB. The emptying of the GB triggers the liver to produce more bile (as you

probably know the GB is basically a storage bag for bile.). The liver is full of

hundreds (thousands?) of ducts. I've read that with each flush, the cleanse goes

deeper into the liver. In other words, at first the lower ducts are emptied out

and gradually if you keep flushing, more descend. I know people who've done

loads of flushes every 2 weeks or month or so and eventually the stones stop

coming out. There are occasionally people who come onto curezone claiming

they've cured themselves of pretty serious disorders through successive liver

cleansing. I stopped because I was feeling weak and it didn't seem to be the

final answer.

how often do you repeat these flushes? and they are still only for the liver?

--> I just did them whenever my symptoms got worse. i.e. when I started to feel

twinges and get mini-attacks. I've never had such a bad attack as the first time

but I've had mini attacks and the liver flushing seemed to control them. Some

people do 20 or even 30 (doing 1 every two weeks). I kind of started to feel it

was a dead end cycle and you could get stuck liver flushing for ever but there

were people who claimed to eventually come out the other end disease and symptom

free. Changing my diet ended up being much easier than continuing endlessly

liver flushing!

what about vegetarianism damages the gall bladder? or causes problems in it?

--> not sure what you mean. I read that if you don't provide your body with

enough cholesterol through diet, the liver produces it by itself and stores it

in the GB. I can't remember the details of this and other more knowledgeable

people here will probably explain this better than me. I think my low fat, low

protein diet caused low stomach acid and impaired my digestion. Then the

gallbladder had all this bile stored in it but it didn't get released enough

(i.e. not triggered to empty its contents because of low fat and low protein).

So it congealed?

" ... it took 10 years of working on this but I made it in the end.... "

Thank you! And it really was thanks to everyone here at . I'm

most eternally grateful! I pity all those poor flushers I left behind at

curezone. I did go back there and report my success - some listened I think but

there are the die-hard raw veganists there too. (s Moritz being one of

them - I saw his name mentioned here. Was it who spoke to/of him?).

Filippa

[Guest guest]

Hi Christie,

> >> If that is true then it would make a strong argument for the fact

> that the debris that I'm seeing is actually formed in the

> liver itself.

> Otherwise we would have to theorize that my digestive tract would stop

> forming the little balls of bile salts and olive oil over repeated

> cleansings. <<

>

> Well, not really. It might be just crud from your intestinal

> tract. Look at

> the reports of people who do colonic irrigation (something

> else I'm totally

> against, LOL).

If there is one thing I'm completely certain about in this whole process it

is that the debris that I got out of my bowels during the liver cleanses was

absolutely and positively NOT fecal material. I had been passing clear

psyllium for a couple of days prior to the liver cleanse and in the evening

of the cleanses I passed clear water several times before going to bed.

Whatever the real contents of the debris in my pictures is I'm certain that

it was not feces or lining from my colon.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi Christie,

Great post.

> That leaves us with the same basic issue as before, which is

> that we don't

> know if the masses/stones the " Gall Bladder Flush " programs

> cause to appear

> in the stool are, or are not, passed gallstones.

Agreed. I think Filippa's description was excellent and I'll leave it stand

at that.

>

> I tend to believe they are not, because even if the gall

> bladder flush works

> just as it promises to, I can't understand why on earth this

> wouldn't be

> agonizingly painful,

> how it would cure a diseased or damaged

> gall bladder,

I think the mechanism for healing is simply to rid the liver and gallbladder

(remember -- the cleanses are purported to remove stones from both organs)

of the toxic materials that they contain and then allow them to heal

themselves.

> nor how stones getting lodged in the common bile duct could

> be avoided.

One of the things that was most unbelievable to me was that my liver could

have possibly passed all of the crap in my pictures. Part of the problem

was that I had an incorrect image of my liver. I realized after one of my

earlier exchanges with that my picture of my liver was kind of what

cooked liver looks like. Sort of firm and crumbly. Once I recalled how

almost liquid fresh liver actually is I realized that it is probably very,

very elastic and can adapt to almost any shape.

So, to address your comment above, it appears that based on the reports of

thousands of people it actually does happen regularly.

> It

> flunks the common sense test for me.

I hear you.

> All I know is that I tried for years to keep my gallbladder,

> that I suffered

> enormously while doing so, and I wish I'd had my damn

> gallbladder removed

> right at the very beginning. I passed MANY stones and the

> pain, nausea, and

> suffering were indescribable ... and yet, they were nothing,

> truly NOTHING,

> compared to the pain I felt when my common bile duct was

> blocked. I was

> literally screaming in pain lying flat out on the floor while

> I was alone

> waiting for the ambulance. There is simply no way I could ever support

> anything that might result in that for someone with gall

> bladder disease.

Did you ever cleanse? It doesn't sound like it. Did you not know about

cleansing back then?

As for the pain -- my daughter had her gallbladder removed three years ago

at age 21. I'll never forget her calling me at 6:00 AM one morning in

absolutely hysterical pain. I thought she was having a panic attack but

told her to have her boyfriend take her to the emergency room just to be

safe. She still talks about the pain, although now that we know what we

know she wishes she had tried to cleanse rather than just have it cut out.

>

> I definitely believe we can prevent gall bladder disease with

> healthy diet.

> And I'm sure there is a certain level of gallbladder disease that is

> reversible. And I also believe that there's a point past

> which our gall

> bladders are so damaged and diseased that they honestly do need to be

> removed. And I really think that " gall bladder flushes "

> either do not work

> or, if they do work, are unacceptably dangerous.

On what info do you base this assumption? I have seen reports of cleanses

that turned into pain attacks but never of cleanses doing damage beyond

having to have the gallbladder removed.

>

> Then again, you have to realize I am against all forms of

> purging - if you

> search the archives I'm sure you'll find one of my many rants

> against them.

Fair enough. This sounds like the position of many others and I appreciate

that it may be correct even though I'm not sure that it actually _is_

correct.

> The body is not a toxic waste dump

Bodies constantly exposed to a lifetime of toxic environment AND toxic food

actually do become toxic waste dumps. Mine was a case study in toxicity.

Fortunately I seem to have a pretty strong constitution and was able to be

pretty vigorous despite feeling like crap all of the time. My body

spontaneously began to detox once I cleaned up my diet. I had monthly waste

dumps that smelled like the remnants from chemical factories. This lasted

for a year before becoming more sporadic.

> and it doesn't need to be brutally

> cleansed.

You may be right and the slow nutrition and avoidance self regulating

approach may well be fine, although I think that it is probably insufficient

once you've reached a certain level of toxic overload. If you ate perfectly

and largely avoided significant chemical exposure from birth your body would

detox at its maximum level, I think. Given that all of us are here on this

email list because we have not done that I think stronger measures may not

only be warranted but necessary for our bodies to correct themselves to the

best of their ability.

If you break your arm your body will heal it all by itself but the fix may

be crooked or weak. If the doctor straightens it out (painful and

unnatural) and puts it in a cast it will heal and become as strong as it was

before.

> Our bodies are capable of amazing feats of balance, and will

> maintain healthy homeostasis not just under OPTIMUM

> circumstances, but as

> long as it's possible at all. I believe that we mostly need

> to just stop

> actively harming them, and give them the support they need to

> do their work.

This sounds very much like the position that has taken in our ongoing

debate. I respect it and even acknowledge that it may be correct. My

particular intuition tells me that stronger measures are actually more

optimum given the degree of damage we may have done. The question is which

measures and how strong. That is certainly a debatable topic.

>

> And when they have been damaged beyond their ability to fix

> themselves, for

> whatever reason, that is exactly what I think that

> allopathic/conventional

> medicine does very, very well and is in many cases exactly

> what's needed.

I love Western medicine for all of the things that it gets right. I hate it

for all of the things that it refuses to look at.

I spent Tuesday morning in the office of the leading gastroenterologist at

Duke University Medical Center here in Durham. It was fascinating talking

to him because there was zero question that everything he was telling me was

supported by the best available studies conventional medicine has to offer.

And he was brilliant and knowledgeable without a doubt. Yet when I showed

him a jar of liver debris -- right there in the room in front of his face --

he looked at me and told me that it was most likely fecal material. As I've

said elsewhere I don't know much about my liver debris but I am certain that

it's not fecal material. So anyway, there was no interest to test it or

look into the issue further because he had already dismissed the entire

issue as quack medicine. I chose not push it as I was there for other

things.

Then on Wednesday morning I spent a half hour talking to s Moritz on

the telephone. He is the author of the book that contained the liver

cleansing protocol that I followed, _The Amazing Liver Cleanse_. He had

this beautiful and wonderful knowledge and understanding of the mechanics of

the processes that I have been going through. His understanding was much

more beautiful than that of the GI doc at Duke. And yet the whole time I

was talking to him all I could think of was, " where are the studies to back

this up? "

So within 24 hours I talked to experts in both healing modalities and was

just struck with wonder at the differences between the two.

> There are those who feel that fasting and purging and

> detoxing and flushing

> the body are preferable to allopathic/surgical interventions,

> and that is of

> course their choice. But to me, it seems to perpetuate a sort

> of mentality

> that our bodies are dirty and diseased and, well.... TOXIC.

Hmmm. How about our bodies are naturally clean and beautiful but we happen

to live in a world in which we are exposing ourselves to levels of toxicity

never imagined before? Our bodies _become_ toxic to the degree that we have

or continue to mis-treat them.

So I would say to you that my body is not toxic but it became toxic. How's

that for a distinction?

> And I just can't

> believe that's at all healthy, mentally speaking.

>

> My body is not a toxic waste zone and doesn't need a

> Superfund Clean Up. <G>

LOL.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi Filippa,

Thank you very much for taking the time to post this. Because I am new to

this process (four cleanses over two months in Jan and Feb) I don't feel

very authoritative discussing the theory or even what others report. Your

description of your experiences and your knowledge was very clear and

largely agrees with my own thoughts. That you had great result from your

early cleanses is very encouraging to me.

Ron

> I've posted before (over a year ago) about my liver flush

> experiences. I tried for years to find out if it was genuine

> and gave up once I discovered WPF and solved my problems that

> way. However, in my experience the liver flush definitely

> DOES work in some way - not just my experience but hundreds

> of others who post their experiences and results on the

> curezone liver flush forum. The liver flush totally

> transformed my health.

>

> My story is that I was suffering from fatigue, allergies,

> lots of colds and terrible period pain in my early twenties

> (I also had patches of acne on my temples). I had a blood

> test done and was told nothing was wrong, that I had chronic

> fatigue syndrome and to take vitamin C. A month later, I had

> a massive gallbladder attack that left me virtually unable to

> walk for a week. Well to cut a long story short, I found out

> about the liver flush and decided to try it as I didn't want

> to have the operation. I did the radical 2 cups of oil with

> chasers of lemon juice flush preceded by 3 days of fasting

> and enemas (so there wasn't much left in my digestive tract

> by the time I did the flush).

>

> What came out were hundreds and hundreds of bright emerald

> green waxy stones (the olive oil I drank was not green, it

> was yellow). But that's really beside the point. My tongue

> had always been coated and I often suffered from

[snip]

[Guest guest]

Hi Angel,

> a couple of years ago while researching cancer cures for a

> friend of mine who was suffering, i discovered hulda clarke's

> books and websites " curing all cancers. " i concluded this

> was not real, but she also had a cleanse protocol she was

> advocating that did sound reasonable and her discussion list

> of hundreds of " users " testified to it also. i decided to

> file it away for use at a later time when everything else was

> settled and i could afford to focus on me again.

>

> i began thinking about it just as your thread appeared and i

> wonder if you are familiar with her cleanse and how it

> differs from the one you did? if you're not familiar with

> hulda clarke, would you mind sharing what this cleanse

> protocol you did entailed?

I am familiar with Hulda's books and have read both " Cancer " and " All

Disease " . It was she who introduced me to the idea of parasite and liver

cleanses back when I first read her after my father-in-law contracted cancer

in 1998. I agree with you that her recommendations for living daily life

are not correct but I suspect that her brutal techniques may work for people

who are dying of cancer.

As for cleansing protocols, I used s Moritz's protocol as outlined in

his book. You can find it at www.ener-chi.com . The current version is

called _The Amazing Liver and Gallbladder Flush_ . I highly recommend that

you purchase and read the whole book before doing any cleanses. His

protocol is one of the more safe methods if it is followed completely. I

can't recall how different it is from Hulda's liver cleanse, though. Not

too different I think.

>

> " .....Time will tell as I continue the process. I will

> report any info as it

> develops.... "

>

> and what do you mean by the above? are you not done with

> your cleanse now? or are there other components to it?

>

One of the things that s is insistent on is that once you start

cleansing your liver you must continue the process with liver flushes once

per month until the liver no longer generates stones. He says that for most

people that is 10 to 15 cleanses. I have only done 4 cleanses so far so I

have a ways to go. Apparently there is usually a significant change in

health after the 7th or 8th cleanse. We shall see.

Ron

[Guest guest]

> There is a list of all

> the differen flushes here:

> http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/default.asp

Great site. Nice picture of the liver/gallbladder/bile duct anatomy.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hmm...so theoretically, if one eats lots of good fats daily and seems to digest

them fine, one is really in not danger of having a blocked gallbladder?

I tried the liver flush about three years ago (I was 21 or 22 at the time and in

good health) and nothing came out.

Tom

> In that case the end of the duct gets blocked, as I wrote earlier. Forcing the

gall bladder to really empty might be a good solution (and who knows, maybe the

liver itself has the same issue with it's ducts, as someone wrote, I'm not that

familiar with anatomy). (Heidi Jean)

>

> --> I think there are a lot of misconceptions amongst liver flushes. I was

originally told that the oil goes into the gall bladder and washes out the

stones that way! My doctor student soon sorted out my ideas! When I first had my

GB attack I didn't even know the GB existed and assumed my flu had gone into my

liver. But anyway, there is no way I imagined what happened to me. I think my

bile ducts were so congested and my diet was so low fat that when I had the 2

cups of olive oil, it all came spurting out!

>

> Filippa

>

[Guest guest]

>Hmm...so theoretically, if one eats lots of good fats daily and seems to digest

them fine, one is really in not danger of having a blocked gallbladder?

>

>I tried the liver flush about three years ago (I was 21 or 22 at the time and

in good health) and nothing came out.

>

>Tom

That would be my guess. Gall bladders are not supposed to be full of " stuff " any

more than your urine bladder is. If the opening gets inflamed though -- which it

does if your gut is inflamed because of food intolerance or dysbiosis -- then

the gall gets " stuck " inside. I'm not sure what makes it form stones though.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hmm...so theoretically, if one eats lots of good fats daily and seems to digest

them fine, one is really in not danger of having a blocked gallbladder?

I tried the liver flush about three years ago (I was 21 or 22 at the time and in

good health) and nothing came out.

Tom

--> that's my opinion Tom. Although some people have had nothing come out the

first time and plenty the next time - perhaps if really congested. But if you

were in good health then I would say, you just didn't have a congested liver/GB

Filippa

p.s. according to my research the way to know if you are digesting fats fine is

if your stools sink and are a healthy rich brown colour.