Re: Food costs.

[Guest guest]

,

I believe that getting raw and grassfed products (and no grains) has more

than doubled my food bill, but I've been unwilling to assess the exact rise

in cost. (Unwilling, that is to make myself worried and depressed.)

I'm a senior, and most people my age are speading huge amounts on

supplements and drugs and doctors--which I don't do. So I figure I'm doing

fine in the financial dept.

[Guest guest]

Pratick-

>Simply replacing non-organic with organic products more than doubles the

>grocery bill for

>us. We saw our grocery bills shoot through the roof when we switched to

>organic.

>Going one step forward with free-range organic eggs, butter from

>pasture-fed cows, cream,

>etc. has increased the bills further.

Yikes. I've been buying organic for long enough that I don't remember what

I was spending on conventional, but I'm sure there's a big

difference. However, more recently I've found that in some cases moving to

even-better foods has resulted in cost savings, just because I now get as

much of my food as possible directly from farmers, often via the farmers

market here in the city. So for example, where previously I bought Country

Hen eggs at $3.29 per half dozen, now I get genuinely pastured eggs for

$4.50 a dozen. Still way more expensive than conventional eggs,

unfortunately, but also a lot better than Country Hen. Removing the

overhead of grocery stores and the vast distribution network they have to

pay for can make a difference. Even seafood is a little cheaper.

If you get a freezer, you can also buy meat in bulk directly from a farmer,

which can save you even more money. Sometimes they just have volume

discounts, and you can always do well if you buy portions of an animal -- a

quarter, half or whole cow, for example.

And for health reasons, I'm looking to dramatically increase the amount of

organs, innards and " variety " meats in my diet, and luckily enough, since

most people don't like those cuts, they're cheaper. Hawthorne Valley Farm,

a very good biodynamic grass-fed farm here in NY, sells porterhouse and

t-bone steaks for something like $15 a pound (more than Whole Foods charges

for grass-fed strip steaks from New Zealand!) but they sell hearts trimmed

of valve tissue for $4 or $5 per pound and tongues, I think, for even less.

Dairy, unfortunately, is just cripplingly expensive, and between the high

demand and the legal situation, it's not going to get cheaper any time

soon, though if you think about it, cream and butter are so calorie-dense

that they're really not such a bad deal after all. It's only when you need

a really large number of calories (if you're a big guy like me, or you have

a family) that it can get really problematic.

-

[Guest guest]

[] just because I now get as

> much of my food as possible directly from farmers, often via the

farmers

> market here in the city. So for example, where previously I bought

Country

> Hen eggs at $3.29 per half dozen, now I get genuinely pastured eggs

for

> $4.50 a dozen. Still way more expensive than conventional eggs,

> unfortunately, but also a lot better than Country Hen.

[Rhonda]

Here is Southern Oregon, the local grower's market is April thru Nov

and fresh pastured eggs run $2.50-$2.75 a dozen. Or I can pick up

eggs (pastured of course) from the farm where I buy my raw milk for

only $2.00 a dozen.

[] If you get a freezer, you can also buy meat in bulk directly

from a farmer,

> which can save you even more money. Sometimes they just have

volume

> discounts, and you can always do well if you buy portions of an

animal -- a

> quarter, half or whole cow, for example.

[Rhonda]

This fall we bought a quarter grassfed beef for $382 (cut & wrapped)

which translates to 118+ pounds of meat plus of soup bones - which

came to approx $2.90 a pound. This included roasts, steaks, the

works.

[] sells porterhouse and

> t-bone steaks for something like $15 a pound (more than Whole Foods

charges

> for grass-fed strip steaks from New Zealand!) >

[Rhonda]

See above - for the best deals. Unfortunately we missed out on the

organ meats - maybe next time.

[] Dairy, unfortunately, is just cripplingly expensive, and

between the high

> demand and the legal situation, it's not going to get cheaper any

time soon,

[Rhonda]

Since it's legal to buy raw dairy from the farm here in Oregon, the

price is great. I'm paying $5 a gallon currently, but the price may

very soon be going up to $6 or more gallon.

I'm glad the prices aren't that high here as we are on the very lower

end of the lower end of the middle class <honey do we have enough

quarter's to buy this week's milk?> ;o)

Rhonda

[Guest guest]

,

Our food budget has turned into a " black-hole " ! I have been trying to get a

handle on where the money is going because there seems to be no end. We are a

family of 5 who live in the suburbs. Our three children are young but have

enormous appetites. We live in a restricted neighborhood so there is no way to

have chickens here but we are planning on putting in a few raised beds to grow

some of our own vegetables. This is the best that I can come up with for you,

but it only includes food, no household items. Also keep in mind that most of

these products require an hour or more driving time to pick up so our gas bill

is also greatly increased.

Beef--1/4 cow is $4.50/lb and we get that 3-4 times per year

Chicken--about $2.00/lb

Pork--about $6.00/lb

Milk--$6/gallon and I don't think it is the best that we could be getting, we

are hoping for a better source in the spring

Table Butter--$9.50/lb plus shipping

Cheese--$7/lb plus shipping

Eggs--$2/dozen

Organic vegetables through a somewhat local coop--they run 2-3 times what

conventional veggies do but still less than the grocery store and there is a

better selection of organics.

We use Ozark for bulk purchasing of other items

I bake all of our own sourdough bread, I ferment vegetables and make chicken and

beef stock.

In the end we spend between $1200 and 1400 a month, and that does no include

BO/CLO.

My one friend in town that is also following NT, has a family of 4 and she said

last night that they are spending at least $1000/month on just food, and no

including any type of supplements.

I hope this is the type of information that you are looking for and it helps.

Sherri

Food costs.

I was wondering if people would be willing to share how much they

spend on food when eating the NT way. I have already seen my gorcery

bill skyrocket. I feel good about spending money on real food and

supporting local farmers and shops by eating this way. However, I am

really feeling the bit in the back pocket. \

Green Blessings,

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[Guest guest]

I have a really difficult time sticking to my food budget of $300/wk.

Usually it's more like $350. We are just a family of three. I tell myself

that it is important to buy the very best quality I can and cut back in

other areas but when you think about $1500 bucks a month it stings!

Kim

[Guest guest]

>I was wondering if people would be willing to share how much they

>spend on food when eating the NT way. I have already seen my gorcery

>bill skyrocket. I feel good about spending money on real food and

>supporting local farmers and shops by eating this way. However, I am

>really feeling the bit in the back pocket. \

>

>Green Blessings,

>

Our food bill has DROPPED sharply, but, I have to say we

overspent a lot back when we weren't NT. Back then we would

buy TV dinners at $4 a pop, lots of canned and packaged stuff.

And chips, loads of chips, and packaged cereals. Hardly any

fruits and vegies, but lots of frozen pizzas. My average weekly

grocery bill was probably $200, and I only fed 2 people.

Now ... ok, I get a beef once a year, which runs say $1,400 for

700 lbs of beef. Last year I raised our own chickens for the year,

which ran $140 for 140 lbs. When you buy a beef, you get

all the organs, fat, and bones for " free " (except it takes another

whole freezer to hold them), and one beef provides enough

liver, heart, and kidney for the year, and enough lungs, guts

etc. for chickens and dogs. And more fat than you can use.

It's a learning process to learn how to use and store all

that though, so I don't get it all.

I am still buying potatoes and onions at Costco,

so they aren't organic. Onions were $10 for 50 lbs, potatoes

about the same. We don't do beans much anymore, but they

are cheap too, really cheap. I figure I could do most of our cooking

for $2,000 a year, and that is on a very meat-centric diet, feeding

4-6 people a day. (I spend more than that, but I still buy fun extras!).

This year we grew our own potatoes, which displaced some of that.

We grow most of our own eggs now. I do still have to buy food

for the chickens, but mainly they get a lot of our garbage. Berries

I pick for free (anyone in the Northwest can, I don't know about

the rest of the country), and I can get all the free fruit I can use

from folks with fruit trees that don't want to pick them. I do one

or two big jam sessions in the fall, which provides lots of jam!

And the frozen stuff provides fruit juice and kefir beer. I missed

the apple harvest this year, but next year we are doing cider if

I have anything to say about it. This year we made a year's supply

of apple sauce though, and chutney. And dill pickles, which are

about the best I've tasted anywhere if I do say so myself.

For greens, I buy a share at our local farmer, which runs $300 a year.

I was able to grow more of our greens this year too, esp.

collards and kale, which take up very little space and are

REALLY easy to grow. Lettuce is easy too, I just have to

get more organized (it's work to pick and wash it ...). I'm getting

better with green onions, and we have tons of mint and rosemary

and thyme going now (all easy stuff). I buy herbs at Penzy's too,

but one bag lasts forever in the freezer.

As for other stuff ... I buy dried anchovies and salt at the Korean

store, and I also buy GF flours, which are fairly expensive.

Flours and sugars I regard as the optional part of the diet though,

as are some of my more fun foods, like canned anchovies and

olives and nuts (I'm starting some nut trees though ... and learning

to make " canned anchovies " ). But I'm convinced you

CAN live NT on a budget ... you just have

to do it like in the old days, which involves a lot of buying

in bulk, keeping a small garden, and not going to the

grocery store for small quantities. Also knowing what your

" staples " are and revolving your menus around those things

(beef and potatoes, in our case: wow, is that stereotypical

or what???).

It's a learning curve though. I trimmed our budget as part of

a contest with my DH, who challenged me to live on $x a month.

It's a fun challenge (I get to keep the leftover money is the

incentive ...). I used a spreadsheet to figure out where most

of the money went ... surprisingly, one of our biggest costs

was SODA POP! (I was buying it for employees mainly, and

for my dh, who, when he saw the costs, promptly dropped

it from his diet).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

,

I've found that food shopping is now a balance between time and

money: the more time I spend finding/drving to get NT food, the less

money I spend. As an extreme example, I've spent almost 2 hours

driving to get raw milk at $1.50/gallon. Other times I've spent

$5/gallon plus shipping (~$25 for 4-1/2 gallons) because I can't find

the time. My freezer is indispensible since once I find a good source

I buy as much as is practical at one time.

To save money I buy 'dry goods' from an organic buying club, meat in

bulk from local farmers, veggies from a CSA in the summer, have my own

garden, and buy diary & eggs from a very small Amish store. Now that I

know where to shop, the dollar amount comparison pre-NT food bills to

NT food bills is probably about the same, but the effort and

convenience isn't. Also, we eat much more seasonally than before.

BTW is anyone out there from Allegany or Garrett Co., land or

close by in WV or Pa?

All the best,

Jan

western land

--- In , " " <magdaverte@y...>

wrote:

>

>

> I was wondering if people would be willing to share how much they

> spend on food when eating the NT way. I have already seen my gorcery

> bill skyrocket. I feel good about spending money on real food and

> supporting local farmers and shops by eating this way. However, I am

> really feeling the bit in the back pocket. \

>

> Green Blessings,

>

[Guest guest]

Rhonda-

>Here is Southern Oregon, the local grower's market is April thru Nov

>and fresh pastured eggs run $2.50-$2.75 a dozen. Or I can pick up

>eggs (pastured of course) from the farm where I buy my raw milk for

>only $2.00 a dozen.

I wish I had access to prices like those! I'm just trying a new source of

eggs (pastured Araucana eggs) and at $7/dozen, it's unfortunate that they

seem to be appreciably better than my $4.50/doz eggs -- harder shells,

darker yolks, firmer whites. I don't know that the difference is worth the

difference, though.

>See above - for the best deals. Unfortunately we missed out on the

>organ meats - maybe next time.

I'm going to be getting a quarter soon, plus, I hope, a lot of organs. Or

maybe I'll try to keep getting organs from Hawthorne, since I'm pretty sure

their meat is more nutritious than most other farms'.

>Since it's legal to buy raw dairy from the farm here in Oregon, the

>price is great. I'm paying $5 a gallon currently, but the price may

>very soon be going up to $6 or more gallon.

$5/gal for milk? I don't think that's too far above market for

conventional supermarket milk, actually, though I only buy cream because I

can't tolerate the carbs in milk.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>and one beef provides enough

>liver, heart, and kidney for the year,

How can this be? I just split a whole beef heart with my girlfriend last

night, and it didn't come close to amounting to a meal for me. Granted,

from the size I'd have to guess it was more of a calf heart, but adult

bison hearts I've gotten in the past haven't been more than a few times

larger. That's just a few meals, particularly if you're cooking for more

than one person. Heck, I have a package of four lamb hearts defrosting

now, and each one is maybe the size of a baby's fist at most.

As to liver, how much do you actually get from a cow? I have to order more

bison liver tomorrow, so I ought to ask how much they get per bison.

And kidneys are pretty small too, aren't they?

-

[Guest guest]

Jan-

>As an extreme example, I've spent almost 2 hours

>driving to get raw milk at $1.50/gallon. Other times I've spent

>$5/gallon plus shipping (~$25 for 4-1/2 gallons) because I can't find

>the time.

If you incorporate gas and mileage into your cost analysis, you might find

that the $5/gal-plus-shipping milk is a lot more cost-competitive with the

$1.50/gal milk than you think.

-

[Guest guest]

Kim-

>I have my first bison heart at .9 lbs.

The entire heart weighs less than a pound? Huh. I seem to remember having

larger bison hearts, maybe 3-4#, but it's been awhile, so I'm not

sure. Certainly last night's beef heart was right in that neigbhorhood,

though.

>I was hoping to prepare it tonight

>or tomorrow. The NT book only has a recipe for kabobs. How do you prepare

>yours?

My girlfriend just simmers them until they're rare, because she likes the

flavor so much, and we slice them and eat them plain except for some

salt. I'm going to try making lamb heart kofta per a recipe in " Innards

and Other Variety Meats " very, very soon, though, so I'll let you know how

that turns out.

-

[Guest guest]

,

The comparision is $19.75 ($1.50/gal + gas) versus $43.00 ($5/gal +

S & H) for 4.5 gallons of milk.

The specifics are: $1.50/gallon milk really costs $19.75 ($6.75 milk

+ ~$13 gas (100 miles round trip, $1.90/gal gas, ~15 mpg)). The same

amount of milk (but $5/gal) sent UPS Ground costs $43.00 ($51.50 milk

& S & H - ~$8.50 box, etc that I can return later). It's still not a

fair comparison because I have to supply and fill my own containers

with the cheaper milk, and those cows (mostly Guernseys, a few

Holsteins) are not always fed an ideal diet. The $5/gal milk (from

Jerseys) couldn't be any better...

I felt that I got an earlier Christmas present when I found a closer

source (less than 20 miles away) that is $2/gallon, a better quality

than the $1.50 milk, and from Jersey cows. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Also, this farmer can direct me to other local Amish sources. Yipee!

All the best,

Jan

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> Jan-

>

> >As an extreme example, I've spent almost 2 hours

> >driving to get raw milk at $1.50/gallon. Other times I've spent

> >$5/gallon plus shipping (~$25 for 4-1/2 gallons) because I can't

find

> >the time.

>

> If you incorporate gas and mileage into your cost analysis, you

might find

> that the $5/gal-plus-shipping milk is a lot more cost-competitive

with the

> $1.50/gal milk than you think.

>

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

> I just split a whole beef heart with my girlfriend last

> night, and it didn't come close to amounting to a meal for me.

-

I have my first bison heart at .9 lbs. I was hoping to prepare it tonight

or tomorrow. The NT book only has a recipe for kabobs. How do you prepare

yours?

Thanks,

Kim

[Guest guest]

I have experienced the same thing. I'm getting very motivated to

plant a vegetable garden next summer, and to look into buying

beef by the half or quarter. I'm not at all good at budgeting and

tracking spending; I'm just hoping that avoiding restaurants,

junk foods, OTC medicines, and doctor visits is somehow

balancing the increased cost of our basic foods. The biggest

weakness for our family is impulsively going out to eat

- and we don't like cheap restaurants, either. So I concentrate

on having a plan for dinner every night.

Aven

> I was wondering if people would be willing to share how much they

> spend on food when eating the NT way. I have already seen my gorcery

> bill skyrocket. I feel good about spending money on real food and

> supporting local farmers and shops by eating this way. However, I am

> really feeling the bit in the back pocket. \

>

> Green Blessings,

>

[Guest guest]

> My girlfriend just simmers them until they're rare, because she likes the

> flavor so much, and we slice them and eat them plain except for some

> salt.

,

Sorry to be a pain but do you slice it before you simmer it and do you use

any oil. When I think of simmering I usually think covered in water. Do

you mean sauté? It isn't like a steak so it is somewhat foreign to me. Is

the flavor gamier, or is it similar to muscle?

Thanks a million,

Kim

[Guest guest]

Kim-

>Sorry to be a pain but do you slice it before you simmer it and do you use

>any oil. When I think of simmering I usually think covered in water.

Yeah, covered in water, and sliced afterwards. ly it bothers me a

little to cook out some of the nutrition into the water, but I haven't

gotten around to figuring anything out.

Make sure not to overcook it, though! It might take as little as five

minutes or so -- bring the water to a boil first. You should eat it as

rare as you're comfortable with, for both gustatory and nutritional reasons.

>It isn't like a steak so it is somewhat foreign to me. Is

>the flavor gamier, or is it similar to muscle?

It's similar to regular muscle meat, but with a unique and pleasant flavor

of its own. I'm not sure how to describe it, though, but one advantage of

the simmering method is that you eat the heart in its pure, unadulterated

form, so you can find out for yourself.

-

[Guest guest]

>

>Yeah, covered in water, and sliced afterwards. ly it bothers me a

>little to cook out some of the nutrition into the water, but I haven't

>gotten around to figuring anything out.

Maybe you could save the water to use in soup or broth or something.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Canfield

-God grades on the cross, not on the curve. -Anonymous

3:36: " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that

believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. "

[Guest guest]

>> Since it's legal to buy raw dairy from the farm here in Oregon,

Uh, no it's not. You have a cow share, perhaps?

Lynn S.

in Oregon

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

> Maybe you could save the water to use in soup or broth or something.

Or steam?

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

Doesn't the law read legal off the farm with three or less cows giving

milk...larger needs a license I believe.

Catz

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:07:05 -0800, Lynn Siprelle <lynn@...> wrote:

> >> Since it's legal to buy raw dairy from the farm here in Oregon,

>

> Uh, no it's not. You have a cow share, perhaps?

>

> Lynn S.

> in Oregon

[Guest guest]

>. The biggest

>weakness for our family is impulsively going out to eat

>- and we don't like cheap restaurants, either. So I concentrate

>on having a plan for dinner every night.

>Aven

That was one of our biggest expenses too! It helps that

I CAN'T eat out now ... but ... I also discovered that

one can cook a steak, really really fast (esp. if one eats

it half raw, like I do). I freeze them so they are easy

to separate, and plop the whole frozen thing onto

a cast iron hot grill pan. Steak is our new " fast food " .

Add a side of kimchi ... maybe some oven fries or

hash browns, and you got dindin. Even if we

were paying $10 a steak (we aren't) it would be

cheaper than going out to eat.

Also we use the crock pot a lot. Throw some frozen

ribs or shanks in it at breakfast time, they are done

by dinner.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Heidi-

>

>>and one beef provides enough

>>liver, heart, and kidney for the year,

>

>How can this be? I just split a whole beef heart with my girlfriend last

>night, and it didn't come close to amounting to a meal for me. Granted,

>from the size I'd have to guess it was more of a calf heart, but adult

>bison hearts I've gotten in the past haven't been more than a few times

>larger. That's just a few meals, particularly if you're cooking for more

>than one person. Heck, I have a package of four lamb hearts defrosting

>now, and each one is maybe the size of a baby's fist at most.

Wow, I guess it depends on your appetite! One beef heart

a year is plenty for me. I got 2 this time, and could've had

3, because they butchered 3 beef and no one else wanted

the organs.

>As to liver, how much do you actually get from a cow? I have to order more

>bison liver tomorrow, so I ought to ask how much they get per bison.

I didn't weigh it, but it was, say 2 1/2 feet long and a foot wide?

If you eat a lot of liver, I guess it would go fast, but I eat liver

maybe once a week, which is plenty for me (the rest

of the family won't eat it except in pate, so some goes

to the animals). Again, I just got one, but I could've got 3.

If you eat a lot of organs, you should check with the

butchers. Most folks who get cows butchered don't

keep the organs and they just get tossed. It's not

legal to sell them from home-grown animals, but

you could probably make a deal with the farmer (or

buy a share in the cow, or get them for your dog). Fat is

even worse, there is SO MUCH they throw out.

> And kidneys are pretty small too, aren't they?

About 8 inches long, I think? I can't eat them

plain, I mix them with steak.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Wow, I guess it depends on your appetite! One beef heart

>a year is plenty for me. I got 2 this time, and could've had

>3, because they butchered 3 beef and no one else wanted

>the organs.

Well, I love heart, but it's not like it's calorie-dense. According to the

USDA database (for whatever that's worth) 100g has all of 165 calories,

with 28.48g of protein and 4.73g of fat. The actually muscle meat of the

heart is pretty lean.

-

[Guest guest]

> > >> Since it's legal to buy raw dairy from the farm here in Oregon,

> >

> > Uh, no it's not. You have a cow share, perhaps?

> >

> > Lynn S.

> > in Oregon

Catz is correct! 3 or less milking cows and you can buy it directly

from the farm. My farmer only has one Guernsey currently and she

just freshened last Sunday. I bought 1 1/2 gallons of 1st day

colostrum, went back on the 3rd day and bought 2 more gallons (by

then it was more milk than colostrum) and then today bought 3 gallons

of milk (one for my folks) each gallon having 1 quart of cream on

top. She had lost electricity this weekend due to the snow storm

that came through her knocking down a tree in the unfortunate path of

the power line. So I actually got to pick up my 3 gallons where they

lay nestled in the snow! Anyway, she's on the look out for a 2nd

cow, Guernsey preferably, but will take a Jersey if anyone knows of

one as far south as Northern Calif or north up into Washington, east

probably into Idaho. The calf that was born last Sunday will be

freezer meat for them when he grows up. Oh well... But yes, it's

legal. There are a few farmers in the southern Oregon area selling.

It means a bit of a country drive to get to any of them, but that's

OK. I found her going thru the realmilk.com website and calling the

contact person. So if you're in the Portland area or Eugene area you

too should be able to find a farmer selling from the farm.

Rhonda

[Guest guest]

[Heidi] and one beef provides enough liver, heart, and kidney for the

year, and enough lungs, guts etc. for chickens and dogs. And more fat

than you can use.

[MAP] I agree with that this is a pretty crazy statement, at

least the heart part! One beef heart is enough heart for one person

for about a month on a low-heart diet, much less otherwise. For an

average family, though, one beef heart is good for about one meal.

Livers are huge, though, and are only suitable for eating in small

servings, so one beef liver could last one person quite a few months,

maybe even a whole year, but when you divide by the number of family

members one year would be implausible for most folks. Kidneys are

similar in terms of serving size, and even though you get two per cow

and they're reasonably big, they're not big enough to last more than a

few months for one person if you eat about one serving a week (typical

for me). My serving size of organs is usually between 50 and 100

grams.

You get a ton of kidney fat, though, far more than I personally could

ever begin to make a dent in over a year's time, but for a family with

different culinary habits wherein it was used as a replacement for

lard or ghee, I could imagine one cow's worth actually getting used up

within a month or so. Of course, there are other fat deposits too...

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay