Re: Love Questions....-

[Guest guest]

" " wrote:

> That's very well said and it's exactly what I was coaching her

> around; being in that space of an undefended heart without a demand

> for how he responds. --

- I confess, I'm unpeaceful in this area and looking at a lot of

my stuff. I'm liking all the different flavors that come up for me in

this one area.

I'm going to dialog with this on you so that I can look at it....

Let's do a fur check here....how's your neck? My fur is in place so far.

Coaching someone to go beyond their self- imposed boundaries and look

for love, appreciation and approval from outside themselves appears

counter productive to me. I like the first part of that equasion -

going beyond boundaries, but not the latter - the external LAA trap.

Perhaps I did not hear you correctly.

Your happiness indicated to me that you were pleased by her bravado

and also that they appeared to be getting a relationship together and

you felt you had a part to play in all that which for me merely points

to perhaps a desire you have of being in a relationship and not

realizing that not being in one is just as beautiful because the only

relationship worth having first is a wonderful one with yourself!

The only coaching I would ever want is for me to heal my relationship

with myself. For me I would asked so why write the letter? And if

you write the letter what will you get? And if you got that what

would you have??? and on and on and on....

If THAT, my primary relationship with myself is working, ALL secondary

relationships will take care of themselves - I need do nothing. When

that primary relationship is in tact - people are delightful bonuses

but certainly not worthy of actually seeking - because the seeking in

itself is looking for LAA on the outside...

These are just my thoughts in this moment and what your post bought

out in me. I loved that your post bought this up for me.

Thanks and I look forward to hearing back from you...for me this is

challenging slippery stuff and while the rest of this board denigrates

into humor routines for godsakes i love how serious I am - there's

nothing funny about this stuff at all!!!! *giggle* and frank may I say

your emoticons were most impressive did you make those up?....Jan

[Guest guest]

" Boyd " wrote:

> " " wrote:

> But does that mean that we give up entirely on having a romantic

> relationship?

***For me, yes, I'm willing to let go of this fantasy because I think

hanging onto it is keeping me from my freedom. That was one of the

most powerful things that said to me at the intensive. I had

this story of my life - I asked her if I had to let go of the parts of

the story - (I thought I could keep the parts I thought were

real/factual) - She responded -

Only if you want your freedom...

> FB -My context for it is " I am whole and complete. There is

> nothing that I am missing or need. Love is present. Let me share my

> beautiful self with my beautiful Self. "

***So if this is REALLY true you just talked yourself out of a

" special " relationship - everyone you meet can be the fulfillment of

this statement - so it goes deeper than that doesn't it - digging

deeper for me is where I'm going also.

>

> [FB] You may be right. I'm sure you're right about my being touched

because I remember being in that space with such fondness.

***Oh you and me both - that's why it's such a draw - but I'm

beginning to see it as the ultimate drug whatever...there's an

addiction behind my memory - not one of truth I suspect.

> FB - It has seemed easier to love me in the presence of another who

> was so convinced in my worthiness of love. It was like there

> developed a momentum to drop my story about being fragmented,

> imperfect and incomplete, and for awhile I rested in peace.

***When I read this, I see why it's so painful to mirror back to you

feelings of unworthiness - because you so believe those feelings are

there. As long as you have this belief system, do you not think the

mercy of the universe will pull in to you someone who initially gives

you feelings of worthiness only to pull the rug out after you're

hooked? That's my pattern with different adjectives!!!! and I'm over it!

>

>

> FB -Obviously there are things that I don't know about love, or

aren't willing to accept, because I have a limited experience of loves

expression in my life. [end FB}

***Isn't this the best place to be???? I love reading Undefended Love

because this is their basic premise....it's all about falling in love

with yourself...the only game in town.....once you fall so deeply in

love with yourself...you don't depend on the other person....so that

feeling of intense love when two are joined stays because the other

person has the freedom to be whomever they choose to be just as you do.

Oh - I love meeting up like this - neither of us knowing - just

putting it out there so we can see what comes up!!!!

Knock Knock

Who's There?

Loving....

Loving Who?

There's only one answer to this....

One Love - Jan

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/17/2003 7:46:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,

scarlett_jt@... writes:

> If THAT, my primary relationship with myself is working, ALL secondary

> relationships will take care of themselves - I need do nothing. When

> that primary relationship is in tact - people are delightful bonuses

> but certainly not worthy of actually seeking - because the

> seeking in

> itself is looking for LAA on the outside...

Hi Jan:

This is a concept that I find extremely confusing. I can go with the idea that

the primary relationship has to work before anything else can.....but how does a

secondary relationship occur without at least a little seeking? I mean, someone

has to take a step toward it, don't they? What if the whole world becomes

self-actualized and nobody is seeking anymore...do the relationships all go

away? I know that's a goofy concept, but I don't understand how to apply a

totally " non-seeking " philosophy.

Marla

[Guest guest]

marla wrote:

>

> Hi Jan:

>

> This is a concept that I find extremely confusing. I can go with

the idea that the primary relationship has to work before anything

else can.....but how does a secondary relationship occur without at

least a little seeking? I mean, someone has to take a step toward it,

don't they? What if the whole world becomes self-actualized and

nobody is seeking anymore...do the relationships all go away? I know

that's a goofy concept, but I don't understand how to apply a totally

" non-seeking " philosophy.

>

>

> Marla

Hi Marla -

Byron has a rare satsang tape about creationism - the idea of

visualizing your life as you wish it to be and well kind of

actualizing it into being. She's not really for that.

She says just let your partners show up. Getting to the place where

you trust life enough to allow life to bring to you everything you

need. Your only job is to inquire, allow stories to drop away and

journey inward to your essence. That's your primary relationship.

If you think you need to do something to get your " needs " met so you

manipulate your world to get those needs met, then by virtue you may

not be in touch with your very essence. For instance, your desire to

share your life (a cognitive concept) will color how you see people.

This very process removes you from being completely absorbed by your

essence - you're in God's and Bod's business!!!! Your business is

staying in touch with you. I suspect that if you do that, you will

*know* what to do next - you will *know* who to invite into your

life...you will know what's true for you.

This is what makes sense for me and gives me peace. How does it sound

for you? Anybody else have pointers, ideas?

Blessings - Jan

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/17/2003 11:10:40 PM Central Daylight Time,

tbarron@... writes:

>

> Hi, Marla. How much do you know about ? She seems pretty

> self-actualized to me, and she seems to have vibrant, dynamic

> relationships with everyone around her. In fact, that seems to be the

> case across the board in my experience. The more actualized and awake

> a person is, the more and better relationships they seem to have. (I

> don't think that means I could get enlightened by having thousands of

> relationships, though.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. I think I'm getting tangled up in the logic

of the scenario. Maybe is not seeking, but it would seem to me that

those she draws to her *are* seeking. I'm just wondering if it doesn't take at

least one person to seek in order to initiate a relationship.

It's possible that I am just nitpicking (for which I have a great

talent)....

Marla

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 7/17/2003 7:46:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,

scarlett_jt@... writes:

>

> > If THAT, my primary relationship with myself is working, ALL secondary

> > relationships will take care of themselves - I need do nothing. When

> > that primary relationship is in tact - people are delightful bonuses

> > but certainly not worthy of actually seeking - because the

> > seeking in

> > itself is looking for LAA on the outside...

>

>

> Hi Jan:

>

> This is a concept that I find extremely confusing. I can go with the

> idea that the primary relationship has to work before anything else

> can.....but how does a secondary relationship occur without at least

> a little seeking? I mean, someone has to take a step toward it,

> don't they? What if the whole world becomes self-actualized and

> nobody is seeking anymore...do the relationships all go away? I know

> that's a goofy concept, but I don't understand how to apply a

> totally " non-seeking " philosophy.

Hi, Marla. How much do you know about ? She seems pretty

self-actualized to me, and she seems to have vibrant, dynamic

relationships with everyone around her. In fact, that seems to be the

case across the board in my experience. The more actualized and awake

a person is, the more and better relationships they seem to have. (I

don't think that means I could get enlightened by having thousands of

relationships, though.

I would have the same difficulty you express with trying to apply

" non-seeking " at this point on my path. For me, that would be

" pretending myself beyond my evolution " as they say, trying to act

more with it and awake than I really am.

What seems to work for my at this point along the way is to focus on

loving, no matter what. Loving myself, loving the other person, loving

what I'm doing, loving what's happening to me, loving the birds I see

flying by, loving whatever comes up. Whenever I notice a reaction that

doesn't feel loving and gentle and happy, it's time to inquire. Of

course, I get lots of those non-loving, non-gentle, unhappy reactions,

so I get lots of opportunities to inquire. That gives me a chance

to practice loving myself when I'm not happy.

I don't know if that answers your question at all. It was helpful for

me to tell myself this again, so thank you for the opportunity. Be

gentle to yourself.

love,

Tom

[Guest guest]

> ***Please help me understand... everything I've experienced and heard

> from and others who I felt were *in love* indicates that the

> love I'm looking for CAN'T be found *out there* but *in here*.

>

> [FB] Hum, is that true? I don't know. I have certainly experienced

it as coming from out there.

***I know it " felt " like it came from out there, according to A Course

In Miracles, , Tolle, Chodron, and just about every author that I

use to point out the way to me, it only feels like it comes from out

there - it's just you experiencing you. And if you were enlightened -

every person, place, thing would make you feel pretty much that same

way and be used as vehicles to take you deeper into your own essence.

***Quotes - No two people have ever been in love with one another -

ever - it's impossible - there's only one.

(FB)What I do know is that my experience of her was wonderful and I

look forward to love like that being in my life again. [end FB}

***If you were told that your attachment to this past story kept you

from knowing the truth and experiencing a love far greater than what

that woman or any other could offer you, would you drop it?

> [FB] I've never heard it (the creationism tape) but I'd be

interested to. I've wondered about this idea of imagining your reality

into existence too. There are times when it has seemed effective, and

times when I loose interest. I do believe that what you focus on grows

in your life, as does what you resist.

***I'd be delighted to send you the tape. Please send a $4 check made

out to Jan Owen - Post Office Box 1407 - Largo - FL 33779 - On the

memo line of the check please put " Creationism Tape " .

Nice talking with you too .....Jan

[Guest guest]

Marla,

I want to think that this is what you meant! LOL

If really felt that " evolution cannot occur until it is ready "

That " no one shifts until they do "

That if I have an agenda then I am not inquiring "

etc.

What is this all about?

has seminars

has apparent agendas, " I give the school, the intensives and that

means... "

may think that her agendas have pertinence

etc

yes. I can see that too.

I do see a human, that believes that she had a vision. She is excited

about such a thing. I have seen that.

She believes there is a need. I have heard that people came to see her,

they sought her out. I saw that.

Her ideas are not that unique, they are though, very easy as there are

simple steps. If anything, and I do not know at all, her methods

are for all. I have been in her presence several times, and I see a

human. I see a person that wants to know. And she keeps learning every

time she listens. I have watched with careful eyes, looking for

something unnatural, something very ethereal, it isn't there. I see a

sweet human, one who believes in herself, nothing more.

We are that.

Lovingly,

April

[Guest guest]

Dear April,

I'd bet the farm that does not think anyone has a need.

I'd wager she would not attach a meaning to " I give the school, the

intensives and that means... "

I don't hear from her that she believes her own PR. I see her showing

up because she knows and likes to do it.

How do I react when I think the thought that there is a need for this

work? That I need it (when I'm not doing it)? There's stress in

those beliefs.

How do I react when I think the thought that she has an agenda? I

expect that agenda to be fulfilled...I expect to attend a seminar and

receive something transformative. I don't just show up. And I get

evangelical about The Work.

I'm sure as hell not in my own business when I think these thoughts

and believe them...and since I have learned from that being in

another's business is stressful, I can't imagine that she'd fall prey

to the mind that way. Who knows?

As for her being excited about having had a vision...one reason I

respect so highly is that she doesn't make it all about her

vision; quite the contrary. The vision was just the beginning. She

continued to inquire into her thoughts.

It's truer for me to say that I have been excited about my " visions, "

and that excitement has often led me into delusion because I thought

the vision was " it. "

It's so interesting to think about all this, and turn it all around.

Love, Carol

> Marla,

> I want to think that this is what you meant! LOL

> If really felt that " evolution cannot occur until it is ready "

> That " no one shifts until they do "

> That if I have an agenda then I am not inquiring "

>

> etc.

>

> What is this all about?

> has seminars

> has apparent agendas, " I give the school, the intensives and

that

> means... "

> may think that her agendas have pertinence

> etc

>

> yes. I can see that too.

>

> I do see a human, that believes that she had a vision. She is

excited

> about such a thing. I have seen that.

> She believes there is a need. I have heard that people came to see

her,

> they sought her out. I saw that.

>

> Her ideas are not that unique, they are though, very easy as there

are

> simple steps. If anything, and I do not know at all, her

methods

> are for all. I have been in her presence several times, and I see a

> human. I see a person that wants to know. And she keeps learning

every

> time she listens. I have watched with careful eyes, looking for

> something unnatural, something very ethereal, it isn't there. I see

a

> sweet human, one who believes in herself, nothing more.

>

> We are that.

>

> Lovingly,

>

> April

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this mes

[Guest guest]

Carol,

I don't know, I have heard say that she has a commitment to do

these schools. She did use those words, she said she also felt bad that

she could not make one of her commitments due to eye surgery. She had

to believe the doctor as that was his business. She also said that she

has this story and she wants to keep it. She makes commitments to do

intensives and the school and she is fine with it. This was said at the

last cleanse.

I don't know what she thinks, I hear what she says, I don't know if she

believes her own PR. Do I think she sees a need to " ask " ? Yeah, I

think so. I hear that, I hear that when she feels confused she asks.

She also shows others how to do that. If she did not feel a

satisfaction or that it gave her something by doing this, why is there

such a " commitment " ?

I don't even care if she does or does not. This may or may not be a

story that she likes and keeps. It would appear that could have

days of just being with what is in front of her, so why the schools, the

intensives, the travel? If there are no new thoughts, then why? This

just came to me and I do not even have an issue other than to ask you as

you know her and I don't know her much at all. (and I do not need to

be right, I am curious that perhaps there is fear over there about

having or not having an attachment to her own work.)

I just listen very carefully, LOL. Perhaps doing schools is much like

this board, it is a constant tune up. Could be as true. I do think she

does this for her, certainly. Her agenda might be noticing how she feels

more with herself when she does them, I have zero idea. The thoughts

came to me with regard to " asking " .

I have heard that used to approach people in the grocery store,

she would leave and go off on an " adventure " what was this? Was this no

agenda, " I just want to love me with that person? " When she went down

the alley with the gang members, what was that? She approached them,

what was it? I seriously do not know. There were agendas at the

school, did she not make them? See, I don't see a problem with agendas

as long as we are OK with whatever happens.

I make them all day long.

I could be way off and just not at that point of understanding and I am

good with that.

Lovingly,

April

[Guest guest]

Hey April,

I don't see your thoughts as way off, I just think 's kinda from

another planet. I don't " know " her any better than you do, inasmuch

as we can ever " know " another...I've just been around a bit longer, so

my impression is that we all have thoughts, and we can believe them or

not. speaks of following the " voice, " and it can sound like

" brush your teeth " or " have eye surgery, " " arrange for a school in

October, " or " cancel your appointments. "

I don't remember her saying that she felt bad about not being able to

meet her commitment in the Carolinas last fall (it was about a really

bad upper respiratory infection); I remember her saying that she

honors her commitments, that she made a commitment to do those

programs, that her doctor said not to go, and that she was peaceful

with that, following orders, " loving what is. " She said it was the

first time she'd ever cancelled anything in 16 years due to illness.

IF she has an agenda it would appear to be, " Honor thy

commitments...and it doesn't mean you'll be there. "

Love, Carol

> Carol,

> I don't know, I have heard say that she has a commitment to do

> these schools. She did use those words, she said she also felt bad

that

> she could not make one of her commitments due to eye surgery. She

had

> to believe the doctor as that was his business. She also said that

she

> has this story and she wants to keep it. She makes commitments to do

> intensives and the school and she is fine with it. This was said at

the

> last cleanse.

>

> I don't know what she thinks, I hear what she says, I don't know if

she

> believes her own PR. Do I think she sees a need to " ask " ? Yeah, I

> think so. I hear that, I hear that when she feels confused she

asks.

> She also shows others how to do that. If she did not feel a

> satisfaction or that it gave her something by doing this, why is

there

> such a " commitment " ?

>

> I don't even care if she does or does not. This may or may not be a

> story that she likes and keeps. It would appear that could

have

> days of just being with what is in front of her, so why the schools,

the

> intensives, the travel? If there are no new thoughts, then why?

This

> just came to me and I do not even have an issue other than to ask

you as

> you know her and I don't know her much at all. (and I do not need

to

> be right, I am curious that perhaps there is fear over there about

> having or not having an attachment to her own work.)

>

> I just listen very carefully, LOL. Perhaps doing schools is much

like

> this board, it is a constant tune up. Could be as true. I do think

she

> does this for her, certainly. Her agenda might be noticing how she

feels

> more with herself when she does them, I have zero idea. The

thoughts

> came to me with regard to " asking " .

>

> I have heard that used to approach people in the grocery

store,

> she would leave and go off on an " adventure " what was this? Was

this no

> agenda, " I just want to love me with that person? " When she went

down

> the alley with the gang members, what was that? She approached

them,

> what was it? I seriously do not know. There were agendas at the

> school, did she not make them? See, I don't see a problem with

agendas

> as long as we are OK with whatever happens.

> I make them all day long.

>

>

> I could be way off and just not at that point of understanding and I

am

> good with that.

>

> Lovingly,

> April

>

>

> [Non-text portio