Re: Re: tsh levels and hyper

[Guest guest]

Yes, Niki, I think you are right. I do get so impatient. Sometimes i feel like I'm so close and yet so far! In December I felt better than I'd felt in years, then there was a sudden death in the family I handled that ok, but crashed in February. I think I added the synthroid too soon after the armour increase, in my impatience. Yes, I am sensitive to meds, despite the fact that I am on hydrocortisone .725 mg.

So, I tried going back to the three times a day dosing today and felt the anxiety lessen. That is a hassle, but 3 times a day seems best for me. Thanks for the support. I will keep ya'll posted.

Steph

[Guest guest]

Niki, I think you're right.

I'm suppressed, which I need to be because of the cancer. According to

my endo, everything is hunky dory. However, I'm fairly sure I'm still

hypo despite that low TSH - low BBT, fatigue, brain fog, low FT4 (endo

didn't run FT3) etc. Thank goodness I also have Dr. R. in my court and

therefore a hope of feeling better one day.

I'm certainly not on too MUCH hormone, nor am I hyper.

Niki wrote:

> Sue, that is not true. If you're hypo, on thyroid meds, your TSH is

> completely suppressed, and your ft's are still very low in the range,

> you are STILL HYPO. After being on thyroid hormone supplementation,

> the TSH level is irrelevant...it means NOTHING.

>

> The symptoms of hypo and hyper often overlap. Many have anxiety,

> heart pounding/palps, etc., when still extremely hypo. I did, and I

> know many others on this board have experienced the same. At the

> time, my ft's were still quite low, but my TSH had been completely

> suppressed for months (<0.01). I was still hypo. When I was first

> diagnosed, my TSH was 0.9...but my ft's were at the bottom of the lab

> range and I was barely functioning...I was extremely hypo.

>

> Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is a good doc who

> truly knows how to treat thyroid successfully understands this and

> typically only continues to run this lab to follow " established "

> protocol, but does not use this level to determine a course of

> treatment.

>

>

>>

>> Kate,

>>

>> If you are HYPO and go on meds and then all of a sudden your TSH is

>> suppressed, you have obviously gone hyper by too much med... That

> is why

>> they test the levels. Then the hard part comes in ‹ setting aside

> those

>> levels and looking at the person and how they feel.

>>

>> Sue

[Guest guest]

Niki—why even run labs if you are not going to go by them? I got lost on that point...

If you are hypo and start on meds or increase your dose and your tsh is now highly suppresed then you have over medicated yourself into the hyper range... I never said TSH is the indicator... I just said it cannot be ignored if it is SEVERLY suppressed... How do you think they take labs for hyper?

Not everyone is hypo. Some are hyper and need to UP their TSH... It’s individual.

Sue, that is not true. If you're hypo, on thyroid meds, your TSH is

completely suppressed, and your ft's are still very low in the range,

you are STILL HYPO. After being on thyroid hormone supplementation,

the TSH level is irrelevant...it means NOTHING.

The symptoms of hypo and hyper often overlap. Many have anxiety,

heart pounding/palps, etc., when still extremely hypo. I did, and I

know many others on this board have experienced the same. At the

time, my ft's were still quite low, but my TSH had been completely

suppressed for months (<0.01). I was still hypo. When I was first

diagnosed, my TSH was 0.9...but my ft's were at the bottom of the lab

range and I was barely functioning...I was extremely hypo.

Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is a good doc who

truly knows how to treat thyroid successfully understands this and

typically only continues to run this lab to follow " established "

protocol, but does not use this level to determine a course of

treatment.

>

> > Sue,

> >

> > The original question was about the TSH level. And why do

doctors freak

> > out about it being suppressed. My point to your info about

> > hyperthyroidism, was simply that TSH doesn't mean anything on

> > meds. Symptoms, temperature and Free's are what should matter to

the

> > doctor. That was ALL I was trying to say. Yes, high doses can

cause

> > people to go hyper, but on some one on meds the TSH is not what

should be

> > looked at to determine that, that was what I was trying to point

out.

> >

> > Kate

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

90% of all labs are run for the purpose of covering the doc's derriere. If you read the TSBME website, you will find a large number of docs cited for treating without proper testing. This is especially true where endocrine issues are concerned. jytdtp wrote: Niki—why even run labs if you are not going to go by them? I got lost on that point...

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[Guest guest]

90% of all labs are run for the purpose of covering the doc's derriere. I wouldn’t want a doc who changed my meds and then didn’t run labs, yikes! I think we are all saying the same thing, just using different words...

If you read the TSBME website, you will find a large number of docs cited for treating without proper testing. This is especially true where endocrine issues are concerned.

jytdtp wrote:

Niki˜why even run labs if you are not going to go by them? I got lost on that point...

[Guest guest]

Let's say that a person has a healthy thyroid that happily makes it's own hormone, upon stimulation from it's coworker, the pituitary. So, it makes more hormone in response to what is also a very healthy pituitary gland. Healthy pituitary and a healthy thyroid---that's how we were created to produce it, normally. But, let's say that it's a sick Hashimoto's thyroid gland, becoming sicker, more nodular, etc.....Pituitary is allowed to stimulate it. It then starts making hormone. The antibodies then attack it. It then gets sicker and stops production, forms even more nodules, and gets more enlarged and fibrotic, after so many yrs of trying to produce thyroid hormone, and every time it does, these antibodies attack it. A Hashimoto's gland that has been through the mill, going through these same changes, yr after yr, is going to be PROBably permanently enlarged, fibrotic (hardened, more or less), but will always have these little "hounds" after it, every single time it produces it's own hormone. Of course, it can become shrunken, and we'd better pray that it does harden in the shrunken position, at least we won't suffocate on acct of the gland. This is the very definition of Hashimoto's Thyroiditis.

Ok, hit rewind, and that same person gets a bout or two or more of thyroiditis, has all these symptoms, gets diagnosed properly with Hashi's, and has a very adequate amt of thyroid hormone prescribed to them (whichever one works for them), so that they feel well, but according to the Free values of what's available to them, plus the way they feel. Doctors who understand the inner workings of a Hashi's gland know that the thyroid gland itself has to become a nil and void "bystander", no longer producing hormone, so that it won't swell, harden, get nodules, and cause these future problems. All the hormone is replaced from the outside of the body, so that it doesn't have to work and get attacked. If they have a .00 something for TSH, all that means is that the pituitary has ALSO become useless, got fired, as to it's original, natural job, for those purposes. It's producing other substances for other reasons, but it's job is over, as far as this particular job, so it's now resting on it's laurels, so to speak. This is why those Free thyroid hormone values are so so important in time and place, absolutely #1, and is THE best lab for monitoring this. My TSH is a .0 something, BUT my thyroid hormone lab values indicate that I'm not getting enough T3 from the outside, and Free T4 is still sitting just under the top of it's range. That's not proportional, because my Free T3 is still sitting at midrange, barely over, which could mean that I'm not quite converting enough T4 to T3. I don't yet quite know this, but one thing I sure know is that I don't want my thyroid gland stimulated at all, since I do have Hashi's Thyroiditis, and I MAY have nodules, though not necessarily so. All my low TSH means is that my thyroid itself is now laid to rest from working it's little buns off, only to become more enlarged or sicker, making a physical obstacle that could very well have to be removed one day, so that I don't choke to death, have poor breathing (with a compressed esophagus and breathing apparatus), and hopefully don't get lymphoma or thyroid cancer. Us Hashi's people, from what I've read, seem to be more prone to both. I'm not worried about it, I'm just doing what I can to improve it all, out of necessity. I DO look at labs and scratch my head at them, and they do have quite a bit of info with them, paired with what I'm feeling, even if it is both negative and positive, at the same time.

If the TSH becomes upped by the natural means, with a thyroid gland that DOES work, we're talking about a person who is going to become very much MORE hyper, if their main problem is either what, Graves and/or other thyroid receptor problems? The more the TSH comes up (in these cases), the more run away the gland will become. Seems like I've heard a lot of the hyper people say that they have taken thyroid hormone blockers to block what the hormone does in the body, but I don't see how TSH can be brought up or blocked in this situation. These are all different scenarios that are all treated differently, but it seems that so many doctors don't understand, and they use the same "gold standard" for every single one of them, thereby missing the mark in most, as to getting to what the real problem is and therefore, helping prolong a person's misery, just because they had a low TSH.

Re: Re: tsh levels and hyper

Niki—why even run labs if you are not going to go by them? I got lost on that point...If you are hypo and start on meds or increase your dose and your tsh is now highly suppresed then you have over medicated yourself into the hyper range... I never said TSH is the indicator... I just said it cannot be ignored if it is SEVERLY suppressed... How do you think they take labs for hyper? Not everyone is hypo. Some are hyper and need to UP their TSH... It’s individual.

[Guest guest]

Re: tsh levels and hyper

Sue, that is not true. If you're hypo, on thyroid meds, your TSH is

completely suppressed, and your ft's are still very low in the range,

you are STILL HYPO. After being on thyroid hormone supplementation,

the TSH level is irrelevant...it means NOTHING.

The symptoms of hypo and hyper often overlap. Many have anxiety,

heart pounding/palps, etc., when still extremely hypo. I did, and I

know many others on this board have experienced the same. At the

time, my ft's were still quite low, but my TSH had been completely

suppressed for months (<0.01). I was still hypo. When I was first

diagnosed, my TSH was 0.9...but my ft's were at the bottom of the lab

range and I was barely functioning...I was extremely hypo.

Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is a good doc who

truly knows how to treat thyroid successfully understands this and

typically only continues to run this lab to follow " established "

protocol, but does not use this level to determine a course of

treatment.

>

> > Sue,

> >

> > The original question was about the TSH level. And why do

doctors freak

> > out about it being suppressed. My point to your info about

> > hyperthyroidism, was simply that TSH doesn't mean anything on

> > meds. Symptoms, temperature and Free's are what should matter to

the

> > doctor. That was ALL I was trying to say. Yes, high doses can

cause

> > people to go hyper, but on some one on meds the TSH is not what

should be

> > looked at to determine that, that was what I was trying to point

out.

> >

> > Kate

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well, between my computer doing handstands and something else, I

accidentally sent this reply blank. What a day! I meant to say " ditto "

Niki.

>

> Re: tsh levels and hyper

>

>

> Sue, that is not true. If you're hypo, on thyroid meds, your TSH is

> completely suppressed, and your ft's are still very low in the range,

> you are STILL HYPO. After being on thyroid hormone supplementation,

> the TSH level is irrelevant...it means NOTHING.

>

> The symptoms of hypo and hyper often overlap. Many have anxiety,

> heart pounding/palps, etc., when still extremely hypo. I did, and I

> know many others on this board have experienced the same. At the

> time, my ft's were still quite low, but my TSH had been completely

> suppressed for months (<0.01). I was still hypo. When I was first

> diagnosed, my TSH was 0.9...but my ft's were at the bottom of the lab

> range and I was barely functioning...I was extremely hypo.

>

> Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is a good doc who

> truly knows how to treat thyroid successfully understands this and

> typically only continues to run this lab to follow " established "

> protocol, but does not use this level to determine a course of

> treatment.

[Guest guest]

Yes, Cathryn, yes, yes, yes....I had normal TSH off and on for years. I had had an emergency hysterectomy after hemorraghing after childbirth in 1987. I have had symptoms evern since. They would put me on thyroid meds and then take me off. I was undermedicated (I know that now) because they only went by TSH. I was put on 1 gr of armour once and gained 20 lbs. I gained another 20 or so when they took me off it! Finally I was having recurring thyroiditis I guess as my thyroid finally pooped out. Even then I had a normal TSH despite all the hyper symptoms. Finally a doctor did catch it because I had had a low tsh and then it was high but only slightly out of rang). But I was crying for years that something was wrong with my thyroid. I was freezing cold, had SADs, dry skin, could not lose one pound despite a healthy diet and regular aerobic exercise etc. I tried alternative docs, regular docs, endos. homeopaths, etc. Finally, I found out about thyroiditis on the internet and diagnosed myself! I told the doctor that's what I had and she agreed but would not prescribe armour. I knew I wanted armour because of previous tries on thyroid medication and research I had done. She wanted to do synthroid and T3. Then I found this list and Dr. Ozan. NOw I know to ask for :the free T3 and free T4 along with the TSH. I can be an advocate for myself because I have some info. I truly was in the dark for 14 years.

Steph

[Guest guest]

Yes, I have heard of Sheehan's and in fact, Dr. Ozan brought it up to me. I was impressed that he knew about it, but I am quite sure that due to my experience I had damage to all of my hormonal systems, if not Sheehan's

steph

[Guest guest]

I think when one first “complains” of hypo symptoms

or the doc feels a goiter, they do the TSH and thank God for that.

Had my TSH NOT shown out of range I would never have gotten

into treatment, so In that aspect the TSH is actually looked at

And is a pretty good indicator for a starting point.

Once established one is hypo then the customization can begin.

sue

I'm invovled in a study right now concerning the autonomic nervous

system. One thing they are keeping a close watch on is my thyroid,

because they have to be able to show it is not involved. I have had a

suppressed TSH forever... considering I have been on thyroid

replacement of one sort or another for 20 years, and suffered with

Hashimoto's for 28 years, it is understandable.

The cardiologist in charge was looking at my thyroid labs: TSH, and

the Free T's. One nurse made a comment about my suppressed TSH, and

the cardiologist said " it doesn't matter, her other levels are within

the ranges. TSH has nothing to do with the rate of your heart. " They

are interested in increasing heartrates upon standing any certain

lengths, etc. Cardiologist knew her stuff.

Cathryn

[Guest guest]

Have you ever heard of Sheehan's Syndrome? Heavy bleeding during childbirth sometimes results in damage to the pituitary gland, resulting in hypothyroidism and other hormonal deficiencies.sle816@... wrote: Yes, Cathryn, yes, yes, yes....I had normal TSH off and on for years. I had had an emergency hysterectomy after hemorraghing after childbirth in 1987. I have had symptoms evern since. They would put me on thyroid meds and then take me off. I was undermedicated (I know that now) because they only went by TSH. I was put on 1 gr of armour once and gained 20 lbs. I gained another 20 or so when they took me off it! Finally I

was having recurring thyroiditis I guess as my thyroid finally pooped out. Even then I had a normal TSH despite all the hyper symptoms. Finally a doctor did catch it because I had had a low tsh and then it was high but only slightly out of rang). But I was crying for years that something was wrong with my thyroid. I was freezing cold, had SADs, dry skin, could not lose one pound despite a healthy diet and regular aerobic exercise etc. I tried alternative docs, regular docs, endos. homeopaths, etc. Finally, I found out about thyroiditis on the internet and diagnosed myself! I told the doctor that's what I had and she agreed but would not prescribe armour. I knew I wanted armour because of previous tries on thyroid medication and research I had done. She wanted to do synthroid and T3. Then I found this list and Dr. Ozan. NOw I know to ask for :the free T3 and free T4 along with the TSH. I can be an advocate for myself

because I have some info. I truly was in the dark for 14 years. Steph

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[Guest guest]

And I'm a good example of that. I suspected I had a thyroid problem

(plain ole hypo) and went to my family doc. TSH about 1, so I'm " normal "

and just need anti-depressants. Go to " Armour doc " , request frees, don't

get them, TSH about 1, so I'm " normal " and need anti-depressants AND a

sleep study. Go to doc #3 and tell the whole story, get frees done, and

HE finds a nodule. Not only am I really low on T3, and marginal on T4,

but I've got thyroid cancer!!

So in my case, I wasn't diagnosed with blood tests at all, but with a

neck check. Well, obviously I had more sophisticated tests after that,

but that was how it started.

Cathryn wrote:

>

>

> Not arguing TSH is a valid test that has it's place. Just saying it

> shouldn't be used as the only test when dealing with thyroid issues.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Jan, I was reading Steph's post and trying to remember that name.

An internet friend of mine in Europe recently had some serious health

problems and they think she has Sheehan's. Judging by her experience,

it's nothing to fool around with. I just can't believe what that woman

has gone through, and she's not recovered yet.

Jan wrote:

> Have you ever heard of Sheehan's Syndrome? Heavy bleeding during

> childbirth sometimes results in damage to the pituitary gland, resulting

> in hypothyroidism and other hormonal deficiencies.

>

> */sle816@.../* wrote:

>

> Yes, Cathryn, yes, yes, yes....I had normal TSH off and on for

> years. I had had an emergency hysterectomy after hemorraghing after

> childbirth in 1987. I have had symptoms evern since. <snip>

[Guest guest]

I'm losing it today. Steph, I meant to ask in my other reply - did you

get off the sleep apnea machine after you began thyroid treatment?

sle816@... wrote:

> Oh , yes, I was on a sleep apnea machine for a year before the hypo

> diagnosis. How do they diagnose thyroid cancer? BTW??

> steph

[Guest guest]

Dr. Ozan told me t ht he didn't think that sleep apena was my problem. My thryoid was enlarged!!! So, no more CPAP! I haven't noticed a bit of diference and I sure sleep better without it. My husband says my snoring has improved since thyroid meds were introduced

Steph

[Guest guest]

Some people actually benefit from thyroid at bedtime. I'm going to try

changing one of my doses to bedtime. I'm at 4 grains and currently take 2

in the am 1 grain in the early afternoon and 1 grain around 6pm. I'm going

to try one of the grain from the morning at bedtime and see what happens.

Kate

At 12:16 PM 3/14/2006, you wrote:

>Hi Steph,

>

>I'm having a bit of trouble going from 2 1/2 to 3 grains. Had to

>back down to 2 3/4 and sometimes feel just a bit jittery but take my

>Armour twice a day. Does the third dose keep you awake at night?

>What times of day do you take them? This might be a solution for

>me. Thank you so much.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I only take two doses at this point, but my second dose is in the evening, usually at about 8 or 9 pm. It actually helps me sleep. A third small dose with food is a good way to increase if you are having difficulty doing so. rose_nancy8 wrote: Hi Steph,I'm having a bit of trouble going from 2 1/2 to 3 grains. Had to back down to 2 3/4 and sometimes feel just a bit jittery but take my Armour twice a day. Does the third dose keep you awake at night? What times of day do you take them? This might be a solution for me. Thank you so

much.>> > So, I tried going back to the three times a day dosing today and felt the > anxiety lessen. That is a hassle, but 3 times a day seems best for me. Thanks > for the support. I will keep ya'll posted.> Steph

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[Guest guest]

I am still having a little trouble with the increase from 2.0 to 2.25 gr armour. I feel pretty good, maybe a little anxious, but I am having some blood sugar issues. I have been instructed to reduce caffeine while increasing by several members on this board, but havn't. I may be becoming willing. Dont likt he blood sugar drops. Appetite is still more than normal. My basal temperatures are lower than 98 for 5 mornings in a row - from 97-97.8, so I don't think I am hyperthyroid?? My bowels are still a little loose, but no problem sleeping. Some of these symptoms seem to be subsiding. What do yall think? My TSH was below the low range at ..09 but Free T3 and Free T4 were in range - T4 low.

Thanks

Steph

[Guest guest]

Oh yea, forgot to add. I am taking armour 1 gr iin the am 3/4 gr at noon and 1/2 gr at dinnertime.

Steph

[Guest guest]

Oh, with food is a good idea, Jan. I tried that today. Will let you know

Steph

[Guest guest]

Steph-

Try doing 2 grains one day and 2.25 grains the next, then 2 grains, then

2.25 grains the next day. Just a thought.

Kate

At 10:07 PM 3/14/2006, you wrote:

>I am still having a little trouble with the increase from 2.0 to 2.25 gr

>armour. I feel pretty good, maybe a little anxious, but I am having some

>blood sugar issues. I have been instructed to reduce caffeine while

>increasing by several members on this board, but havn't. I may be

>becoming willing. Dont likt he blood sugar drops. Appetite is still more

>than normal. My basal temperatures are lower than 98 for 5 mornings in a

>row - from 97-97.8, so I don't think I am hyperthyroid?? My bowels are

>still a little loose, but no problem sleeping. Some of these symptoms

>seem to be subsiding. What do yall think? My TSH was below the low range

>at ..09 but Free T3 and Free T4 were in range - T4 low.

>Thanks

>Steph

[Guest guest]

Your times look good, if it is working for you. Everyone is

different. If it's not causing sleeping problems, great.

Kate

At 11:19 PM 3/14/2006, you wrote:

>Oh yea, forgot to add. I am taking armour 1 gr iin the am 3/4 gr at noon

>and 1/2 gr at dinnertime.

>Steph

[Guest guest]

It worked fine yesterday, but that was day one! I'm sure a week will be a

better indication.

I'll keep you posted!

Kate

At 12:32 PM 3/15/2006, you wrote:

>Let me know how it goes. I take it the 6pm one doesn't interfere

>with your sleep? I was taking 1 1/2 grains am and 1 1/2 grains

>early afternoon but may be just a bit too much for me at one time

>right now, although before I was hypo and temps too low at 2 1/2

>grains. It's funny if I do get faster pulse and palps, it's at

>night, far away from any Armour dose. Makes me wonder if my body

>needs more than just 2x day.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Some people actually benefit from thyroid at bedtime. I'm going

>to try

> > changing one of my doses to bedtime. I'm at 4 grains and

>currently take 2

> > in the am 1 grain in the early afternoon and 1 grain around 6pm.

>I'm going

> > to try one of the grain from the morning at bedtime and see what

>happens.

> >

> > Kate

[Guest guest]

Kate, have you tried this before? sounds like a great idea! I'll try the alternating doses every other day.

thanks,

steph