Re: RDs, MDs, and more

[Guest guest]

On 9/30/05, miffytiramisu <miffytiramisu@...> wrote:

> My nutritional sciences programs has three tracks: physiology and

> metabolism, dietetics, and molecular toxicology. I am currently in

> phys/metab and am thinking of either double-majoring in mol/tox or

> premed. The dietetics track is the only one that gives the title of RD

> upon graduation; the others only B.S.'s.

That makes it sound to me like an RD degree isn't worthy of any

prestige at all. I'd listen to a phys/metab or mol/toxic major a hell

of a lot sooner than someone who studied the party line on how to eat

for 4 years.

>It is, however, more

> intensive because it prepares students for a lifetime career whereas

> the others lead to graduate school.

Right but intensive in *what*? Preparation for graduate school means

critical thnking and analysis skills, whereas preparation for a

counseling career means indoctrination with the types of things to say

that fit in with legal guidelines and such.

> If I decide to become a premed

> " major " (my school does not offer premed as an actual major) then I

> will go to medical school, otherwise I will continue to grad school

> and receive an MA.

I don't think any school offers premed as a major. Med schools prefer

a well-rounded education and actually favor liberal arts majors.

Science geeks make good researchers and computer engineers but they

aren't people people in general.

There's always the possibility for you of an MD/PhD. My cellular

biology warned that this was not such a good choice, and that most

people who enter these programs drop out, becase they are so long, and

it is stressful to not graduate with the same class you entered with.

I myself am somewhat torn between med school and a PhD in Molecular

and Cellular Biology.

> I don't think a college major really counts for anything (unless if

> you're a pre-health student) except for exploring something you really

> enjoy, so I wouldn't beat myself up about a B.A. in history

True, but if I majored in egineering, I could have been at the head of

my class and begun making a minimum of $60K a year after graduating

and been in a much better position with more choices. I did pre-med

stuff for a while. My cell bio teacher tried to pull some strings for

me and get me immediately into a PhD program, but my application got

screwed up because I accidentally sent it to the Masters progam. So

it sat there for a yea,r, and then got rejected, which isn't

surprising, since I don't have bio 2 or genetics yet. After taking

Bio 1, I just couldn't stomach having to be in bio 2, so I skipped it.

Luckily I got a personal waiver for the attendance requirement in bio

1-- I guess from hanging out on this list for a while I absorbed all

the general bio information beforehand.

I think I'm just going to study geneics, bio, and statistics on my own

and take challenge tests. Also I need to take the GREs again, which I

did ok on, but took during my vegan psychotic phase and could have

done much better on. And maybe the chem and bio subject GREs too.

Actually, whether or not I go to med school I want to take the MCAT

someday, just to see how I do.

> In

> fact, it makes one more attractive to employers because it shows that

> they have experience from other fields instead of just

> medicine/what-have-you.

True. This is especially true for med school. Still, I've been

through 6 years of undergrad, which is pretty excessive, and I've

never had a job making more than 38K/yr.

Well cool... good luck!

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

[Guest guest]

> Right but intensive in *what*? Preparation for graduate school means

> critical thnking and analysis skills, whereas preparation for a

> counseling career means indoctrination with the types of things to say

> that fit in with legal guidelines and such.

Well, what I meant by that statement is that Dietetics majors have to

take a lot more upper-div classes in the department than either

phys/metab or mol/tox. They also have to take some business classes as

well as economics, psychology, and anthropology. But I agree, they're

basically trained to echo the FDA/USDA instead of research. You

wouldn't believe how many times I've " facepalmed " myself in nutri-sci

lecture.

> I don't think any school offers premed as a major. Med schools prefer

> a well-rounded education and actually favor liberal arts majors.

I did not know that. I had applied to liberal arts schools and was

planning on majoring in something other than science, but was rejected

from the ones I really wanted to go to, so I went to a public

university instead. It's a challenge, but I'm happy here.

> There's always the possibility for you of an MD/PhD. My cellular

> biology warned that this was not such a good choice, and that most

> people who enter these programs drop out, becase they are so long, and

> it is stressful to not graduate with the same class you entered with.

> I myself am somewhat torn between med school and a PhD in Molecular

> and Cellular Biology.

Yeah, I don't deal with stress very well so it's either one or the

other. Since medical school is such a big decision I don't want to

rush in and decide too early before I'm sure of what I want. Best of

luck to you whichever you choose, though.

> > I don't think a college major really counts for anything (unless if

> > you're a pre-health student) except for exploring something you really

> > enjoy, so I wouldn't beat myself up about a B.A. in history

>

> True, but if I majored in egineering, I could have been at the head of

> my class and begun making a minimum of $60K a year after graduating

> and been in a much better position with more choices.

Would you have been happy with a job in engineering?

> I think I'm just going to study geneics, bio, and statistics on my own

> and take challenge tests. Also I need to take the GREs again, which I

> did ok on, but took during my vegan psychotic phase and could have

> done much better on. And maybe the chem and bio subject GREs too.

> Actually, whether or not I go to med school I want to take the MCAT

> someday, just to see how I do.

As in the real MCATs, or practice tests? If you take one for the heck

of it and then decide you really do want to go to med school, that

could get you into a bad position. But I'm sure you already know that.

> Well cool... good luck!

Thanks, the same to you!

[Guest guest]

On 9/30/05, miffytiramisu <miffytiramisu@...> wrote:

> You wouldn't believe how many times I've " facepalmed " myself in nutri-sci

> lecture.

LOL! It was bad enough for me taking gen bio and dealing with the

little interjections of the teacher every so often about nutrition;

I'm lucky I never took a nutrition course.

> > I don't think any school offers premed as a major. Med schools prefer

> > a well-rounded education and actually favor liberal arts majors.

> I did not know that. I had applied to liberal arts schools and was

> planning on majoring in something other than science, but was rejected

> from the ones I really wanted to go to, so I went to a public

> university instead. It's a challenge, but I'm happy here.

I don't think they would reject anyone for a science degree, but

they'll look twice at a liberal arts degree. A good friend of the

family was one of the researchers for the UN when they studied the

lack of heart disease in Crete and is now a retired MD and the

research director for Weight Watchers, and he said that he sat on a

board examining med school applications once, and they brought one guy

in for an interview because he put down that he wrote poetry. I think

they asked him for some of his poetry too.

A lesson for applications and resumes: never misunderestimate the

power of your quirks. :-)

> Yeah, I don't deal with stress very well so it's either one or the

> other. Since medical school is such a big decision I don't want to

> rush in and decide too early before I'm sure of what I want. Best of

> luck to you whichever you choose, though.

Thanks :-)

> > > I don't think a college major really counts for anything (unless if

> > > you're a pre-health student) except for exploring something you really

> > > enjoy, so I wouldn't beat myself up about a B.A. in history

> >

> > True, but if I majored in egineering, I could have been at the head of

> > my class and begun making a minimum of $60K a year after graduating

> > and been in a much better position with more choices.

>

> Would you have been happy with a job in engineering?

At least as happy as I'd be making half the money. My goal in life is

to not have a job. I wouldn't want to do engineering permanently, but

it would have opened my options up a lot to start off with money I

could save and use to invest in a business or whatever else, or just

get rid of all my debt quick, save for a house, whatever.

I worked with CONCRETE when I got out of school. I would have been

happier doing *anything else.*

> > I think I'm just going to study geneics, bio, and statistics on my own

> > and take challenge tests. Also I need to take the GREs again, which I

> > did ok on, but took during my vegan psychotic phase and could have

> > done much better on. And maybe the chem and bio subject GREs too.

> > Actually, whether or not I go to med school I want to take the MCAT

> > someday, just to see how I do.

>

> As in the real MCATs, or practice tests? If you take one for the heck

> of it and then decide you really do want to go to med school, that

> could get you into a bad position. But I'm sure you already know that.

Hmm? Why? I woudn't take it and bomb it, I'd take it to prove to

myself that I could get in the top 0.1% or something like that.

Wouldn't that help?

You know, I would study, of course. And take my cod liver oil.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

[Guest guest]

On 9/30/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> I don't think they would reject anyone for a science degree, but

> they'll look twice at a liberal arts degree. A good friend of the

> family was one of the researchers for the UN when they studied the

> lack of heart disease in Crete and is now a retired MD and the

> research director for Weight Watchers, and he said that he sat on a

> board examining med school applications once, and they brought one guy

> in for an interview because he put down that he wrote poetry. I think

> they asked him for some of his poetry too.

IIRC, the research shows that people with liberal arts background DO

BETTER than those with undergraduate science backgrounds in medical

schools. I wouldn't be surprised to find that MD's who are attracted

to alternative nutritional paradigms are probably MD's who did not

major in the " traditional " science backgrounds.

When I originally went to college I wanted to be a medical lawyer,

i.e. a lawyer who specializes in medical malpractice suits. At the

time it was a totally virgin field. When I told my doctor of my plans

he energetically suggested that I got to law school FIRST, learn how

to think and then go to med school rather than the other way around.

He said in no uncertain terms that I would be a much more competent

lawyer *and* doctor if I went that route.

I would have except a couple of years later I discovered that most

lawyering was a struggle for victory rather than a search for truth,

which didn't interest me, and I became what Dr. Mendelssohn called a

" medical heretic " . There is no way on God's green earth I would have

ever made it through medical school after reading the good doctor, Dr.

s, Ron Schmid, Dufty and others.

--

" It is no crime to be ignorant of economics,

which is, after all, a specialized discipline

and one that most people consider to be a

'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible

to have a loud and vociferous opinion on

economic subjects while remaining in this

state of ignorance. "

-- Murray Rothbard

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>True, but if I majored in egineering, I could have been at the head of

>my class and begun making a minimum of $60K a year after graduating

>and been in a much better position with more choices.

Maybe... but when I was an electrical engineering major at Union

(one of the very top electrical engineering schools in the country along

with MIT and Caltech) they kept telling us about the wonderful job

opportunities which would soon be developing in India. The jobs picture as

it was laid out to us was quite dismal. A students were unemployable. B

students got crappy, under-paying engineering jobs. C students got cushy

sales jobs. And if you went to Purdue, even though the school was quite

inferior, you could enter the job force straightaway because the school

turned out exactly the kind of drones many large companies were looking

for. My A-student friends who stuck with the program wound up

getting soul-crushing IT jobs working for banks.

Yes, there were a few great jobs here and there (if you wanted to work

100-120 hours a week) if you were lucky to make the right connections, but

by and large the process of importing cheaper engineers on H1B visas and

also exporting as many jobs to other countries as possible had already

begun in earnest.

-

[Guest guest]

On 10/3/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Yes, there were a few great jobs here and there (if you wanted to work

> 100-120 hours a week) if you were lucky to make the right connections, but

> by and large the process of importing cheaper engineers on H1B visas and

> also exporting as many jobs to other countries as possible had already

> begun in earnest.

The engineering majors I knew at UMass did real well after school, but

I only knew a few. Either way, I'm where I'm at now anyway. I do get

to use my brain a bit when I'm unemployed. LOL.

My dioxin article is done now, by the way, and going on the website

soon, with an abridged version (minus about 5 pages) going in the

journal.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

[Guest guest]

Nina, where do you go to school? I'm taking a nutritional sciences

undergrad class here at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and it's

great, it's filling in the gaps in my knowledge, but yeah, ample

forehead-slapping material. I've been writing down all the dead-wrong

things the prof asserts in lecture so I can look back and laugh. Quotes

such as " The notion that sugar causes obesity--that ain't true.

[claiming that we usually eat sugar with fat and since fat has 9kcal/g

it's the culprit in obesity] " and " Are sugars bad really? No! They're

great! They're only bad in excess...It's really quite stupid to

villainize foods. " In fact, his and probably the whole department's

philosophy seems to elevate the notion of balance to a ridiculously high

level. Basically, he thinks that eating bad foods is fine as long as you

eat good foods too. From what I can infer, he's suggesting not just that

" balance " is important, but that a good " balance " necessarily includes

both good and bad foods---as if that were healthier than exclusively

eating good foods! What about the notion of optimal human health, isn't

that the ultimate goal here??? Apparently not!

One of the graded parts of the class is a project on " diet analysis "

where we get to analyze our diet for a day or something. I cannot wait

until my prof sees what I eat in a typical day... hahaha

And my B.A. is in philosophy...I think that's " worse " than history in

terms of scientific background in most people's minds, although I

learned a lot about how to think... I'm currently trying to catch up on

science prerequisites for grad school. I'm seriously considering a PhD

program in nutrition.

Tom

miffytiramisu wrote:

>Now that the topic has deviated, I'm going to post a response to this

>one because I don't have enough experience to comment on the others.

>

>My nutritional sciences programs has three tracks: physiology and

>metabolism, dietetics, and molecular toxicology. I am currently in

>phys/metab and am thinking of either double-majoring in mol/tox or

>premed. The dietetics track is the only one that gives the title of RD

>upon graduation; the others only B.S.'s. It is, however, more

>intensive because it prepares students for a lifetime career whereas

>the others lead to graduate school. If I decide to become a premed

> " major " (my school does not offer premed as an actual major) then I

>will go to medical school, otherwise I will continue to grad school

>and receive an MA.

>

>I don't think a college major really counts for anything (unless if

>you're a pre-health student) except for exploring something you really

>enjoy, so I wouldn't beat myself up about a B.A. in history In

>fact, it makes one more attractive to employers because it shows that

>they have experience from other fields instead of just

>medicine/what-have-you.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Nina, where do you go to school?

UC Berkeley. It's... interesting.

>I'm taking a nutritional sciences

> undergrad class here at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and

it's

> great, it's filling in the gaps in my knowledge, but yeah, ample

> forehead-slapping material. I've been writing down all the dead-

wrong

> things the prof asserts in lecture so I can look back and laugh.

Quotes

> such as " The notion that sugar causes obesity--that ain't true.

> [claiming that we usually eat sugar with fat and since fat has

9kcal/g

> it's the culprit in obesity] " and " Are sugars bad really? No!

They're

> great! They're only bad in excess...It's really quite stupid to

> villainize foods. "

That sounds exactly like my professor. " Sugar is good, especially for

little kids! Remember that when you're a parent, because you don't

want to deal with a grumpy kid! " OMG no.

>In fact, his and probably the whole department's

> philosophy seems to elevate the notion of balance to a ridiculously

high

> level. Basically, he thinks that eating bad foods is fine as long

as you

> eat good foods too. From what I can infer, he's suggesting not just

that

> " balance " is important, but that a good " balance " necessarily

includes

> both good and bad foods---as if that were healthier than

exclusively

> eating good foods! What about the notion of optimal human health,

isn't

> that the ultimate goal here??? Apparently not!

Well, I'm also taking a seminar in nutrition, and it's made me a

little more open-minded towards nutrition and the human condition in

general. It's hard to get people to give up sugar. While they

shouldn't be petting people and saying sugar isn't bad, they know

that if they try to create a sugar guideline, people aren't going to

follow it - especially when they are already denied fat. My

professors do recognize high sugar intake as a problem though, in

fruit juices, Gatorade, soda etc.

Outside of nutrition, though, you have to consider financial gain.

It's really, really, REALLY cheap to make baked goods and soda vs.

steak and cream sauce. In fact, I'm trying to start up a little side

business making (healthier) baked goods here to raise a little money.

It costs me only about $4 to make a dozen large muffins that would

probably sell for $18-24 in a bakery. The most expensive ingredient

is yogurt, followed by eggs and then butter. If I was to use organic

(which I can't afford at the moment) then production costs would be

much higher.

> One of the graded parts of the class is a project on " diet

analysis "

> where we get to analyze our diet for a day or something. I cannot

wait

> until my prof sees what I eat in a typical day... hahaha

Indeed! Mine is actually due next week. We're going to be comparing

our diets to the food pyramid... I just know I'm going to fail

utterly. Hehe.

> And my B.A. is in philosophy...I think that's " worse " than history

in

> terms of scientific background in most people's minds, although I

> learned a lot about how to think... I'm currently trying to catch

up on

> science prerequisites for grad school. I'm seriously considering a

PhD

> program in nutrition.

>

> Tom

People who take the intro to nutritional science class in UCB are

usually in two categories: those who are majoring and those who need

a breadth requirement. They're usually poli-sci or some other totally

unrelated major, so don't worry about it

Good luck to you in getting your PhD, if you do choose to do it!

-Nina

[Guest guest]

Oh, of course....but that's not nutrition, that's economics and it

doesn't interest me. And when you factor in all the hidden costs of

cheap baked grain/carb goods, they're a bad deal (for the environment

because of monocrop production, pesticides, and for human health, e.g.).

The $4 to $5 boxes of cereal that people buy happily have a huge profit

margin because the up-front cost of production is relatively cheap. The

extra money I spend on good food is an investment.

I do agree about the difficulty of making people change their dietary

habits when so many things in society are in the way. I don't think

mainstream nutritionists are all evil, I just look at them as products

of the system and I don't hold it against them. That's a good point

about fat...to deny both sugar and fat would mean an immensely difficult

diet for most people.

Tom

miffytiramisu wrote:

> Well, I'm also taking a seminar in nutrition, and it's made me a

> little more open-minded towards nutrition and the human condition in

> general. It's hard to get people to give up sugar. While they

> shouldn't be petting people and saying sugar isn't bad, they know

> that if they try to create a sugar guideline, people aren't going to

> follow it - especially when they are already denied fat. My

> professors do recognize high sugar intake as a problem though, in

> fruit juices, Gatorade, soda etc.

>

> Outside of nutrition, though, you have to consider financial gain.

> It's really, really, REALLY cheap to make baked goods and soda vs.

> steak and cream sauce. In fact, I'm trying to start up a little side

> business making (healthier) baked goods here to raise a little money.

> It costs me only about $4 to make a dozen large muffins that would

> probably sell for $18-24 in a bakery. The most expensive ingredient

> is yogurt, followed by eggs and then butter. If I was to use organic

> (which I can't afford at the moment) then production costs would be

> much higher.

[Guest guest]

Sigh.. I agree. I'm pretty sure my professors are all very intelligent

people, but say anything against what the government says/does/says to

do and, well... bad things happen. That's a fact of life, unfortunately :\

Nina

>I don't think

> mainstream nutritionists are all evil, I just look at them as products

> of the system and I don't hold it against them. That's a good point

> about fat...to deny both sugar and fat would mean an immensely

difficult

> diet for most people.

>

> Tom

[Guest guest]

Nina and Tom,

When I was at UMass Amherst (ah, our schools are kin, Nina, given

their reputations), me and my boss had an underground WAPF chapter at

the dining hall where we worked. He's the one who got me into raw

milk. Then I would lecture for hours on nutrition while we all washed

dishes. Kids would say " My professor says pasta is great for you! "

and we'd refute it. There was this bodbuilder guy who *insisted* that

I would die by the time I was 30 at first (the lowest estimate yet!

Usually I get " by 50 " ), but then a few weeks later I came in in

breakfast and he looked down embarasses at all the yolks he'd peeled

out of his hard-boiled eggs and told me he'd eat the yolks but they

were overcooked-- not that I'd said anything to him! LOL! One of the

girls I'm still in touch with over email, lives in NY, and bought NT

when she graduated and moved back home, and eats by a lot of the NT

practices, even soaking her oatmeal.

So, you've gotta find a niche not dominated by your professor and then

convince everyone from the bottom up. ;-)

Chris

[Guest guest]

Ah, that would be great if I could find some like-minded people, but

unfortunately vegetarian/veganism rules. The people here who know

anything about nutrition think they know EVERYTHING about nutrition

and those who don't are not inclined to find out. I'm sure I'll just

have to keep searching

-Nina

>

> Nina and Tom,

>

> When I was at UMass Amherst (ah, our schools are kin, Nina, given

> their reputations), me and my boss had an underground WAPF chapter at

> the dining hall where we worked. He's the one who got me into raw

> milk. Then I would lecture for hours on nutrition while we all washed

> dishes. Kids would say " My professor says pasta is great for you! "

> and we'd refute it. There was this bodbuilder guy who *insisted* that

> I would die by the time I was 30 at first (the lowest estimate yet!

> Usually I get " by 50 " ), but then a few weeks later I came in in

> breakfast and he looked down embarasses at all the yolks he'd peeled

> out of his hard-boiled eggs and told me he'd eat the yolks but they

> were overcooked-- not that I'd said anything to him! LOL! One of the

> girls I'm still in touch with over email, lives in NY, and bought NT

> when she graduated and moved back home, and eats by a lot of the NT

> practices, even soaking her oatmeal.

>

> So, you've gotta find a niche not dominated by your professor and then

> convince everyone from the bottom up. ;-)

>

> Chris

>