Re: New Member hitting a wall with meds

[Guest guest]

Me again! I'm a 44 y/o male, married with two beautiful girls (6 & 8). I'm in decent shape despite the fact that I've been too sore to run and workout in awhile. I am the sole support and have my own design services consultancy. To say this ride has had an impact on my life and biz would be an understatement! I know you know this all too well. Here's the results from my last 2 labs:09/16/2005 15mg Armour, 50 mcg Levothroid:TSH: 1.04 (.40-5.50 mIU/L) Total T4: 9.1 (4.5-12.5 ug/dL) Free T4: 1.5 (0.8-1.8 ng/dL) Total T3: 112 (60-181 ng/dL) Free T3: 3.1 (2.3-4.2 pg/mL)10/17/05 30mg Armour, 37.5 mcg Levothroid: (different lab)TSH: .85 (.34-5.60 uIU/mL) Free T4: .90 (0.6-1.6 ng/dL) Free T3: 2.8 (2.4-4.2 pg/mL)As you can see my numbers are below mid-range, which has been normal for me regardless of the amount of replacement taken. Muscle soreness has been my number one complaint since this all began and the only time I've ever felt relief there is when I've gotten the T4 replacement up to the point that it gives me major headaches. I have not been able to get any of my TT or FT numbers much above midrange since I began monitoring it 1-1/2 years ago, even with my TSH well below 1.0 and feeling horrible.My saliva Cortisol test was as follows:Morning: 4.6 (3-8 ng/ml) Noon: 1.4 (2-4 ng/ml) Evening: 1.6 (1-2 ng/ml) Night: 0.2 (0.5-1.5 ng/ml)I've also compiled a few key notes that I've FINALLY realized might have been trying to point me to my adrenals all along:This all started one year after surgery. One month after I finally rid myself of my life's highest anxiety (had it for a year from cancer diagnosis), I got severe upper back pain along with other milder symptoms. I thought hypothyroid even tho my TSH was 2.62 (.92 before surgery) and started on TRH. Could it be my adrenals crashed?GI intolerance to the desiccated... a possible adrenal response?In one of my trials I had 2 different pharmacies compound desiccated thyroid for me due to GI intolerance to the pills. Neither I could tolerate because of dizziness when taken. Hmmm... adrenals?Once I get above a certain dose on the meds (any combination that roughly equates to 75 mcg T4) my TSH actually tends to go UP and my T3 (and to a lesser extent T4) numbers go DOWN... and I feel crummier to boot. Huh?My T3 numbers have been the same or lower with desiccated thyroid than they have been with synth T4.DHEA-S is the lowest my doctor has seen for a male in the low 50's and I can't tolerate 5 lousy mg without losing sleep.I do believe I'm hypothyroid as I get terrible brain fog and other problems when my TSH gets above 2.0. Feeling poor with a fairly normal TSH could be due to a sluggish pituitary. My GP thinks I'm hypopituitary due to my Testosterone taking a nose dive during the same period as well as a low-range IGF-1 and a pathetic DHEA-S level. Pituitary feedback remains low.Too long... I'm sorry! I'm trying to give a solid history. I'll end it here and talk about most recent experience next time.Peace, Randy

[Guest guest]

The finish to my novel: I dropped my 30 mg Armour dose on Wed (28th) and continued with my 50 mcg Levothroid. My muscle pain had become so severe I had to do something. I had started lifting weights and running in Early November and it was going fantastic until I had to start spreading it out another day due to not rebounding well. Then I crashed hard in mid Dec. I got severe shoulder pain that radiated down my arm and into my hand. My arm was falling asleep during the night from the forearm to the ring and pinky fingers. It's done nothing but get worse in the 3 weeks since. It did get much better after stopping the Armour but leveled off at about 50%. I believe now the Armour has me retain water and that in combination with the muscle pumping caused nerve compression in my shoulder. In addition, the pain had now crept into my lower left leg as well. This is not unusual for me (migrating pain). My issues have always been on the left side of my body (anyone else?).I wanted to try Isocort, so I stopped the Armour.Friday (30th) I took one pill of Isocort and was amped for awhile, then had arrhythmia from around noon until late that night (probably a skipped beat for every good beat) felt good when I finally went to sleep and woke up with a headache. This from just one pill! I've had the arrhthmia off and on ever since. I don't know if the arrhythmia is due to the Isocort or changing up the thyroid meds and I haven't had an Isocort since. I did take a tiny bit of Cytomel today (1.125mcg 2X) to see what my response would be and I think it may be making the arrhythmia better.I'm not sure where to go from here. My original plan was to take Isocort on a regular basis and add back in the Armour. I have 2 doctors monitoring me, but they both feel I've done a good job monitoring myself (pffft! ) and are accepting to me self-medicating (to a point). They know I won't do anything too stupid.Suggestions are warmly accepted.Peace and Happy New Year, Randy

[Guest guest]

I just read that metformin (Glucophage), a drug for Type II diabetics, tends to suppress the TSH. It would be an off-label use, but there is talk of using it for folks like you.randogbert wrote: Hello, thanks to Jan for pointing me here. I posted the following on the About.com thyroid site and she felt I might get good feedback here. Because this post is long, I'll respond to it myself with an update including test results and an update of what's gone on since I posted it (Dec 29).I need some advise!I had half my thyroid removed for a nodule 2-1/2 years ago. A year later I began having hypo symptoms. I began on Levoxyl and when I got up to 75mcg, I began having headaches. Slowly I

increased my dosage until I got to 112mcg where I got severe headaches, brain fog, and my left eye went whacko (pupil dilation, blurry vision, off colors and discomfort). I went off the Levoxyl and the symptoms quickly subsided. After trying different brands and dosages, I have found that I am toxic to any synthetic T4 over 62.5 mcg (I've tried Synthroid, Levoxyl, Unithroid and Levothroid).I also went through many trials of Armour and Naturethroid with initial GI and bloating problems that were serious enough to cause my GI to completely shut down for a number of days (at 52.5 mg or 7/8 grain). I have since remedied that by lowering the dose, mixing the tablets with water and drinking the water throughout the day.I have been doing well at 50mcg Levothroid and 30mg Armour except for slight headaches and eye discomfort (always the left)... all except for one thing: extreme muscle pain and fatigue. I have since had my

other hormones checked and I am now on testosterone as well. However, it has not helped my muscle pain.My mother has Fibromyalgia and I fear the worst there, but I'm still trying to find a solution without accepting that I might have gotten FMS from this thyroid roller coaster. I had a Cortisol saliva test done and it came out Low on 2 of the 4, Low range on 1, and Mid range on 1. It did follow the day's curve, however. I stopped the Armour the day before yesterday so I can try some Isocort in the near future. Since stopping the Armour, my muscle pain has dropped significantly. I am now facing the possibility that the Armour is causing the muscle pain.That's my history.If it turns out that both synthetic T4 and Desiccated thyroid are toxic to my system at doses I need to be healthy, what can I do? I do know about Cytomel and haven't given that a complete trial yet although I do know that my T3 limit is

around 7.5mcg without my pulse going over 80bpm.I am worried about the future if my thyroid continues to fail. I also had a tiny carcinoma found in the half of the thyroid that was removed unrelated to the larger nodule, so it is possible I may have or get cancer in the remaining gland. I have to consider that as well. Ideally I would keep my TSH suppressed, but I can only get it down around 1.00 before I hit a wall with the replacement hormones.Any advise? THANK YOU for getting this far! :)I would also love to hear from anyone with similar experiences to the meds!Randy

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[Guest guest]

Hi Marilyn,

I dropped the Armour for a few days and did this only to initiate treatment of

my adrenals with Isocort. I would like to avoid completely stopping thyroid

supplementation to treat my adrenals first (which is supposed to be the proper

protocol).

I have not added back in the Armour yet and may just include Cytomel as needed

while working on adding Isocort. Any advise here from those who have added

Cortef or Isocort while already somewhat established on thyroid replacement?

Thanks, Randy

>

> I hope you are saying you stopped the Armour very slowly, just like when you

started it. It is always best to start and stop most meds slowly. If you are

starting a replacement, you would start it slowly at the same time you are

decreasing the previous one slowly, so that they overlap. Therefore, you are not

without meds inbetween different brands.

> M.

[Guest guest]

Thank you, I forgot to mention I've tested negative for antibodies. My

TSH went up to 2.62 a year after surgery without any supplementation.

Randy

>

> Randy,

> TSH of 2.62 is fairly normal if you have never been on thyroid

meds, but if you have, a TSH of 2.62 is too high and probably suggest

antibodies at work. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

> M.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Randy!

Welcome to the group. I was firmly established on thyroid hormones

before starting on hydrocortisone. I had been taking some form of

them off and on for ten years. I had just switched from Unithroid

to Armour when my doctor prescribed hydrocortisone. I think

treating the adrenals first (if needed) might be the proper

protocol, best case scenario, IF you don't happen to be on thyroid

hormones yet. I don't know that it matters, once you're on it.

I do think it's a fine balance. I think you need adrenal support to

increase your ability to tolerate thyroid hormone, but also the

thyroid hormone assists with your ability to tolerate adrenal

support. Hope that makes sense!

After reading your posts I conclude that you have less pain when

your FT4 is above mid-range, is that correct? I have had chronic

pain for years and on Armour only with a low FT4.

>

>

> Hi Marilyn,

>

> I dropped the Armour for a few days and did this only to initiate

treatment of my adrenals with Isocort. I would like to avoid

completely stopping thyroid supplementation to treat my adrenals

first (which is supposed to be the proper protocol).

>

> I have not added back in the Armour yet and may just include

Cytomel as needed while working on adding Isocort. Any advise here

from those who have added Cortef or Isocort while already somewhat

established on thyroid replacement?

>

> Thanks, Randy

[Guest guest]

Courtenay,

Hi again! I thought I asked once before but you may not have seen

my post. Would you be willing to share how much DHEA you are now

taking? I'm still on 2.0 and debating whether or not to try to

double that to 4.0 as recommended. I did have some problems with

that before. Do you really feel that it has helped your energy

levels? If you'd rather not share how much you take, I understand.

By the way, I found a great sublingual B-Complex with B-12, B6, and

a couple other things. I have folate in my multi. I thought I'd

try that instead of metanx but can't really tell if it's better so

far. So many variables at work here! ARgh!

Thanks.

>

> Crummy DHEA levels can make everything feel worse than

> worse, and it will MOST DEFINITELY inhibit your body's

> ability to absorb Armour. If you're not tolerating

> the 5 mg., you might ask your doctor to prescribe the

> 2.5 from Women's Int'l Pharmacy (don't be scared by

> the name-- they rock.) and work up from there.

>

> When my DHEA levels were low, I could not tolerate

> even the smallest levels of normal stress, and

> absolutely could not absorb normal amounts of Armour.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I don't purposely consume soy, although I know it is in a lot of

processed foods. I take my meds on an empty stomach... the T4 that

is. The Armour I was drinking throughout the day.

I am careful to take calcium apart from my meds. Is B12 considered

iron?

What are the effects of taking soy and/or goitrogens?

Thanks,

Randy

>

> Randy

>

> Question---Do you consume soy in any form, and/or do you consume a

ton of goitrogens? Do you take your thyroid med on a completely

empty stomach, one hr before meals or two to three hrs afterward? Do

you take calcium or iron in any form close to your thyroid meds,

within/either before or after, less than 4 hrs before or after?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jan, can you elaborate on this? What does that drug do? Does it suppress TSH as

a side-effect to its current usage? Are you saying it might be a way to turn off

your gland while watching your T3's and T4's and adjusting those to proper serum

levels?

Thanks, Randy

>

> I just read that metformin (Glucophage), a drug for Type II diabetics, tends

to suppress the TSH. It would be an off-label use, but there is talk of using it

for folks like you.

[Guest guest]

Marilyn,

Did you have a hard time adjusting to hydrocortisone while you were

taking Armour?

Thanks,

Randy

>

> We are taking different drugs so I cannot compare. I was taking

Armour for several years before my doc decided to check the pituitary

with IGF1 which is below range. At that point, I found this group and

a Hypopituitary group. I found a new doc and checked adrenals and

other hormones, all low. No surprise. I am taking hydrocortisone

(10mg) and am improved. I did not intrupt the Armour to start the

hydrocortisone. No one seemed to think that was necessary. Good luck.

> M.

[Guest guest]

Hi !

At this point I'm not sure if my muscle pain is better when my T4 is

high or just when I stop Armour. Problem is, I need T3 to sleep! (and

other sense of well being issues)

Sorry, after 2 years I'm still confused!

Same question: did you have a hard time implementing hydrocortisone

while already on thyroid meds?

Randy

>

> Hi, Randy!

>

> Welcome to the group. I was firmly established on thyroid hormones

> before starting on hydrocortisone. I had been taking some form of

> them off and on for ten years. I had just switched from Unithroid

> to Armour when my doctor prescribed hydrocortisone. I think

> treating the adrenals first (if needed) might be the proper

> protocol, best case scenario, IF you don't happen to be on thyroid

> hormones yet. I don't know that it matters, once you're on it.

>

> I do think it's a fine balance. I think you need adrenal support

to

> increase your ability to tolerate thyroid hormone, but also the

> thyroid hormone assists with your ability to tolerate adrenal

> support. Hope that makes sense!

>

> After reading your posts I conclude that you have less pain when

> your FT4 is above mid-range, is that correct? I have had chronic

> pain for years and on Armour only with a low FT4.

>

>