Re: I have some VCO that doesn't seem all that virginal

July 22, 2005

On 7/22/05, Naomi Giuliano <n.giuliano@...> wrote:

> Does this mean that they may contain partially hydrogenated oils? I

> thought I saw a thread in here that this might be the case. Someone on

> one of the coconut lists said it could have palm oil, which I guess is

> okay, but still annoying.

Since I ran out of QFI, I've been buying Garden of Life by the pint

from Whole Foods. In our weather here, it has been consistently

liquid not long after coming home from the store. However, I

accidentally misplaced the jar today after shopping and had it in a

bag on the floor instead of the cabinet, and it was still mostly solid

a few hours later. So I think that might be normal. I don't know

what the temperature difference is on the floor versus five feet

above, but perhaps it can make the difference.

The melting point of CO is 78.8F. I don't know what the possible

variation is between what your thermosat says and what the oil inside

of a jar on the floor is, but it seems quite possible that your oil

could be pure and that could be normal.

Not saying that it IS pure (never heard of the brand), but it doesn't

seem particularly suspicious to me.

Chris

July 22, 2005

That's reassuring, although it seems like the Jungle brand was liquid

days before the Nature's Miracle. I'm just going to bite the bullet

and get some QFI! Maybe I can keep the other stuff to use on my skin.

Even if it's virgin mixed with hydrogentated, that should still be

good for skin application, I hope.

Naomi

On 7/22/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>

> Since I ran out of QFI, I've been buying Garden of Life by the pint

> from Whole Foods. In our weather here, it has been consistently

> liquid not long after coming home from the store. However, I

> accidentally misplaced the jar today after shopping and had it in a

> bag on the floor instead of the cabinet, and it was still mostly solid

> a few hours later. So I think that might be normal. I don't know

> what the temperature difference is on the floor versus five feet

> above, but perhaps it can make the difference.

>

> The melting point of CO is 78.8F. I don't know what the possible

> variation is between what your thermosat says and what the oil inside

> of a jar on the floor is, but it seems quite possible that your oil

> could be pure and that could be normal.

>

> Not saying that it IS pure (never heard of the brand), but it doesn't

> seem particularly suspicious to me.

>

> Chris

> On 7/22/05, Naomi Giuliano <n.giuliano@...> wrote:

>

> > Does this mean that they may contain partially hydrogenated oils? I

> > thought I saw a thread in here that this might be the case. Someone on

> > one of the coconut lists said it could have palm oil, which I guess is

> > okay, but still annoying.

July 23, 2005

Naomi-

>A few weeks ago, when the temperature started to climb, I noticed that

>the Jungle brand was getting mostly liquid. The other stuff was still

>semi-solid. When the house maintained about a 76ËšF temperature, the

>Jungle VCO was completely liquid. The other stuff was mostly liquid,

>with a semi-solid white chunk. Now that it's been about 84Ëš for the

>last couple of days, the Nature's Miracle jar on the counter is

>finally liquid. However, the jars in a paper bag on the floor are

>still semi-solid.

It might be worth looking into the company (I've never heard of " Nature's

Miracle) but it doesn't necessarily mean much. You could also try directly

measuring the temperature of the CO in question. Just because your

thermometer says it's 76 or 84 or whatever doesn't mean that every part of

the room is that temperature. I have some Quality First International VCO

(which as far as we all know is outstanding and real) that I transferred to

gallon glass jars, and even in this heat wave, the jars in the cabinet in

the living room are often partly solid, while the jar in the kitchen is

always liquid.

-

July 24, 2005

Naomi wrote:

> Imagine my delight and surprise when I found some VCO in my local

> Asian supermarket (called " Nature's Miracle " from the ines).

A

> pint for $3.99! How could I resist? I bought one, brought it home to

> smell test it. It smelled like fresh coconuts. I went back and got

the

> rest, about 5 more.

>

> Well, it was still relatively cool in my house, about 70 degrees F.

> Everything was semi-solid.

>

> A few weeks ago, when the temperature started to climb, I noticed

that

> the Jungle brand was getting mostly liquid. The other stuff was

still

> semi-solid. When the house maintained about a 76ËšF temperature, the

> Jungle VCO was completely liquid. The other stuff was mostly liquid,

> with a semi-solid white chunk. Now that it's been about 84Ëš for the

> last couple of days, the Nature's Miracle jar on the counter is

> finally liquid. However, the jars in a paper bag on the floor are

> still semi-solid.

>

> Does this mean that they may contain partially hydrogenated oils? I

> thought I saw a thread in here that this might be the case. Someone

on

> one of the coconut lists said it could have palm oil, which I guess

is

> okay, but still annoying.

I had the same problem with some commercial coconut oil that I bought

at the local HFS. This wasn't partially melted oil - the entire jar

had a mixture of melted and solid oil. It was a mystery to me until

I found out that hydrogenated coconut oil has a much higher melting

temperature (IIRC it's in the 90 degree range).

~~ Jocelyne

July 24, 2005

On 7/23/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

>

> It might be worth looking into the company (I've never heard of " Nature's

> Miracle) but it doesn't necessarily mean much. You could also try directly

> measuring the temperature of the CO in question. Just because your

> thermometer says it's 76 or 84 or whatever doesn't mean that every part of

> the room is that temperature. I have some Quality First International VCO

> (which as far as we all know is outstanding and real) that I transferred to

> gallon glass jars, and even in this heat wave, the jars in the cabinet in

> the living room are often partly solid, while the jar in the kitchen is

> always liquid.

>

, the only reason why I got suspicious is because my other oil was

completely liquid days before the Nature's Miracle VCO was.

Someone on the Coconut Oil was kind enough to forward me

the e-mail address, and I wrote them. The reason why I couldn't find

them searching on Google is because their company name was in Tagalog!

Naomi

July 24, 2005

On 7/24/05, jag14h <jag14@...> wrote:

> I had the same problem with some commercial coconut oil that I bought

> at the local HFS. This wasn't partially melted oil - the entire jar

> had a mixture of melted and solid oil. It was a mystery to me until

> I found out that hydrogenated coconut oil has a much higher melting

> temperature (IIRC it's in the 90 degree range).

>

> ~~ Jocelyn

That is how mine was. I cringe to think there might be some

hydrogenated oil in there! The label goes on and on about the virtues

of VCO, and it appears the company sponsors seminars on it:

http://www.abante.com.ph/issue/may2105/public_bk.htm

What a cruel subterfuge if they add hydrogenated oils.

At the bottom of the page is the company: " BALAG NG BAHAY KUBO, " I

believe (I don't know Tagalog— someone directed me to this address).

Next time, I will order online from a well-established company! Forget

these " bargains. "

Naomi

July 24, 2005

On 7/24/05, Naomi Giuliano <n.giuliano@...> wrote:

> On 7/24/05, jag14h <jag14@...> wrote:

>

> > I had the same problem with some commercial coconut oil that I bought

> > at the local HFS. This wasn't partially melted oil - the entire jar

> > had a mixture of melted and solid oil. It was a mystery to me until

> > I found out that hydrogenated coconut oil has a much higher melting

> > temperature (IIRC it's in the 90 degree range).

> >

> > ~~ Jocelyn

>

> That is how mine was. I cringe to think there might be some

> hydrogenated oil in there! The label goes on and on about the virtues

> of VCO, and it appears the company sponsors seminars on it:

> http://www.abante.com.ph/issue/may2105/public_bk.htm

> What a cruel subterfuge if they add hydrogenated oils.

That's pretty normal. I don't see any reason to expect the

" meltedness " of the oil to be consistent throughout the jar, for two

reasons: first, it is composed of different fatty acids with different

chain lengths, so, to the extent that some triglycerides might be

more populated with longer-chain-length fatty acids than others, they

might cluster together when it's in a transition phase; second, the

temperature isn't necessarily going to be consistent throughout the

jar.

And in fact, I think any phase transition with any oil is exactly as

you describe. Take some hard coconut oil and heat it in a saucepan on

low heat. You won't find it melting consistently-- you'll find a big

chunk of solid CO with melted around it. For that matter, do the same

with chocolate or butter. If you keep CLO in the fridge, take a look

at it, and you'll see that part of it at the bottom might be partially

solidified or at least thicker than other parts.

This website:

http://www.missionpeaksoap.com/coconut_oil_for_sale.htm

.... sells both forms of CO, and their partially hydrogenated version

is actually more expensive than the non-hydrogenated version (they

sell it for soapmaking). The partially hydrogenated oil, as well as

the other, is RBD.

Given the extra expense, and the complete lack of added benefit if it

isn't being used for an industrial purpose, the claim to " virgin "

status and the resultant credibility risk of doing an expensive and

unnecessary procedure for no reason, and the complete lack of any

evidence of hydrogenation make it seem somewhat premature to be

suspecting the oil of hydrogenation.

Yes, I too would by from a source I knew better or that had a

reputation for safety, but it's kind of a jump, to say the least, to

assume the oil's hydrogenated!

Chris

July 24, 2005

Naomi-

>, the only reason why I got suspicious is because my other oil was

>completely liquid days before the Nature's Miracle VCO was.

I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't be suspicious -- suspicion is often

the only weapon you have to defend yourself and your family with! But like

and I said, it's not always obviously uniform in melting.

>Someone on the Coconut Oil was kind enough to forward me

>the e-mail address, and I wrote them. The reason why I couldn't find

>them searching on Google is because their company name was in Tagalog!

That'd sure do it!

-

July 24, 2005

On 7/24/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>

> That's pretty normal. I don't see any reason to expect the

> " meltedness " of the oil to be consistent throughout the jar, for two

> reasons: first, it is composed of different fatty acids with different

> chain lengths, so, to the extent that some triglycerides might be

> more populated with longer-chain-length fatty acids than others, they

> might cluster together when it's in a transition phase; second, the

> temperature isn't necessarily going to be consistent throughout the

> jar.

That's good to know! I wouldn't have even been concerned if it weren't

for the fact that my other VCO was completely liquid long before the

Nature's Miracle. But maybe there's temperature variations because

one's in a glass jar, and the other, plastic.

>

> And in fact, I think any phase transition with any oil is exactly as

> you describe. Take some hard coconut oil and heat it in a saucepan on

> low heat. You won't find it melting consistently-- you'll find a big

> chunk of solid CO with melted around it.

Very true!

I won't have to be doing any melting for a while...

> For that matter, do the same

> with chocolate or butter. If you keep CLO in the fridge, take a look

> at it, and you'll see that part of it at the bottom might be partially

> solidified or at least thicker than other parts.

>

> This website:

> http://www.missionpeaksoap.com/coconut_oil_for_sale.htm

>

> ... sells both forms of CO, and their partially hydrogenated version

> is actually more expensive than the non-hydrogenated version (they

> sell it for soapmaking). The partially hydrogenated oil, as well as

> the other, is RBD.

>

> Given the extra expense, and the complete lack of added benefit if it

> isn't being used for an industrial purpose, the claim to " virgin "

> status and the resultant credibility risk of doing an expensive and

> unnecessary procedure for no reason, and the complete lack of any

> evidence of hydrogenation make it seem somewhat premature to be

> suspecting the oil of hydrogenation.

I never have guessed that the hydrogenated one would be more expensive.

>

> Yes, I too would by from a source I knew better or that had a

> reputation for safety, but it's kind of a jump, to say the least, to

> assume the oil's hydrogenated!

I'm wondering if I should just use it for my skin, to be on the safe

side, and get the QFI for eating.

Naomi

July 25, 2005

On 7/24/05, Naomi Giuliano <n.giuliano@...> wrote:

> I never have guessed that the hydrogenated one would be more expensive.

Hydrogenation is an added technical expense. I think it's used often

for cheap oils because it prolongs the shelf life of vegetable oil for

so long. But when virgin CO has a shelf life of 3 years or so, it's

hard to imagine why hydrogenation would decrease expenses. I think in

general it would be hydrogenated to make it harder. That could be

beneficial to the texture of some junk food, and to the hardness of a

bar of soap.

> > Yes, I too would by from a source I knew better or that had a

> > reputation for safety, but it's kind of a jump, to say the least, to

> > assume the oil's hydrogenated!

>

> I'm wondering if I should just use it for my skin, to be on the safe

> side, and get the QFI for eating.

Well I think it would be worth inquiring by the email about their

production practices, but if you find anything toxic enough about it

not to eat it, I personally wouldn't be putting it on my skin! I

mean, I wouldn't rub Crisco on my skin!

Chris

July 25, 2005

On 7/25/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>

> Hydrogenation is an added technical expense. I think it's used often

> for cheap oils because it prolongs the shelf life of vegetable oil for

> so long. But when virgin CO has a shelf life of 3 years or so, it's

> hard to imagine why hydrogenation would decrease expenses. I think in

> general it would be hydrogenated to make it harder. That could be

> beneficial to the texture of some junk food, and to the hardness of a

> bar of soap.

If it were a combination of VCO and other (RBD) oils, would the

refined ones color and/or change the way the oil smelled? When solid,

it is completely white, with no yellow tinge. It has a nice coconut

smell, too, unlike my certified VCO that I was comparing it to.

[i wrote:]

> > I'm wondering if I should just use it for my skin, to be on the safe

> > side, and get the QFI for eating.

>

> Well I think it would be worth inquiring by the email about their

> production practices, but if you find anything toxic enough about it

> not to eat it, I personally wouldn't be putting it on my skin! I

> mean, I wouldn't rub Crisco on my skin!

That's funny you should mention Crisco. Some books on saving money on

skin care advocate that you replace your face cream/make-up remover

with it! A friend of mine tried this, and I remember her complaining

that it made her skin greasy and acneic. I use VCO on my face and body

(at least I think I do, lol), and it absorbs well. Now that it's hot,

and stays melted, I use it with essential oils as a carrier oil. It

came in handy mixed with peppermint and lavendar when I was out by the

lake the other night. No bug bites!

Naomi

July 25, 2005

On 7/25/05, Naomi Giuliano <n.giuliano@...> wrote:

> If it were a combination of VCO and other (RBD) oils, would the

> refined ones color and/or change the way the oil smelled? When solid,

> it is completely white, with no yellow tinge. It has a nice coconut

> smell, too, unlike my certified VCO that I was comparing it to.

I'm not sure. RBD should be less colorful and odorless I would think,

so I don't know if it would tinge it or make it smell bad. VCO is

supposed to be, I've read, completely white while solid and clear like

water when melted. However, if it isn't *entirely* melted you could

have white swirled into it.

> That's funny you should mention Crisco. Some books on saving money on

> skin care advocate that you replace your face cream/make-up remover

> with it!

How tragicomic.

> A friend of mine tried this, and I remember her complaining

> that it made her skin greasy and acneic. I use VCO on my face and body

> (at least I think I do, lol), and it absorbs well.

I put it sometimes on my face and body, and every day put some into my

hair and massage my scalp. It's helping to exfoliate the damage I did

to my scalp with hair gel, and just a little makes my hair more

manageble with good hold without the crusty feeling of gel.

> Now that it's hot,

> and stays melted, I use it with essential oils as a carrier oil. It

> came in handy mixed with peppermint and lavendar when I was out by the

> lake the other night. No bug bites!

Cool. Peppermint and lavendar ward off bugs?

Chris

July 25, 2005

> That's pretty normal. I don't see any reason to expect the

> " meltedness " of the oil to be consistent throughout the jar, for two

> reasons: first, it is composed of different fatty acids with different

> chain lengths, so, to the extent that some triglycerides might be

> more populated with longer-chain-length fatty acids than others, they

> might cluster together when it's in a transition phase; second, the

> temperature isn't necessarily going to be consistent throughout the

> jar.

I have tried five different brands of CO, stored in the same location

and there was only one that melted in this manner. Something was

different about it - I may not be able to pinpoint what it is, but it

was definitely not the norm. I decided not to use it again, and bought

another brand.

~~ Jocelyne

July 25, 2005

On 7/25/05, jag14h <jag14@...> wrote:

>

> I have tried five different brands of CO, stored in the same location

> and there was only one that melted in this manner. Something was

> different about it - I may not be able to pinpoint what it is, but it

> was definitely not the norm. I decided not to use it again, and bought

> another brand.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the phenomenon you're talking about, I

don't think I've ever seen anything that doesn't melt that way. It is

just the way everything melts. Could it not have been coincidence?

It isn't always the same temperature. Maybe the container was

different or the temperature was closer to the melting point, causing

it to be mid-phase transition rather than completely melted?

Chris

July 26, 2005

On 7/25/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>

> I put it sometimes on my face and body, and every day put some into my

> hair and massage my scalp. It's helping to exfoliate the damage I did

> to my scalp with hair gel, and just a little makes my hair more

> manageble with good hold without the crusty feeling of gel.

Wow, that's alarming: Attack of the Killer Hair Gel? Did it have

mineral oil or something flammable? Sounds scary.

[i wrote:]

> > Now that it's hot,

> > and stays melted, I use it with essential oils as a carrier oil. It

> > came in handy mixed with peppermint and lavendar when I was out by the

> > lake the other night. No bug bites!

>

> Cool. Peppermint and lavendar ward off bugs?

Yes. You only need a drop of each in two teaspoons of oil (you can

also use two drops of either by themselves. Peppermint works better,

but it's not for sensitive skin).

If you have to leave a window or door open that has no screen, drop

peppermint oil near the opening and it will also keep the critters

away. Not to mention it smells great.

Naomi

July 26, 2005

> If you have to leave a window or door open that has no screen, drop

> peppermint oil near the opening and it will also keep the critters

> away. Not to mention it smells great.

>

> Naomi

Hmmm...I wonder if chewing mint gum will help confuse the mosquitoes?

July 26, 2005

>

> > I have tried five different brands of CO, stored in the same

location

> > and there was only one that melted in this manner. Something was

> > different about it - I may not be able to pinpoint what it is,

but it

> > was definitely not the norm. I decided not to use it again, and

bought

> > another brand.

>

> Unless I'm misunderstanding the phenomenon you're talking about, I

> don't think I've ever seen anything that doesn't melt that way. It

is

> just the way everything melts. Could it not have been coincidence?

> It isn't always the same temperature. Maybe the container was

> different or the temperature was closer to the melting point,

causing

> it to be mid-phase transition rather than completely melted?

>

> Chris

This was observed last summer when the house temperature was well

above the melting point of CO and had been for a number of days. I

will try to describe what it looked like - if you took a jar and

filled it with irregularly-shaped small chunks of wax (loosely

packed) and then filled the spaces around it with liquid. This was

not a solid melting from the outside-in. It was quite strange. I'm

not sure if that is the same thing that Naomi was looking at, but

that is what I observed. I have had different brands of CO in both

plastic and glass, and seen different ratios of solid/melted CO, but

this was something completely different.

~~ Jocelyne

July 26, 2005

On 7/26/05, jag14h <jag14@...> wrote:

> This was observed last summer when the house temperature was well

> above the melting point of CO and had been for a number of days. I

> will try to describe what it looked like - if you took a jar and

> filled it with irregularly-shaped small chunks of wax (loosely

> packed) and then filled the spaces around it with liquid. This was

> not a solid melting from the outside-in. It was quite strange. I'm

> not sure if that is the same thing that Naomi was looking at, but

> that is what I observed. I have had different brands of CO in both

> plastic and glass, and seen different ratios of solid/melted CO, but

> this was something completely different.

Oh, I see now. That's pretty weird and suspicious.

Chris

July 27, 2005

On 7/26/05, <toyotaokiec@...> wrote:

> Hmmm...I wonder if chewing mint gum will help confuse the mosquitoes?

,

It may discourage them from flying near or into your mouth. : )

Naomi

> I wrote:

> > If you have to leave a window or door open that has no screen, drop

> > peppermint oil near the opening and it will also keep the critters

> > away. Not to mention it smells great.

> >

> > Naomi

>

July 27, 2005