Re: Hard to advocate WAP for some alternative groups

[Guest guest]

-

>Also, yes, I can see the point of the article - that the quality of

>breastmilk is affected by diet. But I can't believe that my SAD diet

>would make it less nutritious than any formula.

I haven't read that article in awhile, but I don't think it was arguing in

favor of ANY storebought formula, just the use of the breast milk

replacement recipe laid out in NT. And as far as that goes, I promise you

-- I _guarantee_ you -- that NT's recipe, provided it's made with good

ingredients, is a heck of a lot more nutritious than the milk many mothers

are able to produce. This is terribly said, but it's true.

-

[Guest guest]

Naomi-

Jeez, this is tragic.

>The reason I posted the article is that people on the list were

>maintaining that the quality of breastmilk didn't vary significantly

>with diet and/or that simply having a " decent " diet without white

>foods is good enough (this group is also anti-saturated fat, in case

>you couldn't guess).

>

>This despite the fact that their kids, and even the kids of some

>friends of mine who've followed the " expert's " diet advice have

>problems such as:

>

>tooth decay: crumbling enamel, holes, cavities (very common);

>strange intestinal, anal problems (my guess is whole, unsoaked grains

>being the culprit);

>behavioral problems, some bordering on autism, and Asperger's;

>toddler hair falling out where it rubs against a pillow.

-

[Guest guest]

On 7/23/05, Elaine <itchyink@...> wrote:

> Are vegans regularly getting their sickly children taken away by CPS, or has

> it been just a couple of sensationalized cases?

I think a couple of sensationalized cases. " Baby Andrei " is one of

them (if you google the name, it's one of the top stories).

> This woman sounds like a

> real pill. Perhaps you can address her directly and ask to please allow

> differing information without throwing up a wall of fire.

Maybe. But first I'll have to answer the 10 or so e-mails basically

giving a thumbs-down to WAP.

> I'm on a local AP

> group and one of the " experts " is also vegan. She recently had to have her

> gallbladder removed after becoming extremely sick.

My " expert " has arthritis, and she is relatively young, IIRC.

> She said the doctors were

> all mystified due to her very low-fat diet, and she went on to tell us all

> to eat low sat. fats. Then I posted the article from the WAPF site about how

> low-fat can cause gallbladder attacks. I hated to dog her when she was

> already down post surgery, but i just couldn't let that one slip by! It's a

> pity that natural parenting is automatically associated with veganism.

I know. This specific group has " vegan " and vegetarian in the

description. Buyer beware! If you're a prospective parent looking for

a group, be sure to test the waters before you get committed.

> On

> the group that split, it was dominated by vegans until one lone WAPer spoke

> up, a lot of people converted and felt tons better and watched their

> children grow like a foot in a month, and then the battles began with the

> embittered vegans.

I think that's what's happening in this group (some people are seeing

the light). One of the mothers whose middle child had horrible dental

problems finally bought NT, and is finding a local source for goat

milk, and she was previously anti-dairy like our " expert, " her friend.

She also started letting the kids eat meat more, since her youngest

wolfs it down any time she makes it.

Well, dh and dd are out of the house for a bit. I am thinking of

posting to the group today, before it gets too hot in here. Wish me

luck in the lion's den! LOL.

Naomi

[Guest guest]

On 7/23/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

>

> It'd be interesting to see what she'd make of _Nutrition and Physical

> Degeneration_. I once recommended it to a devout mainstream guy, and he

> asked me whether it was a novel.

<chuckle> What would it be under, Mystery? Sci-fi?

Naomi

[Guest guest]

On 7/23/05, Stump <rstump@...> wrote:

> That is just the problem I see. The article has an extreme bias to her

> particular situation as if that is the norm. It is not. Most women, even

> those on the SAD diet, can breastfeed their infant. Many times it takes the

> help of a lactation professional but they are able to do it. I think women

> give up to easily.

,

I agree with what you say in general. However, after reading Sally's

article, I remember all the times over the years when I was at LLL

meetings, or read e-mails from women who had BFing problems. It

sounded like they were having a much-harder time than normal. After

coming to the meetings a few times, or writing once or twice, they

would drop out, never to be heard from again. I now wonder what

happened with them.

Naomi

> -----Original Message-----

> From:

> [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>

>

> What if you were unable to produce sufficient milk for your child? (And I

> say child because as far as I can tell, kids should be breastfed up until

> around the age of four, though of course for much of that time they ought

> to be eating solids too.) I think I remember reading that Sally Fallon had

> that problem, which is quite possibly why she takes the defensive and

> aggressive tone she does on the subject.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 7/23/05, West <clairewest@...> wrote:

> And, if you have a " platform " to advocate for WAP, or anything

> else you believe in, great. But once you've said your piece, why continue

> to press it? Why is it so important to convince those who won't listen, who

> want only to fight you tooth and nail? We have some duty to speak the truth

> and try to help others, but after a certain point, we are only casting

> pearls before swine.

>

What's happening with me is that someone will express an interest in

raw dairy, or increasing meat in their diet, so I'll post a few

interesting links. Then the list's " expert " comes along and blindsides

me with all her anti- stats and figures, blah, blah, eat less sat.

fats, blah. She has the advantage that her kid is older, so she has a

ton of time to research her side, while I have an active toddler so

I'm lucky if I get a sentence in that doesn't have a typo. After a

year of this (basically, since I got NT and discovered WAP), it's

really getting old. It doesn't help that the pro-vegans come out of

the woodwork to support her, while the kefir-drinkers remain silent

(probably got young kids, too, most likely).

BTW, are you on my San Diego NT list? The one that's been inactive for

months? Your name sounds familiar.

Naomi

Elaine wrote:

> <Does anyone have specific ideas on how, then, to appeal to one's emotions

> in

> these kinds of debates? I have seen science wars with vegans and WAPers,

> each hurling their studies and anecdotes, and I would say the results are

> just more anger and division.

>

[Guest guest]

On 7/24/05, <harringtonwa@...> wrote:

> This article made me so mad I went to bed angry about it. It made me

> feel the way it did when I had my first child. I used to be so very

> very pro-breastfeeding and would NOT hear of anything else. I have

> since wisened up and allow other people to have their own opinions and

> choices without me saying much about it. I still think I'm right, I

> just don't have the need anymore for them to know that I am right.

I'm pretty much with you. I was one of those people who had so much

milk, my dd had to avert her face when I let down, sending a stream of

milk shooting to the floor (real fun in public). It was also quite

fatty the times I'd express due to engorgement, so my kid was very

plump until she started crawling.

In my old age (nearing 40, LOL), having talked to lots of different

mothers, I realize that many women have psychological hang-ups about

breastfeeding. This is not going to be overcome by reading The Womanly

Art of Breastfeeding or going to LLL meetings. It's unfortunate, but

even here in soCal, you'll see women in the scorching weather putting

a blanket over their nursing baby. I go to a Mommy-and-me class, and

the nursing mothers are doing the same, even though there's not a man

in sight! So it's not just being in the general public (with some

curious male peepers) that's the problem.

>

> Also, yes, I can see the point of the article - that the quality of

> breastmilk is affected by diet. But I can't believe that my SAD diet

> would make it less nutritious than any formula.

I was hoping the article would would encourage mothers to eat a more

optimal diet, and get a discussion started on what that was. But

instead, they're up in arms because it dares criticize LLL.

>

> I know I am way behind on this thread. I WISH that I could come and

> join your list to help argue the case for WAP.

Me too! I still haven't gone over there yet to post. It's much nicer

in here! <g>

> This list has already

> got too much volume for me to keep up with at the moment. Sadly, I want

> to try and get into the off topic posts that interest me but I keep

> falling behind.

I love this list, but at times the volume overwhelms me too. I have

unread messages from back in April!

>

> That article freaked me out a bit too. I hope my milk is up to par at

> the moment - my diet is not as good as it could be!

My dd is almost three, so we're down to about the three standard

nursings (waking, nap, nighttime), and any extra she can sneak in. On

the one hand, I love that we have that relationship, but on the other,

I can't wait until she completely weans so I can do some sort of liver

cleanse and short-term fasting of some kind. I feel like I'm overdue

for something like that.

> said:

>

> > I have

> > just begun to supplement my son at 1 year and appreciate that I don't have

> > to give him the plain store bought junk as an alternative.

>

replied:

> Oh? I'll have to look into this now...? Mine (13 mos) has only just

> started drinking other liquids. I was going to try to get him to take

> raw goats milk whilst I could get it, but he was spitting it out

> everywhere. And now I can't get any for a while. He still having four

> or five feeds. Not proper feeds I know. More for comfort I'm sure.

> And the bugger will not sleep through!

That's a hard age! My dd was still nursing quite a bit then. She does

not like liquid dairy very much (probably because she's half Mexican

from her dad, and part Japanese and a sliver of Native American from

me) so that's a bummer. She has sugar issues, like me, so I very

rarely let her have any fruit juices. I've started experimenting with

making kefir pops, and that's going pretty well. But it's been so hot

I've been neglecting the three Ks lately (kefir, kombucha, kimchi).

Naomi

[Guest guest]

On 7/23/05, Elaine <itchyink@...> wrote:

> An interesting side note that came up on my mom's group: some of has breast

> milk that stains horribly, others' doesn't stain at all. I think we all use

> natural detergents so i'm thinking it's the fat content of the breast milk.

> Elaine

Hmmm, I don't know what to make of this. I had quite fatty breast

milk, but I don't remember it staining my clothes. Maybe it's because

I used pads 24/7? I leaked insane amounts.

OTOH, you know what stains and smells horribly? Formula spit-up! I

used to dread that when I was a nanny. I should've gotten a supplement

for buying shirts for that gig. You'd think that smell would be

enough for people to get their kids off it!

Naomi

[Guest guest]

Naomi,

<After a year of this (basically, since I got NT and discovered WAP), it's

really getting old.

And it could make you old, or at least gray, before your time. <g>

<BTW, are you on my San Diego NT list? The one that's been inactive for

months? Your name sounds familiar.

Yes, I noticed your name too (which has a memorable lilt to it), but wasn't

sure it was from the S.D. list. I still hear from one of the members off

list (Fred), but everyone else seems long gone.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

Naomi-

><chuckle> What would it be under, Mystery? Sci-fi?

LOL! I never even thought about that! Fantasy, obviously.

-

[Guest guest]

On 7/24/05, West <clairewest@...> wrote:

> Naomi,

>

> <After a year of this (basically, since I got NT and discovered WAP), it's

> really getting old.

>

> And it could make you old, or at least gray, before your time. <g>

Well, after soaking up the WAP-y vibes over here, I answered a few

posts over there, and so far, so good.

>

> <BTW, are you on my San Diego NT list? The one that's been inactive for

> months? Your name sounds familiar.

>

> Yes, I noticed your name too (which has a memorable lilt to it),

Thanks!

> but wasn't

> sure it was from the S.D. list. I still hear from one of the members off

> list (Fred), but everyone else seems long gone.

I mainly hear from GloriaMarie, but that's because she's into

knitting and so am I.

It was annoying that the list got some vegetarians on it who

obviously hadn't read WAP or even NT, and didn't seem curious about

it.

If you ever find a good source of local grass-fed meats and such, feel

free to write me off-list. I am thinking of keeping a few chickens in

the suburbs of Rancho Peñasquitos! I need to research it, especially

getting a chicken tractor.

Naomi

[Guest guest]

On 7/24/05, Naomi Giuliano <n.giuliano@...> wrote:

> On 7/23/05, West <clairewest@...> wrote:

>

> > And, if you have a " platform " to advocate for WAP, or anything

> > else you believe in, great. But once you've said your piece, why continue

> > to press it? Why is it so important to convince those who won't listen, who

> > want only to fight you tooth and nail? We have some duty to speak the truth

> > and try to help others, but after a certain point, we are only casting

> > pearls before swine.

> >

>

> What's happening with me is that someone will express an interest in

> raw dairy, or increasing meat in their diet, so I'll post a few

> interesting links. Then the list's " expert " comes along and blindsides

> me with all her anti- stats and figures, blah, blah, eat less sat.

> fats, blah. She has the advantage that her kid is older, so she has a

> ton of time to research her side, while I have an active toddler so

> I'm lucky if I get a sentence in that doesn't have a typo. After a

> year of this (basically, since I got NT and discovered WAP), it's

> really getting old. It doesn't help that the pro-vegans come out of

> the woodwork to support her, while the kefir-drinkers remain silent

> (probably got young kids, too, most likely).

Forget the list. You are on someone else's turf which apparently she

guards jealously for anyone who doesn't toe the line nutritionally.

In the future you might want to preempt the resident expert by saying

something like

" here are some links/articles you might find interesting. Please be

aware that the list owner does not agree with the information

contained in this material and may even recommend other things to

read. That is a good thing. None of us have a corner on the truth. But

at least this way you will have a chance to examine both sides and

make an informed decision on what *you* think is best for you and your

baby/children. Wishing you all the best. "

And then be done with it. You have discharged your duty. You have sent

the information AND prepared her for the coming counterattack. You

have done all you can do. The rest is up to her.

take care,

[Guest guest]

Naomi,

<If you ever find a good source of local grass-fed meats and such, feel

free to write me off-list. I am thinking of keeping a few chickens in

the suburbs of Rancho Peñasquitos! I need to research it, especially

getting a chicken tractor.

I've given up looking locally. Right now I'm getting my lamb (liver)and fat

(intestinal) from FoxFire farms and my bison (heart) either from Northstar

or a new company I'll decide on soon. I was getting chicken from Trader

Joes, but the sockeye season is here and I can get the Alaskan salmon at

TJ's for less and I'm happier with it (no soy).

I used to live near you--first in Poway and then Rancho Bernardo--and I'd

certainly travel back to buy some of your eggs when you have them! It

couldn't be a longer trip than going to La Jolla for the ones from New

Zealand! <g>

Let me know when your ladies start laying.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

IMO, LLL didn't help me. I needed a real LC. Sometimes to me LLL is too

militant and doesn't take into account that women may have lives, other

children, emotional issues, PPD, etc.

I agree that most any woman can breastfeed. Many times it is more lack of

knowledge and sometimes enough effort but some times it is BAD advice and

not enough one on one support.

I love LLL but I can see how someone could go twice and not feeling like

they got real support. They would rather give up than fight through it more.

I am glad that WAP has an alternative. I LOVE that I can supplement my

child at this age (13 months) and feel like I know what to add extra to

increase his nutrition. It is so hard to feed a toddler when all they want

to do is walk, climb, run. Many times (atleast mine) don't have time to sit

down and eat. If I can get them on the go with some good liquid

nutrition...I LOVE IT.

Blessings,

Re: Hard to advocate WAP for some " alternative " groups

On 7/23/05, Stump <rstump@...> wrote:

> That is just the problem I see. The article has an extreme bias to her

> particular situation as if that is the norm. It is not. Most women, even

> those on the SAD diet, can breastfeed their infant. Many times it takes

the

> help of a lactation professional but they are able to do it. I think

women

> give up to easily.

,

I agree with what you say in general. However, after reading Sally's

article, I remember all the times over the years when I was at LLL

meetings, or read e-mails from women who had BFing problems. It

sounded like they were having a much-harder time than normal. After

coming to the meetings a few times, or writing once or twice, they

would drop out, never to be heard from again. I now wonder what

happened with them.

Naomi

> -----Original Message-----

> From:

> [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>

>

> What if you were unable to produce sufficient milk for your child? (And I

> say child because as far as I can tell, kids should be breastfed up until

> around the age of four, though of course for much of that time they ought

> to be eating solids too.) I think I remember reading that Sally Fallon

had

> that problem, which is quite possibly why she takes the defensive and

> aggressive tone she does on the subject.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/05, West <clairewest@...> wrote:

> I've given up looking locally. Right now I'm getting my lamb (liver)and fat

> (intestinal) from FoxFire farms and my bison (heart) either from Northstar

> or a new company I'll decide on soon.

Those companies sound good, except that I don't like lamb. But maybe

theirs is better-tasting than what I've tried...

> I was getting chicken from Trader

> Joes, but the sockeye season is here and I can get the Alaskan salmon at

> TJ's for less and I'm happier with it (no soy).

Every time I've looked, they only have farmed, but this is in Carmel

Mt. Ranch. It could be out of stock by the time I get there, too. They

often run out of the grass-fed ground beef.

>

> I used to live near you--first in Poway and then Rancho Bernardo--and I'd

> certainly travel back to buy some of your eggs when you have them! It

> couldn't be a longer trip than going to La Jolla for the ones from New

> Zealand! <g>

Do you have a Ralph's near you? I was amazed that the one near me

sells the New Zealand eggs! Granted, they're slightly more expensive

than at Jimbo's (dunno the price at Whole Paycheck), but it's good to

know there's an alternate source, and that grass-fed, organic

standards are finally penetrating the mainstream.

> Let me know when your ladies start laying.

Will do!

Naomi

[Guest guest]

>

>Let me know when your ladies start laying.

>

>

>http://www.taichi4seniors.com

I was out of town for 2 weeks, and MY ladies started laying. Maybe

just 2, as we're getting about an egg a day so far, but this AM wife

and I each had 2 pullet eggs with ORANGE yolks. Mmmm.

It felt odd though to be gone for " baby's first steps " .

[Guest guest]

> Forget the list. You are on someone else's turf which apparently she

> guards jealously for anyone who doesn't toe the line nutritionally.

>

> In the future you might want to preempt the resident expert by

saying

> something like

>

> " here are some links/articles you might find interesting. Please be

> aware that the list owner does not agree with the information

> contained in this material and may even recommend other things to

> read. That is a good thing. None of us have a corner on the truth.

But

> at least this way you will have a chance to examine both sides and

> make an informed decision on what *you* think is best for you and

your

> baby/children. Wishing you all the best. "

>

> And then be done with it. You have discharged your duty. You have

sent

> the information AND prepared her for the coming counterattack. You

> have done all you can do. The rest is up to her.

>

> take care,

>

>

,

That was a fine suggestion. I wish I'd thought of it! ;-)

[Guest guest]

Naomi,

Ralphs?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so envious. I'm sure you can't be coughing up the $8+ per dozen I am

at Whole Foods. Is this Frenz eggs?

I just called the Ralphs in Oceanside. The manager said different Ralphs

have different structures, so he doesn't think he can help me, but is going

to research it.

Ralphs???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

<I was out of town for 2 weeks, and MY ladies started laying.

Congratulations, . Aren't you also from the SD NT?

I wish I could raise chickens but a) I'm in a condo complex and it's on

the second floor.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

....but the sockeye season is here and I can get the Alaskan salmon at

> TJ's for less and I'm happier with it (no soy)...

,

Unless something has changed, the " Alaskan " salmon at TJ's is farmed.

Alaskan on the label doesn't mean what you think it might. Merely

the type of fish.

B.

[Guest guest]

,

This is " wild Alaskan. " I think maybe you're thinking of Atlantic salmon

which is usually farmed. TJ's has this sockeye for only $7.49/lb which is a

lot less than even the sales on the net. The season for sockeye will be

over in another month or so, so I just bought about 6 pounds and will

probably buy some more soon -- as soon as they have a new supply in with no

air spaces in the vaccuum packaging. <g>

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

> This is " wild Alaskan. " I think maybe you're thinking of Atlantic

salmon

> which is usually farmed. TJ's has this sockeye for only $7.49/lb

which is a

> lot less than even the sales on the net...

,

Good for you; it's nice to find a deal. Thanks for the the news.

B.

/ever vigilant!

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of West

>

>This is " wild Alaskan. "

Don't be too sure. Someone posted a depressing article here not long ago in

which the author found out that some of the salmon labelled " wild " was

indeed farmed. Even the best and most experienced chefs in NY couldn't tell

the difference!!

:-(

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze,

<some of the salmon labelled " wild " was indeed farmed.>

Yes, I'd heard something like that, too, but I feel safe in this case

because . . .

1) The Trader Joe big green label has Wild Alskan printed (not stamped) on

it, and the back of that label repeats " Alaskan sockeye salmon " and then

" Wild Caught product of USA. "

2) This is the season for wild sockeye and it's the only time TJ's carries

this product

3) I think it may be easy to farm a salmon of a different breed to taste

like it's wild counterpart, but wild sockeye has an extremely strong and

distinctive flavor (not to mention color) -- especially strong and

distinctive if you're eating it raw.

4) Finally, I don't think I've ever seen farmed sockeye in a market, so it

might be one of those breeds that can't be farmed.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

Naomi wrote:

> My dd is almost three, so we're down to about the three standard

> nursings (waking, nap, nighttime), and any extra she can sneak in. On

> the one hand, I love that we have that relationship, but on the other,

> I can't wait until she completely weans so I can do some sort of liver

> cleanse and short-term fasting of some kind. I feel like I'm overdue

> for something like that.

>

Wow. You are a legend! My first dd gave up by herself at 18 months.

She was down to one bedtime feed and decided that she didn't need it

anymore. I was forced to wean other ds off at 5 mos to go back to work.

(expressing was never my forte). This one...? Who knows? At 12 mos he

looked like losing the daytime feeds but changed his mind after a few weeks.