Can the world live NT?

December 20, 2004

That sounds real good....but what about all the goose poop? They are pretty

dirty birds, aren't they? When I lived in Wisc. on a lake they were QUITE a

nuisance for everyone! It's hard to imagine wanting them around, letting them

attract more geese....it sounded great until I thought about that!

Our beaches were NASTY!! I've heard they carry germs and diseases or something

like that...that's what everbody up there said, they were worried about there

kids out barefooted by the lake. They try everything to to get RID of them( to

no avail...), now that I remember.... if someone could come up with a way to get

rid of them, someone would get rich!

--

Steve (thinks they're cool, but dirty...)

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December 20, 2004

> That sounds real good....but what about all the goose poop? They are pretty

dirty birds, aren't they? When I lived in Wisc. on a lake they were QUITE a

nuisance for everyone! It's hard to imagine wanting them around, letting them

attract more geese....it sounded great until I thought about that!

>

>Steve

It depends how many you have per plot of land. With the ducks and chickens, the

rain just kind of washes the poop into th soil and you don't see it. On

sidewalks, however, it's a pain! They are a nuisance unless they are penned ...

they will defend their territory and chase kids, some folks use them as burglar

alarms. But umm ... stuffed roast goose ... them being pests is a great thing,

no one gets too attached to them!

Heidi Jean

December 21, 2004

Heidi-

>But ... I think we can agree that fertile soil is generally MORE productive,

>not less.

Well, yes and no. It depends what you mean by " productive " . I'd certainly

agree fertile soil produces far more actual nutrition, but there are a lot

of different factors at work in modern agriculture. Besides the fertilizer

issue, species and varieties have been bred for volume yield, not

nutrition, so one step in a transition to a good, sustainable and

nutritious system of agriculture would be to abandon pretty much all modern

strains and hybrids and return to the most nutritious heirloom

varieties. There's no way around the fact that that would cut yields.

>Our soil is horrid, and gets way too much rain, and not enough sun (which

>is really the limiting factor!). But it grows great food, and adding fish

>fertilizer brings the minerals/biotics etc. up to par and more rather quickly.

That's the thing, though. When you're a tiny island of fertility, so to

speak, it's pretty easy to get hold of all sorts of manure, fish fertilizer

and so on because there's no demand for it. When all the farms in your

area start doing the same thing, though, and particularly with the oceans

being fished out, it'll get pretty much impossible to get the sort of

quantity of soil amendments that are required for a rapid turnaround.

>Given that in our current system we are dumping TONS of animal waste

>and sewage into the oceans, composting that and adding it to the soil

Oh, I agree it's a criminal waste, but there's a reason most of that waste

and sewage can't be used for fertilizer: it's far too polluted. (And if it

gets diverted from the oceans for anything in the next few years, I expect

it'll be for the everything-into-oil machines you post about periodically.)

>The bigger problem is mulching,

>which the farmers just don't do because it is too labor intensive.

Actually, simply not tilling after a harvest yields the biggest single

dividend in terms of stopping erosion. I don't know how fast no-till

farming is catching on, but I read about farmers adopting it in some

mainstream publication a few years ago, so it must be getting at least sort

of common.

>Interestingly I haven't seen anything about mulching in anything I've read

>about Albrecht or other " farm advice " .

Well, nobody has the whole story, unfortunately. You just have to piece

together the best of everything and try to make it all work together along

with what you figure out yourself.

>Could be, but animals have never had " ideal " grazing conditions

Bison had some pretty incredible grazing conditions on lots of the Great

Plains, actually.

>It's not necessarily eating " less " but " more effiiciently " . I don't know if I

>eat less calories now or not. But I used to bring home 10 BIG bags of

>groceries every week to feed our family and guests. Each of those bags

>had stuff that was inherently wasteful.

OK, well, that's kind of a separate question, and I certainly agree that

it's more efficient to buy rice than it is to buy Rice Krispies even just

in terms of all the energy that gets used to process and package the rice

into the cereal and deliver it and so on, but a lot of that energy cost has

little or nothing to do with the question of agricultural

sustainability. It'll get harder to make and sell that kind of crap as

energy gets more constrained, so the plain rice will become more

attractive, but what I'm talking about is how many people the US can

support in terrific health indefinitely (not in the kind of

spiraling-into-disaster condition we're in now from the s**t food we've

been eating for decades), and while that does require a minimization of

energy inputs to food production, the bigger question is just how many

calories of *good* food, particularly fatty grass-fed ruminant food, the

country can actual produce year in and year out.

> Add to that the lack of waste

>in the processing, and the lack of energy used in processing, and

>I'd say we are using about 2/3 less than we used to.

I'm not disputing the energy savings inherent in that kind of eating, and

it's certainly going to prove necessary for more and more people as peak

oil really hits in the coming years, but that really only addresses half

the question. How many bison/cows/deer/longhorns/sheep/goats/etc. can we

actually have grazing sustainably every year? How many can we actually

slaughter every year without killing them too soon for good nutrition?

I don't know the answer, but the estimates I've read from researchers

trying to figure out the impact of peak oil are that if we rejiggered

agriculture so it wasn't dependent on so much oil, the country could

sustainably support 200 million people. I don't know how accurate that

figure is given their dietary assumptions, but I'm willing to bet that

those assumptions require people to eat lots of grains and less meat and

animal fat than they are now. Presumably they think we should eat the

grain we're currently feeding cattle. The challenge is guessing what the

final number would be if we simply eliminate a lot of the grain production

in the first place and try to pasture-raise as many ruminants and chickens

and geese and whatnot as we possibly can... albeit with a bare minimum of

fuel input. (IOW probably using horses and sheepdogs for the actual

raising of the meat, and trying to distribute it as locally as feasible.)

>I'm not sure " the farmers " are really doing it right ... none of the ones

>I've seen are.

I agree, but only up to a point. I'm talking about the very best of the

best at the farmers' markets I've been to -- the top 2 or 3 out of dozens

upon dozens. The very best organic and biodynamic farms. And still their

produce leaves a lot to be desired. (When a non-trivial number of garlic

cloves are rotten, I think it's a pretty meaningful red flag.)

For that matter, I've gardened and reclaimed land myself, and I know how

time-consuming and input-intensive it can be; it just takes a different

kind of input. Not factory fertilizer, but manure. The thing is, though,

manure in the quantities I used (and for a very small plot at that) is only

available when manure is widely considered a waste product. When every

farmer is using every last drop of his own manure and wishing he had three

times as much, you have to use slower methods.

>But most of the

>world does NOT have great soil, never has: there are a few really great

>fertile spots which was where farming started. Nevertheless, humans

>were still a lot healthier before they started farming, even though

>presumably they were farming healthier land than we have now.

Yes! Exactly! My point is that most land isn't especially well-suited to

farming and can't produce really outstanding food no matter what you

do. Right now, most people who think modern agriculture isn't sustainable

are looking at the energy input problem, but they're missing the nutrient

output problem, which is even more serious. You can feed people with

sub-par food for awhile, sure, but eventually problems develop, and if

things continue on our current path, we're headed for a health catastrophe

of epic proportions. Heck, it's already happening, only the situation has

developed gradually enough that a lot of people have been fooled into

thinking it's just how things are supposed to be. But it can't continue

like this, and reversing it is going to require dramatic measures.

-

December 21, 2004

" " Yes! Exactly! My point is that most land isn't especially well-suited to

farming and can't produce really outstanding food no matter what you

do. " "

Well ,

I think you forgot about hydroponics.... I think alot of people are forgetting

about hydroponics. You can grow food for yourself in the middle of a concrete

parking lot if you wanted to! That is, if you WANTED to, and I have a feeling in

the coming days...people are going to HAVE to " want " to grow their own.

The more I hear, the more confident in what I'm pursuing I get, and that is to

set myself up, so that if the world melts down (when...) I can survive and be

totally self sufficient.

I feel that maybe people need to start to " fend for themseves " and their

families rather than relying on everyone else to provide for them...it's more

than just being gone all week and bringing home a little bit of $$$'s....so they

can go BUY crap food( and over-priced vehicles...), and have NO time to spend

with their families (or is that the way they like it?...)

Maybe if folks didn't WORK so much and accept a little " less " in

life...(which I believe they will have no choice about soon, from what I've been

hearing....) sometimes less is more....and if you really like to work so

much...there's PLENTY of work that goes into food production, and being self

sufficient! (probable alot more so than most " Joe Blows " out their putting in

their " 8-5 " :-) !!

I imagine that people are going to have to " fend " for themselves a little

more in the coming days....and folks that just can't move out into their own

acreage, can look into hydroponics! People can build their own setup on the

cheap, if they would spend more time reading and researching (and caring...)

rather than sit in front of that silly little box in the living room, listening

to all the mindless dribble that pours from it....most americans are pretty nice

people...but God they are stupid!

Doing things like Heidi does and grow your own greens and herbs....or I grow

sprouts, and micro greens,and planters of veggies indoors.... THAT'S " fending

for yourself " ! You can grow almost 50% of your food in the widowsills of your

home! Living, sprouted foods are VERY healthy, and very cheap!

Rabbits could be another source of homegrown, quality protein, along with

homegrown eggs, and a goat or two for milk....why do I need a job, once I get

set up like that? I'll bet I'll work harder than I do now....but the

satisfaction and security of that is something " money can't buy " !

" " Right now, most people who think modern agriculture isn't sustainable