RELIGION: intuition (OT) ( wasRe: dreaming and remembering)

[Guest guest]

On 7/21/05, José- s Barbosa <jcmbarbosa52@...> wrote:

> Interestingly, in more *primitive* religions, women seem to exert

> more explicit power. It`s said, for instance, that the curse of a man

> is mostly ineffectual, while a woman`s is fatal and almost impossible

> to be reverted. I expect women to have the same power with their

> blessings.

'

Can you shed any light on why the Virgin in South and Central

American Christianity has the same focus Jesus does here and

elsewhere? Often wondered wheather there is a cultural reason like

matriarchy and/or it made conversion easier by appealing to the women.

I'm adding the religion modifier likes and as co moderator should

demonstrate.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 08:40:27PM +0000, downwardog7 wrote:

>

>

> > '

> >

> > Can you shed any light on why the Virgin in South and Central

> > American Christianity has the same focus Jesus does here and

> > elsewhere? Often wondered wheather there is a cultural reason like

> > matriarchy and/or it made conversion easier by appealing to the women.

>

> Wanita,

> It's because of La Virgin de Guadalupe. Do you know the story? She

> appeared at the alter of an indigenous goddess, Tonanzin, speaking

> Nahuatl, to a peasant whose credibility/very existence is in doubt, at

> a time when the Catholic church was desparate for a way to convert the

> populace. She appeared to a poor indio, speaking his native tongue,

> and she had brown skin. Mass conversion ensued.

> B.

I thought she appeared to the boy out in nature, and a rose bloomed

out of season, and the boy wrapped up the petals in his cloak and took

them back to town. When they opened the cloak, there was the image of

Nuestra Sen~ora La Virgen de Guadalupe. Or maybe she appeared at the

site of a razed temple.

Anyway, I don't deny your take on it; I've always been fascinated by

syncretism.

[Guest guest]

On 7/21/05, José- s Barbosa <jcmbarbosa52@...> wrote:

> > What do you think about ordaining women priests?

> >

> >

> > Deanna

>

> Oh Deanna:

>

> Now I seem to realize that religion is really the hottest subject

> ever.

>

> You bring up a very intriguing question. It leads me directly into

> celibacy. I don't agree with the obligation of celibacy, though I

> believe in chastity. So maybe the first point should be: why not

> liberate Catholic priests from celibacy? It is all right if they

> choose it, but I don't think they should be obliged to embrace it, as

> it were.

Well they aren't according to the Sixth Ecumenical Council:

Therefore if anyone shall have dared, contrary to to the Apostolic

canons, to deprive a priest, deacon, or subdeacon, of cohabitation and

intercourse with his legitimate wife, let him be deposed. In like

manner also if any presbyter or deacon has dismissed his wife on

pretence of piety, let him be deposed...(canon 13).

Priestly celibacy is unique to the west, even before the schism, and

today is not even followed universally by the RC, as priest converts

who are already married are allowed to be priests.

> As for ordaining women, I really don't see any problem. In fact, I

> would long/work for it if I were a member of the Catholic Church,

> even as a male. The only caution is that it would be better for a

> woman to be ordained after her children, if she had any, were big

> enough not to be dependent on her any more. Well, this is the way our

> society functions, you know: children and mothers form an inseparable

> set. In order to dedicate herself to spiritual matters, I think a

> woman must be in a certain way child-free, but I can be wrong.

As far as Roman Catholicism goes, you may one day see some changes in

the priesthood But in the meantime, you will likely see married

priests and even married bishops before you see women ordained to the

priesthood. The former is not a matter of the faith but rather one of

pastoral practice, and has ample precedent in Church history. Lots of

married bishops in the Ancient Church, including St. .

As for the latter, it is a point of faith, a matter of typology, and

has absolutely no historical precedent. For such to occur requires an

abandoment of a key aspect of the faith, unlike the issue of priestly

celibacy.

But again these are weighty matters, and require something more than

the plausible but superficial notion that everything ought to be

available to everybody at all times. Perhaps on humanist assumptions,

but the Church is not a humanist institution.

It can be an interesting discussion, but one that requires a lot of

spade work before it can be fruitfully engaged, especially given some

of the assumptions of our modern society..

take care,

[Guest guest]

On 7/22/05, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

>. It is believed that Our Lady used the Aztec Nahuatl word of

> coatlaxopeuh which is pronounced " quatlasupe " and sounds remarkably

> like the Spanish word Guadalupe. Coa meaning serpent, tla being the

> noun ending which can be interpreted as " the " , while xopeuh means to

> crush or stamp out. So Our Lady must have called herself the one " who

> crushes the serpent1. " Serpent-god Quetzalcoatl. Certainly, in this

> case She crushed the serpent, and few years later millions of the

> natives were converted to Christianity. "

Thanks, ! More of serpents and prophecy.

The Iroquois Two Serpent Prophecy

http://wovoca.com/prophecy-iroquois.htm

MAD BEAR'S INTERPRETATION

from http://www.marcinequenzer.com/lastdays.htm

The first Serpent of white represents the Spirit. Over time the Spirit

convoluted with moral/religious concepts and began to take control of

the two legged. This can be interpreted specifically with Christianity

but I would take the step further, though it may offend some people,

to express that I believe that this is a universal concept and that

Handsome Lakes " prophesy " is an example of this convolution of

morality and spirit and that his writings have caused much disrupt

and deprivation to the Peacemakers original message of love and union.

The Serpent of White, then gets distracted by the Serpent of Red.

The Serpent of Red represents the lower body and all that is

associated with earthly gratification. This includes greed and

addictions. When the lower body takes over the Spirit (which has been

tainted by morality and religion) is enticed and then begins a battle

between morality and earthly gratification. This is played out both

individually as each individual soul walks the karmic journey toward

ascension. It is also reflected on an universal level as the mass

consciousness battles with the lower vibrations of greed and morality.

We see this reflected throughout the world and throughout time as

wars and destruction continue. This is even shown through weather

patterns as mother earth attempts to cleanse the vibrations of battle

that is placed on her and bring her self back to balance.

The battle of the red and white serpents continues until

the Back Serpent emerges. The Serpent of Black represents the

Emotional Body. The emotional body emerges. The white woman that

comes from the White Serpent's hair is representative of a Messenger

of Truth from Spirit free from the conflict of the morality and

religious control. She reminds the Black serpent or the emotional body

of the TRUTH. It takes the emotional body time to digest the truth

and even then He reacts in anger and adds to the fighting. It is not

the Black Serpent who helps the Two Legged because the fighting

continues and his intention is to continue the fighting even though it

has completed the emotional intention of ending the war between the

red and white serpent. He still remains within the Battle energy,

which the peacemaker originally buried under the tree of peace.

The emerging of the Peacemaker from the East as the golden

Yellow light is not a result of the black serpents battle but the

union of Young Male Prophets truth with the love of the Spirit

Messenger from White Serpent. Both are said to be standing on a rock.

This is the solid foundation of Mother Earth. Both are also said to be

messengers of Spirit. It is when both of them surface at one time

that The Peacemaker emerges.

(Possibly, the vibration of the twin flame. For more

information on twin flame vibration please check

http://www.tsl.org/twinflames/twinflames.asp. Some people believe that

Hiawatha and his wife were twin flames and that it was their union of

love that brought the Peacemaker forward so many years ago.)

After the return of the Peacemaker, the black serpent leaves for the

Sea and what is seen on his back is the droplets of water. Water has

been associated with emotions in many spiritual practices. The mention

of droplets of salt water can also be a reference to tears. The Sea

Water is also considered a healing tool by many practices.

The Red Serpent remains on the earth leaving a trail of blood behind.

These are two more associations that reflect the red serpent as

representing the Physical desires.

The White Serpent Splits, leaving the true Spirit to remain with the

two legged and sending the morality/ religious base to be cleansed by

the Sea and the Peacemakers vibration.

This as with all prophesy, is played out within each individual as

well as the mass consciousness, which dictates the state of the world.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

> > I don't think it is linked with

> >matriarchy, because I see most of Latin American as very patriarchal,

> >even more than the Anglo-Saxon world. So maybe here is another reason

> >for the devotion to : it was the women's attempt to restore a lost

> >balance with the males through the influence of religion.

I agree, ' . Am somewhat familiar with Latin America's

gender role and taboo imbalance. Attempt is an excellent descriptive.

Personally, mutual respect of both genders to the combined whole,

neither alone can make, accomplishes much more than something to one

up or persuade either otherwise. The ability to observe and discern

isn't lost.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

On 7/22/05, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> I'm not sure what you mean. I read that you are saying there are

> images of La Virgen de Guadalupe in first century Christian catacombs

> somewhere? In Europe, I presume? Meaning what--she had appeared

> previously? Or further evidence the incident was made up by the

> church administration to complete the conquest and Diego never

> existed?

Perhaps I completely misunderstood the point of your post and wasn't

following the thread correctly. I thought you were saying that the

importance of the Virgin to Roman Catholics south of the border was

due to the incident, and I was saying that she had been a highly

important figure in the church since the first century.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> Perhaps I completely misunderstood the point of your post and wasn't

> following the thread correctly. I thought you were saying that the

> importance of the Virgin to Roman Catholics south of the border was

> due to the incident, and I was saying that she had been a highly

> important figure in the church since the first century.

Oh no, I was saying she is especially beloved because her appearance

in Mexico *as the Virgin of Tepeyac/Guadalupe* meshed with

the--previously unimpressed--natives indigenous beliefs and allowed

them to embrace her and make her their own patron saint. This

singular incident is credited with converting the nation and thus

completing the conquest.

B.

[Guest guest]

José-,

>

>As for ordaining women, I really don't see any problem.

>

Nor do I.

>In fact, I

>would long/work for it if I were a member of the Catholic Church,

>even as a male. The only caution is that it would be better for a

>woman to be ordained after her children, if she had any, were big

>enough not to be dependent on her any more. Well, this is the way our

>society functions, you know: children and mothers form an inseparable

>set. In order to dedicate herself to spiritual matters, I think a

>woman must be in a certain way child-free, but I can be wrong.

>

Well, Southerly Brother, there are already the RC nuns who are without

child or spouse (regardless of merit or not) who may make fine

priestesses. In the Anglican Church it is allowed. Years ago our

rector was Mother . It was unfamiliar at first, but I think it

adds a nice balance. She is married with children, btw.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

On 7/22/05, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the lesson. So the sages around the world go into deep

> meditation and they see the same images. I was ignorant about these

> particular likenesses. That was fun.

> B.

Ditto on the lesson! Better change your email addy.You're cool in my book!

Wanita