RE: Eating disorder

[Guest guest]

Judy,

My heart breaks for you and Dan. 90 lbs. is scary, isn't it? In

this case, misery does not love company.

I would be concerned too if we were traveling to a foreign country.

I can see asking his host/hostess to see the nutrition

label! Maybe the new experience will distract Dan from his eating

concerns.

has been drinking Ensure Plus as well as a protein powder

mixed in milk or juice for a while now. Have you considered Boost,

Balance or Power Bars for your trip? They might be easier to

transport than the liquid. This is what took backpacking

last summer.

Today was a tough day. I ordered pizza for lunch (his brother's

request) and I knew it would be a problem. ate 1 small piece

of a medium pizza and his protein drink. Of course, he was still

hungry, but was upset that I wouldn't insist he have another piece or

some other food. I just decided to step back and let him handle

it...decide for himself that he needed/wanted more. He was still

upset when I left to take Jeff for a music lesson. The good news is,

while I was gone, he decided (on his own...yea!)to have some trail mix

(not much, but some).

Haircut day was yesterday, but did not meet the criteria for

a mohawk. He was dissapointed. He asked if there was still time. I

told him that if reached 95 lbs. by Sat. I would pay for a second

haircut in 3 days! However, after today's events, that is unlikely.

Will you be attending the conference in Denver?

BTW, how tall is Dan?

Melinda S.

Dallas

> I took my 15 yo son to the doctor today at the advice of his

therapist because we will be visiting Japan for 11 days, leaving on

Monday. Because he cannot eat very many things, it will be a huge

problem for him there, especially during the two days he will be the

guest in a Japanese home. The therapist suggested a tranquilizer

during the trip, which is why we visited the prescribing

pediatrician. I was stressed when we arrived there, but I quickly

became more stressed to the point of tears after he was weighed and

measured. In the last 6 months he has gone from a puny 100 pounds to

90 pounds! His clothes are falling off him but he wouldn't let me

see how much he weighs on the scale, so I didn't know how bad it was.

>

> He received a prescription for Xanax and the advice to drink one

can of Boost before bedtime each night, plus bring several cases of

it to Japan.

>

> 's reasons to not eat are very different from Dan's, but the

end result is still scary.

>

> Judy

> Re: hi, i'm new to this group

>

>

> Hi, Amy. My son (15) was diagnosed with OCD about 18

months

> ago. He suffers from a type of OCD called scrupulocity...meaning

he

> is overly conciencious (picking up trash, straightening things,

> saying long prayers, refilling dog's water bowl when it still has

> plenty of water, etc.) He also suffers from an eating disorder.

He

> eats OK and doesn't purge, but exercises excessively. Therefore

the

> 2200-2300 calories he eats a day doesn't support his activity

level.

> He was always slender as a child, but during pre-puberty he

filled

> out and he hated it. Put that together with 1-2 unkind remarks

from

> peers and health teachers/coaches preaching " LOW FAT " diets and

> before you know it, an eating disorder was created(I could kill

his

> 8th grade health teacher who told the kids that ice cream

> is " cholesterol in a bowl! " ). He eats no sweets or traditional

> snacks. Typical teenage foods like pizza and french fries are off

> limits. is 5'2 " and has gone from 104 to 86. His

current

> weight is 91 and hopefully inching back up, but he has very

little

> body fat. This lack of fat has affected his energy level and

> growth...he has not grown any in over a year and his younger

brother

> (14 yo) is now taller and much bigger than he is. It is very

sad.

> He hates the way he looks now and realizes what he has done, but

the

> journey back to normal eating is an extremely difficult one. You

are

> very wise to recognize potential eating problems and I encourage

you

> to keep an eye on the situation. Ours happened so gradually...I

wish

> we had intervened before these habits became so engrained.

> started on a low dose of Paxil which helped his moods but

did

> not do much for OCD. We tried to increase dosage, but for him

the

> med was too sedating. We eased him off and after that he didn't

want

> to take any more meds...wanted to fight it on his own. His doc

wants

> to start him on Prozac and we are encouraging him to do so, but

so

> far no luck.

> Sorry this is so long...just know that you are not alone. This a

> great place for information, advice and support. I consider it a

God-

> send!

> Keep us posted on Jordan's progress.

> Melinda S.

> .

[Guest guest]

Wow, what a story. Mostly I just want to offer you my support; there is

so much knowledge in this group and they've helped me tremendously just

reading what they have to say. Best of luck to you!

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.knitting911.net

[Guest guest]

>By this time there were some foods that I was chronically unable to

>swallow. Starches were the hardest, unless they were accompanied by

>protein and/or sugar. For example, plain bread wouldn't break

>down in my mouth enough for me to swallow it.

>

>An important thing in all of this has been a quality of willfulness.

>That is, it's like there's a little child inside me that refuses to

>eat anything but sugary stuff. Or if I can eat normal food, he'll

>only eat a certain narrow range of things.

I have to say that this sounds a lot like what I went through with

" food aversions " . They got a lot worse when I got pregnant,

but with all the other issues that was the least of my worries,

and pregnant women are supposed to be weird, right? I'd had

SOME problems in that direction when I was younger though.

Anyway, when I was pregnant I was on a higher carb diet

(trying to " eat right " ). It got so more and more foods I just didn't

like. I'd make pancakes, they'd smell great, I'd get one bite in my

mouth, and not be able to eat it. Which is really hard to explain

to anyone!

I was kind of thinking I was just going nuts, but then I read about

Asperger's and realized that yeah, I sure had most of THOSE

symptoms, and food aversions are common in that group. Eventually

I went on an autistic diet (gluten free) which cleared up a lot

of the Asperger symptoms and eventually the food aversions

have mostly gone away. Although now I find I really don't

care for pancakes anyway, I prefer a good steak! But I CAN

eat them, if they are GF.

As for the " willful child " aspect ... I think that's exactly what it is,

basically it's part of your subconscious that deals with food.

For me, gluten is downright toxic, it does bad stuff for my

body. My " inner child " was basically saying " don't eat that stuff! " .

But gluten also messes up your internal organs big time, and

if you eat a lot of it (and react to it with an IgA reaction) then

your gut stops working correctly, causing constipation or

diarrhea, and incidentally not producing the correct enzymes

and HCL so you can't digest or absorb what you DO eat.

So you can end up with some weird food cravings ... it could

be that sugar is the one thing you can digest easily so you

crave it. People with this problem typically can't digest fats

well, and sometimes can't digest protein well either, so

food options are difficult.

I do the Warrior Diet too, mainly because I think it gives

the gut a " rest " from handling food, and my food digests

a whole lot better now. Also because it's hard to find GF

food away from home.

But what I'd recommend is to get tested for the IgA allergies ...

these are ones that happen in your gut, they typically

DON'T have direct symptoms and are hard find out about.

York labs has a saliva test for them, and enterlabs has

a stool test. If I were to place bets, I'd bet you have

an IgA allergy to wheat and/or casein (which I'd guess you

ate a lot at the center) ... but once you know what is

going on, it will be a lot easier to beat it.

If you can't do that, you can try doing a grain-free dairy-free

diet for a week or two, and see if that helps.

. He seems to

>sabotage my conscious efforts at getting well. It's like having to

>satisfy an extremely picky and unhappy child every time I eat

>something. And a lot of the things that have happened don't really

>make sense from a physical standpoint, like when I have some disaster

>and then never really recover from it.

Your brain, mind, and body are really, really connected. If

you drink a bottle of wine, your mind stops working right.

For folks who react to foods, esp. the IgA reactions, eating

that food is like taking opium or LSD ... they can end up with

outright schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety,

you name it. Which are " mental " disorders, but they are very

often brought on by chemical changes in the brain, triggered

by certain foods. This has been documented by MRI scans

of kids ... before and after eating the food. Which is great

news as far as finding a cure goes ... I've met a guy who

was schizophrenic, now he's totally normal, except when

he eats a piece of bread ... then he hallucinates ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hey Rick,

Katy here…glad to see you here!!

I don't know if you know about onibasu, but it's a great search

engine for some of the better :-)

www.onibasu.com.

Much better than using for searching. Here's an example of

something I found searching:

you might be interested in:

http://onibasu.com/archives/cl/6566.html

Also, there's a group called GFCFNN, that's a spin off from this

group. You seem to have a lot of gluten intolerance symptoms so

that group might be helpful, too, even if you don't know for sure if

you're gluten intolerant. It's not yet listed on onibasu, but

there's tons of info in the archives that's worth digging through.

GFCFNN/

Katy

[Guest guest]

Hello Rick,

Thanks for having the courage to share your story - wishing you

health.

I too suffered and developed eating difficulties after doing a veggie

diet in my early 20s when I thought it was required to be a good

little Buddhist. Eventually realized I couldn't function emotionally

or physically, but not before doing damage to teeth, emotions, lack

of confidence, sex drive, etc. But my cholesterol was low, haha, and

doctors saw no problem.

Anyway, the one thing I want to say here after trying the Warrior

Diet and lots of variations to find 'what works' that if you have

suffered by denying your body nutriets then breakfast can work

wonders. I just do better with a protein breakfast and this way I

don't eat so much at night and sleep better. I don't doubt the

warrior diet can work for some, but not all. If you have denied

yourself real food in the past, more denial may not be the solution.

Also if you are having trouble with small meals then trying to eat a

huge meal may not be too comfortable.

For breakfast these days I have protein like pastured nitrate free

pork sausage (buffalo when i can get it), or sardines or other canned

fish, eggs, or once in a while something more involved. And a small

serving of potatoes or whole grain bread. I agree that lots of carbs

make me sleepy, but with full size protein and 1/2 portion carbs

metabolsm is off and running and I have confidence all day. This

helps with all my decisions. Without the carbs the protein goes to

blood sugar and can feel the burn. Point of breakfast: easy to cook,

lots of protein, things I like to eat.

When doing warrior diet I wouldn't sleep as well with a big late

night meal, also felt cold during the day and was spacing out. I

don't think my system was digesting one big meal so well, and spacing

out the protein seems to help.

Best wishes,

--- In , " risrosen " <risrosen@y...>

wrote:

>

> Hi all. I joined this board a while ago at the suggestion of Katy

> from the Warrior Diet group, though I have not been active on it.

She

> suggested I post my story about my unusual eating disorder here and

> see if anyone has any advice. So here goes.

>

> It started in 1994 when I got involved with a cult. A few weeks

> later, due to certain circumstances requiring me to do some

volunteer

> work, I began spending all day at their local center, eating lunch

and

> dinner there. This meant the following: 1) I had suddenly switched

to

> eating a vegetarian (lacto, no ovo), high-carb, low-protein diet;

2) I

> was eating all the time with a large group of people I wasn't very

> comfortable with, which meant that I was eating under tension (which

> got to be very distressing); 3) I was eating most of my food during

> those two meals, with only a light breakfast, if any, and no

> snacks—contrary to my usual inclination; and 4) I was absorbing

a

> lot of rules about how and what to eat and following them

ompulsively.

>

> After a few weeks, I began to have difficulty chewing and swallowing

> my food normally. I began to get full on less and less food, so

that

> my hunger was not satisfied although I was full. Consequently, I

ate

> to the point of discomfort at every meal. I should add that the

food

> tasted very good to me; I liked it. However, a part of me also

missed

> the things I used to eat. Clearly (that is, clear to me now, but

not

> then), the food was not breaking down sufficiently in my mouth,

which

> made it hard to swallow.

>

> After two months I stopped going to the center, though I still

> practiced the teachings of the cult, and I resumed cooking for

myself,

> but the problems did not get any better. I began to get very

> obsessive about what to eat and what not to eat. After a while I

> tried to get very pure with my diet in an effort to increase my low

> energy. The effect on me was immediate: I began to get full on less

> and less food and to get cravings for cereal. Occasionally I tried

> (gingerly) eating other foods, like meat, to see if that would help,

> but it didn't. Finally even a single bite of the vegetarian stuff

> made me full. That left me free to give in to my cravings, since I

> literally couldn't eat anything else. I ate nothing but granola

> and soy milk for a week or two. After that I relaxed my obsessions

> with rules somewhat, but my symptoms did not return to the level I

was

> at prior to trying to get so dietetically pure. Eating was now a

> permanent struggle. My eating problem was by now an obsession.

>

> About six months later, while rooming with a friend who was very

much

> involved with the cult, I went through another period of eating only

> cereal. After that I went to live in a town that was a center for

the

> cult in the United States. After a while, eating my meals in a

> cafeteria, I began to develop a sensitivity about my eating

> environment, getting easily irritated and uncomfortable around

others

> while eating which made it difficult to eat. My eating difficulties

> got very bad again, and I also began to develop constipation

problems.

> Finally I gave in to my cravings and started eating nothing but

> sweets: cakes, cookies, candy, donuts, and so on. I did that for

two

> weeks. Afterwards an herbal treatment and getting my own place

where

> I could eat in private enabled me to return to the vegetarian diet,

> but I became locked into a pattern of eating a very narrow selection

> of foods; essentially I had the same meal all the time.

>

> When I lost my private eating space, my eating problems got very bad

> again, and my sugar cravings returned. Now, however, I began to

have

> real digestive problems. I began to have trouble digesting fats.

One

> morning I ate a mound of greasy hash browns, and I felt like they

> became stuck in my intestines or something; I couldn't eat for a

> couple of days, and I couldn't pass them. Finally I took an herbal

> laxative. But I never recovered from that, in the sense that from

> then on I could only eat small amounts of food at a time. This

> " digestive disaster " , as I called it, began to be a regular feature

of

> my eating experience. Finally it was back to sugar and cereal,

which

> I could at least eat a decent amount of, though quite a bit less

than

> before. I would have cakes, cookies and candy for the first part of

> my meal, and then cereal with sugar. Cereal with milk or soy milk

and

> sugar have formed the basis of my diet since then (1997). When I

was

> on an all-cereal diet, sometimes I would have trouble swallowing,

> sometimes not. Only an all-sweets diet would go smoothly all the

> time, but eating that way became increasingly problematic as time

went

> on, to say nothing of my fears about what was happening and would

> happen with my teeth (my dental bills were very large. Prior to

this

> whole business, I had had maybe three fillings in my teeth—all

upper

> jaw—at the age of 33 years old.)

>

> I began to develop problems with low blood sugar. A few hours after

> eating I would feel weak and irritable until I could eat again. So

I

> began the habit of eating every few hours. Also, constipation

became

> an ongoing and severe problem.

>

> About a year and a half later, I began to add very large amounts of

> sugar to my cereal. This enabled me to eat more, and gave me more

> calories which, having just gone through an extended period of

> particularly great difficulty eating food in any substantial

quantity,

> I was desperate for. However, it was very debilitating, especially

> when I had trouble swallowing it, which was very frequently. I

became

> trapped in this way of eating. My eating environment sensitivities

> began to worsen until I developed a full-blown obsessive-compulsive

> disorder with regard to eating environment.

>

> It took a long time for me to decrease the sugar to reasonable

> amounts, and finally I was able to stop all added sugar and eat

> low-sugar cereals for while. Eventually I did go back to adding

some

> sugar.

>

> By this time there were some foods that I was chronically unable to

> swallow. Starches were the hardest, unless they were accompanied by

> protein and/or sugar. For example, plain bread wouldn't break

> down in my mouth enough for me to swallow it.

>

> At one point during these years someone turned me on to juicing, and

> so I added some sweet juices (carrot/fruit) to my food repertoire.

> Juice, soy milk and fruit have enabled me to get by when I haven't

> been able to eat because of digestion or environment.

>

> I struggled constantly to find some way of eating, some diet, some

> treatment that would help, but nothing ever really did. Eventually

I

> became able to eat some more regular food (some meat, for example),

> but it was tenuous.

>

> In 2004 I came upon the Warrior diet, which espouses eating mainly

one

> meal a day. You eat very lightly during the day, mostly juices and

> fruit (the " undereating phase " ), and then have a large meal at night

> (the " overeating phase " ). This worked for me to a large extent,

and I

> was able to go back to eating regular food. Also the OCD problem

was

> much less acute when eating this way. I also discovered the

> " Nourishing Traditions " book by Sally Fallon and began to implement

> some of her ideas. I did have some swallowing difficulties, though,

> and it would take a very long time to eat, and a great deal of

> chewing. Immediately after eating I would fall asleep. This went

on

> for a few months I think, until I had a disaster with a supplement.

> Then I was able to eat much less, and with less variety, and I had

to

> add a couple of sugary food feedings late at night. That was in

> August of 2004.

>

> An important thing in all of this has been a quality of

willfulness.

> That is, it's like there's a little child inside me that refuses to

> eat anything but sugary stuff. Or if I can eat normal food, he'll

> only eat a certain narrow range of things. During that first time

> that I ate nothing but sweets, the child knew exactly what kind of

> sweet he wanted at any particular time, and he wouldn't eat anything

> else. If I ate something other than that particular thing, it

> wouldn't break down well in my mouth, or it would just kind of sit

in

> my stomach, and I could hear the kid screaming inside me. He seems

to

> sabotage my conscious efforts at getting well. It's like having to

> satisfy an extremely picky and unhappy child every time I eat

> something. And a lot of the things that have happened don't really

> make sense from a physical standpoint, like when I have some

disaster

> and then never really recover from it.

>

> Katy from the Warrior Diet group thinks this can be completely

> resolved nutritionally. Sometimes I think so, but more often,

because

> of that quality of willfullness, I doubt it. During the time last

> summer when I was on the Warrior Diet, I really didn't experience

any

> improvement beyond the first days. Last night, having reached a

point

> of desperation, I went back and read some of the Warrior Diet posts,

> and some of what Katy said sank in more than before. I've decided

to

> start over and try again. If anyone has any advice that they can

> offer, I'd be grateful. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

> An important thing in all of this has been a quality of willfulness.

> That is, it's like there's a little child inside me that

> refuses to eat anything but sugary stuff.

To me it sounds as if you have Candida fungus overgrowth, among other

things. If I were you I would completely stop eating sugars and starches.

Gradually increase your consumption of fermented foods. I think that " little

child inside of you " is not your friend -- I think it's Candida fungus

crying out to be fed. If you decide to stop sugars/starches for awhile (at

least 6 months,) you'll inevitably go through an absolutely miserable period

of detox (Herxhiemer Effect) for a couple of weeks at least. During that

time you'll feel like you have the flu and can't think straight and you'll

crave sugar like you never thought possible.

I know about this problem because I had a very similar experience that

started a year ago; It started innocently enough as I was simply trying to

put weight back on after weeks of illness and antibiotics. Boy did I ever

LOVE my Tollhouse chocolate chip cookies, granola and soy milk. I WANTED ALL

THE WRONG STUFF! and I see now how that was a sign...

It took me about 6 months of a strict Candida control diet to get back to

normal (better than normal now!) and it can for you too. But getting there

is miserable at first so you'd better know that from the start -- cold

turkey!

Just my 2 pennies....

~Robin

There are a couple of good message boards on . Read their files first.

One is: candida treatment/

[Guest guest]

Hi Robin,

> To me it sounds as if you have Candida fungus overgrowth, among other

> things. If I were you I would completely stop eating sugars

> and starches.

> Gradually increase your consumption of fermented foods. I

> think that " little

> child inside of you " is not your friend -- I think it's Candida fungus

> crying out to be fed.

I have _so_ not talked about this during my ongoing debate with about

detoxing, fasting and the causes of my carb binges but I suspect that you

are actually pretty correct in your assessment. I'm not sure that it's just

Candida, but I can vouch for the fact all 4 times that I have lost control

in the past year and a half my experience of it has been as if " an other "

took over and directed me to eat flour/sugar. It is/was very bizarre.

I quit smoking well over three years ago and went through horrific

withdrawal but never experienced the pull to return to the addiction in the

same way that I have experienced the pull to carbs post detox. It is of a

different nature or quality and is very much like Rick's little child.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>I quit smoking well over three years ago and went through horrific

>withdrawal but never experienced the pull to return to the addiction in the

>same way that I have experienced the pull to carbs post detox. It is of a

>different nature or quality and is very much like Rick's little child

I know the feeling, having had major, major carb addiction problems myself

(though never having smoked, due to asthma, and so not having that

experience as a basis for comparison) but if the post-detox carb binging is

in fact caused by a candida infection or the recurrence of same, isn't that

just one more argument against fasting, or at least against juice fasting?

-

[Guest guest]

I don't know WHAT physiological thing is going on here, gluten, yeast, or

something else, but I certainly believe something is. HOWEVER... I also

think that a good therapist would help you a lot, especially if they don't

think that psychology/emotions are the whole story of eating disorders.

As someone who struggled with bulimia most of her young life, I sincerely

have found that changing the way I ate had miraculous benefits for me

(Atkins). It freed me from a lifetime of eating disorders and obesity. I am

46 now and have just lost 120 pounds after 23 months. BUT... I also went

through therapy for several years with a really terrific therapist, and

while a good therapist is hard to find, I do recommend it. The problem you

are describing is quite severe and professional help is not just

appropriate, I truly think it might be essential.

Christie

[Guest guest]

> but if the post-detox carb binging is in fact caused by a

> candida infection or the recurrence of same, isn't that just

> one more argument against fasting, or at least against juice fasting?

> -

At least against juice fasting, yes.

~Robin

[Guest guest]

> > but if the post-detox carb binging is in fact caused by a candida

> > infection or the recurrence of same, isn't that just one

> more argument

> > against fasting, or at least against juice fasting?

> > -

>

> At least against juice fasting, yes.

> ~Robin

I should add here that juice fasting is what actually put me over-the-edge

so to speak. I was struggling with all sorts of bacterial infections, was on

antibiotics, and then on top of everything else I suddenly developed

shingles all over my emaciated body, I went on a type of parenteral medical

food fast for three weeks to simultaneously starve the bacteria in my small

intestine while hitting it with Cipro. (Obviously I didn't know then what I

know now.) After about 2 weeks on the antibiotics and Vivonex (amino acids

and phony sugars,) I could tell that my violent bacterial problems had

disappeared but they had been replaced by an Overwhelming sense of utter

despair; I mean, I've been waaay down before but this was border-line

suicidal. I felt I was turning into a hummingbird with all the sugar in my

system but I only craved it more. It was Very Weird.

A Google search led me understand about the role of fungus in my

just-learned good bacteria/bad bacteria equation. There's a LOT of stupid

stuff about Candida all over the Internet and it is blamed for everything

but enough of the basics made sense and seemed to fit my profile. I was also

desperate. That's when I started eliminating anything that resembled a sugar

or a starch. I didn't even eat a piece of fruit for the first couple weeks.

I went through all sorts of horrible supposedly " detox " symptoms and then

suddenly, after a couple weeks of hell, things brightened up and my craving

for sugar/starch died down pretty much for good (because I've learned to

keep sugar/starch at a minimum.) Eight months anyway..

After a few months of the strict Candida diet I switched over to the

Gottschall SCD diet because I was having problems even with the quinoa,

millet and buckwheat that were " allowed " on the Candida thing. I still had

bacteria " issues " evidently. Basically I combined the two diets and do a

loose version of them to this day.

The past couple months I also stumbled onto Sally Fallon's book and then to,

TA DA!, you guys here at NN. (Thanks.)

Now it's effortless to stay at my perfect weight, I have good energy and I

don't even think of food between meals (for up to 5 hours if need be.) I

feel so balanced now. It's been a year of learning first hand for me..

Anyway, I'm definitely no expert but the " eating disorder " problems sounded

a little bit like what I was experiencing...

~Robin

Ps. Now if I could only get my stomach acid back!

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> but if the post-detox

> carb binging is

> in fact caused by a candida infection or the recurrence of

> same, isn't that

> just one more argument against fasting, or at least against

> juice fasting?

I'm not sure where you are going here, but I would say no.

I very carefully drank only juice that was low sugar content specifically to

prevent Candida or parasite growth. As to the binging itself I'm inclined

to think that the solution is to do the detoxes and then not allow myself to

binge. That I have failed so far is more a reflection on me than it is on

the process. That the drive to re-feed the baddies is so strong is an

indicator to me that they are distressed or dying by the action of the

detox/fasts, right? What if I can judiciously use detoxes to kill them off

over a period of a year or two while eating correctly for my body? Wouldn't

that be the course of action most likely to create the fastest healing? I

think so.

I'm still looking at your comments on the metabolic effects of fasting and

have some new info. I'll post when I have more time.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>I'm not sure where you are going here, but I would say no.

>

>I very carefully drank only juice that was low sugar content specifically to

>prevent Candida or parasite growth. As to the binging itself I'm inclined

>to think that the solution is to do the detoxes and then not allow myself to

>binge. That I have failed so far is more a reflection on me than it is on

>the process. That the drive to re-feed the baddies is so strong is an

>indicator to me that they are distressed or dying by the action of the

>detox/fasts, right? What if I can judiciously use detoxes to kill them off

>over a period of a year or two while eating correctly for my body? Wouldn't

>that be the course of action most likely to create the fastest healing? I

>think so.

Will it surprise you to hear that I strongly disagree? <g>

I personally object strongly to the " blame the victim " school of dietary

theory. Sure, willpower and desire are _components_ of health and healthy

eating -- after all, many of us probably know people who know that they're

eating poorly and aren't healthy but don't want to change. But it's a

crude and inaccurate stereotype that binging is volitional. The urge to

binge and to gobble carbs, particularly refined carbs, is fostered and

caused by poor diet, and many people fail to escape their urges because

they mistakenly avoid good fats and eat too many carbs. So no, I don't

think you had some standing level of candida which then was reduced by the

juice fast and fought back by fostering a binge urge in you. Quite the

contrary. I think you had some standing level of candida and then it

bloomed on your juice fast, and your need to binge was a result of that

much-larger candida population crying for food.

-

[Guest guest]

> I think you had some standing level of candida and then it

> bloomed on your juice fast, and your need to binge was a

> result of that

> much-larger candida population crying for food.

>

Hmm. Okay. I can buy that as a possibility. I'm not capitulating, just

agreeing that you may be correct. I'll repeat that the contents of the food

I was eating on the fast are universally reported to be anti-Candida, so for

you to be correct that would have to be wrong.

I've really been looking at this whole fast detox thing as a result of our

discussion and am beginning to get some structure to my thoughts. I'm a

little slow but I'm usually pretty thorough. As I said in the last post --

I'll respond to your earlier comments in detail when I get a chance.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>Hmm. Okay. I can buy that as a possibility. I'm not capitulating, just

>agreeing that you may be correct. I'll repeat that the contents of the food

>I was eating on the fast are universally reported to be anti-Candida, so for

>you to be correct that would have to be wrong.

I'm curious, then. What specifically did you eat during your fast? Juice

is, after all, juice -- it's sugar and stuff which rapidly breaks down to

sugar.

-

[Guest guest]

> I'm curious, then. What specifically did you eat during your

> fast? Juice

> is, after all, juice -- it's sugar and stuff which rapidly

> breaks down to

> sugar.

>

On the last two fasts I consumed primarily celery juice with lots of other

veggies mixed in. Cabbage, a little bit of carrot, spinach, broccoli, kale,

jalapeños. I was drinking about a gallon to a gallon and a half per day.

On the last fast specifically I was also consuming 7 tablespoons of VCO per

day too. Then there was the wonderful green food (BLEAH) and

psyllium/bentonite mix.

Ever since I started juicing a very long time ago I had been trying to get a

nutritional breakdown of the carbohydrate in fibrous veggies and despite

hours of searching I was never successful. Lo and behold I checked the SR16

database and they actually give it for celery and a few other veggies. 100

grams of raw celery has .11 grams sucrose, .55 grams glucose/dextrose, .51

grams fructose and .66 grams galactose. So, you are correct that it is just

sugar water. Yet it is pretty much universally reported that vegetable

juices from fibrous veggies are anti-Candida/parasite. I'm beginning to

wonder if we aren't back to the sugar concentration question. Or perhaps

it's a sugar/nutrient ratio question. Much higher in celery than carrots or

apples. Or maybe there are specific anti-Candida nutrients and insufficient

sugars to override them in the fibrous veggies.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron, I'm interested in this. Could you tell more about your

experience on these fasts? How long did you fast for, and how did you

feel? What happened after you stopped the fast?

This is an idea that comes to mind now and again, doing a juice diet

with low-sugar juices. I think it's risky for me, and I would only do

it if everything else fails. But I would like to hear about your

experience. Thanks.

Rick

>

> > I'm curious, then. What specifically did you eat during your

> > fast? Juice

> > is, after all, juice -- it's sugar and stuff which rapidly

> > breaks down to

> > sugar.

> >

>

> On the last two fasts I consumed primarily celery juice with lots of

other

> veggies mixed in. Cabbage, a little bit of carrot, spinach,

broccoli, kale,

> jalapeños. I was drinking about a gallon to a gallon and a half per

day.

> On the last fast specifically I was also consuming 7 tablespoons of

VCO per

> day too. Then there was the wonderful green food (BLEAH) and

> psyllium/bentonite mix.

>

> Ever since I started juicing a very long time ago I had been trying

to get a

> nutritional breakdown of the carbohydrate in fibrous veggies and despite

> hours of searching I was never successful. Lo and behold I checked

the SR16

> database and they actually give it for celery and a few other

veggies. 100

> grams of raw celery has .11 grams sucrose, .55 grams

glucose/dextrose, .51

> grams fructose and .66 grams galactose. So, you are correct that it

is just

> sugar water. Yet it is pretty much universally reported that vegetable

> juices from fibrous veggies are anti-Candida/parasite. I'm beginning to

> wonder if we aren't back to the sugar concentration question. Or

perhaps

> it's a sugar/nutrient ratio question. Much higher in celery than

carrots or

> apples. Or maybe there are specific anti-Candida nutrients and

insufficient

> sugars to override them in the fibrous veggies.

>

> Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi Rick,

> Ron, I'm interested in this. Could you tell more about your

> experience on these fasts? How long did you fast for, and how did you

> feel? What happened after you stopped the fast?

>

> This is an idea that comes to mind now and again, doing a juice diet

> with low-sugar juices. I think it's risky for me, and I would only do

> it if everything else fails. But I would like to hear about your

> experience. Thanks.

I've read all of your posts pretty closely and understand where you are at.

You've had a hard road. I'm going to suggest to you that given your

weakened state you probably do not want to do any kind of fasting or

detoxing without the direct supervision of someone who is an expert in the

field. And I'm not talking about your run-of-the-mill chiropractor or ND.

Given all of your current difficulties you would want to be working with

someone who had supervised many, many fasts and understood them very well.

I think you are on the correct path right now -- adjusting your diet and

getting some therapy.

I ate very cleanly for two years before I did my first detox fast. I didn't

realize it at the time but my body started detoxing on its own immediately

upon being given good food and eliminating the bad. I would go through

these awful periods that lasted about a week in which my mood would go down

increasingly every day and I would get constipated. All of the sudden the

constipation would break with extremely foul smelling debris and I would

then be okay again. Because I had no experience with this I didn't realize

that it was most likely my body dumping toxins and that it was doing on its

own with no additional assistance from me. I expect that you will be

experiencing the same as your body adjusts to its new diet.

This is probably not the answer you want to hear since, if you are like me,

you want it all fixed NOW. It may be possible that detoxing and fasting

would help you but I can't stress it strongly enough that you should only do

it under the guidance of someone who can properly monitor what is happening

and ensure that you don't do permanent damage.

Now to answer your question briefly. I've done four fasts, all of them

modified juice/supplement fasts. The first two were done 9 months apart,

lasted 10 days and were based on the protocol and supplements from the

Standard Process company. On those two fasts I experienced a great deal of

hunger and a lot of extreme mental confusion and brain fog interspersed with

periods of great clarity and good feeling. After the fasts my mental and

physical state returned to what seemed to be normal. I did not notice much

change.

The second two fasts were colon cleansing juice fasts and used a protocol

similar to that found in Bernard Jensen's book, _Tissue Cleansing Through

Bowel Management_. Each fast lasted 7 days and involved consuming only

vegetable juice, coconut oil, bentonite clay, psyllium, and green food

supplement. On these fasts I was not hungry after the first two days but I

again experienced huge mental swings from extreme clarity to massive fog.

Mostly there was fog, though.

The good news is that over the period of all 4 fasts there has been a

definite if limited improvement in my general health and disposition. It

was so subtle that I didn't notice it until I was able to look back on it.

I can't truthfully state that the improvement was caused by the fasts since

I have been doing other things along with them that may have contributed.

The bad news is that all four fasts put me into a massive several week food

binge afterwards. That has been cause for much discussion here right before

you joined the list. You can find the previous posts in the archives over

the past 4 weeks or so IIRC.

Finally -- I have done 4 liver cleanses. Of all of the techniques that I

have used to help myself since cleaning up my life and diet three years ago

I suspect that these may have been the most useful of all. If you can find

someone to guide you through them you may get some benefit from these. I

used (and recommend) the protocol in s Moritz's book _The Amazing

Liver Cleanse_. Again -- I have some concern in making these

recommendations because of the degree you have abused yourself for the past

years and think that you would be much better off doing any of these

techniques under experienced guidance rather than winging it and trying them

on your own with out a couple of years of good nutrition under your belt.

Ron

[Guest guest]

,

I sure understand how you must be feeling as my daughter was

hospitalized for 8-months. It is so hard to bring them in. Also, with

the security guards you must have been feeling so helpless.

You have to take care of yourself and go see a therapist. I had a

hard time handling the hospitalization because we did not know

previously she had OCD. After a while however I was glad she was in

the hospital.

I am seeing a psychiatrist(GAD and was aneroxic at 13) and have been

taking Effexor XR since she was hospitalized. I don't know how I

could have gone through it. It is still hard.

This is the best place for her and continue bringing her afterward if

you can.

You must feel a lot of anger because this is what I felt at first. I

sometime wishes a robber would attach me so I could fight back.

Make sure you see somebody so you can help yourself and your daughter.

Please express your feeling on this board because that will help you

and we truly understand.

If you could find a support group in your area for mental illness

that would help you. You might not be able to go right away but

latter on it will help with the isolation that mental illness

brings. The people there can understand and you will not feel alone.