RE: Re: POLITICS: My dream national health care? (Was: Symptoms of severe dehydration)

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the idea that " business " should provide health

insurance is

just silly. The government

can help a LOT just by providing a bigger " pool " . Heidi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have good medical insurance coverage and it worked great while I was in

the hospital emergency and intensive care units last year. As I've

mentioned, a " surprise " ulcer had eaten a hole through my stomach and

blocked my gastric canal. My hospital emergency room saved me from dying

that particular day.

Once I was released however, it didn't take long to figure out that my

insurance-supported allopathic M.D.'s had very little to offer in the way of

support for my many resulting disorders. In fact they caused more harm than

good; They only knew to prescribe one medicine after another and I just got

sicker and so I stopped using them.

Except for my own research and subsequent dietary changes, the health care

that worked for me was not covered by insurance and has been EXCEEDINGLY

expensive. These therapies helped me to not only recover from my accident

but to learn about how to stay well in the future. On top of these

alternative medicine costs I am still paying the premiums for an HMO I don't

use anymore. I have to have this for work..

My experience makes me think that the best insurance might be a National

Health Insurance that covers, for adults, catastrophic or trauma events

only. Children under age twelve or eighteen would have the same trauma type

coverage but would also have routine maintenance insurance, more like the

insurance we're all used to. Trauma would be things like accidents, heart

attacks, drug overdose, sudden illness etc. Some reasonable amount of

follow-up care would be provided.

The way I see it, when it comes to health maintenance, a free market system

would be far better suited to the fast and faster changing world of on-going

regular health care: People would have an incentive to at least TRY to

develop habits that would keep them healthy rather than trying to get the

most expensive pills and doctor care for the least amount of premiums;

Alternative medicine would be able to compete fairly with allopathic

medicine; Western medical practioners, in order to compete, might try to be

more up to date on new information in their field. They'd also have a lot

less paperwork!

I suppose a drawback is that more people probably wouldn't go to any doctors

at all and would use emergency wards as their " office visits " ? But that

happens now (especially here in California!) and is already a huge cost to

the system...

Anyway, I was just toying with these ideas and wondering how we could make a

healthy country. During the basketball games yesterday they were running as

many as three ads in a row for prescription drugs. These are paid for by

people's insurance and it's hard to see how any amount of dietary education

or health practioner could compete with that...

~Robin

[Guest guest]

>I suppose a drawback is that more people probably wouldn't go to any doctors

>at all and would use emergency wards as their " office visits " ? But that

>happens now (especially here in California!) and is already a huge cost to

>the system...

>

>Anyway, I was just toying with these ideas and wondering how we could make a

>healthy country. During the basketball games yesterday they were running as

>many as three ads in a row for prescription drugs. These are paid for by

>people's insurance and it's hard to see how any amount of dietary education

>or health practioner could compete with that...

>

>~Robin

I tend to LIKE the free market for some things, but you have to be

sure the motivation is in the right place. Right now everyone gets

rewarded for prescribing drugs and seeing sick folks. Now I had

one insurance carrier once that would reward ME for pointing out

fraud etc. .. if I found a way to save money, I could get a piece

of the money saved.

All the policies I've had would pay for anyone I chose to go to,

for most things. None would pay for, of all things, having a baby.

Too risky, it seems.

But the German system, paid for by the state, motivated the

state to actually *research* herbal remedies, which is amazing.

So in one sense, the insurance companies might actually

provide some motivation to do cheaper, more alternative

treatments. And somehow you have to motivate people

to go to the doctor when they *should*. A lot of the

high costs also come from folks who NEVER go, then go

after they are really sick.

I could see a series of walk-in clinics, like they have

now in some grocery stores, where you could walk in

and ask silly questions for $20 or less. The folks who

clog emergency rooms do so because they can get in

FREE in many hospitals and they don't know what else to

do.

Of course the Internet is doing a rather fine job of

becoming a clinic of sorts too.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>> I could see a series of walk-in clinics, like they have

now in some grocery stores, where you could walk in

and ask silly questions for $20 or less. - Heidi >>>>>>>>>>

Great idea! I LOVE the idea of putting something like that where people go

daily. What's to stop someone from setting up small " For-Profit " health

clinics in grocery stores or shopping centers? They would have to be quite

limited in scope for liability insurance. There could be a lot of free

information on nutrition, illness prevention and medical alternatives.

Specific personal questions could be addressed for a fee. A person could get

their blood pressure read and maybe some simple tests done. Referrals could

then be made. All you'd need is a small amount of equipment, a student of

health and medicine and an Internet connection to the NN message board :-)

Maybe this is the job has been looking for?

~Robin

[Guest guest]

> >I could see a series of walk-in clinics, like they have

> >now in some grocery stores, where you could walk in

> >and ask silly questions for $20 or less. - Heidi Jean

>

> Great idea! I LOVE the idea of putting something like that where people go

> daily. What's to stop someone from setting up small " For-Profit " health

> clinics in grocery stores or shopping centers? They would have to be quite

> limited in scope for liability insurance. (Robin Reese)

Being a pharmacy student, I am seeing the revival of clinical pharmacy

in the community Ever. Freaking. Day. There's big currents in the

profession towards pharmacists becoming primary care providers of a

sort, somewhat as you describe--in part because we are in grocery

stores already and have way more accessibility than other health-care

providers.

The problem for pharmacists is that traditionally they're paid for the

drug, not for the counselling they do--this would be counselling, and

in order for it to work, we have to finangle a way to reliably get

paid for it. (That means getting Medicare/Medicaid to pay it, because

then everyone else will follow.)

According to a guest speaker in a class of mine last term,

anticoagulation clinic patients have far fewer ER visits than might

otherwise be expected from a group prone to bleeds, because they see

healthcare practioners (in this case, clinical pharmacists) regularly

and are able to ask all their " silly questions " .

A lot of community pharmacists (here in WA; the possible scope of

practice is defined by each state) do BP and other simple tests

(glucose, cholesterol, osteoporosis).

On the other foot, we're pharmacists and the reason we're in the store

in the first place is to help people get adequate _pharmaceutical_

care, so this isn't The Answer. I cannot, for example, imagine a

dietician hanging out in the grocery aisles Just In Case There Are

Questions. Well, I can, but...

Persi M. Mon

superfruit@...

---------------------------------

" A 5-year-old could understand this! Fetch me a 5-year-old! "

[Guest guest]

>Great idea! I LOVE the idea of putting something like that where people go

>daily. What's to stop someone from setting up small " For-Profit " health

>clinics in grocery stores or shopping centers?

They already are, I guess. They had an article on them on a news show,

tho I didn't catch the whole article.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> I could see a series of walk-in clinics, like they have

> now in some grocery stores, where you could walk in

> and ask silly questions for $20 or less. The folks who

> clog emergency rooms do so because they can get in

> FREE in many hospitals and they don't know what else to

> do.

>

> Of course the Internet is doing a rather fine job of

>becoming a clinic of sorts too.

>

> Heidi Jean

NPR interviewed a man this week who is starting clinics in stores, Target

was mentioned. Forget his background work but he mentioned seeing these

clinics as the means to be similar to the entrepeneurship of the man who

owns Virgin Mobile and others. Prevention to the need and crisis at health

care facilities better done by downsizing groceries to what's along the

walls or education to shopping the walls, the unprocessed foods. Easier to

create a new need, income, job from a resultant error than to fix what's

broke.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>NPR interviewed a man this week who is starting clinics in stores, Target

>was mentioned. Forget his background work but he mentioned seeing these

>clinics as the means to be similar to the entrepeneurship of the man who

>owns Virgin Mobile and others. Prevention to the need and crisis at health

>care facilities better done by downsizing groceries to what's along the

>walls or education to shopping the walls, the unprocessed foods. Easier to

>create a new need, income, job from a resultant error than to fix what's

>broke.

>

>Wanita

I heard that ... it's Case, I think, the one who started AOL. His

motivations seem to be good: he was concerned about his own kids,

about health care access in general. The idea seems to be similar to

what I've said for awhile ... low key kinds of places you can walk in

and say " my knee hurts! " and they'll give you an answer. I see it

as a great opportunity though, because he's talking using alternative

medicine too, and I'll bet those places morph into places where, say,

you can get a cheek swab test for some genes or a saliva test

for food sensitivities, since that is where health care IS moving.

But the " big clinic " kind of health care can't move very fast,

it's a behemoth, so the movement is happening at the ground

level, with the " online clinics " and the ND's.

And yeah, I think the answer IS in prevention, but you need

some way to get easy counselling or info. Telling people to

" eat better " has never worked, and it's a frustration the

docs who DO propose a healthier lifestyle have been facing.

A LOT of doctors do tell folks to eat less processed food,

etc., and almost no one follows the advice. You need to have

" groups " or something for support. I know this group has been

MY support. But I don't know what to tell other people who

aren't so quick with the keyboard. It would be great if there

were a " weight watchers " kind of organization that provided

the social support for people who just want to eat WELL.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

It would be great if there

> were a " weight watchers " kind of organization that provided

> the social support for people who just want to eat WELL.

>

>

>

> Heidi Jean

Brilliant idea, Heidi!!! I'd even go to sthing like this since I seem

to fall off the NT wagon a bit too often for my taste (restaurants,

restaurants....sigh).

[Guest guest]

Heidi

> I heard that ... it's Case, I think, the one who started AOL.

That's who it was. I may have missed part or not got the entire interview.

He's kind of got a string of " you're fireds " behind him. What happens when

the stockholder is king. Better off being his own boss with this and taking

and making all his own lumps. You can appreciate that being self employed

like me.

>I see it

> as a great opportunity though, because he's talking using alternative

> medicine too, and I'll bet those places morph into places where, say,

> you can get a cheek swab test for some genes or a saliva test

> for food sensitivities, since that is where health care IS moving.

Alternative medicine may upset the apple cart so roadblocks might be in his

way. It is the more cost and people effective. Workman's comp and auto,

maybe homeowner's insurance companies for years have been paying

chiropractors, homeopaths, ND's and acupuncturists knowing it gets people

back to work or better quicker. Saves some of the costs of hiring the snoops

that watch to see if you bring your rubbish out and question neighbors about

how well such and such next door gets around since their accident. Any shift

of heath care focus away from take this pill is an improvement. Insurance

paying for allergy testing is very limited. With truthful PR, people with or

without insurance might decide to explore beyond what so far for them still

makes them sick and tired of being sick and tired.

> But the " big clinic " kind of health care can't move very fast,

> it's a behemoth, so the movement is happening at the ground

> level, with the " online clinics " and the ND's.

Paperwork, bureauracy, employees and operation costs what's happening there.

>

> And yeah, I think the answer IS in prevention, but you need

> some way to get easy counselling or info. Telling people to

> " eat better " has never worked, and it's a frustration the

> docs who DO propose a healthier lifestyle have been facing.

> A LOT of doctors do tell folks to eat less processed food,

> etc., and almost no one follows the advice.

Noticed Web MD has had a series of tv commercials for self help, referrals

lately. Old and new food pyramid, one size fits all diet fad books and

miracle weight loss pills don't work either. Lot of it is the people without

insurance may have the time but not the money for quality. On the other hand

those with insurance, need the job for it, have more money but way less

time. Some European countries are going to 35 hr. work weeks where the 5

hrs. could be used for more cooking from scratch.

>You need to have

> " groups " or something for support. I know this group has been

> MY support. But I don't know what to tell other people who

> aren't so quick with the keyboard. It would be great if there

> were a " weight watchers " kind of organization that provided

> the social support for people who just want to eat WELL.

Our local hospital has reactive support groups for various maladies.

Proactive what historically works. Like minds have always been think tanks.

Is not a new term. Proactive think tanks of human communication, community

and cooperation kept societies from collapsing. Reactive think tanks are

needed only when competition rather than cooperation is a meme.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Wanita:

>That's who it was. I may have missed part or not got the entire interview.

>He's kind of got a string of " you're fireds " behind him. What happens when

>the stockholder is king. Better off being his own boss with this and taking

>and making all his own lumps. You can appreciate that being self employed

>like me.

Yeah, me too! Self-employed you get a lot more freedom. The way

corporations work can be self-defeating ... which is actually part

of his reason for his new " holding company " ... to influence how

" his " corporations work, so they work more for long-term good than

for short-term profit.

> Alternative medicine may upset the apple cart so roadblocks might be in his

>way. It is the more cost and people effective. Workman's comp and auto,

>maybe homeowner's insurance companies for years have been paying

>chiropractors, homeopaths, ND's and acupuncturists knowing it gets people

>back to work or better quicker. Saves some of the costs of hiring the snoops

>that watch to see if you bring your rubbish out and question neighbors about

>how well such and such next door gets around since their accident. Any shift

>of heath care focus away from take this pill is an improvement. Insurance

>paying for allergy testing is very limited. With truthful PR, people with or

>without insurance might decide to explore beyond what so far for them still

>makes them sick and tired of being sick and tired.

I think this, plus your other remarks about unisured folks with more

time on their hands, is key. I mean, folks started doing alternative

medicine when they talked to people and it *worked*, even though

there was no media or insurace support for it. If Case actually

sets up health clinics that *work*, and people talk about it working,

the clinics will thrive. (whether he succeeds or not I'm not predicting,

but it *could* work well).

>Noticed Web MD has had a series of tv commercials for self help, referrals

>lately. Old and new food pyramid, one size fits all diet fad books and

>miracle weight loss pills don't work either. Lot of it is the people without

>insurance may have the time but not the money for quality. On the other hand

>those with insurance, need the job for it, have more money but way less

>time. Some European countries are going to 35 hr. work weeks where the 5

>hrs. could be used for more cooking from scratch.

The European model seems to work well for a lot of things ...

there is more emphasis on " what is good for society? " rather

than " what is good for my lobbyists? " . Also since they pay for

the health care, it's in their best interests to keep people healthy.

>I think the insurance companies might glom onto this eventually

>too ... but the problem is that insurance companies actually make

>most of their money from investing in the stock market, there

>is no real feedback from the health of individuals. In this country

>we spend MORE for health care than any other country, and

>get less.

>

>

>Our local hospital has reactive support groups for various maladies.

>Proactive what historically works. Like minds have always been think tanks.

>Is not a new term. Proactive think tanks of human communication, community

>and cooperation kept societies from collapsing. Reactive think tanks are

>needed only when competition rather than cooperation is a meme.

Right ... the " competition " thing is SOOO extreme in this country. The

Football Mentality ... everyone has a team and they want their team

to " win " . I mean, competition does work well in some spheres, but

why does it have to pervade every bit of life? Why not have a

paradigm of " whatever works " ? I've got too much of the engineering

blood in me .

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Right ... the " competition " thing is SOOO extreme in this country. The

>Football Mentality ... everyone has a team and they want their team

>to " win " . I mean, competition does work well in some spheres, but

>why does it have to pervade every bit of life? Why not have a

>paradigm of " whatever works " ? I've got too much of the engineering

>blood in me .

>

>Heidi Jean

>

Yes, it is sad, Heidi. Kids have this " achieve at all costs " and " stand

on shoulders of peers " mentality so prevalent, it is no wonder they

don't just play and explore anymore. It's all a competition.

I challenge all of you TV watchers to switch off for the rest of the

week. Learn how things work. Being spoon fed " how to live " and " what

to believe " is NOT the answer. See the world beyond it.

Off the soap box and definitely a long 1/2 a life off the soap operas,

Deanna