Prokaryotes absorb Genetic Material, is there a relation to Epigenetics?

[Guest guest]

Hello All,

I am really enjoying my Wild Fermentation book. However, I do have a

few questions.

On page 11 Katz states " The study of symbiogenesis views evolutionary

innovation as a consequence of symbiosis, tracing the source of all

life to prokaryotes, which are cells distinguished by the absense of

nuclear membrances. Bacteria are prokaryotes. Their genetic material

is free-floating in the cell. " Genes from the fluid medium, from

other bacteria, from viruses, or from elsewhere enter bacterial cells

on their own, " write biologists Lynn Margulis and Karlene V. Schwartz.

By incorporating DNA from their environment into themselves,

prokaryotes assimilate genetic traits.... "

He goes on to: state " Inside our bodies, most dramatically in the gut,

prokaryotes absorb genetic information that informs our function as

organisms... "

---

Epigenetics is the science that says we undergo modifications to the

DNA sheathes, to essentially turn processes on and off. This occurs

due to exposure to the environment.

---

So now my questions:

If I make T'ej, does that mean the bacteria will absorb the genetic

material from the honey? I would assume the bacteria would also

absorb the genetic material from the local environment where my T'ej

is being fermented?

When I ingest it does my body become aware of the honey's DNA and

therefore know how to process it better?

When the bacteria settles in my gut, does this mean it will be

assimilated by the existing bacteria to make some kind of a

collective? Will all the bacteria in my gut then know honey?

Can this actually effect my Epigenetics? Is there somewhere

genetically that my body stores this information about honey and the

environment it was fermented in? or does this stay in the gut?

I think this is really kewl, and I would really love to understand it

more. Thanks in advance to everyone who answers!

Sincerely,

Lana M. Gibbons

[Guest guest]

Now there's something I've never thought about. I too would like to know

more about this. Anyone know more about this?

Tom

Lana Gibbons wrote:

>Hello All,

>

>I am really enjoying my Wild Fermentation book. However, I do have a

>few questions.

>

[Guest guest]

Tom,

I didn't think about it until I got to thinking about local honey.

(For my T'ej! LOL) I often reccomend local honey to people with

pollen allergies as a way of desensitizing those allergies. It really

does work!

So thats why I was wondering about local bacteria and the fermentation

it creates. I don't know where I read this, but I was reading about

people who are lactose intolerant who can eat fermented dairy products

(which contain lactic acid instead of lactose): the more yogurt they

consumed, the more unfermented dairy they could consume without ill

effects.

It makes me wonder if its possible to treat allergies using fermented

allergens. After all, allergies occur when the body doesn't know how

to assimilate a substance. To be able to teach the body on such a

basic level would be fantastic!

To throw even another question into the mix: When the local bacteria

is airborne before it finds my T'ej, does it absorb genetic material

from my enviroment? Would that include local contagens? Would that

create a vaccine-like effect for my immune system?

-Lana M. Gibbons

On 9/25/05, L. Jeanne <t.l.jeanne@...> wrote:

> Now there's something I've never thought about. I too would like to know

> more about this. Anyone know more about this?

>

> Tom

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Lana Gibbons

> On page 11 Katz states " The study of symbiogenesis views

> evolutionary innovation as a consequence of symbiosis,

> tracing the source of all life to prokaryotes, which are

> cells distinguished by the absense of nuclear membrances.

> Bacteria are prokaryotes. Their genetic material is

> free-floating in the cell. " Genes from the fluid medium,

> from other bacteria, from viruses, or from elsewhere enter

> bacterial cells on their own, " write biologists Lynn Margulis

> and Karlene V. Schwartz.

> By incorporating DNA from their environment into themselves,

> prokaryotes assimilate genetic traits.... "

>

> He goes on to: state " Inside our bodies, most dramatically in

> the gut, prokaryotes absorb genetic information that informs

> our function as organisms... "

As far as I can tell, the above has little if anything to do with

epigenetics. Epigenetics is about things that affect the degree to which

existing genes are expressed, not the modification of the genes themselves,

as noted below:

> Epigenetics is the science that says we undergo modifications

> to the DNA sheathes, to essentially turn processes on and

> off. This occurs due to exposure to the environment.

> If I make T'ej, does that mean the bacteria will absorb the

> genetic material from the honey?

Does honey even have genetic material, other than the stuff like bee parts

that get in there accidentally? It may, but I'm not aware that it does.

> I would assume the bacteria

> would also absorb the genetic material from the local

> environment where my T'ej is being fermented?

Probably, but you're making this more complicated than it has to be. The

genetic material would come in primarily in the form of other bacteria and

fungi. So even if the bacteria in your culture didn't incorporate genes from

environmental bacteria, your culture would incorporate those bacteria

anyway.

> When I ingest it does my body become aware of the honey's DNA

> and therefore know how to process it better?

I don't know, but I doubt it. Human cells are eukaryotic, not prokaryotic,

so I don't think they're even capable of incorporating DNA from food or

bacteria. They do incorporate genes from viruses (which is why viruses are

used as vectors for gene therapy), and I suppose in theory a virus could

infect a bacterium, then incorporate some of the bacterial genes and infect

your cells with them, but I don't know how likely that is. I also don't know

whether there are any viruses that can infect both bacteria and humans.

But you don't need to incorporate " honey's DNA " to get better at processing

it. If you consume a beverage made by fermenting honey, then you'll have the

kind of bacteria that ferment honey in your gut.

[Guest guest]

,

> Does honey even have genetic material, other than the stuff like bee parts

> that get in there accidentally? It may, but I'm not aware that it does.

I thought plants have genetics too? Honey is plant pollens which have

been processed by bees, isn't it?

> As far as I can tell, the above has little if anything to do with

> epigenetics. Epigenetics is about things that affect the degree to which

> existing genes are expressed, not the modification of the genes themselves,

> as noted below:

Maybe " sheathes " is the wrong word then. What I meant was

modifications to the things that hold the genes (not the genes

themselves because that is genetics). Like a piece of glass between

two rooms - if you change the glass you change how one side sees the

other. From what I understood epigenetics changes the glass between

the genes and the rest of the body - this is why it is heritable, but

not genetic.

> Probably, but you're making this more complicated than it has to be. The

> genetic material would come in primarily in the form of other bacteria and

> fungi. So even if the bacteria in your culture didn't incorporate genes from

> environmental bacteria, your culture would incorporate those bacteria

> anyway.

I thought only specific bacteria were attracted when you are trying to

ferment? For example, alcohol causing bacteria comes before vinegar

causing bacteria. Would the alcohol causing bacteria have influence

from the vinegar causing bacteria due to being in the same environment

with it even though the vinegar causing bacteria is not yet interested

in my ferment?

I know it doesn't matter how it works as long as I get the bacteria,

but I really would like to know how this all works.

> But you don't need to incorporate " honey's DNA " to get better at processing

> it. If you consume a beverage made by fermenting honey, then you'll have

> the kind of bacteria that ferment honey in your gut.

So does the new honey fermenting bacteria get assimilated by the

existing bacteria in the gut so that all the bacteria in my gut know

how to ferment honey? Or do I rely on what little honey fermenting

bacteria I have eaten to do the job? (How many kinds of bacteria are

in our guts?)

Thanks!!

-Lana