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Re: Sugar Consumption Post-Workout - Any Benefit?

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Tom-

>I presume that even if it sugars were indicated post-workout, it would

>be best to get them as unrefined as possible. IOW, even if blood sugar

>is low and this is one situation where a quick dump of sugar would be OK

>(which I'm not sure about either), refined sugars lack the accompanying

>nutrients to be processed by the body. Some sort of fruit smoothie with

>raw honey sounds tasty....

Well... if you accept the argument that being a fat-burner is healthier

than being a sugar-burner, I'd tend to think that the inevitable conclusion

would be to avoid sugary post-workout foods and stick to meat and

fat. That's not exactly universally accepted, though (to say the least!)

so if you are going to cave into the cravings, you're right, the sugar

shouldn't be refined in the least. Fruit PLUS honey sounds way over the

top to me, though, since most fruits have been effectively refined by

selective breeding (and poor soils) and raw honey is already super-dense in

sugar.

If you don't have any fat to lose, though, I suppose you could have a plate

of raw liver with a blueberry smoothie. <g>

-

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Most fruits are already plenty sweet for me, I don't know why I said

that. So if I understand correctly, you suggest that having a depressed

blood-sugar level for a while after a workout is not a problem and is

not a reason to dump in some sugar? Is there something I can eat before

working out that will prevent this and obviate the need/cravings?

Tom

Idol wrote:

>Well... if you accept the argument that being a fat-burner is healthier

>than being a sugar-burner, I'd tend to think that the inevitable conclusion

>would be to avoid sugary post-workout foods and stick to meat and

>fat. That's not exactly universally accepted, though (to say the least!)

>so if you are going to cave into the cravings, you're right, the sugar

>shouldn't be refined in the least. Fruit PLUS honey sounds way over the

>top to me, though, since most fruits have been effectively refined by

>selective breeding (and poor soils) and raw honey is already super-dense in

>sugar.

>

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Tom-

>Most fruits are already plenty sweet for me, I don't know why I said

>that. So if I understand correctly, you suggest that having a depressed

>blood-sugar level for a while after a workout is not a problem and is

>not a reason to dump in some sugar? Is there something I can eat before

>working out that will prevent this and obviate the need/cravings?

It may be a problem, but I wouldn't call consuming more sugar a

solution. I'd advise retraining your body to be a fat-burner, so that it

always has plenty of fuel at hand. I wouldn't eat before your workout

either, though. Then your digestive system will be competing with your

muscles for energy, and both will suffer.

-

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On 9/25/05, L. Jeanne <t.l.jeanne@...> wrote:

> After a good workout I always crave a cold, somewhat sweet beverage.

> This is really the only time in my daily life that I crave sweets.

> Should I listen to my body or ignore it and stick to raw liver?

>

> I presume that even if it sugars were indicated post-workout, it would

> be best to get them as unrefined as possible. IOW, even if blood sugar

> is low and this is one situation where a quick dump of sugar would be OK

> (which I'm not sure about either), refined sugars lack the accompanying

> nutrients to be processed by the body. Some sort of fruit smoothie with

> raw honey sounds tasty....

>

> Tom

Hi,

I also sometimes get blood sugar crashes after intense exercise. I've

been dealing with it by drinking big glasses of water with lemon

juice-- maybe 1/2 lemon per glass. It rehydrates me quickly and seems

to stabilize my blood sugar.

FDA lists lemons as having 1g sugar per, so I don't think it's a

simple sugar spike.

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-

>FDA lists lemons as having 1g sugar per, so I don't think it's a

>simple sugar spike.

True, but they list the total carb content of the juice of a lemon as 4g,

so I'm guessing the 1g figure is probably an error. 3g of starch in lemon

juice?

Not that that's exactly a huge difference.

-

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> -----Original Message-----

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Idol

> -

>

> >FDA lists lemons as having 1g sugar per, so I don't think

> it's a simple

> >sugar spike.

>

> True, but they list the total carb content of the juice of a

> lemon as 4g, so I'm guessing the 1g figure is probably an

> error. 3g of starch in lemon juice?

Probabily citric acid, which I believe counts as carbohydrate but not as

sugar.

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On 9/26/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

> >FDA lists lemons as having 1g sugar per, so I don't think it's a

> >simple sugar spike.

>

> True, but they list the total carb content of the juice of a lemon as 4g,

> so I'm guessing the 1g figure is probably an error. 3g of starch in lemon

> juice?

>

> Not that that's exactly a huge difference.

Yeah, you're right. This one says 5g carbs, with 1.6g being fiber

(lost if you're only using the juice?) and 1.5g sugar. No idea where

the other ~2g comes from... this site says there's no starch. Could

it be the seeds? Who knows.

> -

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On 9/26/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

> >Probabily citric acid, which I believe counts as carbohydrate but not as

> >sugar.

>

> Ah! Didn't realize they count it as a carb in the USDA. Thanks!

My understanding is that the USDA follows the general convention of

considering anything with a CH(2)O ratio to be a carbohydrate,

yielding some substances that are smaller than sugar to be considered

a carb. Lactic acid would be another one.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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On 9/26/05, L. Jeanne <t.l.jeanne@...> wrote:

> Most fruits are already plenty sweet for me, I don't know why I said

> that. So if I understand correctly, you suggest that having a depressed

> blood-sugar level for a while after a workout is not a problem and is

> not a reason to dump in some sugar? Is there something I can eat before

> working out that will prevent this and obviate the need/cravings?

If your goal is to build muscle maximally, the conventional belief is

that you will build more muscle if you have an insulin spike after

your workout. Protein is more effective than carb, but both are

effective. Consuming sugars with some protein will help maximize this

response, and spare the protein for structural use. I would recommend

against fruit, because fructose will not produce a quick spike, since

it needs to be converted to glucose in the liver, and about a third is

converted into fat instead of glucose. I think maple syrup would

probably be the best simple sugar to consume in large amounts because

I think that it's mostly glucose-based disacharides (maltose) and, of

course, raw honey is good, but still has quite a bit of fructose. I

would think maybe maple syrup and raw honey at a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio

would be good.

If your interest is not to maximize the rate of muscle growth, then I

wouldn't bother with the sugars, and I would follow 's idea of

becoming a fat-burner as an experiment.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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To add on to what is saying: sugars, specifically glucose, will

replenish glycogen in the muscles and spare protein from being burned.

Whether being on a ketogenic diet will also spare protein or not I'm

not sure, but most bodybuilders will tell you that ketogenic diets are

horrible to be on while lifting and will not give as much gains as a

" normal " bulking diet.

Also, the insulin spike will promote muscle-building as insulin also

shuttles protein to cells - it's not just an evil fat-builder. That is

why you should also consume protein after a workout.

If fat-burning is the goal, then complex carbs (vegetables) and lean

protein consumed after a workout is better. We all know that fat is

good, yes, but when digestion is delayed while the body is catabolic,

muscle will most likely be burned.

To reiterate Chris' point about fructose: it's a bad option for

glycogen-refilling/post-workout. It fills liver glycogen, gets

converted to fat easily and doesn't provide the spike needed.

-Nina

> > Most fruits are already plenty sweet for me, I don't know why I said

> > that. So if I understand correctly, you suggest that having a

depressed

> > blood-sugar level for a while after a workout is not a problem and is

> > not a reason to dump in some sugar? Is there something I can eat

before

> > working out that will prevent this and obviate the need/cravings?

>

> If your goal is to build muscle maximally, the conventional belief is

> that you will build more muscle if you have an insulin spike after

> your workout. Protein is more effective than carb, but both are

> effective. Consuming sugars with some protein will help maximize this

> response, and spare the protein for structural use. I would recommend

> against fruit, because fructose will not produce a quick spike, since

> it needs to be converted to glucose in the liver, and about a third is

> converted into fat instead of glucose. I think maple syrup would

> probably be the best simple sugar to consume in large amounts because

> I think that it's mostly glucose-based disacharides (maltose) and, of

> course, raw honey is good, but still has quite a bit of fructose. I

> would think maybe maple syrup and raw honey at a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio

> would be good.

>

> If your interest is not to maximize the rate of muscle growth, then I

> wouldn't bother with the sugars, and I would follow 's idea of

> becoming a fat-burner as an experiment.

>

> Chris

> --

> Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

> And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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Thank you very much, and Nina. Very helpful. Muscle-building is

definitley my goal, I'm lean already. So protein alone will induce an

insulin spike? Interesting. what do you take post-workout?

Maple syrup is 65% sucrose according to one site I just found. Maybe

you're thinking of brown rice syrup?

Tom

miffytiramisu wrote:

>To add on to what is saying: sugars, specifically glucose, will

>replenish glycogen in the muscles and spare protein from being burned.

>Whether being on a ketogenic diet will also spare protein or not I'm

>not sure, but most bodybuilders will tell you that ketogenic diets are

>horrible to be on while lifting and will not give as much gains as a

> " normal " bulking diet.

>

>Also, the insulin spike will promote muscle-building as insulin also

>shuttles protein to cells - it's not just an evil fat-builder. That is

>why you should also consume protein after a workout.

>

>If fat-burning is the goal, then complex carbs (vegetables) and lean

>protein consumed after a workout is better. We all know that fat is

>good, yes, but when digestion is delayed while the body is catabolic,

>muscle will most likely be burned.

>

>To reiterate Chris' point about fructose: it's a bad option for

>glycogen-refilling/post-workout. It fills liver glycogen, gets

>converted to fat easily and doesn't provide the spike needed.

>

>-Nina

>

>

>>

>>

>>>Most fruits are already plenty sweet for me, I don't know why I said

>>>that. So if I understand correctly, you suggest that having a

>>>

>>>

>depressed

>

>

>>>blood-sugar level for a while after a workout is not a problem and is

>>>not a reason to dump in some sugar? Is there something I can eat

>>>

>>>

>before

>

>

>>>working out that will prevent this and obviate the need/cravings?

>>>

>>>

>>If your goal is to build muscle maximally, the conventional belief is

>>that you will build more muscle if you have an insulin spike after

>>your workout. Protein is more effective than carb, but both are

>>effective. Consuming sugars with some protein will help maximize this

>>response, and spare the protein for structural use. I would recommend

>>against fruit, because fructose will not produce a quick spike, since

>>it needs to be converted to glucose in the liver, and about a third is

>>converted into fat instead of glucose. I think maple syrup would

>>probably be the best simple sugar to consume in large amounts because

>>I think that it's mostly glucose-based disacharides (maltose) and, of

>>course, raw honey is good, but still has quite a bit of fructose. I

>>would think maybe maple syrup and raw honey at a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio

>>would be good.

>>

>>If your interest is not to maximize the rate of muscle growth, then I

>>wouldn't bother with the sugars, and I would follow 's idea of

>>becoming a fat-burner as an experiment.

>>

>>Chris

>>--

>>Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

>>And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

>>http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

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On 9/27/05, L. Jeanne <t.l.jeanne@...> wrote:

> Thank you very much, and Nina. Very helpful. Muscle-building is

> definitley my goal, I'm lean already. So protein alone will induce an

> insulin spike? Interesting. what do you take post-workout?

Well I wasn't working out for a while because of fasting and then

antifungal therapy, and I really lost a LOT of gains, muscle, but

especially strength, and just started back this week. Although I'm on

an anti-candida regimen, I've decided to forgo too much carb

restriction, and am hoping that just using generous HCl and enzymes,

spacing my meals properly, eating things that are easy to digest, and

antifungals and probiotics will be sufficient.

So I started making a smoothie of six raw egg yolks, a tablespoon of

raw honey, one or two of maple syrup, and some blueberries, mostly to

make sure I have some vitamin C and flavanoids and whatever that are

needed for tissue-building. Probably better to take a C/flavanoid

with it, since you'd get a lot more.

> Maple syrup is 65% sucrose according to one site I just found. Maybe

> you're thinking of brown rice syrup?

I don't know why I was thinking it was mostly maltose. What was the

other 35%? Maltose? If so It still has a reasonable glucose:fructose

ratio. Maybe it would be better to use straight glucose (dextrose)

with some other nutrient support. Not sure.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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From the USDA database:

100g of maple syrup has 59.52g of sugar.

Of which Sucrose: 56.28g

Of which Glucose: 2.37g

Of which Fructose: 0.88g

So the breakdown is 51.26% glucose, 48.74% fructose. :)

-Nina

> I don't know why I was thinking it was mostly maltose. What was the

> other 35%? Maltose? If so It still has a reasonable glucose:fructose

> ratio. Maybe it would be better to use straight glucose (dextrose)

> with some other nutrient support. Not sure.

>

> Chris

>

> --

> Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

> And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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> I don't know why I was thinking it was mostly maltose. What was the

> other 35%? Maltose? If so It still has a reasonable glucose:fructose

> ratio. Maybe it would be better to use straight glucose (dextrose)

> with some other nutrient support. Not sure.

>

> Chris

chris, what's the rationale for supplementing with refined carbs? I'm a

whole-foods person so i honestly don't know. I thought the whole NT

ethos was native foods, not refined?

Connie

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On 9/27/05, miffytiramisu <miffytiramisu@...> wrote:

> From the USDA database:

>

> 100g of maple syrup has 59.52g of sugar.

> Of which Sucrose: 56.28g

> Of which Glucose: 2.37g

> Of which Fructose: 0.88g

>

> So the breakdown is 51.26% glucose, 48.74% fructose. :)

Wow I couldn't have been more wrong! I think I invented it in my head

a long time ago and then just repeated it so many times I convinced

myself it was true without ever looking it up. LOL.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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On 9/27/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> chris, what's the rationale for supplementing with refined carbs? I'm a

> whole-foods person so i honestly don't know. I thought the whole NT

> ethos was native foods, not refined?

It has nothing to do with the NT ethos. He said muscle-building was

his priority, in which case supplementing with refined carbs is

probably helpful post-workout. The rationale is to produce an insulin

spike after the workout which will counteract the exercise-induced

cortisol, prevent muscle breakdown during this period, and raise

growth factors.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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So I infer that the body easily cleaves maltose into glucose, whereas

fructose is a pain to digest, despite being a monosaccharide. Anywhere I

can find more info on this?

The " power gel " I sometimes use when bicycling contains brown rice

syrup, and it sounds like that's mostly maltose. According to

Wikipedia, brown rice syrup is " roughly 50% soluble complex

carbohydrates <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrates>, 45% maltose

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltose>, and 3% glucose

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose>. The glucose is absorbed into the

bloodstream immediately, the maltose takes up to one and a half hours to

be digested, and the complex carbohydrates take from two to three hours,

providing a steady supply of energy. "

Tom

Masterjohn wrote:

>Wow I couldn't have been more wrong! I think I invented it in my head

>a long time ago and then just repeated it so many times I convinced

>myself it was true without ever looking it up. LOL.

>

>Chris

>

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okay thanks. Remember I'm new and I thought the list was about

accomplishing goals like muscle building with traditional NT foods.

That's my interest so I look for it where it isn't, I see...

Connie

>

> > chris, what's the rationale for supplementing with refined

carbs? I'm a

> > whole-foods person so i honestly don't know. I thought the whole

NT

> > ethos was native foods, not refined?

>

> It has nothing to do with the NT ethos. He said muscle-building

was

> his priority, in which case supplementing with refined carbs is

> probably helpful post-workout. The rationale is to produce an

insulin

> spike after the workout which will counteract the exercise-induced

> cortisol, prevent muscle breakdown during this period, and raise

> growth factors.

>

> Chris

> --

> Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

> And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-

Effects.html

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On 9/27/05, L. Jeanne <t.l.jeanne@...> wrote:

> So I infer that the body easily cleaves maltose into glucose, whereas

> fructose is a pain to digest, despite being a monosaccharide. Anywhere I

> can find more info on this?

Fructose isn't digested at all. It's a monosacharide, so does not

need to be broken down. However, it is basically unusable and needs

to be converted in the liver. It's well-established that fructose

leads to a much slower blood glucose spike because of this, and that

roughly a third of it is converted into triglycerides, which is why it

raises triglyceride levels.

While maltose needs to be digested, that's something that happens

comparatively quickly, unless you have dysbiosis or other

malabsorption/digestive issues.

I have a couple reviews of fructose metabolism here on paper, but they

are restricted access online last I knew. However, unless it's been

deleted, I'm pretty sure that back in the day a year or two ago I

scanned and uploaded one of them to the files section of this list.

I'm guessing that actually violates copyright laws but whatever.

Anyway, you could look and see if it's there.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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On 9/27/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> okay thanks. Remember I'm new and I thought the list was about

> accomplishing goals like muscle building with traditional NT foods.

> That's my interest so I look for it where it isn't, I see...

Hi Connie,

I've been on the list a few years, and I'd warn against trying to

formulate a statement that captures what this list is about! LOL! I

think people who have been here for a while know what I mean ;-)

Well, I was just answering his question. I said if he wanted to

maximize muscle building as his #1 priority, that using simple sugars

will probably help him build muscle faster, but that if he was not in

a rush to build muscle, it would probably be safer to take the slow

path and avoid the sugars.

My personal *guess* is that, as long as the sugars are not fructose,

and as long as they are basically limited to post-workout, they are

probably not terribly harmful IF they are not in addition to a meal,

but incorporated into a meal. In other words, say you're following

Mastering Leptin or the Warrior Diet-- in the former case whatever you

eat post-workout should probably precede your dinner quickly or count

as your lunch, and in the case of the latter, you'd have to consume it

as the first course of your Warrior Meal.

But that's just a guess, and I imagine that ultimately, maximum health

would mean cutting out the simple sugars. But I also think the

intense exercise and energy expenditure would make the simples not so

harmful providing there's no gut or metabolism issues.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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> Hi Connie,

>

> I've been on the list a few years, and I'd warn against trying to

> formulate a statement that captures what this list is about! LOL!

I

> think people who have been here for a while know what I mean ;-)

LOL I may be slow but even I am getting that one! I've been accused

of being too literal lots of times. My loved ones joke that being

with me in those times is being in literal hell. ha.

> But that's just a guess, and I imagine that ultimately, maximum

health

> would mean cutting out the simple sugars. But I also think the

> intense exercise and energy expenditure would make the simples not

so

> harmful providing there's no gut or metabolism issues.

>

> Chris

otay. I get that. Healthy metabolisms do seem to accomodate quite a

lot that I wouldn't put mine through, bless its heart.

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Again, to add on to Chris' statements :D

To clarify, maltose is a disaccharide made of two glucose molecules. A

simple enzyme action (maltase) in the small intestine cleaves the

maltose molecule. It is then absorbed in the small intestine.

Fructose can be utilized in both muscle and liver, though it seems

that it preferentially goes to the liver. In the liver, it is acted

upon by a number of kinases, becoming Fructose-6-phosphate (F6P) etc.

until it yields 2 Glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate (G3P) molecules, which is

an intermediate in glycolysis. It then travels the same pathway as

glucose in ATP (energy) production. What's interesting is that glucose

is also first turned into F6P before becoming G3P and continuing on

its merry way. Why the body does this, I have no idea.

-Nina

> Fructose isn't digested at all. It's a monosacharide, so does not

> need to be broken down. However, it is basically unusable and needs

> to be converted in the liver. It's well-established that fructose

> leads to a much slower blood glucose spike because of this, and that

> roughly a third of it is converted into triglycerides, which is why it

> raises triglyceride levels.

>

> While maltose needs to be digested, that's something that happens

> comparatively quickly, unless you have dysbiosis or other

> malabsorption/digestive issues.

>

> I have a couple reviews of fructose metabolism here on paper, but they

> are restricted access online last I knew. However, unless it's been

> deleted, I'm pretty sure that back in the day a year or two ago I

> scanned and uploaded one of them to the files section of this list.

> I'm guessing that actually violates copyright laws but whatever.

> Anyway, you could look and see if it's there.

>

> Chris

> --

> Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

> And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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On 9/28/05, miffytiramisu <miffytiramisu@...> wrote:

> Fructose can be utilized in both muscle and liver, though it seems

> that it preferentially goes to the liver. In the liver, it is acted

> upon by a number of kinases, becoming Fructose-6-phosphate (F6P) etc.

> until it yields 2 Glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate (G3P) molecules, which is

> an intermediate in glycolysis. It then travels the same pathway as

> glucose in ATP (energy) production. What's interesting is that glucose

> is also first turned into F6P before becoming G3P and continuing on

> its merry way. Why the body does this, I have no idea.

Hi Nina,

I'm just going off the top of my head here, but it sounds like the

above mechanism is for burning fructose as energy, isn't it? The

information I've read says that 60% or so is converted to glucose and

eventually reaches the blood as glucose.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

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Nina-

>A

>simple enzyme action (maltase) in the small intestine cleaves the

>maltose molecule. It is then absorbed in the small intestine.

Unfortunately, anyone whose villi aren't in tip-top shape is likely to

produce insufficient maltase, meaning that although maltose is preferable

to fructose and fructose-containing disaccharides on the basis of its lower

glycation potential, it's dangerous to anyone with any kind of gut

problems, as the villi are among the first elements of the digestive system

to be injured.

-

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