Ketones in urine?

[Guest guest]

At my prenatal check up yesterday, ketones showed up in my urine. I

thought this happens when you go on a REALLY high fat diet...

Here's what I ate:

Breakfast (9am)

-peach

-2 scrambled eggs with cheddar and tomatoes

-16 oz plain, raw kefir

-2 figs

Lunch (1:15pm)

-large green salad with tomato, steak, avocado, and cucumber, dressed

in olive oil and vinegar

-small portion of tzatziki (yogurt, cucumber, garlic, lemon juice)

-nettle tea

I took the test around 2:30pm

Any thoughts? Should I be worried?

TIA,

[Guest guest]

,

This is from labtestsonline.org:

Ketones

Ketones are intermediate products of fat metabolism. This happens when

a person does not eat enough carbohydrates (for example, in cases of

starvation or high-protein diets), or when a person eats enough

carbohydrates but his body can't use them properly (for example, if he

has diabetes mellitus). At this point the body metabolizes fat

(instead of carbs) to get the energy it needs to keep functioning.

Ketones in urine can give an early indication of insufficient insulin

in a person who has diabetes. Severe exercise, exposure to cold, and

loss of carbohydrates (such as in frequent vomiting) can also increase

fat metabolism, resulting in ketonuria.

Sincerely,

Lana M. Gibbons

[Guest guest]

,

I don't quite understand why you'd be concerned about ketones showing

up in your urine, as I would think this would be normal and healthy to

some degree, but look at your diet. It's like pure fat. Eggs are

something like 75% fat, and kefir has more fat than it does protein or

carbs, so your breakfast was definitely high-fat. Your lunch looks

even higher-fat, as a proportion of calories, because it has less

protein.

Additionally, you had dairy at both meals, and the medium-chain fatty

acids are ketogenic independent of carb concentration.

But why is this a problem?

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thanks for your input.

My midwives were a bit concerned as this is " not normal " apparently.

We didn't get into a whole discussion about it, but I don't really

know anything about ketones and wanted to see what ya'll thought about

it. Could it indicate that my body isn't using carbs as energy? I

did eat fruit in the am, although my lunch wasn't carb-heavy at all.

Is concern about ketones related to anti-fat thinking in general?

On 9/21/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> ,

>

> I don't quite understand why you'd be concerned about ketones showing

> up in your urine, as I would think this would be normal and healthy to

> some degree, but look at your diet. It's like pure fat. Eggs are

> something like 75% fat, and kefir has more fat than it does protein or

> carbs, so your breakfast was definitely high-fat. Your lunch looks

> even higher-fat, as a proportion of calories, because it has less

> protein.

>

> Additionally, you had dairy at both meals, and the medium-chain fatty

> acids are ketogenic independent of carb concentration.

>

> But why is this a problem?

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>I don't quite understand why you'd be concerned about ketones showing

>up in your urine, as I would think this would be normal and healthy to

>some degree, but look at your diet. It's like pure fat. Eggs are

>something like 75% fat, and kefir has more fat than it does protein or

>carbs, so your breakfast was definitely high-fat. Your lunch looks

>even higher-fat, as a proportion of calories, because it has less

>protein.

Pure fat? That sounds like an overstatement to me, and if you count lactic

acid as a carb, kefir probably doesn't have more fat than protein or

carb. Here's a speculative breakdown of 's breakfast:

Breakfast (9am)

-peach 1 large peach: 0g fat, 15g carb (13g sugar, 2g fiber), 1g protein

-2 scrambled eggs with cheddar and tomatoes 2 large eggs: 14g fat, 2g

carb (2g sugar), 14g protein

1oz. cheddar: 9g fat, 0g carb, 7g protein

1 medium tomato: 0g fat, 6g carb (1g fiber), 1g protein

-16 oz plain, raw kefir 16oz. milk: 18g fat, 22g carb, 16g protein

-2 figs 2 large raw figs: 0g fat, 24g carb (4g fiber, 20g sugar), 0g

protein

Obviously this is somewhat speculative, but based on USDA data and a couple

guesses about portion size, which ought to yield at least an approximately

accurate count, breakfast contained 41g of fat, 69g carb (7g fiber, 62g

sugar and fermentation products thereof), 39g protein, yielding 410

calories from fat, 276 calories from carbs and 156 calories from protein,

or 842 total calories, of which 49% were from fat, 33% were from carbs and

18% were from protein.

I wouldn't call anything below 50% high fat, and certainly not " pure fat " ,

though obviously mainstream thought would hold that anything over 30% is

high, and in some circles even 20-30% might be considered high.

That said, I agree with you about the ketones -- I really doubt they mean

anything bad. People conflate ketosis with ketoacidosis all the time, and

it may be that anyone eating even a relatively high-fat diet will produce some.

-

[Guest guest]

-

What the heck, I'll break your lunch down too, just to be maximally annoying.

For simplicity's sake I'm going to use lettuce for all your greens.

Lunch (1:15pm)

-large green salad with tomato, steak, avocado, and cucumber, dressed in

olive oil and vinegar

1 cup shredded raw red leaf lettuce: 0g fat, 2g carb, 0g protein

1 large red ripe raw tomato: 1g fat, 8g carb (2g fiber), 2g protein

3oz. sirloin, cooked: 19g fat, 0g carb, 24g protein

1/2 an avocado: 13.5g fat, 7.5g carb (6g sugar, 0.5g fiber), 1.5g protein

1/2 cup cucumber w/ peel: 0g fat, 2g carb (0g fiber, 1g sugar), 0g

protein

1T olive oil: 14g fat

1T ACV: 0g fat, 1g carb (1g sugar), 0g protein

-small portion of tzatziki (yogurt, cucumber, garlic, lemon juice)

1/2 cup yoghurt: 4g fat, 5.5g carb (5.5g sugar), 4.5g protein

1/4 cup cucumber w/o peel: 0g fat, 3/4g carb (1/4g fiber, 1/2g sugar)

1/4g protein

1 clove garlic: 1g carb

1T lemon juice: 0g fat, 1.5g carb (0.5g sugar???), 0g protein

-nettle tea

1 cup decaf black tea: 0g fat, 1g carb, 0g protein

This is obviously more speculative than my breakfast breakdown, but so it

goes: 51.5g fat, 30.25g carb, 32.25g protein, or 515 calories from fat, 121

calories from carbs and 129 calories from protein, or 67% from fat, 16%

from carbs and 17% from protein, again disregarding the fact that some of

your food will be used for structural purposes, especially during your

pregnancy.

This meal is higher in fat than your breakfast, relatively speaking, but

it's likely lower in saturated fat, since so much of the fat (about half)

came from highly monounsaturated sources (the avocado and the olive oil),

which may or may not be a mildly undesirable thing. Actually, I'd worry

less about eating some mono fat and more about just getting more saturated

fat, but that's just me.

More importantly, it seems to me you're just not eating nearly enough

protein if these two meals are representative. 18% protein at breakfast

and 17% at lunch (and that based on a generous estimate of how much steak

was in your salad, meaning the actual numbers might be a lot lower!) might

be OK for a woman in everyday life whose not doing anything much in the way

of physical training, but when pregnant? Pregnancy certainly isn't my area

of expertise, but I'd expect that a pregnant woman needs a lot more protein

than you seem to be getting, so at the very least I'd strongly encourage

you to look into the issue. I also wonder whether you're eating enough

calories period. If dinner is on the order of breakfast and lunch, you

might be eating a total of 2400 calories for the day. I don't remember

exactly how tall you are, but I don't remember you being short, so while

that might be a touch high under normal (non-pregnant) circumstances, it

seems to me like it might be low when you're eating for two. Or maybe I'm

completely wrong on that. Other people could doubtless give you better

information on that subject, and maybe your appetite is adequate to the

task of regulating your food intake, and maybe you're eating a bigger

dinner. Just food for thought.

If nothing else, I'd really consider replacing some of the fruit with meat,

though. I seriously doubt you're getting enough protein unless you're

eating heaps o' meat at dinner.

If you're worried about the ketones -- and I doubt there's cause for worry

-- test your blood sugar throughout the day to see if there's anything

hinky going on.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>avocado

I forgot to mention that on another list I'm on, a doctor says that

avocados are extremely moldy. If so, they'd kind of seem contraindicated

for pregnancy.

-

[Guest guest]

i quite frequently had ketones in my urine while pregnant. the

midwives always encouraged me to eat more, especially more protein.

lisa

> At my prenatal check up yesterday, ketones showed up in my urine. I

> thought this happens when you go on a REALLY high fat diet...

>

> Here's what I ate:

>

> Breakfast (9am)

> -peach

> -2 scrambled eggs with cheddar and tomatoes

> -16 oz plain, raw kefir

> -2 figs

>

> Lunch (1:15pm)

> -large green salad with tomato, steak, avocado, and cucumber, dressed

> in olive oil and vinegar

> -small portion of tzatziki (yogurt, cucumber, garlic, lemon juice)

> -nettle tea

>

> I took the test around 2:30pm

>

> Any thoughts? Should I be worried?

>

> TIA,

>

>

[Guest guest]

--

You're right that " pure fat " was a silly slip. I guess I

underestimated the carb content of some of the foods. Either way, fat

was the dominant macronutrient in both meals, and especially if, as

you say, her diet is moderately low-calorie, I don't think she's

consuming enough carbs to suppress fat-burning (nor do I understand

why this would necessarily be desireable.)

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>I don't think she's

>consuming enough carbs to suppress fat-burning (nor do I understand

>why this would necessarily be desireable.)

AFAIK the presence of ketones in her urine confirms that she's burning fat,

but as there's no evidence that she's diabetic, I just can't see why that

would be bad -- and more generally, I cannot imagine why anyone should ever

want to suppress fat-burning.

-

[Guest guest]

because they are pregnant?

lisa

> AFAIK the presence of ketones in her urine confirms that she's

burning fat,

> but as there's no evidence that she's diabetic, I just can't see why

that

> would be bad -- and more generally, I cannot imagine why anyone

should ever

> want to suppress fat-burning.

>

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

-

>because they are pregnant?

>lisa

>

> > AFAIK the presence of ketones in her urine confirms that she's

>burning fat,

> > but as there's no evidence that she's diabetic, I just can't see why

>that

> > would be bad -- and more generally, I cannot imagine why anyone

>should ever

> > want to suppress fat-burning.

Why? Burning fat is a relatively clean, healthy process. Burning sugar is

comparatively dirty and harmful. Why would burning fat ever be bad?

-

[Guest guest]

On 9/22/05, lisa_mc_connell <mmlisa2@...> wrote:

> because they are pregnant?

Readily admitting I know _nothing_ about pregnancy-specific nutrition,

that's not much of an answer. _Why_ is fat-burning undesirable when

pregnant?

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Readily admitting I know _nothing_ about pregnancy-specific nutrition,

>that's not much of an answer. _Why_ is fat-burning undesirable when

>pregnant?

This is complete and utter speculation, but it occurs to me that

fat-burning might be even MORE desirable during pregnancy, because the

developing fetus's own metabolism is doubtless influenced by the mother's,

not to mention by the mix of nutrients it's getting.

-

[Guest guest]

Sandy-

>When I was pregnant and the doc found Ketones in my urine he was very

>upset and told me that whatever I was doing to stop...he said, " you

>are not supposed to produce ketones when pregnant! " He didn't say

>why...the appointment previous to that one he had told me to stop

>gaining weight so I cut out all bread and that's what I was doing

>different.

>

>That was many years ago...

I'm open to any kind of explanation of why ketones would be bad, but the

general perception that they're bad (at any time) is because you're not

" supposed " to burn fat, you're " supposed " to burn sugar, and ketones also

appear in diabetics, meaning that ketone production is therefore regarded

as a disaster. Atkins talked at length about this, and about why what he

called " benign dietary ketosis " , as opposed to diabetic ketoacidosis, is a

great thing.

Admittedly he didn't discuss pregnancy (that I can recall) but I not only

can't imagine why fat burning would be bad during pregnancy, I can imagine

why it might be good, and none of Price's healthy natives (to my

recollection) made any kind of point of eating more carbs during

pregnancy. The focus always seemed to be on fats, fat-soluble nutrients

and protein.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>My goal is to get

>about 100 grams of protein in a day, but I don't count calories.

Is there a reason for the 100g figure? Like I've said (and I won't bore

you by saying it anymore) I'm no pregnancy expert & mdash; it's just not a

subject I've looked into & mdash; but inasmuch as pregnancy is likened to

the stress of bodybuilding but with a greater burden actually on the woman,

I'd think 100g of protein would be on the light side, maybe very light.

>I usually snack

>throughout the afternoon on raw egg yolks, bone broth, brewer's yeast,

>hummus and carrots, almond butter, and raw milk.

Perhaps pregnancy changes the rules, but snacking through the day is never

a good idea under any other condition, and if your own metabolism is in any

way imprinting on your baby's, you could be slightly predisposing your kid

to insulin/leptin metabolism problems even though most of those foods are

nutritious and healthy. Unless there are known reasons for snacking during

pregnancy, I'd really recommend following the leptin meal timing rules.

>I do think I could

>eat more meat in general, but I have source and budget issues, so I'm

>doing the best that I can right now.

Yeah, that's always a problem for the non-rich. Do you have a separate

freezer? Is there any way you can order cheaper meats in bulk?

>I'm thinking that adding some homemade sausage patties to breakfast

>would be a great idea....perhaps lamb...mmmmm.

Definitely! Sausage is a terrific food when made properly from good

ingredients!

-

[Guest guest]

On 9/22/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

> >Adelle recommends 75-90g for pg. (slightly more during

> >lactation) and Dr. Brewer (www.blueribbonbaby.org) recommends

> >80-100g/day. I think these figures are based on what it takes to

> >prevent toxemia.

>

> Huh, well, if that's what they say... except isn't toxemia a

> protein-deficiency disease? And is 75-100g roughly the minimum dose

> required to prevent it, or a little more than the minimum dose? If so,

> isn't that analogous to establishing the RDA based on the minimum amount of

> a nutrient required to prevent overt deficiency disease? I don't know --

> I'm just spitballing.

Excellent point. I think I got 120 grams yesterday without much

trouble. Re: the leptin issue, I'll keep it in mind, but I have so

many other things to worry about right now that adding another " to do "

might just break the camel's back, so to speak. On the other hand, it

does make sense....does it explain, at least in part, the " French

paradox? " Don't they avoid snacking?

[Guest guest]

-

>Re: the leptin issue, I'll keep it in mind, but I have so

>many other things to worry about right now that adding another " to do "

>might just break the camel's back, so to speak.

I know exactly what you mean, and my guess is that since you don't have

significant leptin/insulin issues to begin with that I know of, and since

you're eating good foods, the timing issue is probably less important for

you during pregnancy and your baby than it would be for other pregnant women.

> On the other hand, it

>does make sense....does it explain, at least in part, the " French

>paradox? " Don't they avoid snacking?

Yeah, though they also tend to eat more nutritious foods in the first

place, and nobody ever seems to look at that or factors like the breakdown

of fats they eat compared to other cultures eating similar total amounts of

fat.

-

[Guest guest]

On 9/22/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Yeah, though they also tend to eat more nutritious foods in the first

> place, and nobody ever seems to look at that or factors like the breakdown

> of fats they eat compared to other cultures eating similar total amounts of

> fat.

Aren't hydrogenated oils banned in France? I seem to remember reading

that a while back.

Chris

--

Statin Drugs Kill Your Brain

And Cause Transient Global Amnesia:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Statin-Drugs-Side-Effects.html

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Aren't hydrogenated oils banned in France? I seem to remember reading

>that a while back.

They are according to the PPNF.

-