Re: And a short digression

[Guest guest]

Hi José .

>Yes, that is it! Hi Deanna, hi Heidi, belonging to a discussion group

>is probably more addictive than gluten, isn't it?!

>

>The truth is that I'm here mostly because I'm interested in people.

>On second thoughts, it isn't really words that motivate me, as I said

>before. I'm perhaps a voyeur. I like watching people, and if

>appropriate, if there is empathy, interacting with them. I found that

>this is possible even on the Internet. Maybe my best hunger is for

>human contact. But maybe it is a lot more difficult for me to

>interact with people in real life.

>

Yes, perhaps it can be addictive. However, it can also be a nice, free

source of good nutritional (and other) information. When you follow an

alternative lifestyle in a conservative place, as I do, the NN group can

be an oasis of sorts. It helps reaffirm that my choices are sound at

times, when no one within earshot would agree with me.

Deanna, thinking about raising dairy goats next

[Guest guest]

>

> Hey inNewJersey, are you sure you want to become a hermit?

Yes!!!

a comparative hermit (compared to most people).

i do an all-day milk run every week and a half (almost 300 mi. and 2

dropoff points) and love seeing all my 'milk people' including the

farmers.

and we moved to a new neighborhood and i enjoy the interactions i've

had here mostly (except when i accidently set my garden on fire and

the fire dept. had to come...i still cringe with embarrassment)

but apart from that, i find myself getting upset with people on a

regular basis, whether it's with (extended) family members, utterly

rude people on the road, or friends who think it's their duty to tell

me how i should live. i dropped out of church after being a church

goer for 30 years because of all the negative experiences with people

over the years; i just gave up.

am i hard to get along with? don't know.

i'm just happier when i'm alone, or with dh and son. people sure can

be a PITA. and it's the rotten ones that ruin it for everyone else.

laura in nj

>

> (Nevertheless, I often think that man per se is really a very

> superfluous " thing " : nature certainly doesn't need us.)

>

> Sorry for this. But I will keep my emotional outbursts as short as

> possible, ok?

>

> JC

[Guest guest]

I used to find myself getting angry a lot at just about anything and

everybody -- especially while driving. I was just always bunched up with

rage it seems. When I stopped consuming gluten I lost the anger and it's

such a relief. I had no idea. ~Robin

[Guest guest]

> I used to find myself getting angry a lot at just about anything and

> everybody -- especially while driving. I was just always bunched up

with

> rage it seems. When I stopped consuming gluten I lost the anger and

it's

> such a relief. I had no idea. ~Robin

>

>

Robin, it's not anger so much as it is hurt...a kind of, what did i

do to deserve THAT???

i feel more like an object of other peoples anger...on the road, that

is. not so much in everyday life.

people giving you the finger, screaming at you...why? because i

drive the speed limit, for one. a lot of people can't seem to stand

that. one time a lady swerved right into my lane in front of me...i

had to swerve around her suddenly to avoid hitting her...and it was

apparent to me that she had been distracted by her kids in the car.

well, after i went around her, she starts gesturing and screaming at

me!! i was truly puzzled. i wasn't angry or even hurt...just

mystified. someone merged right into me the other day like i wasn't

even there...someone entering the highway. i had to slam on the

brakes to avoid being hit. THAT i have to say DID make me angry...a

person merging onto a highway pretends like there's no cars on the

highway they're merging onto? i couldn't move to the left as there

was a truck on my left. then there were the 2 accidents i was in 3

years ago both within 2 weeks; the first one i was rear-ended while

sitting at a traffic light. the other, another case where a merging

car came right into me... only this time i couldn't go anywhere and

my car was totalled. not my fault either time, according to the

police.

i live in the NE, in the NYC suburbs...lots of uptight, rude people.

(and apparently careless drivers)

i've noticed when i get out of this area, even just an hour west of

here, the people seem more laid back, nicer, more polite.

i know i'm generalizing as there are lots of nice people around here,

and i'm sure plenty of rude people in the so called perceived 'nicer'

areas.

but it's something i've noticed.

laura in nj

[Guest guest]

Robin wrote <I used to find myself getting angry a lot at just about

anything and

everybody -- especially while driving. I was just always bunched up with

rage it seems. When I stopped consuming gluten I lost the anger and it's

such a relief. I had no idea.>

Heidi often writes about the large numbers of people who have gluten

problems without knowing it and I often think about an experience I about

five years ago. I was looking into the bloodtype theory

(D'Adamo) which essentially recommends a different way of eating for each of

the four bloodtypes. I did learn some helpful things from that research,

but

eventually came to feel that the basic concept was flawed. Why? Because I

was on a very big and active list for people of all bloodtypes, and it soon

became clear that only the O's (carnivore diet there) were delighted with

their new-found energy, loss of weight, and evened-out emotional state,

while the B's and AB's (high in dairy, if I remember right) were less

enthusastic, and the A's (high in soy and grains -- though D'Adamo backed

off after book one on the enormous amount of grains he had recommended) were

the most moody and sensitive bunch of grousers (me, included <g>) you could

possibily imagine. It took me a while to realize that, whatever my

genetics, I was best off doing the carnivore thing.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

> I used to find myself getting angry a lot at just about anything and

> everybody -- especially while driving. I was just always bunched up

with

> rage it seems. When I stopped consuming gluten I lost the anger and

it's

> such a relief. I had no idea. ~Robin

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Robin wrote <I used to find myself getting angry a lot at just

about

> anything and

> everybody -- especially while driving. I was just always bunched up

with

> rage it seems. When I stopped consuming gluten I lost the anger and

it's

> such a relief. I had no idea.>

>

> Heidi often writes about the large numbers of people who have

gluten

> problems without knowing it and I often think about an experience I

about

> five years ago. I was looking into the bloodtype theory

> (D'Adamo) which essentially recommends a different way of eating

for each of

> the four bloodtypes. I did learn some helpful things from that

research,

> but

> eventually came to feel that the basic concept was flawed. Why?

Because I

> was on a very big and active list for people of all bloodtypes, and

it soon

> became clear that only the O's (carnivore diet there) were

delighted with

> their new-found energy, loss of weight, and evened-out emotional

state,

> while the B's and AB's (high in dairy, if I remember right) were

less

> enthusastic, and the A's (high in soy and grains -- though D'Adamo

backed

> off after book one on the enormous amount of grains he had

recommended) were

> the most moody and sensitive bunch of grousers (me, included <g>)

you could

> possibily imagine. It took me a while to realize that, whatever my

> genetics, I was best off doing the carnivore thing.

>

>

> http://www.taichi4seniors.com

Very good. This is why I have some difficulty in believing in

typologies, though I admit that there is some value to it.

JC

[Guest guest]

Oh I can still get angry if provoked. I'm talking about the kind of internal

anger one holds inside, the kind that is just looking for a fight, just

looking for a chance to lash out... ~Robin

[Guest guest]

>>>>>> Robin, it's not anger so much as it is hurt...a kind of, what did i

do to deserve THAT??? >>>>>>>>

Yeah, That's what I felt too... Real or perceived, I would see all sorts of

bad stuff coming my way. I also had a feeling of dread hanging over me a lot

of the time -- I couldn't figure out where it was coming from so I think I

was always sort of looking for a source? Now I think I was simply generating

many of the feelings.

But since I knew I had wheat and milk IgE allergies and no symptoms (so I

continued to eat them!!) and as a result of Heidi's singing the gluten song

I went to my doctor a month ago and was within a few weeks confirmed " proven

celiac disease " (by both blood test and biopsy.) I just got the news day

before yesterday. In fact, my MD is looking for complications from the

intestinal damage revealed in the tissue sample. I get a ct scan next week.

Heck, he's even going to write me prescriptions for the supplements I've

been taking -- things like fish oil, probiotics, enzymes, vitamins and

minerals.

I happened to quit gluten a year ago as a result of a strict candida thing I

was going through so I've had a while to experience the change in mood,

heck, the whole change in personality! Despite all the miserable health

problems I still have, I can say that for the first time in my life, I at

least feel like myself -- my nice normal self -- not that one who was always

sort of quietly upset and on edge inside -- the one who was on

antidepressants much of my life.

In my case, though, stopping the gluten hasn't stopped the intestinal damage

-- I'm older and a lot of damage has already been done. I seem to have a

refractory case and so I'm not outta the woods yet..

I'm not saying gluten intolerance is your thing or anyone else's here but,

for me, I had absolutely no symptoms from eating wheat (or milk for that

matter) except for behavioral and mood type things and I wouldn't have known

I had even THOSE symptoms if I hadn't felt what it was like to NOT have

those symptoms -- follow?

And because of my terrible personal experience I think that anyone who has

ANY sort of odd symptom should ask to be checked for gluten intolerance. I

even think they should gene-test all kids of preschool age. It's such a

simple little test and can save a LOT of heartache down the road when it's

too late to fix. (Not to mention the mood disorders along the way...)

I think that's why some people (most recently me) on this list keep talking

about gluten; it's just behind so many ailments and disgestive and mood

disorders. It's so sneaky. It's hard to think you have a problem with it as

there are so few real symptoms. I mean I read this list for months and

months and never thought the gluten issue applied to me. I laughed at the

" Glutenator " stuff. It was someone else's problem. Now I'm " in it " and can't

help but think others might be in my same boat. If you find it early enough

you can stop the damage.

And don't forget to check out the Ross Mood Cure book. It can help a

lot too because when we have impaired digestion we're not breaking protiens

down into their individual amino acids and those amino's really affect

mood..

Warm regards,

~Robin

[Guest guest]

>only the O's (carnivore diet there) were delighted with

> their new-found energy, loss of weight, and evened-out emotional state,

> while the B's and AB's (high in dairy, if I remember right) were less

> enthusastic, and the A's (high in soy and grains -- though D'Adamo backed

> off after book one on the enormous amount of grains he had recommended)

> were

> the most moody and sensitive bunch of grousers (me, included <g>) you

> could

> possibily imagine. It took me a while to realize that, whatever my

> genetics, I was best off doing the carnivore thing.

>

>

> http://www.taichi4seniors.com

There's been at least half a dozen A blood type women on this list and

others who'll agree that they're carnivores and not D'Adamo's most

agriculturally adapted. A is dominant over O. Highly doubt (if his diet

assignments are correct) that one or a few generations of blood change is

going to overrule all the genes the individual has from the preceding

ancestors. Always thought and have been told that I save my angst for the

issues worth it. Since giving gluten the boot that list narrowed it down to

this determiner, Is it more absurd than abusive? Absurd, not worth it.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

JC:

>Yes, that is it! Hi Deanna, hi Heidi, belonging to a discussion group

>is probably more addictive than gluten, isn't it?!

Well, for us Aspies anyway, information IS addictive, maybe worse

than gluten! Of course often we get paid for said addiction

so few people recognize it as such.

Before the Internet, I used to spend hours and hours in

libraries. My Mom's favorite refrain was: " Heidi, get your

nose out of that book! " .

I like this group mainly because it makes me THINK and

because I learn stuff from folks who know more

than me. OK, and you'all are nice folks too ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>

> JC:

>

> >Yes, that is it! Hi Deanna, hi Heidi, belonging to a discussion

group

> >is probably more addictive than gluten, isn't it?!

>

> Well, for us Aspies anyway, information IS addictive, maybe worse

> than gluten! Of course often we get paid for said addiction

> so few people recognize it as such.

>

> Before the Internet, I used to spend hours and hours in

> libraries. My Mom's favorite refrain was: " Heidi, get your

> nose out of that book! " .

>

> I like this group mainly because it makes me THINK and

> because I learn stuff from folks who know more

> than me. OK, and you'all are nice folks too ...

>

>

> Heidi Jean

Heidi:

I would forward this as an impression: maybe all of us together know

more than you alone do, which would be quite normal. Surely you alone

know more than each of us do alone. If this is not true, then you owe

it to your power of communicating and summing it up. But more

important than all of this: you are very attentive (mindful); you

never miss any question.

By the way, many people on this list share this last quality with

you.

I was going to be very " mean " with you and ask you not to respond to

this post if you disagree. (I need an emoticon here, but don't know

which one.)

José

[Guest guest]

> >>>>>> Robin, it's not anger so much as it is hurt...a kind of,

what did i

> do to deserve THAT??? >>>>>>>>

>

> I'm not saying gluten intolerance is your thing or anyone else's

here but,

> for me, I had absolutely no symptoms from eating wheat (or milk for

that

> matter) except for behavioral and mood type things and I wouldn't

have known

> I had even THOSE symptoms if I hadn't felt what it was like to NOT

have

> those symptoms -- follow?

>

> And because of my terrible personal experience I think that anyone

who has

> ANY sort of odd symptom should ask to be checked for gluten

intolerance. I

> even think they should gene-test all kids of preschool age. It's

such a

> simple little test and can save a LOT of heartache down the road

when it's

> too late to fix. (Not to mention the mood disorders along the

way...)

>

> ~Robin

Hi Robin:

I appreciate your post (Sorry I have cut part of it). But I want to

make a brief remark. will speak for herself anyway, but from

what I have learned about her, she doesn't have gluten in her diet.

Aren't you the one not fond of cooking? Sure she has milk, but

I am almost quite certain about no gluten. Please correct me

urgently if I am wrong, and then forgive me my mistake again.

Cheers,

José

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Robin,

>

>But since I knew I had wheat and milk IgE allergies and no symptoms (so I

>continued to eat them!!) and as a result of Heidi's singing the gluten song

>I went to my doctor a month ago and was within a few weeks confirmed " proven

>celiac disease " (by both blood test and biopsy.) I just got the news day

>before yesterday.

>

OMG - no symptoms and celiac.

>

>

>I think that's why some people (most recently me) on this list keep talking

>about gluten; it's just behind so many ailments and disgestive and mood

>disorders. It's so sneaky. It's hard to think you have a problem with it as

>there are so few real symptoms. I mean I read this list for months and

>months and never thought the gluten issue applied to me. I laughed at the

> " Glutenator " stuff. It was someone else's problem. Now I'm " in it " and can't

>help but think others might be in my same boat. If you find it early enough

>you can stop the damage.

>

Hey, that Glutenator stuff was supposed to be funny, and heck, it

probably took you off edge a bit. But truly what you are describing is

so much like me. I have been pretty low gluten for 5 years, and no

gluten for one or more. So thanks for sharing and please do continue.

All the best to you, Robin. I am sure you will be better off for the

knowledge and treatment. Don't forget, age is a number and biologically

you may be younger. And a positive attitude can sometimes work

miracles. Your gut will heal.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>

> I appreciate your post (Sorry I have cut part of it). But I want to

> make a brief remark. will speak for herself anyway, but from

> what I have learned about her, she doesn't have gluten in her diet.

> Aren't you the one not fond of cooking? Sure she has milk,

but

> I am almost quite certain about no gluten. Please correct me

> urgently if I am wrong, and then forgive me my mistake again.

>

> Cheers,

>

> José

> >

JC, yes, there is gluten in my diet. i just had a piece of irish

soda bread. i soak the oats in kefir for 1-2 days, and i use

sprouted spelt flour, but it has gluten, just the same.

and earlier i had a slice of sourdough spelt bread from whole foods.

i try to keep it low, and it's a lot lower than what i used to

consume, and some days i don't eat any, but i do consume gluten.

i wish i could stop for period, say six months to a year and see if i

feel any diff. but i can never seem to stay off for more than a day

or two.

laura in nj

[Guest guest]

>Heidi:

>

>I would forward this as an impression: maybe all of us together know

>more than you alone do, which would be quite normal. Surely you alone

>know more than each of us do alone. If this is not true, then you owe

>it to your power of communicating and summing it up. But more

>important than all of this: you are very attentive (mindful); you

>never miss any question.

>

>By the way, many people on this list share this last quality with

>you.

>

>I was going to be very " mean " with you and ask you not to respond to

>this post if you disagree. (I need an emoticon here, but don't know

>which one.)

>

>José

Heh heh. I'm not sure what there is to disagree with? I don't know

that I *know* much at all: I'm good at looking stuff up and writing

it down, which is what writers do. Certainly all of us together know

more than any individual: which is exactly why we need groups!

" Consensus " is usually the best way to figure any problem

out: in fact bees use consensus to figure out where to

relocate hives, interestingly enough (all the scouts get

together and dance, and the less-certain bees drop out, the

more-certain bees keep dancing, til they " agree " on the best site.

But in fact I do ignore a lot of posts I disagree with. It's just

that when I'm doing something boring at work, answering

emails is more interesting ... :--) So I promise, next post

of yours I disagree with, I won't answer! :--P

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>I think that's why some people (most recently me) on this list keep talking

>about gluten; it's just behind so many ailments and disgestive and mood

>disorders. It's so sneaky. It's hard to think you have a problem with it as

>there are so few real symptoms.

What Robin said! I know folks get tired of hearing gluten-gluten-gluten

but the problem is: the docs won't test for it unless you ask. I mean,

I know that high blood pressure is a killer too: but I don't talk about

it, because anyone who goes to a doctor for ANYTHING will get

their blood pressure tested. Ditto with diabetes. In a few years

gluten testing will be right up there with blood pressure testing

(it already is in some parts of the world) and we won't talk about it

anymore.

Anyway, statistically 70% of confirmed celiacs have no digestive

problems (and those are the folks with major damage to

the intestines). It's one sneaky disease.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hey, thanks for your sweet words Deanna. Since I've always lived life with a

" take no prisoners " attitude I'm actually quite fine with the new

information now that I've learned what the heck is causing the relentless

exhaustion and other crazy symptoms. Using lots of enzymes, hydrochloric

acid and fermented foods I think I've been able to stave off the usual

effects of malabsorption and so I look and seem better than most " healthy "

people walking down the street. I also do acupuncture at least weekly.

I most definately see a lot of humor and even irony in the whole thing. In

fact I mentioned the Glutenator stuff because it got my attention, a good

thing..

My " role " has always been the healthy energetic one -- the winner -- the

achiever -- and I guess I still feel that way even though it's kind of funny

to be lying on my back most of the time now like a beached salmon.

One very good thing about being athletic and active since childhood is that

even though I haven't been able to keep to my usual regimen of activity, my

body has stayed really toned -- I'm amazed. I'm very strong for my size.

That's why I keep preaching lately about taking it easy in workouts and so

on; It really doesn't take much if you have the regular discipline.

Now, when I have bouts of feeling better I do yoga and am surprised at how

strong I still am, how quickly it comes back. That makes me feel very good

about a healthy future. And then when I'm having an especially not-so-hot

day, I take a half hour walk because exercise, movement, is just so

ingrained in me. I love it and these little walks keep me balanced and are

my gauge for how sick or not sick I am. Besides keeping my blood moving

around, the walks give me the opportunity to breathe deeply and let the

oxygen inform the body that I'm still very much alive and kicking in there.

BTW, I think all that weight bearing exercise over the years probably helped

mitigate the effects of malabsorption of minerals -- we don't talk about it

here much but isn't weight bearing exercise an important part of protecting

and preserving bone mass? I wonder how that works actually; I mean if

flattened villi in the guts act to prohibit absorption of bone building

minerals like calcium and magnesium, why are my bones and muscles in such

good shape still?

~Robin

>>>>>>>>>Hey, that Glutenator stuff was supposed to be funny, and heck, it

probably took you off edge a bit. But truly what you are describing is

so much like me. I have been pretty low gluten for 5 years, and no

gluten for one or more. So thanks for sharing and please do continue.

All the best to you, Robin. I am sure you will be better off for the

knowledge and treatment. Don't forget, age is a number and biologically

you may be younger. And a positive attitude can sometimes work

miracles. Your gut will heal.

Deanna>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

> I mean if

>flattened villi in the guts act to prohibit absorption of bone building

>minerals like calcium and magnesium, why are my bones and muscles in such

>good shape still?

>

>~Robin

I wonder about that a lot myself. I get tetany a lot, and had it for years:

which indicates malabsorption. But my bones test very strong, and my Xrays

are denser than they were. I DO have a lot of weight bearing exercise

and do weights (and gardening, goat-wrassling, etc). I take plenty of

supplements too, and CLO, kimchi, anchovies, pickled salmon etc.

I think an ultra-good diet covers " a multitude of sins " as my Mom

would put it. She has, IMO, major gut issues, but she eats a

rather ideal diet and at 80+ is going strong (no, I haven't convinced

her to be GF but me and my sister have converted her from beer

to cider and she isn't a big bread eater). My grandma lived to 96, and

was really into diet. She was not sure WHY she ate what she did,

but she insisted on green beans and ham with every meal (and ate

goose fat whenever she could get it).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>

> But in fact I do ignore a lot of posts I disagree with. It's just

> that when I'm doing something boring at work, answering

> emails is more interesting ... :--) So I promise, next post

> of yours I disagree with, I won't answer! :--P

>

>

> Heidi Jean

Please do answer, unless you think my post in case is extremely silly

and irrecoverable. Otherwise we waste the chance of improving - on both

sides.

JC

[Guest guest]

(NJ) --

--- laurainnewjersey <laurabusse@...> wrote:

> Robin, it's not anger so much as it is hurt...a kind of, what did i

> do to deserve THAT???

>

> i feel more like an object of other peoples anger...on the road, that

> is. not so much in everyday life.

That's the *exactly* how I have been feeling past couple of days.

Your description of traffic incidents and drivers is so real and I can identify

so

clearly.

A couple of days back, we were returning from a mall during the evening rush hr.

(bad

idea, I know).

There are several miles of farmland near where we live and an abandoned railway

line

passes through it.

I stopped at the railway crossing (as a force of habit, as well as obeying the

laws).

Behind me was a guy wearing expensive clothes driving a VERY expensive cadillac.

He was clearly coming up at a high speed (doing 50+ in a 35 zone).

He got mad that I stopped at the railway crossing, forcing him to reduce speed.

It was a one-lane rd., so he *cut across the yellow line* and passed me on the

WRONG

side.

Can you believe that - just to avoid stopping at a railway crossing (which is

the law

anyway)?

And then, he had the temerity to honk at me.

Another car behind his decided to take the free ride and passed me as well -

from the

wrong side !

They were both headed to the nearby golf course (golf clubs clearly visible on

the back

seat).

And that left me wondering - what did I do to deserve this insult?

I am not mad or anything at them - just stupefied why somebody would want to

behave like

this on the road?

All I can say is - " what can you expect from a bunch of gluten eaters "

(parody on the 18th Century French expression of disgust at the British - " what

can you

expect from a bunch of beef eaters " )

-Pratick

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>

> That's the *exactly* how I have been feeling past couple of days.

> Your description of traffic incidents and drivers is so real and I

can identify so

> clearly.

>

> A couple of days back, we were returning from a mall during the

evening rush hr. (bad

> idea, I know).

>

> There are several miles of farmland near where we live and an

abandoned railway line

> passes through it.

>

> I stopped at the railway crossing (as a force of habit, as well as

obeying the laws).

> Behind me was a guy wearing expensive clothes driving a VERY

expensive cadillac.

> He was clearly coming up at a high speed (doing 50+ in a 35 zone).

>

> He got mad that I stopped at the railway crossing, forcing him to

reduce speed.

> It was a one-lane rd., so he *cut across the yellow line* and

passed me on the WRONG

> side.

> Can you believe that - just to avoid stopping at a railway crossing

(which is the law

> anyway)?

> And then, he had the temerity to honk at me.

>

> Another car behind his decided to take the free ride and passed me

as well - from the

> wrong side !

>

> They were both headed to the nearby golf course (golf clubs clearly

visible on the back

> seat).

>

> And that left me wondering - what did I do to deserve this insult?

>

> I am not mad or anything at them - just stupefied why somebody

would want to behave like

> this on the road?

>

> All I can say is - " what can you expect from a bunch of gluten

eaters "

> (parody on the 18th Century French expression of disgust at the

British - " what can you

> expect from a bunch of beef eaters " )

>

> -Pratick

Pratick, EXACTLY, that sort of thing happens around here ALL THE

TIME. your story reminded me of the time i was making a right turn

onto a 2 lane (2 lanes each way) highway. we have a 'right on red'

law here. the light was red. i stopped to look if any traffic was

coming from the left. as i stopped, some a______ honked at me and

went right around me...like stopping at the red light, required by

law, for one second was too long. my jaw dropped; i couldn't believe

it.

like i said, this sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME. lots of people

on the road who shouldn't be. makes me wonder what they're 'on'.

laura in nj

[Guest guest]

At 12:15 AM 6/20/2005, you wrote:

>Please do answer, unless you think my post in case is extremely silly

>and irrecoverable. Otherwise we waste the chance of improving - on both

>sides.

>

>JC

Actually I was being silly ... it's a logical conundrum which I think

you were making too. If a person doesn't answer it

could be because the disagree or because they agree.

Kind of like the conundrum: " If you don't get this message

please send me a note " .

Otherwise I try to contribute when I think I have something

logical to add: whether I agree or otherwise. As do most

of the folks here, I think! Most of the things we talk

about here I don't " know " , but the talk makes me

curious so I start researching it, which is basically just fun.

So I'm not actually " arguing a point " just trying to figure

it out, though it may come across more argumentative

than I intend.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi:

Are we having Logics for dinner?

" I was going to be very " mean " with you and ask you not to respond to

this post if you disagree. (I need an emoticon here, but don't know

which one.) "

I don't know what a conundrum is. Well, maybe I know: a riddle?

But that was not what I aimed at.

I said something about you. Two possibilities: a) you agree or you

disagree (agreeing in part is like disagreeing).

I wouldn't expect you to agree, however. So was more probable to

happen.

When someone disagrees, they generally want to argue/expose their

different point of view. When they agree, in general there is hardly

any need to say anything else, beyond formalities: Yes or thanks. Or,

less often, be silent.

So I was in fact asking you to make a sacrifice (I was being mean):

asking you to be silent when in truth you would want to speak up

against what I had said.

The hidden agenda was to make your induced silence signal your

agreement with me and thus validate my praise, for in that case

(agreeing with me), as was said above, you would have nothing to add.

I think that was a paradox rather than a conundrum. Sorry for all the

sinuosity.

José

> >Please do answer, unless you think my post in case is extremely

silly

> >and irrecoverable. Otherwise we waste the chance of improving - on

both

> >sides.

> >

> >JC

>

> Actually I was being silly ... it's a logical conundrum which I

think

> you were making too. If a person doesn't answer it

> could be because the disagree or because they agree.

> Kind of like the conundrum: " If you don't get this message

> please send me a note " .

>

> Otherwise I try to contribute when I think I have something

> logical to add: whether I agree or otherwise. As do most

> of the folks here, I think! Most of the things we talk

> about here I don't " know " , but the talk makes me

> curious so I start researching it, which is basically just fun.

> So I'm not actually " arguing a point " just trying to figure

> it out, though it may come across more argumentative

> than I intend.

>

>

> Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

:

>When someone disagrees, they generally want to argue/expose their

>different point of view. When they agree, in general there is hardly

>any need to say anything else, beyond formalities: Yes or thanks. Or,

>less often, be silent.

Ah. Maybe that's a " guy thing " . Gals seem to more often

be quiet if they disagree, rather than want to cause

a confrontation. I only disagree with people if I know them pretty

well (and like them). Otherwise I tend to do the noncommittal

" That's interesting! " . On a list though, I try to keep my bandwidth

down (really! You wouldn't know it from the amount I type,

but you should see the pile of stuff I DON'T type).

>So I was in fact asking you to make a sacrifice (I was being mean):

>asking you to be silent when in truth you would want to speak up

>against what I had said.

>

>The hidden agenda was to make your induced silence signal your

>agreement with me and thus validate my praise, for in that case

>(agreeing with me), as was said above, you would have nothing to add.

>

>I think that was a paradox rather than a conundrum. Sorry for all the

>sinuosity.

Paradox is maybe a better word. I'm not sure the exact

definition of conundrum. Nice sinuous paradox! :--)

Heidi Jean