Re: Fermenting honey water with kefir grains

[Guest guest]

At 02:16 PM 5/24/05 -0700, you wrote:

>Greetings,

>

>In the spirit of experimentation, I made a solution by dissolving a few

tbsp. of honey in

>water and dropping a few kefir grains into it.

>I covered the jar and have left it for fermentation in a cool place, away

from sunlight.

>

>My question - is something worthwhile going to come out of this, or was

this a waste of

>time (and expensive raw honey)?

If it tastes good, it's never a waste. Plus you still probably have at

least ONE more good bug in that honey water, so all's fair.

>Also, I used regular milk kefir grains (washed them with water).

>Will they be able to ferment the honey water?

>

>Finally, are water kefir grains a different animal or just regular milk

kefir grains

>dropped into a water source?

I've been making coconut water kefir for months with what were originally

milk kefir grains - did the same as you the first time, rinsed them off,

then plunked them into the coconut water. Based on the fizz factor of

the coconut water kefir, they ain't dead yet, and seem to be doing their

job. I've been told by people on this list that I can use a milk grain

for 6 months in water/juice before it dies - and that if I don't leave it

until the last possible minute, I can still rejuvenate them by popping them

into milk for a while.

Purists might disagree with my assessment, but hey, it's working. Play

with it.

MFJ

Ideas are funny that way ... you go and let one loose, and suddenly it's

crashing about the place, bashing up against other peoples' heads.

Somebody oughtta control that. Pesky things, ideas.

[Guest guest]

At 02:16 PM 5/24/2005, you wrote:

>My question - is something worthwhile going to come out of this, or was this a

waste of

>time (and expensive raw honey)?

Fermented honey-water makes a delicious drink: mead!

My experience with it is that it took a LONG time to

ferment, and still tasted sweet. Whether that is a good

thing or not depends on the drinker! There was some argument

over whether this is because the sugars in honey just take

a long time to ferment, they lack nutrients, or there are

anti-fermentative ingredients in honey. I don't know.

As to is it a waste: NEVER! Even if it tastes lousy (which

I doubt highly!) it's still a good experiment!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Pratick

>How long did it take - days, weeks, months?

I had one mead going for a year, it never did ferment

dry. It was discussed in the Fermenting group, and the

consensus is it ferments faster if you add other stuff.

>This is the first time I have transferred the milk kefir grains into a sugar

water

>source, so I think I should account for an additional few days, right?

Yep, it goes faster the next few batches (at least mine do ... I leave

the " dregs " though, which are full of yeasties.

>I would like to ferment it more than usual to reduce the sugars.

>

>I have another jar of your kefir beer fermenting besides the honey - will let

you know

>how that turns out !

Please do!

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi Jean

I have some local raw honey that doesn't taste very good. It has a

strong smoke flavor that I can't get passed. I think it's strongly

flavored besides the smoke too, but it's hard to tell... Do you think

I could use it to make mead, or would it still taste smokey?

Any other suggestions for hiding the off flavor?

Thanks!

Jan

[Guest guest]

Pratick

>--- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

>> I had one mead going for a year, it never did ferment

>> dry. It was discussed in the Fermenting group, and the

>> consensus is it ferments faster if you add other stuff.

>

>OMG ! I don't think I want to wait a YEAR to drink 250 ml of mead )

>

>What other stuff should be added?

>Like maybe lime juice or raisins?

The online recipes call for " yeast nutrient " and a little

citric acid. It's best when making wine (or any ferment IMO)

to use something acidic ... makes the ferment go well.

Dead yeast makes a great yeast nutrient, I've heard,

which is one reason I leave the " dregs " and use them for

the next batch. I think it is minerals the yeast need?

You could make a yeast " starter " ... ferment the kefir grains

in something easy to ferment, like that brown cloudy apple cider

(the clouds are pectin etc. which help feed the yeast!).

http://davespicks.com/writing/mme/nutrient.html

Mead Made Easy: Yeast Nutrient

<http://davespicks.com/writing/mme/contents.html>Table of Contents

<http://davespicks.com/writing/mme/yeast.html>Previous

<http://davespicks.com/writing/mme/recipes/index.html>Next

There are two different kinds of yeast nutrient available. They are yeast hulls

(also known as `ghosts') and di-ammonium phosphate (usually just called `yeast

nutrient'--this is the easiest to find). Some people say that the yeast hulls

make for better meads more quickly, since you don't have to wait for the

chemical taste from the phosphates to wane. My opinion is that both are usable,

but the yeast-hulls leave you more margin for error. If you put in too many

hulls, you'll just have a larger layer of sediment to deal with. If you put in

too much phosphate, you'll have a chemical taste that'll take a while to fade.

In older times, egg white was also used as a yeast nutrient, but given the

problems with salmonella in eggs nowadays, I'd recommend against using this

method. That said, to use 'em, you basically just whip up an egg white until

you've got something resembling meringue, break that up into little bits, and

toss it into the must. If more than roughly a third of your fermentable sugars

are coming from fruit or barley malt, you won't need to worry about yeast

nutrients, since these ingredients contain the things yeast will need.

>

>BTW, how long should kefir beer take to ferment?

>I have about 250 ml in a bottle (first batch) with about 2 tablespns. of milk

kefir

>grains.

>It's been 2 days so far and the taste hasn't changed yet.

>Is there any visual indication that it is fermenting?

>I don't see any bubbling or fizz yet.

My cider is usually bubbling after 2 days, which is

as long as I let it go for young'uns. My beer is pretty

" beery " after a week.

>

Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Jan:

>I have some local raw honey that doesn't taste very good. It has a

>strong smoke flavor that I can't get passed. I think it's strongly

>flavored besides the smoke too, but it's hard to tell... Do you think

>I could use it to make mead, or would it still taste smokey?

>Any other suggestions for hiding the off flavor?

>Thanks!

I'd guess the taste of the honey will go into the wine.

Winemaking doesn't hide flavors ... in fact, if you are

using fruit and even a few fruit are moldy, it ruins the

whole batch. Course I LIKE smoke flavor (and Lapsong Souchang

tea!) so that doesn't strike me as a downside!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi --

> Dead yeast makes a great yeast nutrient, I've heard,

> which is one reason I leave the " dregs " and use them for

> the next batch. I think it is minerals the yeast need?

> You could make a yeast " starter " ... ferment the kefir grains

> in something easy to ferment, like that brown cloudy apple cider

> (the clouds are pectin etc. which help feed the yeast!).

I added " brewer's yeast " - a brown powder I got from the grocery store.

I couldn't find the yeast hulls that the online receipe calls for.

But I think I may have screwed-up the mead.

It now smells pretty bad, and I don't know if the right kind of fermentation is

going on,

or the wrong kind.

I also added some lime juice.

Do you think the yeast might have spoilt it?

The kefir beer, thankfully, seems to be ok - I didn't add any yeast to it, just

some lime

juice.

-Pratick

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> I added " brewer's yeast " - a brown powder I got from the grocery store.

> I couldn't find the yeast hulls that the online receipe calls for.

>

> But I think I may have screwed-up the mead.

> It now smells pretty bad, and I don't know if the right kind of

fermentation is going on,

> or the wrong kind.

Pratick,

you're stuffed. Or, the mead is. Brewer's yeast is deactivated yeast

used for nutrition and what you need is active yeast used for baking

or winemaking.

B.

[Guest guest]

> So is throwing out the so-called mead now the best thing?

> Or can it be salvaged in any way?

>

> Too bad.

Pratick,

If y'all don't like how it tastes, water the plants with it. Make an

offering!

B.

[Guest guest]

>I added " brewer's yeast " - a brown powder I got from the grocery store.

>I couldn't find the yeast hulls that the online receipe calls for.

>

>But I think I may have screwed-up the mead.

>It now smells pretty bad, and I don't know if the right kind of fermentation is

going on,

>or the wrong kind.

>I also added some lime juice.

>

>Do you think the yeast might have spoilt it?

>

>The kefir beer, thankfully, seems to be ok - I didn't add any yeast to it, just

some lime

>juice.

>

>-Pratick

Brewer's yeast is NASTY stuff! It's the " dregs " from some batch of

commercial beer, and tastes horrid. Well, the dregs from MY

beer might taste horrid too, if I dried them and ate them. But

technically it should be what the mead would need ... unless

it has preservatives in it, I don't think it would ruin the

batch except taste wise.

If you use the dregs from your kefir beer, that should

be a decent nutrient for the mead. Or a bit of molasses?

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi --

> Brewer's yeast is NASTY stuff! It's the " dregs " from some batch of

> commercial beer, and tastes horrid. Well, the dregs from MY

> beer might taste horrid too, if I dried them and ate them. But

> technically it should be what the mead would need ... unless

> it has preservatives in it, I don't think it would ruin the

> batch except taste wise.

>

> If you use the dregs from your kefir beer, that should

> be a decent nutrient for the mead. Or a bit of molasses?

The kefir beer is going great guns, thanks to you.

The second batch turned out much better than the first (maybe the grains are

adjusting

better now).

I got third-party " confirmation " from a neighbour that it tastes similar to beer

( " near-beer " ?)

Couple of questions -

1. I don't see the kind of dregs you mention.

It is all clear liquid.

Does it take a few batches to form, or should they be there right from the first

batch?

I don't add anything to the apple juice other than half a slice of lime (no

hops, yeast

or anything else).

2. How many batches can the kefir grains ferment before they have to be replaced

by fresh

milk grains?

Already in my third batch, they are all shrivelled up.

Thanks for all your help.

I'll try the mead again later, in the meantime, I am enjoying the kefir beer.

-Pratick

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>I got third-party " confirmation " from a neighbour that it tastes similar to

beer

>( " near-beer " ?)

It is even closer to beer if you use hops and let it ferment longer!

>Couple of questions -

>

>1. I don't see the kind of dregs you mention.

>It is all clear liquid.

>Does it take a few batches to form, or should they be there right from the

first batch?

I don't know how long it takes to form, actually. Maybe more than one batch.

The longer it ferments the more it " settles " .. in " real beer " and wine

it settles so long that the part you drink goes absolutely clear.

However, just leave a bit of the last batch on the bottom as a starter.

Eventually you will have dregs.

I might get more dregs because I use unfiltered apple juice. But this batch

has been going many months too (I change the " top " part every couple

of weeks, but leave around 1-3 cups liquid in the container each time).

>2. How many batches can the kefir grains ferment before they have to be

replaced by fresh

>milk grains?

>Already in my third batch, they are all shrivelled up.

They do shrivel. I don't know how long they *can* go

for. I add new ones when I have extra grains. Technically

the " dregs " are enough to start the new batch, but I

think the grains house some of the good bacteria that

might not survive otherwise. Based on my feelings,

not on any factoids. I have had the grains finally

disintegrate, but that was with a batch that turned

very alcoholic.

>Thanks for all your help.

>

>I'll try the mead again later, in the meantime, I am enjoying the kefir beer.

Yah, it's hard to beat kefir beer ... thanks for the feedback!

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi --

> I don't know how long it takes to form, actually. Maybe more than one batch.

> The longer it ferments the more it " settles " .. in " real beer " and wine

> it settles so long that the part you drink goes absolutely clear.

> However, just leave a bit of the last batch on the bottom as a starter.

> Eventually you will have dregs.

I am begining to see a cloudy sediment at the bottom of the jars.

Could this be the dregs that you mentioned?

When I drank the liquid part of the beer and the cloudy sediment was left, I

tried to

dilute it with water and drink it, but it tastes horrible.

Maybe like the brewer's yeast that I had bought !

-Pratick

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>I am begining to see a cloudy sediment at the bottom of the jars.

>Could this be the dregs that you mentioned?

>When I drank the liquid part of the beer and the cloudy sediment was left, I

tried to

>dilute it with water and drink it, but it tastes horrible.

>Maybe like the brewer's yeast that I had bought !

>

>-Pratick

Yep, that would be the dregs! I don't actually drink it

myself: I leave it in the bottom of the jar for the next batch of

yeast to feed off (and it's a yeast starter too).

Heidi Jean