Re: chondroitin (was: The Naked Warrior: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)

[Guest guest]

>>> Idol wrote:

>>> I'm not sure what the best chondroitin supplement is.

Dr. (http://www.wrightnewsletter.com ), a well known

" alternative " MD

(he runs the www.tahoma-clinic.com in WA) , says this about chondroitin, in

an article he wrote about coping with arthritis:

" ...there are enough questions about chondroitin and risk of prostate cancer

for me to advise all men to avoid chondroitin at this time. Besides, I've

observed that glucosamine usually works just as well by itself. So just use

" plain " glucosamine until this question is settled for good. "

I've seen other sources that suggest the HCL form of glucosamine is superior

to the sulfate form, for stability and metabolic reasons I won't even

pretend to understand. See this, for example, for an explanation:

http://www.nutrasense.com/gluchclvssul.html

I've personally been happiest using a glucosamine and MSM combination, but

my purpose for using it might have been different than yours. If your aim

is more inflammation-reduction than joint healing / protection, I'd suggest

trying one of the enzyme formulas, like Wobenzym.

[Guest guest]

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> " ...there are enough questions about chondroitin and risk of prostate cancer

>for me to advise all men to avoid chondroitin at this time. Besides, I've

>observed that glucosamine usually works just as well by itself. So just use

> " plain " glucosamine until this question is settled for good. "

I have some respect for Dr. , but I'm not so sure about the alleged

dangers of chondroitin sulfate. Furthermore, I've never found glucosamine

sulfate to be particularly effective, whereas I've gotten profound benefits

from chondroitin sulfate.

Here's a blurb on the supposed dangers from

http://www.malecare.com/new_page_26.htm

>>Patients often use chondroitin sulfate in combination with glucosamine to

>>relieve osteoarthritis symptoms. Unfortunately, chondroitin sulfate also

>>appears to play such a major role in cancer biology that using it may be

>>risky.

>>

>>The cartilage that lines your joints incorporates a group of proteins

>>that contain chondroitin sulfate. When the joint is damaged (as it is in

>>osteoarthritis), the joint cartilage responds by producing an array of

>>chondroitin-containing proteins in a futile attempt to heal. The general

>>consensus suggests that oral chondroitin sulfate enhances the

>>effectiveness of these proteins, improving joint function and relieving

>>pain. One of the proteins produced in the arthritic joint is the

>>chondroitin binding protein versican.

>>

>>You can find versican on the surface of a wide range of cancer cell

>>types. In general, the greater the amount of chondroitin-containing

>>versican bound to the cancer cell, the more likely it is that the cancer

>>cell will be able to spread widely throughout the body. There is

>>sufficient documentation of this effect of versican for prostate cancer,

>>melanoma, some brain tumors, and a range of other cancers. For example,

>>the amount of chondroitin sulfate found associated with prostate cancer

>>in radical prostatectomy specimens correlates with the risk of recurrent

>>disease.

>>

>>Versican is not the only chondroitin sulfate-containing protein found on

>>prostate cancer cells. TNB2 is a chondroitin sulfate-containing protein

>>whose appearance is associated with the development of

>>hormone-independent prostate cancer. It's also more likely to be found in

>>prostate cancers with Gleason grades 8-10 rather than in low Gleason

>>grade tumors that normally have a good prognosis.

>>

>>Chondroitinases are proteins that cleave chondroitin sulfate from

>>proteins like versican. In animal experiments, chondroitinase treatments

>>slow the progression of cancer, leading to the suggestion that

>>chondroitin-containing proteins on the surface of cancer cells are a

>>useful therapeutic target.

>>

>>All of this science suggests that taking the sufficient amount of

>>chondroitin sulfate to protect the cartilage lining of your joints might

>>also foster prostate cancer progression, as well as the growth of other

>>malignancies. I recommend you avoid chondroitin sulfate until clinical

>>trials can demonstrate its safety.

>>

>>Alternatively, I recommend glucosamine, because there is no evidence that

>>glucosamine fosters the progression of prostate cancer. Furthermore, a

>>randomized controlled clinical trial shows that glucosamine preserves the

>>thickness of joint cartilage, thus slowing the progression of

>>osteoarthritis. In this trial, they used daily glucosamine sulfate doses

>>of 1,500 mg over a three-year period.

It's worth pointing out that the " danger " is entirely guessed-at: because

the body's manufacture of chondroitin-containing proteins sometimes seems

related to cancer growth, don't eat it. But since it's naturally part of

the body, and people would naturally have eaten it, I find it somewhat hard

to believe that it's so dangerous. Also, I once read (though I don't have

refs handy) that prostate cancer is very strongly related to the number of

sexual partners a man has had over the course of his life, which would seem

to argue against chondroitin sulfate being a primary cause. I'd also like

to see some absolute risk numbers. It sounds to me like the usual relative

risk scaremongering, probably fostered by drug companies desperate to sell

more-harmful cox-2 inhibitors and the like.

That said, I certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone with actual prostate

problems take it.

>I've personally been happiest using a glucosamine and MSM combination, but

>my purpose for using it might have been different than yours. If your aim

>is more inflammation-reduction than joint healing / protection, I'd suggest

>trying one of the enzyme formulas, like Wobenzym.

No, my aim is definitely joint healing/protection. It is interesting that

glucosamine hydrochloride is supposed to be more pure and stable as well as

cheaper, though, so maybe I'll try that. Perhaps in the past the

glucosamine sulfate I tried had simply degraded too much to be of use.

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[Guest guest]

> Here's a blurb on the supposed dangers from

> http://www.malecare.com/new_page_26.htm

>

>>>Patients often use chondroitin sulfate in combination with glucosamine to

>>>relieve osteoarthritis symptoms. Unfortunately, chondroitin sulfate also

>>>appears to play such a major role in cancer biology that using it may be

>>>risky.

>>>Alternatively, I recommend glucosamine, because there is no evidence that

>>>glucosamine fosters the progression of prostate cancer. Furthermore, a

>>>randomized controlled clinical trial shows that glucosamine preserves the

>>>thickness of joint cartilage, thus slowing the progression of

>>>osteoarthritis. In this trial, they used daily glucosamine sulfate doses

>>>of 1,500 mg over a three-year period.

> -

Glucosamine has come up before and all I had was 3 people on a list with 3

different blood sugar issues from it. This alt medicine article

http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/arthritis/a/Glucosamine.htm seems to be

free of " biostitutes " corporate determined biological study result, as Bobby

Kennedy Jr. calls them.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

Wanita-

>Glucosamine has come up before and all I had was 3 people on a list with 3

>different blood sugar issues from it. This alt medicine article

>http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/arthritis/a/Glucosamine.htm seems to be

>free of " biostitutes " corporate determined biological study result, as Bobby

>Kennedy Jr. calls them.

Ahh! Good catch! I know I've read about problems with glucosamine, but

(believe it or not) I couldn't remember what they were, because it's been

years since I looked into it. So maybe both are potentially harmful, but

I'll take a possible small increase in risk of prostate cancer years down

the road (which may be meaningless for people eating and living right if it

even exists anyway) over immediate problems with blood sugar regulation any

day of the week.

Thanks!

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