Re: dreaming and remembering

[Guest guest]

I've read that an inability to remember dreams is a result of B6 deficiency.

I like dreaming. It is always so weird. I love the way different

things are pieced together but don't belong, but it seems so natural

in a dream. For example, I might be in what I *know* in the dream is

my grandmother's house, but visually is an old college classroom. Or

I will have all the thoughts, fears, and feelings associated with one

person, and their name, all attached to the body of a different

person, or someone I don't know. Also, whenever I have them they have

such relevance to my life, often metaphorically. This is very

interesting because sometimes the metaphors are, on the one hand, very

obvious on the surface in their meaning, but on the other hand, seem

beyond my own creativity, especially my unconscious creativity.

So that gives the question: if the dreams have metaphorical

significance and aren't just random bits of sensory information pegged

together, then that implies creativity. But if I'm not conscious, WHO

is creating it???

Chris

[Guest guest]

> the really happy or healthy person would never

>or only very seldom remember what he dreamt the night before or if he

>dreamt at all. Does anyone have any clues about this?

>JC

Only about tbout the illusory nature of happiness. Here is one of my

favorite quotes. It's by Abd-Er Rahman III, a 10th century Muslim governor

of Spain. He says:

" I have now reigned about fifty years in victory or peace. Riches and

honors, power and pleasure, have waited on my call. I have diligently

numbered the days of pure and genuine happiness which have fallen to my lot.

They amount to fourteen. "

~Robin

[Guest guest]

>I like dreaming. It is always so weird. I love the way different

>things are pieced together but don't belong, but it seems so natural

>in a dream. For example, I might be in what I *know* in the dream is

>my grandmother's house, but visually is an old college classroom. Or

>I will have all the thoughts, fears, and feelings associated with one

>person, and their name, all attached to the body of a different

>person, or someone I don't know. Also, whenever I have them they have

>such relevance to my life, often metaphorically. This is very

>interesting because sometimes the metaphors are, on the one hand, very

>obvious on the surface in their meaning, but on the other hand, seem

>beyond my own creativity, especially my unconscious creativity.

>So that gives the question: if the dreams have metaphorical

>significance and aren't just random bits of sensory information pegged

>together, then that implies creativity. But if I'm not conscious, WHO

>is creating it???

>Chris

I've always dreamed a lot - and had a lot of vivid nightmares as a child. I

even walked and (still) talk in my sleep. Since I learned a few weeks ago

that I can NEVER again eat cake or have a sip of beer (it still blows my

mind) I've been having these incredible yummy dreams of eating fabulous

moist pieces of cake and really tasting and smelling it. Only later in the

dream I become anxious because I realize that I screwed up and wasn't

supposed to eat anything with wheat flour. But the anxiety is short-lived

because I soon dream that I am in a dream and it's all make-believe and so I

just go back to enjoying the cake. I wake up happy and sated. Talk about a

diet!

I read Castenada " The Fire From Within " a few times years ago and

practiced a lot of what he talks about in the book. I'm not sure if that

helped me to do this - maybe it's quite common. He says in order to gain

control of your dreams and harness that spirit talks about, you start

by just concentrating on one thing before going to bed at night. He uses the

example of raising your arm: Sometime in the middle of the night if you're

in a dream you try with all your might and heart and soul (it's intense!) to

lift that arm ever so slightly. I tried it and succeeded a few times. I

never went further but of course Senor Castenada does some amazing things.

The arm was enough for me..

~Robin

[Guest guest]

> > the really happy or healthy person would never

> >or only very seldom remember what he dreamt the night before or if

he

> >dreamt at all. Does anyone have any clues about this?

>

> >JC

>

>

>

> Only about tbout the illusory nature of happiness. Here is one of my

> favorite quotes. It's by Abd-Er Rahman III, a 10th century Muslim

governor

> of Spain. He says:

>

>

>

> " I have now reigned about fifty years in victory or peace. Riches

and

> honors, power and pleasure, have waited on my call. I have

diligently

> numbered the days of pure and genuine happiness which have fallen

to my lot.

> They amount to fourteen. "

>

>

>

> ~Robin

Good morning, Robin:

I wonder why " fourteen " . Is fourteen a cabalistic number, by the way?

Anyway, this brings me back to religion. I hope Gene won't mind. Let

me assure him that this is no proselytism, no vain philosophy, but of

course it seems to be off-topic. In fact, it is ... well I don't know

how to say it in English. We say in Portuguese: one thing (topic)

leads into another, as in a chain. So... it is rather the

concatenation of ideas - something we have to put up with - now and

then - when we belong to a group.

But I am going to be short. One of my main difficulties with religion

is eternal bliss, in Heavens or wherever. It just doesn't come into

my head the idea of being happy all the time, for ever. This could

well be a gap in my religious education. Maybe Heaven is not really a

place, but a condition, something more or less like Nirvana.

By the way, where is ? I think she was going to tell us about

the religion of the Aborigenes. I think it has to do with dreaming.

Sorry, I was losing the thread again. I was talking about eternal

bliss, wasn't I? So here is a short poem that says how I feel about

it. It was written by Drummond de Andrade. I have made the

translation into English myself.

..............................................

SADNESS IN HEAVEN

In heaven,too, there is a melancholic hour,

A difficult hour, when doubt pierces the souls.

" Why did I make the world? " God asks himself

And then He answers himself: " I don't know. "

The angels frown at Him,

And plumes fall.

All the hypotheses - Grace, Eternity, Love fall,

They are like plumes.

Another plume, Heaven melts away.

Silently. No crash betrays

The moment between All and Nothing

Or in other words, the sorrow of God.

......................................

Well, this is a very sad poem, indeed. I will leave you on this sad

note, Robin. Hope I can bring more fun next time around.

José

[Guest guest]

> >I like dreaming.

* CHRIS: Maybe it is not only a question of " liking " it. I think you

actually need it.

It is always so weird. I love the way different

> >things are pieced together but don't belong, but it seems so

natural

> >in a dream. For example, I might be in what I *know* in the dream

is

> >my grandmother's house, but visually is an old college classroom.

Or

> >I will have all the thoughts, fears, and feelings associated with

one

> >person, and their name, all attached to the body of a different

> >person, or someone I don't know. Also, whenever I have them they

have

> >such relevance to my life, often metaphorically. This is very

> >interesting because sometimes the metaphors are, on the one hand,

very

> >obvious on the surface in their meaning, but on the other hand,

seem

> >beyond my own creativity, especially my unconscious creativity.

* Creativity, what is it all about? It is not the same thing as

intelligence. I know many intelligent people who aren't very

creative, and creative people who don't understand things easily. As

I have grown old, I don't think I have become more intelligent or

creative, but my sense of humour has certainly increased. And my

impatience, too.

> >So that gives the question: if the dreams have metaphorical

> >significance and aren't just random bits of sensory information

pegged

> >together, then that implies creativity. But if I'm not conscious,

WHO

> >is creating it???

>

> >Chris

* For me, dreaming is the only way of talking to the dead, namely

asking them questions, that's like me, you know. Maybe praying, too,

serves the same purpose? Later, when I am dead, dreaming may be the

only way for me to talk to the living.

* But wait a minute. I think I can see Gene " looking at me

disapprovingly " because of the words I have just uttered. Maybe it is

better for me to hide now...

JC [more below...]

>

> I've always dreamed a lot - and had a lot of vivid nightmares as a

child. I

> even walked and (still) talk in my sleep. Since I learned a few

weeks ago

> that I can NEVER again eat cake or have a sip of beer (it still

blows my

> mind) I've been having these incredible yummy dreams of eating

fabulous

> moist pieces of cake and really tasting and smelling it. Only later

in the

> dream I become anxious because I realize that I screwed up and

wasn't

> supposed to eat anything with wheat flour. But the anxiety is short-

lived

> because I soon dream that I am in a dream and it's all make-believe

and so I

> just go back to enjoying the cake. I wake up happy and sated. Talk

about a

> diet!

>

* ROBIN: In another group I belonged to, there was a man who

abstained from eating wheat (may be also from other grains, but I

don't remember now). He said he often dreamt about eating pasta, a

kind of torture, you know. Then I told him to try Japanese noodles,

since they are made of rice flour. But he didn't approve of my

suggestion. I think he thought I was making fun of him, which I was

not. I think he would rather go on with his dreaming than trying

anything else.

> I read Castenada " The Fire From Within " a few times years

ago and

> practiced a lot of what he talks about in the book. I'm not sure

if that

> helped me to do this - maybe it's quite common. He says in order to

gain

> control of your dreams and harness that spirit talks about,

you start

> by just concentrating on one thing before going to bed at night. He

uses the

> example of raising your arm: Sometime in the middle of the night if

you're

> in a dream you try with all your might and heart and soul (it's

intense!) to

> lift that arm ever so slightly. I tried it and succeeded a few

times. I

> never went further but of course Senor Castenada does some amazing

things.

> The arm was enough for me..

>

> ~Robin

* Is Catañeda still alive? By the way, I heard that this man was a

Brazilian. He was very famous and very much quoted here in the

seventies and eighties, but then people stopped talking about him. I

think there was a rumour that he could be a charlatan, after all.

Cheers,

JC

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/05, José- s Barbosa <jcmbarbosa52@...> wrote:

> * ROBIN: In another group I belonged to, there was a man who

> abstained from eating wheat (may be also from other grains, but I

> don't remember now). He said he often dreamt about eating pasta, a

> kind of torture, you know. Then I told him to try Japanese noodles,

> since they are made of rice flour. But he didn't approve of my

> suggestion. I think he thought I was making fun of him, which I was

> not. I think he would rather go on with his dreaming than trying

> anything else.

I guess that's like telling a heroin addict to just take up smoking cigarettes.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/05, Robin Reese <robin.reese@...> wrote:

> I read Castenada " The Fire From Within " a few times years ago and

> practiced a lot of what he talks about in the book. I'm not sure if that

> helped me to do this - maybe it's quite common. He says in order to gain

> control of your dreams and harness that spirit talks about, you start

> by just concentrating on one thing before going to bed at night. He uses

> the example of raising your arm: Sometime in the middle of the night if you're

> in a dream you try with all your might and heart and soul (it's intense!)

> to lift that arm ever so slightly. I tried it and succeeded a few times. I

> never went further but of course Senor Castenada does some amazing things.

> The arm was enough for me..

Wow, I think you're the first person I've met who read beyond the

second book, _A Separate Reality_. The arm thing never worked for me.

Although I did once *dream* that I was " dreaming " with my mother.

There was some thread with some comments about a constant internal

chatter that recently reminded me about " not-thinking " from _Journey

to Ixtlan_, I think in the conveying something through music thread.

I read those books many, many years ago.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> > * ROBIN: In another group I belonged to, there was a man who

> > abstained from eating wheat (may be also from other grains, but I

> > don't remember now). He said he often dreamt about eating pasta, a

> > kind of torture, you know. Then I told him to try Japanese noodles,

> > since they are made of rice flour. But he didn't approve of my

> > suggestion. I think he thought I was making fun of him, which I was

> > not. I think he would rather go on with his dreaming than trying

> > anything else.

>

> I guess that's like telling a heroin addict to just take up smoking

cigarettes.

>

> Chris

Oh, I am amazed. Do you mean that I may have offended him? I

thought that he had an issue with gluten. As far as I knew, rice was

free from gluten. So I thought it would be all right for him to eat the

rice noodles.

But now I see: I think my mistake was trying to act as a wise guy. I

was telling him to do something that he certainly knew wouldn't work

for him. You know, people eschewing wheat will in most cases eschew

other grains, too.

Oh, now it is too late, but I should have known better than to offer

people " safer " alternatives when they are not looking for them. I

thought that his dreams about eating pasta were revealing a strong

desire that had to be fulfilled, but maybe dreaming about pasta was

enough for him.

Thanks for your input, Chris.

JC

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>Since I learned a few weeks ago

>that I can NEVER again eat cake

Have you considered trying cakes made with almond flour? They can be

exquisite.

-

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/05, José- s Barbosa <jcmbarbosa52@...> wrote:

> > I guess that's like telling a heroin addict to just take up smoking

> cigarettes.

> Oh, I am amazed. Do you mean that I may have offended him?

Actually I was sort of kidding. Only, it is like that, because

gluten-intolerant folks can develop powerful addictions to the opioid

byproducts of wheat gluten. Rice noodles would not satisfy the

addiction, although they might relieve some stress by providing a sort

of fake alternative.

By the way, this reminds me: when I quit smoking conventional American

ciagrettes (Marlboros), which are powerfully physically addictive

UNLIKE natural, additive-free air-cured cigarettes (such as American

Spirits), I had constant dreams of smoking. But they were not just

smoking a cigarettes. I was bathing in smoke, immersed in it. It was

luxurious and fantasy-like, breathing in nothing but smoke, and being

fully enveloped in it.

I am suddenly reminded of the movie Patch , where a dying woman

was supplied with the realization of her life-long fantasy of swimming

in a swimming pool full of spaghetti.

Anyway, I don't think you did anything offensive.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> > > I guess that's like telling a heroin addict to just take up

smoking

> > cigarettes.

>

> > Oh, I am amazed. Do you mean that I may have offended him?

>

> Actually I was sort of kidding.

* with my left ear, I thought that you might as well be sort

of kidding. Anyway, I am more relieved now.

Only, it is like that, because

> gluten-intolerant folks can develop powerful addictions to the

opioid

> byproducts of wheat gluten. Rice noodles would not satisfy the

> addiction, although they might relieve some stress by providing a

sort

> of fake alternative.

>

> By the way, this reminds me: when I quit smoking conventional

American

> ciagrettes (Marlboros), which are powerfully physically addictive

> UNLIKE natural, additive-free air-cured cigarettes (such as American

> Spirits), I had constant dreams of smoking. But they were not just

> smoking a cigarettes. I was bathing in smoke, immersed in it. It

was

> luxurious and fantasy-like, breathing in nothing but smoke, and

being

> fully enveloped in it.

* This is interesting, full of symbols. Could the smoke maybe

represent your soul? Or your desire to evaporate as well? (Half

kidding, you know.)

>

> I am suddenly reminded of the movie Patch , where a dying woman

> was supplied with the realization of her life-long fantasy of

swimming

> in a swimming pool full of spaghetti.

* Oh you really did make me laugh now. I haven't seen that film, but

it reminded me of Fellini, you know. Only Fellini is capable of such

surrealistic scenes, isn't he?

>

> Anyway, I don't think you did anything offensive.

>

> Chris

* Oh thank you.

JC

[Guest guest]

On 7/19/05, José- s Barbosa <jcmbarbosa52@...> wrote:

> Then I thought: maybe what the macrobiotic gurus should

> have said was not that dreaming was inexistent for the happy or healthy

> person, but rather that the really happy or healthy person would never

> or only very seldom remember what he dreamt the night before or if he

> dreamt at all. Does anyone have any clues about this?

>

> JC

No real clues other than I haven't remembered any more than a few

dreams in many years or think I've dreamt at all. GFCFNN recent thread

on dreaming of eating gluten did remind me of my seeming to be

dreamless. I've had two extremes of health in the time so I'd say

health less than happiness has anything to do with in existent

dreaming.Happiness is relative and comparative. If I look at the

majority of the rest of the world and the state of the world now in

relation to my life and experience, I should be and am relatively and

comparatively happy personally.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

> RE: Re: dreaming and remembering

>

>

>>I like dreaming. It is always so weird. I love the way different

>>things are pieced together but don't belong, but it seems so natural

>>in a dream. For example, I might be in what I *know* in the dream is

>>my grandmother's house, but visually is an old college classroom. Or

>>I will have all the thoughts, fears, and feelings associated with one

>>person, and their name, all attached to the body of a different

>>person, or someone I don't know. Also, whenever I have them they have

>>such relevance to my life, often metaphorically. This is very

>>interesting because sometimes the metaphors are, on the one hand, very

>>obvious on the surface in their meaning, but on the other hand, seem

>>beyond my own creativity, especially my unconscious creativity.

Oh how I love dreaming! If the ability to recall one's dreams is indicative

of poor health then I must surely be at death's door! I recall at least some

of my dreams almost nightly and almost always relate them to , cuz

somehow, they seem important. I do look for the metaphoric significance when

I come out of the love of my dreams stupor - sometimes it's apparent, and

sometimes it's not. I have dreamt of so many wonderous things...flying (a

euphoric sensation!), being on alien spaceships (I dreamt that as a

teenager - I remember dreams even from when I was a toddler! LOL), of being

Carl Jung (!), of saving my beloved dog whom I could not save him in real

life (dreamt that two nights ago) and of eating gluten among other great

adventures. I've even dreamt of things that had not happened yet.

I took a course in Jungian pyschology about 20 years ago and I'll neve

forget it. It was mostly focused on dream analysis (Jung is much better than

Freud on this subject from what I recall). We had to keep dream journals and

do things to stimulate remembering our dreams, which worked so well that my

dream logs were pretty extensive. My dream partner from the class and I even

began to dream about the same thing! From that experience I believe anyone

can train themselves to remember a lot of their dreams.

I honestly don't know what purpose dreams server, but I'm convinced they're

more than just a bunch of random synapses feeling their oats. I think they

serve some real purpose. I mean, how can precognition dreams be explained,

for instance?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> I mean, how can precognition dreams be explained,

> for instance?

Do remember about 10 years ago, a short period of precognitive dreams

where a specific animal would be crossing the road around a specific

corner in the road on my way to work or back and it would be there in

the next day or two. I can be driving down the road and have a

premonition there's a deer ahead, slow down and there it is.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>I can be driving down the road and have a

>premonition there's a deer ahead, slow down and there it is.

>

I have foretold a bunch of things due to prophetic dreams. Divorces,

seeing people long absent in my life, accidents. Sometimes I sleep

without recollection, which in yogic terms is sound sleep. I remember

some dreams from youth and different stages in life. DS I used to dream

under water in different natural settings. Not drowning, just

underwater. He's autistic, now I know the meaning. I'm glad to be a

young mom and play like a kid with kids. Can't imagine reaching 40 soon

and starting.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> I've read that an inability to remember dreams is a result of B6

deficiency.

>

I've been reading a bit about pyroluria recently. A symptom of the

condition is poor or no dream recall. Pyroluria inhibits uptake of vit

B6 and Zinc through the gut.

This reading does not tie in with JC's info about no dream = happy and

healthy - quite the opposite in fact.

But I have no idea which is right!!!

Jo

(Who only ever remembers nightmares)

[Guest guest]

On 7/29/05, jopollack2001 <jopollack2001@...> wrote:

> I've been reading a bit about pyroluria recently. A symptom of the

> condition is poor or no dream recall. Pyroluria inhibits uptake of vit

> B6 and Zinc through the gut.

>

> This reading does not tie in with JC's info about no dream = happy and

> healthy - quite the opposite in fact.

>

> But I have no idea which is right!!!

I read about it in the pyroluria writings too. I, like you, rarely

remembered dreams, and when I did, they were nightmares. So I tried

taking B6 before bed, and I started having very vivid dreams and

remembering them. When I first started, I had some rather intense

dreams that were almost semi-lucid, like I was almost conscious in

them. I didn't stick with it, and I've recovered from the sleeping

problems I used to have at that time for the most part. My dream

rememberance varies, but I do tend to have a greater proportion of

normal dreams to nightmares. I never have *good* dreams, they are

always just very weird, and sometimes nightmares.

When I was a teenager, I used to have really great dreams, like I got

a $3000 guitar for free, and then I would be psyched after I woke up,

but as I'd be looking in the mirror about to leave the bathroom I'd

realize it was a dream and be very disappointed.

Don't get that anymore. :-P

Chris

[Guest guest]

> I read about it in the pyroluria writings too. I, like you, rarely

> remembered dreams, and when I did, they were nightmares. So I tried

> taking B6 before bed, and I started having very vivid dreams and

> remembering them.

Chris

I have tried supplementing B6 + Zinc, but these have had no noticeable

effect. I can't sleep if I take the B6 later in the day so I have to

take it in the morning. Perhaps it would work for the dreaming if I

could take it in the evening and still get to sleep!

However, the B6 and Zinc supplement therapy for pyroluria only treats

the symptoms, not the cause, and B6 supplementation CAN cause health

problems if too much is taken. So I hesitate to continue it for more

than a week or 2 at a time.

Jo

[Guest guest]

>On 7/29/05, jopollack2001 <jopollack2001@...> wrote:

>

>> I've been reading a bit about pyroluria recently. A symptom of the

>> condition is poor or no dream recall. Pyroluria inhibits uptake of vit

>> B6 and Zinc through the gut.

>>

I just want to mention that there's an amazing amount of similiarities

between what us gluten- and casein-intolerant folks experience (pyroluria,

low zinc, gluten and casein intolerance and other food allergies, candida

overgrowth, etc.) and what autistic kids experience. There is some common

denominator or multiple denominators(?) between our conditions, but no one

seems to have pinpointed it.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 7/30/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> I just want to mention that there's an amazing amount of similiarities

> between what us gluten- and casein-intolerant folks experience (pyroluria,

> low zinc, gluten and casein intolerance and other food allergies, candida

> overgrowth, etc.) and what autistic kids experience. There is some common

> denominator or multiple denominators(?) between our conditions, but no one

> seems to have pinpointed it.

Which, to me, just highlights how much we DON'T KNOW about all of

those conditions, and thus, why the book isn't closed.

Chris