Re: Low-carbing and athletic performance

[Guest guest]

On 7/18/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> >Now let's look at a real athlete

> >

> >It was 1968 at the Mexico City Olympic Games. The spectators at the

> >marathon went wild as a relatively unknown Ethiopian, Mamo Wolde, won the

> >marathon. Not only was the thirty-six-year-old runner the oldest man ever

> >to win this prestigious event, he did it in a time that has not been

> >bettered to this day.

> >

> >So what was Wolde's secret?

> >

> >Wolde grew up in an Ethiopian village. His life consisted of running after

> >and hunting wild game on foot. His diet was one high in animal meat and

> >fat, with practically no carbohydrate. Subsequent tests showed that

> >Wolde's body, under conditions of physical load, readily burned fat as its

> >main energy source. Wolde had no concept of 'hitting the wall'. It had

> >never happened to him.

This reminds me: Ron Schmid mentioned in a lecture that something like

80% (?) of international long-distance running championships are won

by Kalenjins (sp?), who are a cattle-herding tribe of Kenya numbering

in the millions, whose diet is similar to that of the Masai, only with

more milk. I'm guessing, but not sure, that they consume their milk

fermented. They clearly have a fat-dominant diet, and they are quite

clearly a numerous bunch of elite endurance athletes.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

Good to read your words again m'Lord.

>>So what is wrong with carbo-loading?

>>

>>There are two problems that those who recommend carbo-loading don't appear

>>to realise:

>>Firstly, the body can't store carbohydrates in large quantities and most

>>people already get more than enough carbohydrates to fuel their bodies'

>>daily activities. All carbohydrates, whether they are bread, pasta, sugar

>>or jam when you put them in your mouth, enter the bloodstream as glucose.

>>And the bloodstream can only hold so much. The body, being a well-run

>>power plant, puts the leftovers in storage to use in the future if it's

>>needed. Some is stored as a type of starch called glycogen, but as it

>>can't store much of this, the body turns most of the excess into fat and

>>keeps it on deposit in the body's fat cells. And we see it walking around

>>the streets wherever we go, hanging off bodies in a most unattractive way.

>>Put simply, carbo-loading cannot work simply because excess carbs are not

>>stored in a readily usable way.

>>

>>

Agreed. Most people are eating way too many carbs for their anaerobic

fuel needs, thus they get fat. I have read in _The Cutting-Edge

Runner_, by Matt Fitzgerald, that runners can store 3 times the muscle

glycogen in their legs as untrained folks. Unfortunately there seem to

be no references for this claim, but if it's true, then there might be

some advantage for someone racing (using anaerobic and aerobic systems)

to have their stores replenished before the big event. For regular

training, fat should rule the diet.

>>The second problem lies in how the body uses its various options for fuel.

>>Each of our body's cells contains lots of very small power plants called

>>mitochondria . It is they that produce the energy we need from the food

>>that we consume. Glucose is usually called the body's 'preferred fuel'

>>because, if it is available, our bodies have been conditioned from birth

>>to use it first. But it is not the best fuel. That distinction belongs to

>>fats - or fatty acids, to give them their scientific name. Before the

>>mitochondria can use either glucose or fatty acid as a fuel, it has to be

>>transported into the mitochondria.

>>

>>Fatty acids are transported into the mitochondria as completely intact

>>molecules. Glucose, on the other hand, can be transported only after it

>>has been broken down first into pyruvate by the process of glycolysis .

>>This is then used anaerobically to produce energy with lactate as a

>>by-product.

>>

>>The by-products of the energy-production process when fatty acids are used

>>are carbon dioxide and water, both of which are easily excreted. But when

>>glucose is used, the lactic acid produced in the conversion process can

>>build up in muscle cells and make them ache. It is this that is the cause

>>of the aching muscles or pain involved in strenuous exercise - 'the wall'

>>as athletes call it. This 'wall' severely limits an athlete's performance.

>>

>>

Missing from Groves' discussion here is how athletes actually will

become more efficient fat oxidizers as a result of training. The

lactate threshold becomes higher as the athlete gets into " better

shape " , which means that (taking myself for example) I can work harder

over progressive training yet still be aerobic at intensities that used

to be anaerobic. I get closer and closer to VO2 max before ever going

anaerobic. And of course, my body makes more little mitochondria and

capillaries over time that probably helps it all happen in the first place.

>

>I'm not sure about his assertion that it's simply lactic acid production

>that causes soreness and exhaustion (I'm not sure anyone's conclusively

>determined the whole truth about that) but it's certainly true that when

>the body is adapted to burning fat first and foremost (which admittedly can

>be a difficult thing to achieve, particularly for people in ill health who

>spent years eating high-carb) glycogen stores, which are inherently

>limited, are at the very least much less of an issue. In those times when

>I've been relatively fit and eating a low-carb diet, I could do strenuous

>physical work for hours without crashing or needing food. (I'm thinking of

>some major gardening and composting projects I've done in the past. The

>contrast between my ability to plug away for hours then with the crappy way

>I felt when I was doing some landscaping and eating a much higher-carb diet

>is extreme.)

>

>

From the book I mentioned comes this new theory on lactic acid and

exhaustion:

" The latest research suggests that lactic acid buildup (known as

acidosis) is a relatively weak contributor to muscle fatigue at high

intensities. It now seems that a much stronger cause is a type of

neuromotor fatigue, specifically, depolarization of the muscle cells

resulting from a shift in calcium-potassium balance. " - _The

Cutting-Edge Runner_, by Matt Fitzgerald, p. 10

>>Caution

>>

>>There is just one caveat. It takes time for the body to change from

>>burning inefficient carbs to burning fats efficiently. You should notice a

>>marked increase in performance in as little as 2 to 6 weeks on a low-carb,

>>high-fat diet, but maximum performance may not be reached for several months.

>>

>>

>

>This version of the article says " several months " , but a different version,

>available elsewhere on the web, includes his original statement that full

>adaptation takes a year.

>

>

I think it depends on many things how long it would take to adapt to

high-fat/low-carb training. Maybe up to a year covers all types of

people and situations. I would think the amount of training put in

weekly would come into play as well. I don't know, but intuition points

to the heavier the training load, the faster the switch. Switch is

really a bad choice of word, btw. Adaptation. So like an auto, the

mileage put in will determine when you need the next oil change, not

some set number of months.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Most people are eating way too many carbs for their anaerobic

>fuel needs, thus they get fat. I have read in _The Cutting-Edge

>Runner_, by Matt Fitzgerald, that runners can store 3 times the muscle

>glycogen in their legs as untrained folks. Unfortunately there seem to

>be no references for this claim, but if it's true, then there might be

>some advantage for someone racing (using anaerobic and aerobic systems)

>to have their stores replenished before the big event. For regular

>training, fat should rule the diet.

Even if they can store three times the glycogen, it seems to me that the

long-term consequences of high-carb eating should be enough to discourage

it. It would be interesting to conduct some studies to really determine

whether short-distance runners can do better on high-fat or high-carb

diets, but even if it were true that high-carbers can run short distances a

little faster, how many people would high-carb if they knew that in

exchange for a tiny bit of extra performance (which may not even exist

anyway) they'd be prematurely aging and suffering from all sorts of

degenerative diseases, not to mention running a greatly increased risk of

cancer?

> From the book I mentioned comes this new theory on lactic acid and

>exhaustion:

>

> " The latest research suggests that lactic acid buildup (known as

>acidosis) is a relatively weak contributor to muscle fatigue at high

>intensities. It now seems that a much stronger cause is a type of

>neuromotor fatigue, specifically, depolarization of the muscle cells

>resulting from a shift in calcium-potassium balance. " - _The

>Cutting-Edge Runner_, by Matt Fitzgerald, p. 10

Interesting. Does Fitzgerald suggest any remedies or

compensations? Potassium-spiked water or something like that?

-

[Guest guest]

,

>Even if they can store three times the glycogen, it seems to me that the

>long-term consequences of high-carb eating should be enough to discourage

>it.

>

Yes, of course. I was thinking about pre race cup of beans, rice, etc.

But I think you are right long term as well as short. As someone who

will be racing again soon, as I have in the distant past, a couple of

reasons for this come to mind. They are:

1. Carbs are more bulky generally. Starches, grains and beans I mean.

Bulky means possible intestinal distress during race, aka runner's

trots. No thanks.

2. After training without them, and depending on when they are consumed,

energy swings or metabolism problems in general might be a concern.

Last thing you want to do is change your diet before a race.

Psychologically or otherwise it will throw you for a loop.

>It would be interesting to conduct some studies to really determine

>whether short-distance runners can do better on high-fat or high-carb

>diets, but even if it were true that high-carbers can run short distances a

>little faster, how many people would high-carb if they knew that in

>exchange for a tiny bit of extra performance (which may not even exist

>anyway) they'd be prematurely aging and suffering from all sorts of

>degenerative diseases, not to mention running a greatly increased risk of

>cancer?

>

>

I keep failing to bring in muscle fiber types, which do help determine

speed, distance and performance in trained runners. I am a slow

twitcher myself. Those with mainly fast twitch fibers are the sprinters

generally. So yes, it would be interesting to measure fast twitchers

(folks with high percentage of these fiber types, easily tested for with

muscle biopsy or whatnot) on different diets and see if it really is a

big deal, or if it is a mythical assumption. But no, I for one wouldn't

go back to high carb eating and the resulting lethargy. Besides, I have

done really well on this ketogenic diet with half marathon training. I

eat more carbs than some of you low carbers, but it is basically Paleo

in nature with some lower carb fruits and maybe beans once a week.

>>From the book I mentioned comes this new theory on lactic acid and

>>exhaustion:

>>

>> " The latest research suggests that lactic acid buildup (known as

>>acidosis) is a relatively weak contributor to muscle fatigue at high

>>intensities. It now seems that a much stronger cause is a type of

>>neuromotor fatigue, specifically, depolarization of the muscle cells

>>resulting from a shift in calcium-potassium balance. " - _The

>>Cutting-Edge Runner_, by Matt Fitzgerald, p. 10

>>

>>

>

>Interesting. Does Fitzgerald suggest any remedies or

>compensations? Potassium-spiked water or something like that?

>

>

Wool, yeah dude, it's called Gatorade. Seriously, here's what he says about the

polarization more specifically, then the solution to it:

" At the beginning of high-intensity exercise, the inside of the muscle cell has

a much stronger positive charge than the area outside the muscle cell. The

difference in charge strength makes it easy for sodium and potassium to cross

the cell membrane. During sustained high-intensity activity, potassium is

released from the muscle cells faster than it can be taken up outside the muscle

cells. The resulting buildup of potassium outside the muscle cells causes a

progressive lessening of the difference in charge strength between the

intracellular and intercellular spaces, hence weaker and less efficient muscle

contractions (i.e., fatigue). "

....

" Training leads to several adaptations that enhance a runner's resistance to

cell depolarization. One of them is an increase in slow-twitch muscle fiber

characteristics. Fast-twitch muscle fibers are more susceptible to

depolarization. Training also increases potassium storage within muscle cells

and the density and efficiency of the so-called calcium-potassium pumps that are

responsible for those lightning-fast calcium-potassium exchanges. "

_The Cutting-Edge Runner_, by Matt Fitzgerald, p. 11

See, no Gatorade required. Just training.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Wool, yeah dude, it's called Gatorade. Seriously, here's what he says

>about the polarization more specifically, then the solution to it:

Yeah, I was afraid of that. Gatorade is crap. I'd be curious to formulate

and try a sugar-free mineral drink, but not Gatorade. It has 14g of sugar

per " serving " , which means 56g of sugar per bottle (more than a can of

soda) not to mention artificial colors and flavors and other noxious crap.

-

[Guest guest]

On 7/19/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

> See, no Gatorade required. Just training.

The muscle contraction involves intake of sodium anyway, not

potassium. Increasing potassium intake would at best just aggravate

the supposedly inhibitive effect of the extracellular potassium,

wouldn't it?

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

>Yeah, I was afraid of that. Gatorade is crap. I'd be curious to formulate

>and try a sugar-free mineral drink, but not Gatorade. It has 14g of sugar

>per " serving " , which means 56g of sugar per bottle (more than a can of

>soda) not to mention artificial colors and flavors and other noxious crap.

>

A huge market out there for these crappy drinks; there's like 40

different kinds now, some are like glorified, high-priced Pepsi. What

about mineral water? I don't know the breakdown of the natural

Perrier-type waters. I'd buy your sugar-free electrolyte drink. Maybe

Chris's seaweed tea? I sweat like mad in this swampy weather we've been

having in Texas. I literally had water streaming down my calves this

morning on a slow 4-miler at 7 am! I'd like a taste-free mineral

replacement drink myself. I never even bring water with me unless it's

6 or more miles, which isn't too smart.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>What

>about mineral water?

I drink Gerolsteiner off and on, usually a bottle a day when I'm drinking

it. It doesn't have much potassium, though. Here's the list in mg/L:

347 Calcium

39.7 Chlorides

0.21 Fluordine

1817 Bicarbonate

108 Magnesium

0.4 Manganese

5.1 Nitrate

10.8 Potassium

40.2 Silica

119 Sodium

2.9 Strontium

36.3 Sulphates

>I sweat like mad in this swampy weather we've been

>having in Texas.

I sweat like mad in any heat, but especially in the godawful summer we're

having in NYC right now. 92 degrees and 75% humidity. My landlord's

husband, who's sort of the super for my building, is from Guyana, and he

says summers in Guyana are much more comfortable than NYC summers.

>I'd like a taste-free mineral

>replacement drink myself. I never even bring water with me unless it's

>6 or more miles, which isn't too smart.

Well, taste-free is quite a trick. Even Gerolsteiner doesn't exactly taste

wonderful in my book.

-

[Guest guest]

>

>

>The muscle contraction involves intake of sodium anyway, not

>potassium. Increasing potassium intake would at best just aggravate

>the supposedly inhibitive effect of the extracellular potassium,

>wouldn't it?

>

But you lose some K sweating. I can't remember all the particulars of

exercise physiology, but I don't think it hurts to drink some stuff with

Na, K, Mg, Cl ... probably mineral water like 's Gerolsteiner is a

good choice. It's sparkling methinks, so maybe mixed with plain water

would make it a good chug-on-the-trail-without-too-much-burping kind of

drink.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Na, K, Mg, Cl ... probably mineral water like 's Gerolsteiner is a

>good choice. It's sparkling methinks, so maybe mixed with plain water

>would make it a good chug-on-the-trail-without-too-much-burping kind of

>drink.

It is carbonated, so even though it's not massively fizzy like some of the

insane lethal tongue-dissolving carbonated death-acid waters you can buy in

Germany, I drink plain filtered water during workouts just to be safe (or

comfortable, anyway). Besides, it doesn't have much potassium anyway. But

it is a pretty good mineral water.

-

[Guest guest]

On 7/19/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

> But you lose some K sweating. I can't remember all the particulars of

> exercise physiology, but I don't think it hurts to drink some stuff with

> Na, K, Mg, Cl ... probably mineral water like 's Gerolsteiner is a

> good choice. It's sparkling methinks, so maybe mixed with plain water

> would make it a good chug-on-the-trail-without-too-much-burping kind of

> drink.

I'm partial to coconut water.

Sport drinks vs. coconut water

(mg/100 ml)

Potassium 11.7 294

Sodium 41 25

Chloride 39 118

Magnesium 7 10

Sugars 6 5

http://snipurl.com/g0e0

excerpt:

" In one hour of sustained physical exercise, the body can lose up to

three quarts of water through perspiration. In that water are small

amounts of " electrolyte " minerals - mainly sodium but also potassium -

and carbohydrates (sugars), whose loss leads to fatigue. For most of

human history, the remedy to fluid loss was simple: drink water. But

since the 1960s, sporting enthusiasts have an alternative - the

" isotonic drink " , containing not only water but electrolytes and other

minerals, plus vitamins, complex polymer carbohydrates and amino

acids.

Debate has raged over whether these liquids - commonly called

" sports " or " energy " drinks - are any better than a balanced diet and

water in sustaining physical performance.

But that has not stopped enormous growth in demand - sports drinks

are now the most rapidly expanding sector of the Western world's soft

drink industry, with at least a third of American adults being regular

consumers.

Marketing wizards have an explanation for the triumph of sports

drinks over plain water. Tests have shown that, after intensive

exertion lasting more than an hour, their consumption is beneficial.

But in addition, they taste much better: a recent study found that

sports drinks come in more than 30 flavours, including from apple,

banana, cherry, ginger, gingseng, lichee and mango. It appears none is

coconut flavoured - yet. "

--

" I bind myself for life; I have chosen;

from now on my aim will be not to

search for someone who will please me,

but to please the one I have chosen... "

André Maurois

[Guest guest]

-

>Sport drinks vs. coconut water

>(mg/100 ml)

>Potassium 11.7 294

>Sodium 41 25

>Chloride 39 118

>Magnesium 7 10

>Sugars 6 5

That strikes me as pretty optimistic. I've gotten coconut water for

fermentation purposes, and it's VERY sticky.

The coconut water Wilderness Family Naturals sells is listed as follows for

a 200mL (7.45oz) serving:

Calories 79 Total Fat 0g

Total Carbohydrates 18g

Sugar 16g

Potassium 164mg

Sodium 24mg

Calcium 14mg

-

[Guest guest]

On 7/19/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

> >Sport drinks vs. coconut water

> >(mg/100 ml)

> >Potassium 11.7 294

> >Sodium 41 25

> >Chloride 39 118

> >Magnesium 7 10

> >Sugars 6 5

>

> That strikes me as pretty optimistic. I've gotten coconut water for

> fermentation purposes, and it's VERY sticky.

>

> The coconut water Wilderness Family Naturals sells is listed as follows for

> a 200mL (7.45oz) serving:

>

> Calories 79 Total Fat 0g

> Total Carbohydrates 18g

> Sugar 16g

> Potassium 164mg

> Sodium 24mg

> Calcium 14mg

>

>

> -

You could be right. But I remember when no one thought an unheated

coconut oil was possible, but then someone came up with the

technology/will/desire to do it. So I hold out hope.

But the numbers you post from WFN versus what I posted are pretty

divergent. It looks like pasteurization has a pretty marked effect on

the end product.

While it can be a hassle, I always buy fresh young coconuts when I

drink coconut water.

--

" I bind myself for life; I have chosen;

from now on my aim will be not to

search for someone who will please me,

but to please the one I have chosen... "

André Maurois

[Guest guest]

-

>But the numbers you post from WFN versus what I posted are pretty

>divergent. It looks like pasteurization has a pretty marked effect on

>the end product.

I don't see why you think pasteurization would significantly affect the

macronutrient ratio and the basic amount of minerals in the coconut water.

>While it can be a hassle, I always buy fresh young coconuts when I

>drink coconut water.

What's possibly more at issue is the age at which the coconut water was

drawn. The younger the nut, the sweeter the water. As the nut matures,

the original sugar is turned into fat (and, I guess, fiber).

-

[Guest guest]

On 7/19/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

> >But the numbers you post from WFN versus what I posted are pretty

> >divergent. It looks like pasteurization has a pretty marked effect on

> >the end product.

>

> I don't see why you think pasteurization would significantly affect the

> macronutrient ratio and the basic amount of minerals in the coconut water.

Of course the minerals aren't going anywhere, although their

bioavailability might be affected. Vitamins certainly can be

destroyed. But what I specifically had in mind is how it would affect

the sugars, extrapolating from what happens in the pasteurization of

milk, but maybe its different for coconut water since the sugars are

different than milk.

At any rate, I should have said that differently.

> >While it can be a hassle, I always buy fresh young coconuts when I

> >drink coconut water.

>

> What's possibly more at issue is the age at which the coconut water was

> drawn. The younger the nut, the sweeter the water. As the nut matures,

> the original sugar is turned into fat (and, I guess, fiber).

I read an article from WFN that said the water changes surprisingly

little over time. I can't seem to find that link and the link they

currently have costs $30 plus to download. That particular link from

the summary seems to be saying the opposite.

So I guess if you are concerned about the amount of sugar in coconut

water you would make sure to drink the water from a mature coconut

rather than a young one or possibly drink kefirized coconut water to

get rid of all the sugar.

Wait, I just found what I was looking for.

http://coconutboard.nic.in/tendnutr.htm

Mature Coconut Water Tender Coconut Water

Total solids% 5.4 6.5

Reducing sugars % 0.2 4.4

Minerals % 0.5 0.6

Protein % 0.1 0.01

Fat % 0.1 0.01

Acidity mg % 60.0 120.0

pH 5.2 4.5

Potassium mg% 247.0 290.0

Sodium mg% 48.0 42.0

Calcium mg% 40.0 44.0

Magnesium mg % 15.0 10.0

Phosphorous mg% 6.3 9.2

Iron mg% 79.0 106.0

Copper mg% 26.0 26.0

Source: Satyavati Krishnankutty (1987)

Sugars

Sugars in the forms of glucose and fructose form an important

constituent of the tender nut water. The concentration of sugars in

the nut water steadily increases from about 1.5 per cent to about 5 -

5.5 per cent in the early months of maturation and then slowly falls

reaching about 2 per cent at the stage of the full maturity of the

nut. In the early stages of maturity sugars are in the form of glucose

and fructose (reducing sugars) and sucrose (non-reducing sugar)

appears only in later stages which increases with the maturity while

the reducing sugars fall. In the fully mature nut approximately 90 per

cent of the total sugars is sucrose.

Minerals

Tender coconut water contains most of the minerals such as potassium,

sodium, calcium, phosphorous, iron, copper, sulphur and chlorides.

Among the minerals more than half is potassium the concentration of

which is markedly influenced by potash manuring. Tender coconut water

being rich in potassium and other minerals plays a major role to

increase the urinary output.

Protein

Coconut water contains small amounts of protein. The percentage of

arginine, alanine, cystine and serene in the protein of tender coconut

water are higher than those in cow's milk. Since it does not contain

any complex protein the danger of producing shock to the patients is

minimised.

Vitamins

Tender coconut water contains both ascorbic acid and vitamins of B

group. The concentration of ascorbic acid ranges from 2.2 to 3.7mg per

ml, which gradually diminishes as the kernel surrounding the water

begins to harden.

####So it looks like the sugar is at about 2% for the fully mature

nut. Neither amount bothers me, unless someone wants to drink a lot,

in which case it might be better to kefirize it.

I wonder what is the breakdown of kefirized coconut water?

--

" I bind myself for life; I have chosen;

from now on my aim will be not to

search for someone who will please me,

but to please the one I have chosen... "

André Maurois