Re: 's Monday Menu

[Guest guest]

>(MWThF, if you're interested).

I don't know where my brain went. That should've read " MTThF " . Wednesday

and the weekend are off.

-

[Guest guest]

,

>Breakfast:

>

>- 4T CO

>- Very rare cheeseburger with homemade ketchup.

>

>I get grass-fed ground beef in tubes which tend to be around 1.25#, and I

>eat half a tube at a time. I sear the beef, keeping it largely raw, and

>soften the cheese minimally. Sometimes I'll have some completely raw

>cheese separately. And usually I don't use ketchup (no added sugar, just

>reduced tomato juice with some seasonings, the SCD way) but a sauce made by

>deglazing the pan with a couple tablespoons of red wine and then reducing

>some beef stock, a little habanero sauce and mixing in maybe 2T

>butter. But ketchup makes a nice change occasionally.

>

>Dinner:

>

>- 4T CO

>- Half a pound of raw liver

>- Pint mason jar of pepper & onion beef stew

>- Large bowl of yoghurt with Goatein, blackberry extract and a little

>blueberry concentrate

>

You do only eat two meals and no snackies ... and Wanita, too. Not that

I doubted, and I did benefit from this menu exposé, even though I

remained silent (for once in my life). But whilst sautéing eggplant in

butter for moussaka, it dawned on me that Atkin's Orthodoxy is not to go

more than 6 hours without eating. Is this a political correctness on

his part? I too do best like this and believe snackies keep

digestive/hormonal fires going and are no better than drinking coffee

all day and stressing out about people calling me names. Bitch. Okay,

there, I swore. Can I call myself names? ROFL.

Anyhoo, you are very low carb. Now come the questions:

How long have you been eating this way?

Has it helped your health issues? - I remember you have had some but

forget specifics

Has it helped with body composition? - You asked me about this in a

running thread: yes I have a bit of fluff to remove

Have you refined things over time, ie. constituents, meal timing, etc.

Do you like steak tartare? - I prefer the rare thingy too

Do you have have anything to add?

merci,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>But whilst sautéing eggplant in

>butter for moussaka, it dawned on me that Atkin's Orthodoxy is not to go

>more than 6 hours without eating. Is this a political correctness on

>his part?

I believe it was his concession to the modern political realities of fat

consumption. At some point he even started saying something like " the jury

is still out " on saturated fat. Without plenty of saturated fat and a

small enough amount of carbs (which will vary from person to person) going

too long between meals will result in blood sugar plunges and unfortunate

indulgences in bad foods.

>Anyhoo, you are very low carb. Now come the questions:

>How long have you been eating this way?

>Has it helped your health issues? - I remember you have had some but

>forget specifics

>Has it helped with body composition? - You asked me about this in a

>running thread: yes I have a bit of fluff to remove

>Have you refined things over time, ie. constituents, meal timing, etc.

>Do you like steak tartare? - I prefer the rare thingy too

>Do you have have anything to add?

I love steak tartar, but not with ground beef for some reason, and it's a

PITA to make. Working backwards... Yes, I've absolutely refined things

over time. In fact, I'm constantly tweaking and testing new things, new

foods, new supplements, new timings, new everything, trying to optimize my

health. Adopting s' meal timing suggestions from _Mastering Leptin_

seems to have really kickstarted my weight loss. But for a long time I was

gradually losing weight just by eating low-carb. It wasn't until February

28th that I went back to working out. I haven't been eating _exactly_ this

way for a that long, but I've been eating relatively low carb for maybe a

couple years now, possibly longer. I didn't start journaling everything

until March 3rd of this year, so I couldn't tell you exactly. It's helped

a lot of my issues (thyroid problems, overweight, chronic fatigue) but I

haven't yet achieved anything like nirvana. I expect but don't know for

sure that I probably could do with some mercury/metal chelation. I'll be

trying DMSA soon for that to see what happens. I'm sure that when I finish

losing weight I'll feel better. I'm pretty sure that if I rebuild the

muscle I used to have before my major digestive disaster occurred and then

ideally build a lot more, my metabolism and energy will improve a lot. But

apparently thanks to that $##*ing asthma medication, I'll always require

digestive support in the form of pills. M$%*@!^()@#$s.

I should add that I'm not _quite_ as low-carb as that particular menu might

have made it look, though certainly I'm extreme compared to

grain-eaters. Like I said, I've been indulging in a big mess of tomatoes

once a week lately, and I periodically make fake mashed potatoes with

celeriac, which is quite low in carbs but far from carb-free. Also, the

blueberry extract I use (the one Mercola sells) is quite carby. A serving,

which I think is 1T, has 9g of sugar. I don't use a full serving, but

still, that's a non-trivial amount of sugar for a low-carber. And I eat

spinach, and like I said, reasonable servings of kimchee. (My new batch is

finally going into the fridge, so that'll start back up soon.)

In the past, eggplant hasn't been a weightloss-friendly food for me, but

I'm going to try it again now that I seem to tolerate even some

tomatoes. Ideally, I'd like to be able to eat more carbs -- eggplant is

one of my absolute favorite foods, I love nuts, I'd love to be able to have

the occasional almond flour pancake/bread/cake/whatever -- but even if I

could, I wouldn't go crazy. I'll never eat grains, I'll never eat potatoes

(particularly now that I've discovered celeriac) though I suppose I might

conceivably consider the occasional yam, etc. The long-term consequences

of eating a lot of carbs just don't appeal to me.

-

[Guest guest]

,

>>But whilst sautéing eggplant in

>>butter for moussaka, it dawned on me that Atkin's Orthodoxy is not to go

>>more than 6 hours without eating. Is this a political correctness on

>>his part?

>>

>>

Sorry for the eggplant tease. I probably do better without nightshades,

but heck, there's only so much I'll drop from my life; grains being

priority number 1.

>

>I believe it was his concession to the modern political realities of fat

>consumption. At some point he even started saying something like " the jury

>is still out " on saturated fat. Without plenty of saturated fat and a

>small enough amount of carbs (which will vary from person to person) going

>too long between meals will result in blood sugar plunges and unfortunate

>indulgences in bad foods.

>

>

Now this first sentence is not clear to me, pardon. I seem to get the

gist that with proper saturated fats and a bit of carb, long times

between meals are more manageable depending on the person. But I didn't

realize he backed off on the sat. fat stance. I have browsed many of

his books, and they all seem to quote Enig et. al. Thankfully I don't

have the binge syndrome happening with prolonged fasting periods, so all

is well there with me.

>

>I love steak tartar, but not with ground beef for some reason, and it's a

>PITA to make.

>

Yeah, I got gristle bits when I did it with ground beef. I'll chop up

steak next go round. I like PITA cooking ... or maybe I'm used to it <g>.

>Working backwards... Yes, I've absolutely refined things

>over time. In fact, I'm constantly tweaking and testing new things, new

>foods, new supplements, new timings, new everything, trying to optimize my

>health. Adopting s' meal timing suggestions from _Mastering Leptin_

>seems to have really kickstarted my weight loss. But for a long time I was

>gradually losing weight just by eating low-carb.

>

There's that book recommendation again. I'll get it soon, I have to

order some movies for the kids anyway.

>I didn't start journaling everything

>until March 3rd of this year, so I couldn't tell you exactly.

>

It's hard to journal food! Sheesh, like 2+ times a day, admitting wine,

coffee and all that. I have been lower carb for a year. Not always

ketogenic, but usually.

>It's helped

>a lot of my issues (thyroid problems, overweight, chronic fatigue) but I

>haven't yet achieved anything like nirvana. I expect but don't know for

>sure that I probably could do with some mercury/metal chelation. I'll be

>trying DMSA soon for that to see what happens. I'm sure that when I finish

>losing weight I'll feel better.

>

Well, it is good you have some improvement. Perhaps can help you

with the spiritual aspects of things. ;-) Can you get DMSA easily? If

you feel like it, I'd appreciate a new thread on this subject when you

commence.

>I'm pretty sure that if I rebuild the

>muscle I used to have before my major digestive disaster occurred and then

>ideally build a lot more, my metabolism and energy will improve a lot. But

>apparently thanks to that $##*ing asthma medication, I'll always require

>digestive support in the form of pills. M$%*@!^()@#$s.

>

>

Now, , you're being so subdued in your speech. I think colorful

language has it's place. Of course, it can be offensive when used too

frequently or violently, but it is a release sometimes. I understand

you perfectly, in any case. I am sure it is a frustration to be " stuck

in a rut " of sorts with meds. However, yes, strength training is a good

metabolic booster and is groovy with the asthma, eh? Walking is

probably something you can and do often being in the big apple.

>I should add that I'm not _quite_ as low-carb as that particular menu might

>have made it look, though certainly I'm extreme compared to

>grain-eaters.

>

>

I hear ya. No more grains for me as well. But as you workout and build

more easily than this female, you will have more leeway for carbs ... I

think and hope. Now I think of the naysayers who claim once you go low

carb, you are with it for life. Which I agree with to an extent, but it

seems to me the idea is that you can't ever come back up at all on carbs

once going low, which has been spewed by some. Hmmm. Know what I mean?

>In the past, eggplant hasn't been a weightloss-friendly food for me, but

>I'm going to try it again now that I seem to tolerate even some

>tomatoes. Ideally, I'd like to be able to eat more carbs -- eggplant is

>one of my absolute favorite foods, I love nuts, I'd love to be able to have

>the occasional almond flour pancake/bread/cake/whatever -- but even if I

>could, I wouldn't go crazy.

>

>

Honestly, the stuffed, bloated feeling and subsequent crash of energy

that come with grain/pure starch consumption don't appeal to me either.

But eggplant is 2 net carbs for 1/2 a cup. Perhaps there are nightshade

issues at play, else have some eggplant and enjoy. I love it as well.

Do you salt it first and drain? I think it has merit depending on the

ultimate cooking method, which will undoubtedly call for copious amounts

of fat if it is to be worth the candle.

Bon appetite!

Deanna

[Guest guest]

,

I have two questions:

First, do you deliberately and consistently time your workout to begin

before dinner? If not, how important do you consider it to eat a

post-workout snack or meal? If so, if someone is in a position where

it isn't practical for them to workout soon before dinner, based on

your view of meal times from _Mastering Leptin_ would you consider it

harmful to consume food after a workout, outside of the two-meal rule?

Or would the workout ameliorate the harm done by " snacking " ? (Much

the way that many people claim that it is beneficial towards building

muscle to consume simple sugars after a workout, and that the workout

diminishes the harms of the sugars because of the energy consumption.)

Second, did you happen to see my survey for people who tried the

Warrior Diet? I would appreciate getting as many responses as

possible for a review I'm going to write. Basically, they are,

Are you still on the WD? If not, why not?

Did you lose/gain fat? Did you lose/gain muscle? Did you lose/gain

total weight?

Did you read the book? Was it helpful? Did you tweak the diet in a

way that diverges from the recommendations in the book? Did you read

Maximum Muscle, Minimum Fat? If so, was it helpful? Would you

recommend the book, _WD_ to a friend? Would you recommend the diet to

a friend?

Also, in your case, I'd be interested to know how long you tried it

for, and if you jumped right into the routine or tried transitioning.

Thanks!

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>First, do you deliberately and consistently time your workout to begin

>before dinner?

Yes. I start my workout late in the afternoon or early in the evening.

>If not, how important do you consider it to eat a

>post-workout snack or meal?

That's a tough one, but the more I read, the less important I think it

is. I read a column on t-nation.com recently (not the best source of

information, I know, but intermittently useful) which seemingly debunked

the myth that you need to eat after a workout. Having some food awhile

BEFORE a workout (i.e. breakfast) seems much more productive. So if you

can't or don't work out shortly before dinner (or lunch) then I'd suggest

not eating afterwards until your regularly scheduled meal if your blood

sugar will handle it. (And if your blood sugar won't handle it, that's

probably something you need to work on, though maybe a workout is enough of

a drain that that's not necessarily true. Not sure. I know 's said

that he simply doesn't eat after a workout since he's on a strict form of

the WD, and it apparently works fine for him.)

>If so, if someone is in a position where

>it isn't practical for them to workout soon before dinner, based on

>your view of meal times from _Mastering Leptin_ would you consider it

>harmful to consume food after a workout, outside of the two-meal rule?

s does sort of advocate two meals, but it's not really a rule. I

think he says to go for it if you can. His actual rules are absolutely no

snacking whatsoever, and a minimum of 5-6 hours between breakfast and lunch

and lunch and dinner, and a minimum of 11-12 hours between dinner and

breakfast. (He has a couple other rules, including reducing carbs, but

they're not directly relevant here.) So, inasmuch as I'm convinced by his

argument that the body needs sufficient time between meals for hormonal

reasons and by other arguments to the same effect for digestive reasons, I

think snacking is just bad period unless it winds up being effectively a

third meal that fits into the proper timing. I certainly don't think it's

necessary for everyone to switch to a two-meal schedule, though like I've

said, it seems to be working well for me.

> Or would the workout ameliorate the harm done by " snacking " ? (Much

>the way that many people claim that it is beneficial towards building

>muscle to consume simple sugars after a workout, and that the workout

>diminishes the harms of the sugars because of the energy consumption.)

I really think all this simple sugar stuff is so much crap. As that

t-nation article explained, it's often justified by a perceived need to

hurriedly replenish glycogen stores, but the body replenishes glycogen

pretty quickly. And that's from a pro-sugar site at that. (Unfortunately,

I don't have the URL handy. If you want, though, I could probably dig it up.)

>Second, did you happen to see my survey for people who tried the

>Warrior Diet? I would appreciate getting as many responses as

>possible for a review I'm going to write. Basically, they are,

No, I guess I missed it.

>Are you still on the WD? If not, why not?

No I'm not. I wasn't able to keep my blood sugar steady during the day,

and the WD did nothing for my attempts to lose weight.

>Did you lose/gain fat? Did you lose/gain muscle? Did you lose/gain

>total weight?

I think my weight fluctuated modestly.

>Did you read the book? Was it helpful? Did you tweak the diet in a

>way that diverges from the recommendations in the book? Did you read

>Maximum Muscle, Minimum Fat? If so, was it helpful? Would you

>recommend the book, _WD_ to a friend? Would you recommend the diet to

>a friend?

I read MMMF, but not WD. As I said here at the time, I found MMMF

interesting and thought-provoking, but there were a lot of strange

inconsistencies. I wouldn't recommend the diet to a friend, but I suppose

that what I'm doing isn't all that far removed from it, particularly since

dinner is usually meaningfully bigger than breakfast.

>Also, in your case, I'd be interested to know how long you tried it

>for, and if you jumped right into the routine or tried transitioning.

I tried a brief transition and then stuck with it for about a month, I'd say.

-

[Guest guest]

One last (for now, anyway) question: Does s have any rules

about the *duration* of a meal? For example, would it be permissable

to eat breakfast over one hour and dinner over two hours, with no

other snacks or meals?

I would really like to square away my issue with being able to sleep

without eating before bed, so I figured I'd give this idea a shot and

see what happens. Is the book in stores? I might go out and buy it

if it is.

Thanks for answering the questions,

Chris

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Sorry for the eggplant tease. I probably do better without nightshades,

>but heck, there's only so much I'll drop from my life; grains being

>priority number 1.

Nah, don't worry about it. Eggplant is the food of the

gods. Unfortunately, neither the farmers' market nor Whole Paycheck had

any organic.

>But I didn't

>realize he backed off on the sat. fat stance. I have browsed many of

>his books, and they all seem to quote Enig et. al. Thankfully I don't

>have the binge syndrome happening with prolonged fasting periods, so all

>is well there with me.

I didn't read all his final books, but the Atkins Center did put out some

information (press releases, articles, etc.) saying basically that the jury

was still out. He seemed to be between a rock and a hard place with

everyone gunning for him, though.

>Yeah, I got gristle bits when I did it with ground beef. I'll chop up

>steak next go round. I like PITA cooking ... or maybe I'm used to it <g>.

I love food and I love eating, so I cook and prepare food, but the cooking

and preparation don't give me any particular pleasure themselves. I can

see the attraction of frozen dinners and the like even if I'd never let

them actually pass my lips.

>It's hard to journal food! Sheesh, like 2+ times a day, admitting wine,

>coffee and all that. I have been lower carb for a year. Not always

>ketogenic, but usually.

Eating just two meals certainly helps the journaling. <g>

>Well, it is good you have some improvement. Perhaps can help you

>with the spiritual aspects of things. ;-)

LOL! I spent some of my formative years in the Catholic Church, but what

can I say, it never took. I'm an atheist by genes. <g>

>Can you get DMSA easily? If

>you feel like it, I'd appreciate a new thread on this subject when you

>commence.

I ordered some and it came around Wednesday. Haven't tried it yet, but I

will either today or tomorrow, so I guess if anything happens I'll start

posting.

>I am sure it is a frustration to be " stuck

>in a rut " of sorts with meds.

I'd love to have the resources to get some comprehensive testing done, but

for now and the foreseeable future I have to take HCl and enzymes with

every meal. Not convenient, especially in company.

>However, yes, strength training is a good

>metabolic booster and is groovy with the asthma, eh? Walking is

>probably something you can and do often being in the big apple.

I don't know that strength training has done much for my asthma... I still

have problems from time to time, sometimes while working out, and I'm

definitely still very sensitive to certain pollutants (smoke, cats,

etc.). Of course, living with a cat (and a hostile one, at that, though at

least he's not allowed in the bedroom or my office) doesn't help, but my

girlfriend's pretty good about keeping him Allerpetted, and I got a Roomba

off eBay that has been a godsend for my lungs. It picks up almost all the

hair the cat sheds every day.

>Which I agree with to an extent, but it

>seems to me the idea is that you can't ever come back up at all on carbs

>once going low, which has been spewed by some. Hmmm. Know what I mean?

Well, you can definitely come back up somewhat, but it varies from person

to person, and probably strength training and maybe aerobic exercise can

help boost the threshold. (In my experience, though, aerobics don't do

squat for my threshold, which is one reason I'm focusing entirely on

strength training this time around.) That said, since people got fat and

sick in the first place from eating too many carbs, it's hardly surprising

that they can't and shouldn't return to their former diets after losing weight.

>But eggplant is 2 net carbs for 1/2 a cup.

I'm increasingly skeptical of the concept of " net " carbs. Certainly all

those fake foods out there with " net " carbs should be evaluated only in

terms of their real total carb count. Sugar alcohols and the like have

metabolic effects, their corrupt and ignorant apologists

notwithstanding. And even fiber is dubious, I think, because so many

people now have bacteria in their guts which break down cellulose and make

it metabolically available.

>Do you salt it first and drain? I think it has merit depending on the

>ultimate cooking method, which will undoubtedly call for copious amounts

>of fat if it is to be worth the candle.

You know, I don't remember what I did the last time I made some

eggplant. That's how long ago it was. But I'll wander through my vast

armada of cookbooks and maybe look on the net and in the end I'll make

something vaguely resembling some of the recipes I think sound

good. Copious fat, though, is pretty much the dominant theme in my

gustatory life. <g>

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>One last (for now, anyway) question: Does s have any rules

>about the *duration* of a meal? For example, would it be permissable

>to eat breakfast over one hour and dinner over two hours, with no

>other snacks or meals?

I think he suggests keeping meals to within an hour at some point, but my

suspicion is that if you're just eating two meals, spreading dinner over a

couple hours would be fine. I have pretty large dinners myself, and it's

not really possible to squeeze them into an hour without making everything

ahead of time and then making a concerted effort.

Here, I'll just list his five rules.

1) Never eat after dinner. Allow 11-12 hours between dinner and

breakfast. Never go to bed on a full stomach. Finish eating dinner at

least three hours before bed.

2) Eat three meals a day. Allow 5-6 hours between meals. Do not snack.

3) Do not eat large meals. If overweight, always try to finish a meal

when slightly less than full, the full signal will usually catch up in

10-20 minutes. Eating slowly is important.

4) Eat a breakfast containing protein.

5) Reduce the amount of carbohydrates eaten.

I don't think all of these rules are equally useful.

#1, very much so, and he also says that when eating a larger dinner, it's

actually necessary to have it 5-6 hours before bed. This has worked quite

well for me -- on nights when I manage to finish dinner early enough to go

5-6 hours before bed, I definitely sleep better. As I said, he also says

that two meals can work.

Rule #3, though, isn't so good. It is true that some people's full signals

are delayed, but I think eating slowly and making sure meals have adequate

saturated fat and few enough carbs are enough for that. Also, I think he

came up with rule #3 because he unwisely recommends limiting saturated fat

in the erroneous belief that dietary saturated fat will discourage the body

from burning excess stored fat, so his meals are inevitably not satisfying

enough.

Rule #4 is obvious. People with metabolic problems need to make sure

there's some complete protein in every meal. But then elsewhere in the

book, despite explaining why carbs should be limited, he actually says that

a piece of toast with a THIN coating of peanut butter (gotta minimize the

fat, doncha know!) will work as breakfast for many people! Sheesh!

And #5... well, you know my feelings on #5. He lays out many reasons large

amounts of carbs are bad... and then he slams Atkins hard (harder than

Weight Watchers!) and tells people to make sure their plates have no more

starch than they have meat.

Like I said, you really have to work to separate the good from the bad in

the book (and it's pretty poorly written, too) but there's a lot of good

information that's not available elsewhere, so I found it extremely worthwhile.

>I would really like to square away my issue with being able to sleep

>without eating before bed, so I figured I'd give this idea a shot and

>see what happens. Is the book in stores? I might go out and buy it

>if it is.

Should be. I got it from Amazon, but I imagine any reasonably large

bookstore would have it.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for the summary. I'll put a call in to B & N and Borders and see

if they have it. It's a drive, but I hate waiting for things in the

mail.

Does he give any transition suggestions, and if not, do you have any?

The idea of waiting 5-6 hours before going to bed is horrifying,

because even when I eat a large enough meal to keep me full, like on

the WD, I still can't go more than, say, 2 hours before going to bed.

If dinner isn't huge, I need to eat a half hour before bed or so. So,

if I can't sleep waiting that long, what should I do? And, in

general, I need to eat carbs before bed.

So my thought was to try the two-meal thing, and eat very low-carb,

but end my dinner with a potato or yam.

I woke up late today, and for breakfast (lunch, really) I had 1/2 cup

of kimchi, a smoothie with six raw egg yolks, 3 T coconut oil, and 1/2

c wild blueberries, about 0.4 lbs of very rare but browned on the

outside pasture-fed steak, a half plate of broccoli, and butter. I

went to work out soon after I finished, and my blood sugar seems fine

now without eating, although I have a slight hungry sensation. I

finished " breakfast " around 2, so I'm thinking dinner will be from

7:30-9:30, and then I will go to bed around 12:30.

Maybe this will help with fat loss too, since I realized that even

when I do my version of the WD I probably don't have an energy deficit

at any point during the day at all. Anyway, according to the Tanita

scale at the gym I'm almost 22% body fat, which is pretty fat! For

me, anyway.

Thanks for the info.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Does he give any transition suggestions, and if not, do you have any?

>The idea of waiting 5-6 hours before going to bed is horrifying,

>because even when I eat a large enough meal to keep me full, like on

>the WD, I still can't go more than, say, 2 hours before going to bed.

>If dinner isn't huge, I need to eat a half hour before bed or so. So,

>if I can't sleep waiting that long, what should I do? And, in

>general, I need to eat carbs before bed.

>

>So my thought was to try the two-meal thing, and eat very low-carb,

>but end my dinner with a potato or yam.

I don't remember any transitional advice in the book, but I'd suggest

trying more saturated fat and fewer carbs. If it doesn't work, it doesn't

work, but saturated fat in abundance has always been the key for me, and

yet (also for me) carbs undermine its efficacy. That's why I make yoghurt

with 1 pint of milk and 3 pints of cream, or sometimes even with 100%

cream. What more perfect and delicious source of saturated fat could there

be? <g>

At any rate, try adjusting your meals somewhat and just try gradually

stretching out the amount of time between dinner and bed. Can't think of

anything else to suggest.

>I woke up late today, and for breakfast (lunch, really) I had 1/2 cup

>of kimchi, a smoothie with six raw egg yolks, 3 T coconut oil, and 1/2

>c wild blueberries, about 0.4 lbs of very rare but browned on the

>outside pasture-fed steak, a half plate of broccoli, and butter.

Not very WDish of you, huh. <g>

>Maybe this will help with fat loss too, since I realized that even

>when I do my version of the WD I probably don't have an energy deficit

>at any point during the day at all. Anyway, according to the Tanita

>scale at the gym I'm almost 22% body fat, which is pretty fat! For

>me, anyway.

I don't know what you look like, but 22% sounds high from your descriptions

of yourself and your lifting activity. My Tanita says I'm 23%, and I still

have a good deal of visible fat to lose. Perhaps the scale is being thrown

by the fact that you ate beforehand? I get very different results

depending on what time of day I weigh myself. My weight goes up a bit

during the day (that much is doubtless accurate) because I drink water and

eat food, but in my case, strangely enough, my BF% on the scale goes

down. The last time I weighed myself late in the afternoon, it said 20.1%,

which is unfortunately absurd. I don't know what any of this actually

means for you, but now I just weigh myself every week first thing in the

morning, and if I do start weighing myself more often to get a

finer-grained sense of what works and what doesn't, I expect I'll stick to

morning weighings, or at least do morning+night or something like

that. Not sure.

Speaking of which, do you have any idea what a healthy BF% target ought to

be? My suspicion is that looking ripped means you've gone too far, but I

also don't want to carry around unnecessary fat. At the moment my vague

goal is 15%, but maybe that's too low?

-

[Guest guest]

On 7/23/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> I don't know what you look like, but 22% sounds high from your descriptions

> of yourself and your lifting activity. My Tanita says I'm 23%, and I still

> have a good deal of visible fat to lose. Perhaps the scale is being thrown

> by the fact that you ate beforehand?

Well, if I stand up straight I have maybe a half inch of pinchable fat

on my lower abs, but if I lean forward, suddenly there is a bunch of

fat there, which I guess is usually stretched out over my abs. When I

stand up straight, my torso takes something of a V-shape until in line

with my navel, where it begins to take somewhat of an upside-down

U-shape, which I think is from fat that's been accumulating around my

lower back. My entire body besides my mid-section is very lean and

defined, including my upper torso.

The last time I checked the Tanita I was, I think 14%, and it's said

11% before, so I think a lot of this fat gain is fairly recent. I

think part of it is that I got hooked on six servings of coffee a day

and then quit, after which I quickly gained, I'm guessing, 3-4 lbs of

fat and maybe a pound of muscle over a week. In any case, I'm 23, so

I shouldn't be gaining fat so quickly or if it continues I could be a

disaster in a year. So, I'll have to change it!

I'm going to try this Mastering Leptin thing (no bookstores have it

around so I'll have to order it I guess), and I'll try cutting carbs

for a while and maybe eating less total food and adding some aerobics

(which I've found helps fat loss in the past) till I figure it out.

I would always go with morning weighings, and always have, but I have

a regular scale and the Tanita is at the gym.

> Speaking of which, do you have any idea what a healthy BF% target ought to

> be? My suspicion is that looking ripped means you've gone too far, but I

> also don't want to carry around unnecessary fat. At the moment my vague

> goal is 15%, but maybe that's too low?

I'm not sure. I'm thinking 10-15%. The magazines say a six-pack is

7-10%, so the bodybuilder image must be considerably lower and pushing

the safety limits. When I was supposedly 11% I didn't seem to have

any drawbacks from it. I think if you're less muscular, you need more

fat to cushion your nerves, but if you pack on some muscle, you can

afford a little less body fat.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>I would always go with morning weighings, and always have, but I have

>a regular scale and the Tanita is at the gym.

Yeah, always a problem. I'm not sure the Tanita is really _accurate_ about

body fat anyway. It just seems very consistent -- provided I use it at the

same time of the day. But I suppose that's the main important thing anyway.

>I'm not sure. I'm thinking 10-15%. The magazines say a six-pack is

>7-10%, so the bodybuilder image must be considerably lower and pushing

>the safety limits. When I was supposedly 11% I didn't seem to have

>any drawbacks from it. I think if you're less muscular, you need more

>fat to cushion your nerves, but if you pack on some muscle, you can

>afford a little less body fat.

Well, Ron said you have to start doing all kinds of tricky and probably bad

things to get below 12%, and I've read similar estimates ranging from

10-14%, so 7-10% sounds like very bad news to me. Also, inasmuch as fat is

essential for life and health, I'd be worried about getting my system to

strip away too much fat. What if it decides that the fat in my brain, for

example, is more expendable than a few extra ounces from somewhere

else? That's the very last thing I'd want to risk happening.

-

[Guest guest]

>The last time I weighed myself late in the afternoon, it said 20.1%,

>which is unfortunately absurd. I don't know what any of this actually

>means for you, but now I just weigh myself every week first thing in the

>morning, and if I do start weighing myself more often to get a

>finer-grained sense of what works and what doesn't, I expect I'll stick to

>morning weighings, or at least do morning+night or something like

>that. Not sure.

>

>

Now now, let's not get obsessive about the scale. <g>

>Speaking of which, do you have any idea what a healthy BF% target ought to

>be? My suspicion is that looking ripped means you've gone too far, but I

>also don't want to carry around unnecessary fat. At the moment my vague

>goal is 15%, but maybe that's too low?

>

FYI, my Ace personal Trainer Manual says the following for body fat

percentages for normal, non bodybuilding competitive, Joe and Jane Schmoes.

Women - 18-25% fat

Men - 12-18%

These recommendations undoubtedly come from the American College of

Sports Medicine, who sets the standards for fitness, or they always did

in the past to the best of my dusty knowledge on the subject.

http://www.acsm.org/

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>FYI, my Ace personal Trainer Manual says the following for body fat

>percentages for normal, non bodybuilding competitive, Joe and Jane Schmoes.

>

>Women - 18-25% fat

>Men - 12-18%

>

>These recommendations undoubtedly come from the American College of

>Sports Medicine, who sets the standards for fitness, or they always did

>in the past to the best of my dusty knowledge on the subject.

Well, then 15% sounds like a good goal, at least for now.

-

[Guest guest]

,

>I love food and I love eating, so I cook and prepare food, but the cooking

>and preparation don't give me any particular pleasure themselves. I can

>see the attraction of frozen dinners and the like even if I'd never let

>them actually pass my lips.

>

>

I think it's safe to say everyone on board this list has at least a

strong fondness for food. Good food at that. Frozen dinners, bah!

Cooking is science and art melded together in magnificence. I suppose

it helps to work at home to enjoy it so. <g>

>>Well, it is good you have some improvement. Perhaps can help you

>>with the spiritual aspects of things. ;-)

>>

>LOL! I spent some of my formative years in the Catholic Church, but what

>can I say, it never took. I'm an atheist by genes. <g>

>

Silly me, I joined as an adult and left it in a few years. I just don't

make a good sheep. I know many pals who have gone from growing up in

RCC to atheism. I think it must be something in the holy water that

only gets to people with certain genetics, lol!

>I don't know that strength training has done much for my asthma... I still

>have problems from time to time, sometimes while working out, and I'm

>definitely still very sensitive to certain pollutants (smoke, cats,

>etc.). Of course, living with a cat (and a hostile one, at that, though at

>least he's not allowed in the bedroom or my office) doesn't help, but my

>girlfriend's pretty good about keeping him Allerpetted, and I got a Roomba

>off eBay that has been a godsend for my lungs. It picks up almost all the

>hair the cat sheds every day.

>

I meant groovy as in you can strength train without issues. Guess I am

mistaken there even. Cat hair picker upper, I could use that, I have 6

kitties of varying degrees of hostility, furriness. The hairs get

everywhere. I'll have to look that up ... Roomba eh?

>That said, since people got fat and sick in the first place from eating too

many carbs, it's hardly surprising that they can't and shouldn't return to their

former diets after losing weight.

>

>

Agreed. And definitely the grains and starches are probably the worst

sort of carb to come back to after cutting them out. A piece of melon

after a workout is far better than a bowl of rice, which bloats and

fills me uncomfortably, and eventually makes me ravenous in a couple of

hours. No doubt for me, Paleo-type carbs are the way to stay. What do

you think of dairy carbs anyway, long term I mean. I mainly indulge in

cheese, but can do some kefir on occasion. My question is, do you have

any idea about dairy carbs increasing in one's diet and subsequent

weight gain for a low carb eater?

>And even fiber is dubious, I think, because so many

>people now have bacteria in their guts which break down cellulose and make

>it metabolically available.

>

>

Are you speaking about specific fibers a la Gottschall? You seem to be

saying it's certain microbes, not certain fiber. Cellulose is cellulose.

>You know, I don't remember what I did the last time I made some

>eggplant. That's how long ago it was. But I'll wander through my vast

>armada of cookbooks and maybe look on the net and in the end I'll make

>something vaguely resembling some of the recipes I think sound

>good. Copious fat, though, is pretty much the dominant theme in my

>gustatory life. <g>

>

>

If you've ever had eggplant prepared and it was bitter, then perhaps the

pre salt and drain would be good next time you make that dish. It

really depends and isn't always necessary. Fat rules my macronutrient

world too. :-)

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Frozen dinners, bah!

It's the speed and convenience I was talking about. In a way, though, I

often make my own -- I make huge batches of stew and then freeze it in pint

mason jars. A perfect portion size.

>Cat hair picker upper, I could use that, I have 6

>kitties of varying degrees of hostility, furriness. The hairs get

>everywhere. I'll have to look that up ... Roomba eh?

It's a little robotic vacuum. Just turn it on and let it do its thing. I

can imagine improvements, but it's pretty darn good. Just make sure to get

the current model. The previous ones apparently sucked.

>What do

>you think of dairy carbs anyway, long term I mean. I mainly indulge in

>cheese, but can do some kefir on occasion. My question is, do you have

>any idea about dairy carbs increasing in one's diet and subsequent

>weight gain for a low carb eater?

It probably varies from person to person. Some people can eat all the

cheese they want, for example. Cheese never seems to cause me any

problems, but by and large I avoid milk. I make yoghurt with three pints

of cream and one of milk to cut down on the carbs somewhat. Maybe in the

future that'll be less necessary... or maybe not. Who knows.

>Are you speaking about specific fibers a la Gottschall? You seem to be

>saying it's certain microbes, not certain fiber. Cellulose is cellulose.

Not sure what you mean, but I was speaking of " fiber " as in " foods that are

'good' sources of fiber " .

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