Forgiveness

[Guest guest]

Everyone must walk their own path to find find the answers that work

best for them. There's no " One Size Fits All " ! However, I'd like to

share my experience with " forgiveness " , if I may. Maybe it will turn on

a few light bulbs, maybe not, and that's okay. We're all here to share

and learn from one another.

How did " forgiveness " work for me? Well, it was an experiment, really,

because at that time (three years ago) I didn't know a thing about BPD.

I was lost in the FOG, big time. I saw no way out, short of mother's

death, and I wanted her to die. I really did, which only made me feel

more guilty. Anyhow, well-meaning friends advised me to maintain the

relationship at all costs, because I'd regret it horribly after she

died. By this time, even " after death regrets " seemed desirable

compared to what I was going through.

Desperate people do desperate things, but fate would somehow be kind.

During meditation one day, I got the idea to say (think) the words while

visualizing mother in my mind's eye, " I forgive you, mother, for

everything you've done to me. " It was tough saying those words at

first. In fact, it took a week of concentrated effort before I could.

When I finally did, I cried like a baby. As the days and weeks passed,

those words made me cry tons, but it got easier and easier as I began to

feel lighter and " safer " (I was so paranoid, I thought mother would " get

me " somehow). Gradually all the anger, bitterness, and resentments

lightened too. Today mother is still alive and kicking, and I'm still

" forgiving " her. In fact, I expect to " forgive " her every single day

for the rest of my life. I don't dare stop.

I'm not sure how or why it worked like it did. I've reflected on it a

lot, and the only thing I can figure out is this:

I never forgave mother to her face, and I never will. It's not for her

to ever hear. I knew mother would never change, and I had to let her

go. Remember, I knew nothing about BPD, I had no one to guide me, nor

any books to read. I thought I was THE ONLY person in the whole world

with this problem, and I couldn't understand " WHY ME????!?!?!?! " .

Mother was 79, her health was weakening seriously, she was falling, she

lived alone, she could no longer drive, and she was going off the deep

end. I was scared to death about her well-being, yet I let her go, no

turning back. It was very very scary.

By " forgiving " her, I wasn't admitting culpability, I didn't ask for an

apology, she didn't have to change or promise anything, and I wasn't

committing myself to any future " pristine " behavior on my part. I just

" forgave " her in my heart, mind and soul, plain and simple, no strings

attached. It's difficult to explain this, so I don't know if I'm making

any sense.

I think we're taught to ask for forgiveness for our own transgressions,

and that's an entirely different story, because it means promising not

to transgress again. When we " forgive " the other way around, we're not

asking for anything in return, because it doesn't have to be said to the

person personally, and that may be the key, I don't know. By

" forgiving " (no strings attached), it gradually released all the baggage

I was carrying around, because we're letting it go.

I have absolutely no regrets!!!

Can it be done any other way? I'm sure it can. This is just my

experience is all.

SmileS!

Carol

Trish wrote:

> I have another quote about forgiveness from the author Lillian B.

> Rubin's book Tangled Lives in which she describes her struggle with

> the reality of her own aging, as well as the passing of her abusive

> mother. On p. 202 she says, " I'm not dismissing the possibility of

> forgiveness. My point is that forgiveness seems irrelevant. " To me

> that gives me the freedom to not have to have an apology (which I

> won't get) or forgiveness (which I may not be able to give) in order

> to go on with my own healing.

Someone wrote:

> How do people in this group (or any child of abuse) move

> past the resentment without any form of an apology or regret???

[Guest guest]

Carol,

I relate to what you're saying. I have always found it so hard to

understand when people say there's one lightbulb moment and then total

illumination. I can't say I can think of any perfect moments of total

clarity by which the entire course of my life has been completely

altered. I find it more like what you said about forgiving and then

again and again and again. It's like learning a new language. It

doesn't come in complete fashion within a dream like realm. It comes

from practice and some days I just don't want to practice as my brain

hurts. My brain's hurting today, but I totally hear what you're

saying, how it's a course in life one chooses to dedicate themselves

to in order to find a new path. It's like and forging out

new lands out toward Oregon back 200 years ago. I picture them with a

sickle chopping away all the blades of grass that are too high to see

through and eventually when they look behind they can see a clear path

they've cut. The future is still uncertain and whether or not they

knew they'd make it to the Pacific Ocean is highly questionable. But

what they did know every time they looked behind is that there was a

pathway they'd created in the process of looking for something new.

That's what I'm holding on to for today- the pathway I've cut that

brought me here today. I don't feel like forging ahead for today, but

I am resting on the laurels for now of the pathway behind me knowing I

need to rest too. That's what you're post inspired me to think so I

didn't beat myself up too much since today's not so good for me right

now. Thanks.

Kere

> > How do people in this group (or any child of abuse) move

> > past the resentment without any form of an apology or regret???

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your very thoughtful and well articulated response, Kere.

And for the validation too. This stuff is never easy to write about,

because words are so inadequate.

Yes, I agree about the light bulb moments. It certainly wasn't that way

with the Forgiveness Path I tried. It was a process that brought

gradual results, only because I practiced it every single day, even when

I didn't feel like it. One of the ingredients in my " flea powder " is

forgiveness.

And that's so true about whacking our way forward with sickle in hand.

So often, our progress can be measured only in hindsight.

SmileS!

Carol

Kere wrote:

> I relate to what you're saying. I have always found it so hard to

> understand when people say there's one lightbulb moment and then total

> illumination. I can't say I can think of any perfect moments of total

> clarity by which the entire course of my life has been completely

> altered. I find it more like what you said about forgiving and then

> again and again and again. It's like learning a new language. It

> doesn't come in complete fashion within a dream like realm. It comes

> from practice and some days I just don't want to practice as my brain

> hurts. My brain's hurting today, but I totally hear what you're

> saying, how it's a course in life one chooses to dedicate themselves

> to in order to find a new path. It's like and forging out

> new lands out toward Oregon back 200 years ago. I picture them with a

> sickle chopping away all the blades of grass that are too high to see

> through and eventually when they look behind they can see a clear path

> they've cut. The future is still uncertain and whether or not they

> knew they'd make it to the Pacific Ocean is highly questionable. But

> what they did know every time they looked behind is that there was a

> pathway they'd created in the process of looking for something new.

> That's what I'm holding on to for today- the pathway I've cut that

> brought me here today. I don't feel like forging ahead for today, but

> I am resting on the laurels for now of the pathway behind me knowing I

> need to rest too. That's what you're post inspired me to think so I

> didn't beat myself up too much since today's not so good for me right

> now. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Wow! Way to go, Hania! You ARE a very strong person. Don't ever think

otherwise!

SmileS!

Carol

Hania wrote:

> All these posts about forgiveness have made me realize something.

> I had a few incidents this summer with a woman named Martha. She

> was part of a charity that I did volunteer work for. She had many

> BP traits. She expected me to devote all of my time to the charity

> and nothing else. Just as an example, she would call me 10 times a

> day (no kidding) all hours of the day - even during the middle of

> the night.

>

> Anyway, I stood up to her, finished my obligations with the charity,

> then resigned. I realized today that I am still bitter over what

> she has done. She thinks she has done nothing wrong. I know this

> because I confronted her with her behavior this summer and she told

> me that I was the one who was wrong. I need to forgive her for my

> sake. I can not hold onto this bitterness because it is eating away

> at me. So, I am choosing to forgive her, but there will be no

> reconciliation because she will not admit what she has done.

>

> I just wish I was a stronger person. Other people have stood up to

> Martha and can still stand to be around her. I can't. It takes all

> of my energy just to take care of my kids.

[Guest guest]

I've appreciated the distinction several of you have pointed out

between " forgiveness " and " reconciliation. " It's very helpful to

think

about how and why the two are different. My nada has always been very

big on saying (re. her behavior, of course), " Well, let's just

forgive

and forget, OK? " Well, not OK. Forgive, yeah, because you're my

mother

and you're sick, but forget, never. Instead, I just pull further and

further away and give you fewer and fewer opportunities to hurt me

and

my family. I feel some obligation to forgive you, but not to let your

behavior affect another generation of this family.

Maybe someone else will find this helpful: I try to think of her

as

I would a retarded child, albeit a retarded child who looks and

occasionally acts like a normal adult. She'll never mature, mentally.

If I can keep that image in mind, I can keep my expectations for her

very, very low. I don't get my hopes up anymore when we have a brief

" good " encounter. I think, well, that was nice, but in the same way I

think a day of good weather is nice. It doesn't signify anything.

There's just as a good a chance as ever that tomorrow will bring

pea-soup fog. Beth

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your sharing your personal experiences. I will re-read it

many times and do inquiry on suggested sentence. HJ

> I am yearning to dive deeper into true forgiveness. If you are

> crystal clear (on the above quote), I would appreciate receiving

your

> heartfelt wisdom. HJ

>

> ====

>

> Hi ,

>

> This thought about being crystal clear was very intimidating to me

at first.

> I read it as: Don't respond to me unless you are crystal clear. I

asked

> myself, Am I ever crystal clear? Is my crystal clarity enough for

?

>

> Then I reread your sentence literally. I heard you saying that if

someone is

> crystal clear, you'll appreciate it. It doesn't say anything about

not

> appreciating someone who isn't crystal clear. It doesn't say

anything about

> how being crystal clear is better than being un-crystal clear. I

totally put

> that story on it.

>

> I also realized that at any given moment, I am always crystal

clear. I can be

> crystal clear about whatever thought I have -- even when it causes

me stress.

> Like: When I'm sad and crying, I'm crystal clear that I think I'm

sad and

> crying. I am crystal clear that I am confused! I can also

investigate those

> thoughts and realize a different truth that I am crystal clear

about. My

> thoughts are clear...they say what they say. I can listen to them

and they

> always tell me what my thoughts are.How kind of them!

>

> So here are my crystal clear thoughts about that passage from

Loving What Is

> that you posted:

>

> " Forgiveness means discovering that what you thought happened,

> didn't. Until you can see that there is nothing to forgive, you

> haven't really forgiven. No one has ever hurt anyone. No one has

> ever done anything terrible. " , audiobook, tape 11

>

> From my own life, my dad and I had sexual experiences together that

society

> taught me were *wrong*. I grew up thinking that I had been

wronged...and that

> he owed me an apology for these actions. I remember trying to make

him feel

> bad...by telling him how his actions had impacted my life in hopes

that he'd

> just apologize more and more. So as long as I carried this belief

that I was

> wronged, I deserved an apology. I also had a story that I was

supposed to

> forgive him (forgive and forget) for what he did - otherwise I'd be

haunted

> my entire life by it and be seen as a terrible, cruel, unloving

human being.

> Great incentive to forgive someone, eh? Totally fear based.

>

> Through doing the Work on this, I've realized that as long as I

think he did

> something wrong to me, then I feel the responsibility to forgive

him. Uh-oh!

> They didn't teach that in school! How am I supposed to cultivate

forgiveness

> for something that I think is atrocious!? Super stress!

>

> Without the story that he did something wrong...there is no

question of

> needing to forgive him! Without the story, the reality was two

people

> touching each other..or two people interacting with each other. Is

there

> something to forgive in that story? Not to me. When I can see that

there's

> nothing to forgive, it's very forgiving! I'm not blaming my dad for

doing

> something bad to me, and I'm not putting all this responsibility on

myself to

> find forgiveness in my heart for someone else's transgressions.

> Transgressions disappear...and all that's left is gratitude... a

great big

> thank you to my dad for being with me like he was when I was

younger. It

> feels like ultimate forgiveness to me...a world of no blame.

>

> If you really want to dive deeper into true forgiveness like you

said you do,

> try inquiry with a thought where you think that someone hurt

you...and see

> what you see. __________ hurt me when they ________. Bring that

statement to

> the four questions and the TA.

>

> Reminding myself of the gratitude for my dad was really special.

Thank you

> for sparking such sweet thoughts, .

>

> Love,

> *mona

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> " Forgiveness means discovering that what you thought happened,

> didn't. Until you can see that there is nothing to forgive, you

> haven't really forgiven. No one has ever hurt anyone. No one has

> ever done anything terrible. " , audiobook, tape 11

>

> I am yearning to dive deeper into true forgiveness. If you are

> crystal clear (on the above quote), I would appreciate receiving

your

> heartfelt wisdom. HJ

Dear ,

I think that what is saying is that if you " forgive " with the

idea that -- yes, someone did something to you that was terrible or

that they shouldn't have done, but I will be magnanamous and let it go

-- that's not true forgiveness. If there is any feeling that what

happened should not have happened, if there is not a complete

cessation of judgment or resentment, it's not " done. "

So if I say, for example, " I forgive my parents for having neglected

me, " I haven't forgiven them. If I can't find a problem with my

parents anymore, that's forgiveness. There's not a " doing. " It is

already forgiven. Forgiveness is who we are without a story, except

there would be word for it, no concept of it.

Love, Caro

[Guest guest]

> " Forgiveness means discovering that what you thought happened,

> didn't. Until you can see that there is nothing to forgive, you

> haven't really forgiven. No one has ever hurt anyone. No one has

> ever done anything terrible. " , audiobook, tape 11

>

> I am yearning to dive deeper into true forgiveness. If you are

> crystal clear (on the above quote), I would appreciate receiving

your

> heartfelt wisdom. HJ\

Hello " HJ "

Whether I am " crystal clear " , who knows!

*smile*

Regarding 's forgiveness comments...

Actual forgiveness awakens for me each time I restore myself to

Truth, to Loving What Is.

Restored to Truth, I " discover " or become aware, that the offense I

believed occured, was rooted in my perception, not in Reality. In

Reality nothing happened that wasn't supposed to happen. Grace.

Peace.

So what is there to forgive ... if Perfection is unfolding

perfectly, except for my thinking that it's " unfolding imperfectly " .

Grace. All God's Business!

It's entirely my perceptions, my " thought-definitions " that

someone " has been hurt " by another someone. OR that someone

enacted " something horrible " . Yes, they enacted something, but it my

perception that it is " horrible " or " great " .

It is not uncommon for 's comments to reflect a " non-dualistic "

view and not make much sense to my/our usual perspective

of " relations, identities, causes, effects and so on " . Have you

noticed? *smile*

Love :: Charlie

[Guest guest]

Dear HJ:

If you would like an intellectual understanding of Forgiveness, try

reading a book titled A Course In Miracles. Info on it can be found

at www.acim.org. The Course In Miracles contains a Text, a student

Workbook and a Manual for Teachers, whcih combine for a total of

almost 1,200 pages. All of these pages are aimed at leading the

student to the understanding that " Forgiveness means discovering that

what you thought happened, didn't. Until you can see that there is

nothing to forgive, you haven't really forgiven. No one has ever

hurt anyone. No one has ever done anything terrible. "

The ACIM speaks about Forgiveness as being unknown in reality, where

the need for it would be inconceivable. However, in this illusionary

world, forgiveness is a necessary correction for all the perceived

mistakes that we think we have made. To offer forgiveness is the only

way for us to have it, for it reflects the law that giving and

receiving are the same. Peace is the natural state of all of us. Such

is our reality forever. It has not changed, just because we have

forgotten it.

Forgiveness is the means by which we will remember our true state.

Through forgiveness the thinking of the world is reversed. Holding no

one prisoner to guilt, we become free. Acknowledging perfection in

all our brothers, we recognize perfection in ourselves. Forgetting

all our misperceptions, and with nothing from the past to hold us

back, we can remember our true nature.

Now, if you want to truly experience the Peace that comes from true

forgiveness; then I suggest that you do The Work on every concept

that brings you anything other than Peace and you will begin to undo

your perceived world and begin to dwell in a state of perpetual

peace. You will experience the meaning of the Bible parable of " The

Prodigal Son " and you will arise and go home.

Love, Steve D.

> " Forgiveness means discovering that what you thought happened,

> didn't. Until you can see that there is nothing to forgive, you

> haven't really forgiven. No one has ever hurt anyone. No one has

> ever done anything terrible. " , audiobook, tape 11

>

> I am yearning to dive deeper into true forgiveness. If you are

> crystal clear (on the above quote), I would appreciate receiving

your

> heartfelt wisdom. HJ

[Guest guest]

Mona, that was so clear, perfect, and I'm grateful you shared that story.

It was a WOW! for me.

I could see how when I let go of something " wronged " to me by others - or

even vise versa, I wondered at times if maybe I was being cold, selfish, and

uncaring (another story?) because I felt it was more peaceful to just forget

about it and move on. I had no other words to express what I observed

myself doing. I guess next time I think I'm being cold, uncaring, etc. I

can investigate to see what motivates me in that circumstance.

Laurie O

Forgiveness

> " Forgiveness means discovering that what you thought happened,

> didn't. Until you can see that there is nothing to forgive, you

> haven't really forgiven. No one has ever hurt anyone. No one has

> ever done anything terrible. " , audiobook, tape 11

>

> From my own life, my dad and I had sexual experiences together that

society

> taught me were *wrong*. I grew up thinking that I had been wronged...and

that

> he owed me an apology for these actions. I remember trying to make him

feel

> bad...by telling him how his actions had impacted my life in hopes that

he'd

> just apologize more and more. So as long as I carried this belief that I

was

> wronged, I deserved an apology. I also had a story that I was supposed to

> forgive him (forgive and forget) for what he did - otherwise I'd be

haunted

> my entire life by it and be seen as a terrible, cruel, unloving human

being.

> Great incentive to forgive someone, eh? Totally fear based.

>

<clipped>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that clarification Carol. I'll remember this when inquiring.

Laurie O.

Re: FORGIVENESS

> If there is any feeling that what

> happened should not have happened, if there is not a complete

> cessation of judgment or resentment, it's not " done. "

[Guest guest]

Forgiveness is one of those more abstract acts. We know we should but often

don¹t know the steps involved.

Also forgiveness is a two way street, when we forgive others for their

mistakes, we should also forgive ourselves of our mistakes, because more

often than not, we¹ve done the exact same thing to someone else.

To get the root of your issue, M.D., you need to figure out how the

conversation escalated into an argument. Arguments occur when we allow our

buttons to get pressed. Someone says something that is an issue with us and

we feel the need to defend our thoughts on the subject. From their

perspective, they see something else. The fight is on. The sad things is,

often, both of you are correct. This happens a lot with my stepson and

myself. He¹s a PC person, I¹m a Mac. He¹ll say mean and rude things about my

Mac, while I feel I need to defend how Mac is way better than PCs any day of

the week. Instead, I¹ll let him babble and I ignore it as best I can. I

don¹t engage him and I don¹t say anything negative about PCs either since I

don¹t want him to say anything bad about my sweet, little, faithful Mac. He

quickly grows bored of this and leaves me alone. No fights, no need to

forgive. I pick my wars with him instead of engaging in every little battle.

I win the wars too. ;-)

Now if you don¹t want to approach the person and forgive them to their face,

for fear of starting another argument, you can always say a simple prayer to

the person. Speak to them, ask for their forgiveness and forgive yourself as

well. Their higher self will hear and understand, whether their physical

self will is another story. But it is a step in the right direction.

A great way to practice forgiveness is when driving or out in public. If

someone is rude or cuts you off in traffic, say something along the lines of

³It¹s okay, I forgive you for ___. I¹ve done it before myself, I forgive

myself for that mistake as does the person I harmed.² Word it how it best

sounds to you. I also toss in a quick ³may you travel in safety.² An

interesting thing happened when I started doing that, I encountered less

incompetent drivers.

Buddhists have a great saying that I¹ve heard, and heard adapted to

encompass any religious faith: The God in me, sees, and loves the God in

you.

Since we¹re each a spark of God, created in God¹s thoughts, God lives in

each of us regardless of what name or how we perceive God.

This saying is another great forgiveness tool.

Lastly, in order to disengage from having your buttons pressed, when someone

says something you feel the need to defend, say firmly and politely ³That¹s

your opinion.² You are recognizing their perspective is different, (not

necessarily correct), you honor that difference, but you stand in your

beliefs and refuse to argue the point.

It does get easier the more you practice and the more you actively choose

your words. Words and thoughts cannot be taken back, only modified. It¹s

best to pick thoughts and words carefully instead of allowing anything to

emerge from us. Act instead of react. The more you work on that, forgiveness

doesn¹t become an issue because there¹s nothing to forgive.

HTH,

~ Kassandra

http://discordrhyme.blogspot.com