RE: no carb questions (to ) now to Ron

[Guest guest]

> José ,

>

> > And can you do that even without seeing their faces/bodies? In

other

> > words, on the screen? I guess there must be some " psychological

> > typifying " in this, too, no?

> >

>

> There is no magic to my ability to figure out metabolic type. You

have

> actually been telling all of us your metabolic type all along --

you love

> good carbs, good fats and good proteins. The idea of going

carbless is

> anathema to you. I think the idea of going meatless would be too,

but that

> subject hasn't been broached given the nature of this list. (or

perhaps I

> missed it)

Ron:

Now this. What a sharp observer you are! Though I am afraid you have

wandered a little away from the subject. In fact, I hardly use the

word " love " any more, and even less often with regards to food,

although I am probably a recovering gourmet. Probably I didn't say it

(who knows, my memory fails), but must have given the impression I

do " love " those things. Mea culpa.

Anathema? I thought that word was confined to religion matters. Well,

at least it seems to be so in my own language. But I think you are

right: I wouldn't like to go totally carbless, though I can manage

with little (still I think I may eat more than most of you). I

wouldn't like to go meatless, either. Or probably doing without red

meat wouldn't matter that much, as long as I could have plenty of

organic chicken, eggs, fish and seafood.

Do such revelations make my presence on this list at least ambiguous?

I have talked about paranoia, and maybe I am suffering from it now: I

am under the impression that some people may look askance at me or

may even look away. I had thought about that before, and now reading

this post has reinforced this " idea " .

>

> I think that you may want to pay attention to some of the comments

that have

> been made warning about the effects of grains but it sounds to me

as though

> you have found a diet that works well for you and keeps you

healthy.

But I have paid due attention to most, if not all comments about

grains. I agree with most, if not all of them. But I don't use only

grains as carbs, and when using grains I don't use them at random. My

current diet is far from being grain-based (when I was a macrobiotic,

surely it was, but those days are gone). It isn't perfect either, but

this simply because life isn't perfect.

José

> Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi José ,

>

> Now this. What a sharp observer you are! Though I am afraid you have

> wandered a little away from the subject. In fact, I hardly use the

> word " love " any more, and even less often with regards to food,

> although I am probably a recovering gourmet. Probably I didn't say it

> (who knows, my memory fails), but must have given the impression I

> do " love " those things. Mea culpa.

Hmm. I hear a tremendous amount of passion about food in your posts. Love

even. :-) Perhaps I'm wrong?

>

> Anathema? I thought that word was confined to religion matters.

Interesting. I wasn't even aware that anathema had anything to do with

religion until I looked it up after your comment. We typically use the

secular aspect of the definition here in the US -- 4.One that is greatly

reviled, loathed, or shunned.

> Well,

> at least it seems to be so in my own language. But I think you are

> right: I wouldn't like to go totally carbless, though I can manage

> with little (still I think I may eat more than most of you). I

> wouldn't like to go meatless, either. Or probably doing without red

> meat wouldn't matter that much, as long as I could have plenty of

> organic chicken, eggs, fish and seafood.

If you are truly a mixed type then going totally carbless would be harmful.

That you find you don't need red meat is indicative that you are more

towards the carb type side of the scale than you are towards the protein

type.

Realize that I'm making huge assumptions here without knowing you at all,

but it's actually pretty interesting to see how people really know which

foods work for their bodies and how quickly they will tell you when you get

involved in a conversation.

>

> Do such revelations make my presence on this list at least ambiguous?

> I have talked about paranoia, and maybe I am suffering from it now: I

> am under the impression that some people may look askance at me or

> may even look away. I had thought about that before, and now reading

> this post has reinforced this " idea " .

No, no, no! While there is a vocal cadre of protein types here in this list

there are many others of the mixed type. I don't think that there are too

many hard carb types here since the subject matter is very meat and fat

oriented and they just wouldn't be interested. I've found your posts to be

very interesting, as I think have many others, so don't mis-understand the

perhaps intense discussion and assessment of your ideas as a desire for you

to go away.

>

> >

> > I think that you may want to pay attention to some of the comments

> that have

> > been made warning about the effects of grains but it sounds to me

> as though

> > you have found a diet that works well for you and keeps you

> healthy.

>

> But I have paid due attention to most, if not all comments about

> grains. I agree with most, if not all of them. But I don't use only

> grains as carbs, and when using grains I don't use them at random. My

> current diet is far from being grain-based (when I was a macrobiotic,

> surely it was, but those days are gone). It isn't perfect either, but

> this simply because life isn't perfect.

I understand. From reading the posts that you put up over the past day I

see that you do understand the grain issue. A lot of the argument that you

are hearing is directed towards the assumption that you had when you first

came here that " all things in moderation " is a workable plan. For many

people the correct amount of grain that they should be eating is exactly

zero. Given some of the things that you have said about how you integrate

grain into your diet I think that there is good reason to suspect that you

may be one of them. The best way to find out is to give grains up for 6

months and see how you feel. If you feel worse then re-integrate them.

Feeling better would speak for itself, I think.

Ron

[Guest guest]

> Hi José ,

> Hmm. I hear a tremendous amount of passion about food in your

posts. Love

> even. :-) Perhaps I'm wrong?

# Hi Ron,

# You are very intelligent, but I think you are trying to reduce me

to a stomach! Or to a tongue! In my mind, a ~tremendous~ amount of

passion about food would translate as gluttony. I won`t deny that

eating is pleasurable (more than sex?), but I am really very moderate

with my fork, you know. Probably I would never be an instincto. But I

can`t tolerate to eat alone (likewise, self-love only in an

emergency!). Company is as important as the food itself. I am curious

about diets, nutrition and lifestyles. I like to know what other

people do and think. That is maybe a passion. Ok, I admit a passion

for food (as well as for languages and books, music and literature,

metaphysics and history, should I add women without the other members

thinking I am a womanizer?), but not that tremendous. I really don`t

mean to pay you back (this is unfair) but maybe such a passion is

also with you?

> > Anathema? I thought that word was confined to religion matters.

>

> Interesting. I wasn't even aware that anathema had anything to do

with

> religion until I looked it up after your comment. We typically use

the

> secular aspect of the definition here in the US -- 4.One that is

greatly

> reviled, loathed, or shunned.

# Yes, that sounded too strong to me, but now I see more clearly what

you meant to say.

> If you are truly a mixed type then going totally carbless would be

harmful.

> That you find you don't need red meat is indicative that you are

more

> towards the carb type side of the scale than you are towards the

protein

> type.

# Not that I find that I don`t need red meat. I think red meat and

organs (liver above all) have an important role against anaemia, for

instance. It is rather that white meat feels lighter to me. My kids

and my wife also prefer it. I don`t eat red meat every day. And more,

there are days when I don`t eat meat at all. There are days when I

don`t even eat. But I know this may sound as if I were showing off. I

am not, however.

> Realize that I'm making huge assumptions here without knowing you

at all,

> but it's actually pretty interesting to see how people really know

which

> foods work for their bodies and how quickly they will tell you when

you get

> involved in a conversation.

# That is what I think. When I read your previous post, I somehow

felt as if you were being a little bit too (how can I put it)

~tactless~ or ~hasty~ to claim to know that much about me, without

even knowing me. Are you number Eight on the Enneagram? As if you

were seeing through me, telepathy. I know that I may have come across

that way too, to many people in this group ~ intrusive and

pretentious ~ but then my justification (can I have one?) is that I

was talking in very general terms, while you were addressing me and

nobody else. I felt as if you were trying to unmask me, but really

Ron, there are no masks here, only a little self-defence, of course.

Anyway, it was really good to read this second post of yours and

realize you admit that you are making huge assumptions about me. Now

I can see you are tactful.

>

> No, no, no! While there is a vocal cadre of protein types here in

this list

> there are many others of the mixed type. I don't think that there

are too

> many hard carb types here since the subject matter is very meat and

fat

> oriented and they just wouldn't be interested. I've found your

posts to be

> very interesting, as I think have many others, so don't mis-

understand the

> perhaps intense discussion and assessment of your ideas as a desire

for you

> to go away.

>

# I know I will probably not stay too long. It has been the same

movie in every other group I have joined so far. I have left all of

them, but I have never slammed that door. In two or three of these

groups there was a subtle indication that it would be better for me

to leave. I am perhaps too much of a dissident to fit everywhere

(though I am certain this is the most democratic group I have known

until recently), but I am not irresponsible.

> I understand. From reading the posts that you put up over the past

day I

> see that you do understand the grain issue. A lot of the argument

that you

> are hearing is directed towards the assumption that you had when

you first

> came here that " all things in moderation " is a workable plan.

# I think it is still workable most of the time, but I see your

point. I don`t deny gluten intolerance, but I also know that you can

have problems with grains from different sides, such as overeating

them, eating them not properly prepared, mixing them with acid foods,

eating them as a snack, etc... And when you find they are giving you

trouble, you inevitably think it is the gluten? It can be the gluten

in many cases, but it can also be other things, not necessarily the

gluten. This is a very difficult point to support, people find it is

not logical, so for practical reasons I have nearly given it up.

For many

> people the correct amount of grain that they should be eating is

exactly

> zero. Given some of the things that you have said about how you

integrate

> grain into your diet I think that there is good reason to suspect

that you

> may be one of them.

# Could you please elaborate on that? Why do you think I should be

eating no grains? I am very serious about it. If you persuade (ok you

may not like that word, sorry) - if you show me that I am such a type

who would be better off grains, I might want to embark on that

adventure. But your argument must not be only telling me that grains

or starches were not made for human consumption. I seem to know that

already.

The best way to find out is to give grains up for 6

> months and see how you feel. If you feel worse then re-integrate

them.

> Feeling better would speak for itself, I think.

# My guess is this - it wouldn`t make a huge difference, as long as I

kept on eating other starches. But I think it could be a very good

idea to give up bread - wheat is not a local food, and we have never

been able to make good eatable bread on natural fermentation at home.

My compliments to you. I am sure you are a skilled debater and like

an edifying discussion. May we have one.

> Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi José ,

> # You are very intelligent, but I think you are trying to reduce me

> to a stomach! Or to a tongue! In my mind, a ~tremendous~ amount of

> passion about food would translate as gluttony. I won`t deny that

> eating is pleasurable (more than sex?), but I am really very moderate

> with my fork, you know. Probably I would never be an instincto. But I

> can`t tolerate to eat alone (likewise, self-love only in an

> emergency!). Company is as important as the food itself. I am curious

> about diets, nutrition and lifestyles. I like to know what other

> people do and think. That is maybe a passion. Ok, I admit a passion

> for food (as well as for languages and books, music and literature,

> metaphysics and history, should I add women without the other members

> thinking I am a womanizer?), but not that tremendous. I really don`t

> mean to pay you back (this is unfair) but maybe such a passion is

> also with you?

Certainly! I think the difference between us is that I enjoy my passions

and play with them wholeheartedly.

> > If you are truly a mixed type then going totally carbless would be

> harmful.

> > That you find you don't need red meat is indicative that you are

> more

> > towards the carb type side of the scale than you are towards the

> protein

> > type.

>

> # Not that I find that I don`t need red meat. I think red meat and

> organs (liver above all) have an important role against anaemia, for

> instance. It is rather that white meat feels lighter to me. My kids

> and my wife also prefer it. I don`t eat red meat every day. And more,

> there are days when I don`t eat meat at all. There are days when I

> don`t even eat. But I know this may sound as if I were showing off. I

> am not, however.

You seem to be a very intuitive eater. You pay attention to your stomach

and give it what it wants. That's what lead me to the assessment that you

are a mixed type. The foods that you like are typical of a mixed type.

> # That is what I think. When I read your previous post, I somehow

> felt as if you were being a little bit too (how can I put it)

> ~tactless~ or ~hasty~ to claim to know that much about me, without

> even knowing me. Are you number Eight on the Enneagram?

I have no idea. I am a citizen of the US, though, and we tend to be direct.

My apologies if I offended.

>As if you

> were seeing through me, telepathy. I know that I may have come across

> that way too, to many people in this group ~ intrusive and

> pretentious ~ but then my justification (can I have one?) is that I

> was talking in very general terms, while you were addressing me and

> nobody else. I felt as if you were trying to unmask me, but really

> Ron, there are no masks here, only a little self-defence, of course.

> Anyway, it was really good to read this second post of yours and

> realize you admit that you are making huge assumptions about me. Now

> I can see you are tactful.

A cultural difference. You are teaching me much.

>

> >

> > No, no, no! While there is a vocal cadre of protein types here in

> this list

> > there are many others of the mixed type. I don't think that there

> are too

> > many hard carb types here since the subject matter is very meat and

> fat

> > oriented and they just wouldn't be interested. I've found your

> posts to be

> > very interesting, as I think have many others, so don't mis-

> understand the

> > perhaps intense discussion and assessment of your ideas as a desire

> for you

> > to go away.

> >

> # I know I will probably not stay too long. It has been the same

> movie in every other group I have joined so far. I have left all of

> them, but I have never slammed that door. In two or three of these

> groups there was a subtle indication that it would be better for me

> to leave. I am perhaps too much of a dissident to fit everywhere

> (though I am certain this is the most democratic group I have known

> until recently), but I am not irresponsible.

I was once like you. Now I look to see if I find substantial agreement with

a group and then learn to live with the disagreements without having to

constantly bring them to the forefront. If there is not enough agreement I

simply move on.

> For many

> > people the correct amount of grain that they should be eating is

> exactly

> > zero. Given some of the things that you have said about how you

> integrate

> > grain into your diet I think that there is good reason to suspect

> that you

> > may be one of them.

>

> # Could you please elaborate on that? Why do you think I should be

> eating no grains? I am very serious about it. If you persuade (ok you

> may not like that word, sorry) - if you show me that I am such a type

> who would be better off grains, I might want to embark on that

> adventure. But your argument must not be only telling me that grains

> or starches were not made for human consumption. I seem to know that

> already.

>

> The best way to find out is to give grains up for 6

> > months and see how you feel. If you feel worse then re-integrate

> them.

> > Feeling better would speak for itself, I think.

>

> # My guess is this - it wouldn`t make a huge difference, as long as I

> kept on eating other starches. But I think it could be a very good

> idea to give up bread - wheat is not a local food, and we have never

> been able to make good eatable bread on natural fermentation at home.

I am not knowledgeable enough to prove to you that grains were not made for

human consumption.

My assessment that you are gluten intolerant is based on some of the

comments you made previously about feeling uncomfortable giving them up.

That is certainly no proof that you have a problem with them, but it is what

I would call a clue. I cannot persuade you (persuade is a fine word in my

book) that you are gluten intolerant as I do not know that. At best I can

take my very limited experience in this area and point you in a direction

that is similar to the path that I took.

It took me well over a year to come to grips with the fact that it was the

wheat flour in my diet that has caused many, many problems despite the fact

that others were telling me on a regular basis. After months of denial that

wasn't even denial -- the thoughts just didn't register -- I woke up one day

as if from a dream and realized that I needed to get off of the stuff.

I respectfully disagree with you that giving up grains would not be helpful

if you continue to eat other starches. There actually do seem to be real

differences between the way humans digest properly prepared beans and root

vegetables as opposed to grasses. Perhaps all of the conversations that you

have had here on this list will prompt you to do the only test that will

answer the question once and for all -- give up grains for a time and see

how you feel. If you are allergic you will most likely go through some type

of withdrawal and then feel better. Re-introduction of grains should make

you feel worse.

>

> My compliments to you. I am sure you are a skilled debater and like

> an edifying discussion. May we have one.

Thank you for the complement. Likewise.

Ron

[Guest guest]

> Hi José ,

* Hi Ron,

> Certainly! I think the difference between us is that I enjoy my

passions

> and play with them wholeheartedly.

* But this is very unfair. Do you mean to say that I half enjoy my

life? I would expect such a " disclosure " from a friend, but not from

a friend-to-be. Sounds as if you were saying that my " passions " ,

whatever they are, are guilt-based. Aren't you assuming too much?

Putting me in a box?

> You seem to be a very intuitive eater. You pay attention to your

stomach

> and give it what it wants. That's what lead me to the assessment

that you

> are a mixed type. The foods that you like are typical of a mixed

type.

* Don't know. I seem to be very rational, too. To be honest, there

are no foods that I love, and there are no foods that I hate (except

maybe milk and kidneys). Of course, I have my preferences, but in

general I enjoy the whole range of edible foods. If that means I am a

mixed carb, then it is ok.

>

> # Are you number Eight on the Enneagram?

>

> I have no idea. I am a citizen of the US, though, and we tend to

be direct.

> My apologies if I offended.

* How patriotic of you to remember that! Me, sometimes I am ashamed

to say I am a citizen of my country ... Oh, maybe that is THE

difference between you and me. I also like frankness, but I would

rather use a winding road, if there is one, to reach you, because the

straight route can be like a missile (explosive) and give you no

chance to return. Really, I have a hard time, Ron, with people who

say " I know you " at the first meeting - but not with those who know

but don't say they do. No, you didn't really offend, but your the

sureness of your analysis took me by surprise.

>

> > Anyway, it was really good to read this second post of yours and

> > realize you admit that you are making huge assumptions about me.

Now

> > I can see you are tactful.

>

> A cultural difference. You are teaching me much.

* Maybe cultural, but also probably temperamental.

> I was once like you. Now I look to see if I find substantial

agreement with

> a group and then learn to live with the disagreements without

having to

> constantly bring them to the forefront. If there is not enough

agreement I

> simply move on.

* I think I have always been like that. I never much liked to impose

my presence. If I feel unwanted, I just leave. Sometimes it may be

only an impression, a wrong idea so to say, but if it bothers me, I

will go. That is my impulsive side. Funny that you say you were once

like me. This would be more appropriate for an older man to say. I

think I am older than you, so again I see here in your observation a

point of criticism, valuable, indeed, but maybe somewhat ...

dislodged.

> I am not knowledgeable enough to prove to you that grains were not

made for

> human consumption.

>

> My assessment that you are gluten intolerant is based on some of the

> comments you made previously about feeling uncomfortable giving

them up.

> That is certainly no proof that you have a problem with them, but

it is what

> I would call a clue. I cannot persuade you (persuade is a fine

word in my

> book) that you are gluten intolerant as I do not know that. At

best I can

> take my very limited experience in this area and point you in a

direction

> that is similar to the path that I took.

* Let me state a point here: though it would be hard for me to stop

eating grains, I think I would be fine with that, as long as I would

go on with other starches. What I find extremely difficult is to quit

all starches. To do such an experiment, however, I'd first have to

consult with my wife and my kids, because I wouldn't like to make

them follow this path, if they don't feel like it. I am almost

certain that I would be alone on that road, which would make the

journey a little less interesting, even if my personal health would

benefit from it. So you see, it is a very complex decision for me. It

involves three other people. They would certainly agree with my

decision, but it would mean perhaps a certain rupture. And how would

I justify it? Because I want to feel better? This is not the end of

the world, but it must be pondered, anyway.

> It took me well over a year to come to grips with the fact that it

was the

> wheat flour in my diet that has caused many, many problems despite

the fact

> that others were telling me on a regular basis. After months of

denial that

> wasn't even denial -- the thoughts just didn't register -- I woke

up one day

> as if from a dream and realized that I needed to get off of the

stuff.

* What were your symptoms exactly, if you can tell?

> I respectfully disagree with you that giving up grains would not be

helpful

> if you continue to eat other starches. There actually do seem to

be real

> differences between the way humans digest properly prepared beans

and root

> vegetables as opposed to grasses. Perhaps all of the conversations

that you

> have had here on this list will prompt you to do the only test that

will

> answer the question once and for all -- give up grains for a time

and see

> how you feel. If you are allergic you will most likely go through

some type

> of withdrawal and then feel better. Re-introduction of grains

should make

> you feel worse.

* I see you are a man of convictions.

> >

> > My compliments to you. I am sure you are a skilled debater and

like

> > an edifying discussion. May we have one.

>

> Thank you for the complement. Likewise.

* Ron, I will be away from the list for two or three days. So don't

bother to give me an answer straightaway. I have been talking to many

ladies here on this list, and most of time I have enjoyed our

conversations. You are the first man with whom I engage in a long

conversation. It feels good talking to a man for a change. You feel a

different kind of energy. I think I like your energy.

See you.

José

> Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi José ,

> > Certainly! I think the difference between us is that I enjoy my

> passions

> > and play with them wholeheartedly.

>

> * But this is very unfair. Do you mean to say that I half enjoy my

> life? I would expect such a " disclosure " from a friend, but not from

> a friend-to-be. Sounds as if you were saying that my " passions " ,

> whatever they are, are guilt-based. Aren't you assuming too much?

> Putting me in a box?

Hmmm. Again, I speak directly. I listened to what you had to say in

multiple posts then made an assessment and stated that assessment clearly.

It appears as though that is not the way things are done in your culture --

circumspection is more the mode of operation until friendship is

established, eh?

I live in the US South (North Carolina) and my next door neighbors were born

and raised here. They are a very well-to-do 50-60 year old couple and I

just love to interact with them. She has the same kind of ability in which

you seem to place so much respect -- when you begin a conversation with her

you have no idea what she is after until she's managed to get it from you

without ever actually mentioning what it was that she wanted. Verbal

Ju-jitsu of a sort. An amazing talent, but I'm a rather boorish Northern

type and tend to just bulldoze ahead -- as you have discovered -- and I

think that she is a little disoriented in my presence. A good bottle of

wine or two tends to smooth things over in both directions.

Given all of that, yes I find your hesitancy to enjoy your passions (fear of

Epicureanism, a tendency to non-attachment) a less than desirable trait. I

find a descent into both of those realms unnecessary as the real key seems

to be to fully embrace both asceticism and hedonism. Fully and completely

immerse yourself in whatever it is that you are doing/enjoying. Experience

it completely and luxuriously. Then stop. Be an Ascetic Hedonist. Go for

the gusto!

Now I must acknowledge again that I have never met you and know nothing

about you other than what you have told me. Perhaps you live and love fully

and are just waxing philosophical here on our list. That I do not know.

But based on what you have told me about yourself I stand by what I have

said.

>

> > You seem to be a very intuitive eater. You pay attention to your

> stomach

> > and give it what it wants. That's what lead me to the assessment

> that you

> > are a mixed type. The foods that you like are typical of a mixed

> type.

>

> * Don't know. I seem to be very rational, too. To be honest, there

> are no foods that I love, and there are no foods that I hate (except

> maybe milk and kidneys). Of course, I have my preferences, but in

> general I enjoy the whole range of edible foods. If that means I am a

> mixed carb, then it is ok.

Excellent!

>

> >

> > # Are you number Eight on the Enneagram?

> >

> > I have no idea. I am a citizen of the US, though, and we tend to

> be direct.

> > My apologies if I offended.

>

> * How patriotic of you to remember that! Me, sometimes I am ashamed

> to say I am a citizen of my country ...

I understand. I used to feel that way but have changed. I'm no longer

ashamed of my country at all. I love it very much. That all is not perfect

goes without saying, but on the whole, I would rather be nowhere else.

> Oh, maybe that is THE

> difference between you and me. I also like frankness, but I would

> rather use a winding road, if there is one, to reach you, because the

> straight route can be like a missile (explosive) and give you no

> chance to return.

I guess I've delivered a couple of missiles in this post. LOL. I hope you

understand that I mean no offense. This is what passes for passionate

discourse here in my world.

> Really, I have a hard time, Ron, with people who

> say " I know you " at the first meeting - but not with those who know

> but don't say they do. No, you didn't really offend, but your the

> sureness of your analysis took me by surprise.

I believe here that you mis-interpreted what I said. In no way did I say

that I know YOU. I did clearly state that I thought I knew one particular

thing about you back in the beginning. That you were a mixed metabolic

type. And the more we talk the less I question my judgment. As to my

comments about passion and your view of life, well, I'm listening to what

you tell me and reacting to that.

José, you are a man that I would like to meet. You are clearly

sophisticated and experienced and know what you like and do not like. Your

intelligence and willingness to engage in interesting, if sometimes

difficult, conversation makes me like you. I hope that the fact that I

choose to talk to you at all makes it clear that I think you have something

interesting to say. I feel the same thing in return.

> > I was once like you. Now I look to see if I find substantial

> agreement with

> > a group and then learn to live with the disagreements without

> having to

> > constantly bring them to the forefront. If there is not enough

> agreement I

> > simply move on.

>

> * I think I have always been like that. I never much liked to impose

> my presence. If I feel unwanted, I just leave. Sometimes it may be

> only an impression, a wrong idea so to say, but if it bothers me, I

> will go. That is my impulsive side. Funny that you say you were once

> like me. This would be more appropriate for an older man to say. I

> think I am older than you, so again I see here in your observation a

> point of criticism, valuable, indeed, but maybe somewhat ...

> dislodged.

Perhaps I mis-understood you. If so, accept my apologies.

That you are older than me is meaningless in my world. There are things

that you know and have seen that I couldn't begin to assess or speak

intelligently about. But in those areas in which I have some or much

experience I find age, seniority, class or sex to be irrelevant and they are

things which I do not consider when I make my comments. We talk as equals

and defer to greater knowledge, not artificial distinctions such as age in

my book.

>

>

> > I am not knowledgeable enough to prove to you that grains were not

> made for

> > human consumption.

> >

> > My assessment that you are gluten intolerant is based on some of the

> > comments you made previously about feeling uncomfortable giving

> them up.

> > That is certainly no proof that you have a problem with them, but

> it is what

> > I would call a clue. I cannot persuade you (persuade is a fine

> word in my

> > book) that you are gluten intolerant as I do not know that. At

> best I can

> > take my very limited experience in this area and point you in a

> direction

> > that is similar to the path that I took.

>

> * Let me state a point here: though it would be hard for me to stop

> eating grains, I think I would be fine with that, as long as I would

> go on with other starches. What I find extremely difficult is to quit

> all starches.

Okay. And I will tell you that I am in agreement with you. If I go for too

long without consuming a dense carbohydrate I find that I crave it. The

cleaner my diet is the less I need, but I most definitely need a potato once

or twice a week. What I have personally found to be a problem are grains

and, as I said before, it took me a long time and lots of aggressive

prodding by people that I respect to come to that realization.

>To do such an experiment, however, I'd first have to

> consult with my wife and my kids, because I wouldn't like to make

> them follow this path, if they don't feel like it. I am almost

> certain that I would be alone on that road, which would make the

> journey a little less interesting, even if my personal health would

> benefit from it. So you see, it is a very complex decision for me. It

> involves three other people. They would certainly agree with my

> decision, but it would mean perhaps a certain rupture. And how would

> I justify it? Because I want to feel better? This is not the end of

> the world, but it must be pondered, anyway.

Certainly a reasonable response. And one I respect.

>

> > It took me well over a year to come to grips with the fact that it

> was the

> > wheat flour in my diet that has caused many, many problems despite

> the fact

> > that others were telling me on a regular basis. After months of

> denial that

> > wasn't even denial -- the thoughts just didn't register -- I woke

> up one day

> > as if from a dream and realized that I needed to get off of the

> stuff.

>

> * What were your symptoms exactly, if you can tell?

General misery. LOL.

Fatigue, brain fog, digestive discomfort, occasional bloating, weight gain,

and did I mention fatigue?

>

> > I respectfully disagree with you that giving up grains would not be

> helpful

> > if you continue to eat other starches. There actually do seem to

> be real

> > differences between the way humans digest properly prepared beans

> and root

> > vegetables as opposed to grasses. Perhaps all of the conversations

> that you

> > have had here on this list will prompt you to do the only test that

> will

> > answer the question once and for all -- give up grains for a time

> and see

> > how you feel. If you are allergic you will most likely go through

> some type

> > of withdrawal and then feel better. Re-introduction of grains

> should make

> > you feel worse.

>

> * I see you are a man of convictions.

>

> > >

> > > My compliments to you. I am sure you are a skilled debater and

> like

> > > an edifying discussion. May we have one.

> >

> > Thank you for the complement. Likewise.

>

> * Ron, I will be away from the list for two or three days. So don't

> bother to give me an answer straightaway. I have been talking to many

> ladies here on this list, and most of time I have enjoyed our

> conversations. You are the first man with whom I engage in a long

> conversation. It feels good talking to a man for a change. You feel a

> different kind of energy. I think I like your energy.

Thank you. Likewise. I see that since this post you have engaged with

other men here on the list. I trust that you enjoyed that, also?

Now I will be away from the list until at least Wednesday as I will be

traveling.

Take care,

Ron