Re: crohn's disease -- Jordan Rubin

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know the Maker's Diet is popular and probably

sound, but please remember that Jordan Rubin is not a doctor. He has a

naturopath degree from non-accredited institution in Puerto Rico (which is

the only place he is licensed to practice naturopathy) and a nutrition

degree from a non-accredited and now defunct " Academy " that was thrown out

of Hawii for violations of consumer protection laws. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just curious if anyone ever saw any other pictures of Jordan Rubin before

his cure? (Except, of course, for the famous one used for marketing..) Mr.

Rubin was probably very sick but his Garden of Life markets him like he's

Jesus Christ. I very much distrust that whole operation -- from the

beginning it's given me a bad feeling.. I'm also concerned about Homeostatic

Soil Organisms and the Primal Defense product.

Does anyone know if Primal Defense can be sold in Europe?

~Robin

[Guest guest]

> RE: Re: crohn's disease -- Jordan Rubin

>

>

>

>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know the Maker's Diet is popular and probably

>sound, but please remember that Jordan Rubin is not a doctor. He has a

>naturopath degree from non-accredited institution in Puerto Rico (which is

>the only place he is licensed to practice naturopathy) and a nutrition

>degree from a non-accredited and now defunct " Academy " that was thrown out

>of Hawii for violations of consumer protection laws. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

>Just curious if anyone ever saw any other pictures of Jordan Rubin before

>his cure? (Except, of course, for the famous one used for marketing..) Mr.

>Rubin was probably very sick but his Garden of Life markets him like he's

>Jesus Christ. I very much distrust that whole operation -- from the

>beginning it's given me a bad feeling.. I'm also concerned about

>Homeostatic

>Soil Organisms and the Primal Defense product.

I haven't seen any " before " pictures but I've seen him in person twice at

the last two WAPF conferences and I must say he looked *fabulous*! He's one

of the most vibrantly healthy looking people I've ever seen. He's definitely

doing *something* right.

In regards to his credentials, I personally think state-recognized

credentials are somewhat meaningless. There's a nation full of accredited

MDs out there literally *killing* people with there properly credentialed

advice/Rx. Healing skills/knowledge don't always come from officially

credited institutes.

What concerns you about PD and SBOs offhand?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:51 -0500 " Suze Fisher " wrote

> In regards to his credentials, I personally think state-recognized

> credentials are somewhat meaningless.

But he certainly must think they are meaningful, since he goes by Jordan S.

Rubin, N.M.D., Ph.D. on the covers of his books and on the web sites that

sell his products. Must boost sales.

>There's a nation full of accredited

> MDs out there literally *killing* people with there properly credentialed

> advice/Rx.

Given the life expectancy of the average American, that would be an

exaggeration. Naturopaths/alternative providers have been known to kill

people also.

>Healing skills/knowledge don't always come from officially

> credited institutes.

True, but why promote yourself with fairly shaky credentials unless you are

trying to impress someone by claiming expertise.

BTW, my intent is not to bash Rubin but to point out that his knowledge of

Crohn's does not come from him being a doctor. I purchased the Maker's Diet

and returned it a week later. I don't base anything else I do on the bible,

so why my diet? Plus I don't like products being hawked at me. His ideas

regarding diet were not bad, but I can find all the same stuff elsewhere,

and I don't intend to cut out pork or shellfish. I also don't need an

expensive product to wash my hands.

>

> What concerns you about PD and SBOs offhand?

I find his argument for SBO's weak, their ingestion in probiotic

preparations potentially dangerous. I've heard from enough people on various

nutrition groups who have experienced health problems after taking PD so

that I'm not interested in the product. My digestion is just fine, so I

don't really see any need for myself.

Some links concerning SBOs & health

http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/36/1/325 (see also the citations

following the article)

http://www.ift.org/pdfs/crfsfs/crfsfsv2n3p101-110ms20020667.pdf (an

excellent review, notes the misidentification of probiotic strains in

probiotics)

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=383048 (notes

toxicities of various probiotic Bacillus strains, also note

misidentification of probiotic strains in probiotics)

PHM, RM (see how all the initials make me look fancy!)

[Guest guest]

Sea Orca and wrote:

> >There's a nation full of accredited MDs out there literally

*killing* people with there properly credentialed advice/Rx.

> Given the life expectancy of the average American, that would be

> an exaggeration. Naturopaths/alternative providers have been

> known to kill people also.

> >Healing skills/knowledge don't always come from officially

> >credited institutes.

True but for some people having " the credentialing letters " after

their names causes them to think that they are gods and omnipotent

when it comes to health. My level of usage for regular/allopathic

doctors has plumetted after what I've been thru, and what I saw my

grandmother and my father go thru over the years.

>I purchased the Maker's Diet and returned it a week later.

I purchased it and only read about half of it. I realized it wasn't

for me, but there are obviously people the man has helped out

there. I don't have a degree in nutrition yet, but I can certainly

tell people what has helped me and what was done to cause those

changes....and they can choose to follow me or not based on my

experience and their unique situation in comparison. Isn't that all

we all do anyway? If you're a savy heatlhy conscience person you

research, you ask questions ,you read to try things out. You find

what works best for you. We were all created as unique individuals

on purpose. That's the spice of life folks!!

>I don't base anything else I do on the bible, so why my diet?

Now that's an interesting comment....

Wren

TCT, SpPa, MTTB, BBAP

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>> What concerns you about PD and SBOs offhand?

Suze Fisher >>>>>>>>>>>

Hi Suze,

I became concerned when I read a page that was inserted into a book I bought

(stupid book by the way) called " The IBD Remission Diet " by Jini Patel

. I was shocked when I read it as I had just purchased some

(expensive!) Primal Defense. I searched the Internet to see if I could find

any other source for her claims. I could only find glowing testimonials.

However, most of these eventually stemmed from what seemed to me to be

Garden of Life company's own marketing.) At that time I could find nothing

to confirm the insert I've included here. I found nothing either way from a

scientific or unbiased source so I dropped it but have always been on the

look-out for more information in this area.... I look forward to following

the links provided by PHM,RM :-) Anyway here's the insert verbatim:

" On Page 108 of the IBD remission diet, I suggest that readers may want to

try a product called Primal Defense after they've been completely healed for

3-5 months. I learned of this product from numerous readers who wrote in to

let me know how well it's worked for them. Since I couldn't try the product

myself (I've been pregnant or breastfeeding for four years and counting,) I

questioned numerous respected naturopaths, microbiology professors and

gastroenterologists for their opinion on the product and all said it looked

fine.

However, since meeting the founder and president of Natren Inc. (top quality

pro-biotic manufacturer,) Natasha Trenev, I must change my opinion of

bacterial soil organisms. Natasha is a world renowned expert on

microorganisms and maintains one of the largest research libraries on that

topic in the world. She has sent me an entire CD ROM of articles, research

and clinical data and other scientific studies, (most done outside of North

America,) outlining why it is not safe to consume bacterial soil organisms

(like those contained in Primal Defense and numerous other products.)

To summarize the research briefly, soil organisms (SO) are spore formers, so

they make good competitors for yeast, fungus and other pathogens. This is

why so many people taking soil organisms will initially experience very

favorable results. However these spores are extremely difficult to kill,

surviving sterilants, disinfectants, acceleration forces, heat, pressure,

radiation and many antibiotics. Strong antibiotics -- like Vancomycin -- can

suppress certain spores. Spores are so persistent in the intestines that

another round of germination may occur after the drug is stopped. Soil

organisms can also adapt loose genetic material and incorporate it into

their cellular structure - the ramifications of which are yet unknown.

Various soil organisms can also produce harmful peptides, affecting

hemoglobin in the blood. It's important to keep in mind that virtually all

antibiotic drugs were initially developed from soil organisms and as

antibiotics become more potent, they cause more damage to the host, not just

in the immediate gut environment, but systematically as well.

In the EU (European Union) the use of soil organisms in animal feed is being

stringently controlled and questioned at this time. There are simply too

many questions and unknowns to sanction the use of soil organisms for human

consumption and one can certainly cannot qualify them as safe at this time.

I'm very sorry for any confusion this may have caused you. To be honest,

this is the very first time I've recommended a product that I've not tried

and tested exclusively myself -- I admit I was swayed by so many good

recommendations from readers. Rest assured that I will not do so again!

My sincerest apologies,

Jini Patel

July 2003 "

So there ya go..

~Robin

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>So there ya go..

The one problem with the argument against Primal Defense and soil-based

organisms _per se_ is that to the degree humans ate plants, they would

inevitably have consumed SBOs. Our ancestors weren't raising crops in

sterilized hydroponic vats or steam-cleaning them before consumption. So

while I don't know for sure whether PD is good or bad, I think I better

line of inquiry would proceed along the following two lines: which SBOs

would we have adapted to, and under what conditions are they beneficial?

-

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>> I think a better

line of inquiry would proceed along the following two lines: which SBOs

would we have adapted to, and under what conditions are they beneficial?

- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi , I agree with you. And I'm also not sure it's a good thing long

term. I don't take Primal Defense. (Although I must confess that at this

very late minute I am looking at one of two little bottles sitting in front

of my keyboard: Lactobacillus Sporogenes and Saccharomyces boulardii both

Thorne versions and both supplements I started to take a couple days ago to

(I hope) help with my parasite cleanse. (Some dreadful tropical parasite

wormed its way into my vacationing body.) Anyway, I figured if I was

cleaning house of bugs it might be helpful to add some temporary " good "

yeast to fill the void left by dying critters. I won't take them longer than

a few weeks..)

My feeling is it pays to be reasonable...

Signed,

Hypocrites are us,

~Robin

Ps But I AM curious about this business of SBO's being banned in Europe; Is

it so and what's up with that?

[Guest guest]

Hi Suze,

> I haven't seen any " before " pictures but I've seen him in

> person twice at

> the last two WAPF conferences and I must say he looked

> *fabulous*! He's one

> of the most vibrantly healthy looking people I've ever seen.

> He's definitely

> doing *something* right.

I second that. He's very fit, clearly works out and just radiated vigor.

Ron

[Guest guest]

> I haven't read the book, but does Jordan at any point spell out the stuff he

actually

> took to recover *before* he developed PD?

>

> Apparently, PD is the result of his recovery and research - but what was he

taking in the

> first place on this road to recovery?

Hi,

A couple things I thought were interesting when I first read the Maker's Diet.

One was that his father was a Chiropactor and naturopathic physician and he

didn't get any vaccines until he was 15 yo. And he grew up eating the healthy

foods that were available then.

Looking at the book, he says he tried almost five hundred different " miracle "

products. (About 30 different probiotics.) Slept in a steel cage because of

electromagnetic fields in his house... etc... and then his father found some

ecentric nutritionist in s. california who gave him the black powder and told

him to follow the diet in the bible.

Anyway, the second interesting thing is about six months ago a friend of mine

said she went to the local herbal " pharmacy " and the salesperson said she

couldn't recommend the Garden of Life products because of some letter she

received for a BBB (I can't remember where). I looked online at the time and

found out that someone was putting these letters trashing Garden of Life and

Jordan Rubin in these BBB envelopes. On the BBB website they were

explaining that this isn't what they are all about and they would never do

something like that! The letters did have a company name on it. I think it was

like a two page doc and they did mention the Natren's owner saying how bad

the stuff was.

To me, he must be doing something right to be getting attacked by everyone!

PD or his other products are probably not for everyone and, I agree, they are

very expensive. The Clear Energy is awesome, I noticed energy right away.

I know the supplement FYI (For Your Inflamation) is based on Chicken Broth

from NT and contains Chicken Collagen Type II.

As to being biblical, I've heard that there a quite a few diets based on it and

the Food Network is going to have a special called What Would Jesus Eat.

Louise

[Guest guest]

On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 09:06 AM, thelouise03 wrote:

> To me, he must be doing something right to be getting attacked by

> everyone! 

> PD or his other products are probably not for everyone and, I agree,

> they are

> very expensive.  The Clear Energy is awesome, I noticed energy right

> away. 

> I know the supplement FYI (For Your Inflamation) is based on Chicken

> Broth

> from NT and contains Chicken Collagen Type II.

>

> As to being biblical, I've heard that there a quite a few diets based

> on it and

> the Food Network is going to have a special called What Would Jesus

> Eat.

>

> Louise

>

>

What impresses me is that he is now healthy. He was very sick and the

medical doctors he went to could do nothing for him. Now he is

healthy. For someone with crohn's who is not happy with their health

following their doctor's protocol this seems to offer hope. I have my

daughter and a friend taking Primal Defense, I hope I haven't caused

them to harm themselves. I haven't had time to read the links

yet...hope to get to that later.

Sandy

[Guest guest]

On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 12:40 AM, Robin Reese wrote:

> However, since meeting the founder and president of Natren Inc. (top

> quality

> pro-biotic manufacturer,) Natasha Trenev, I must change my opinion of

> bacterial soil organisms. Natasha is a world renowned expert on

> microorganisms and maintains one of the largest research libraries on

> that

> topic in the world. She has sent me an entire CD ROM of articles,

> research

> and clinical data and other scientific studies, (most done outside of

> North

> America,) outlining why it is not safe to consume bacterial soil

> organisms

> (like those contained in Primal Defense and numerous other products.)

>

>

Natren is a competitor of PD and also makes probiotics? So would you

recommend Healthy Trinity over Primal Defense?

Sandy

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:49:55 -0800

" Sea Orca " <seaorca@...> wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:51 -0500 " Suze Fisher " wrote

>

> > In regards to his credentials, I personally think state-recognized

> > credentials are somewhat meaningless.

>

> But he certainly must think they are meaningful, since he goes by Jordan S.

> Rubin, N.M.D., Ph.D. on the covers of his books and on the web sites that

> sell his products. Must boost sales.

Well actually no he apparently doesn't think *state* recognized

credentials are meaningful, otherwise he might have taken the time to

run that gauntlet. He obviously thinks *non-state* recognized

credentials are useful, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with them.

> >There's a nation full of accredited

> > MDs out there literally *killing* people with there properly credentialed

> > advice/Rx.

>

> Given the life expectancy of the average American, that would be an

> exaggeration. Naturopaths/alternative providers have been known to kill

> people also.

Yes and they are taken to task when it is shown they have done so, often

including jail time because they were operating outside of the official

" orthodoxy. " But Doctors on the other hand often are not because of

course it is done in the name of " orthodox " medicine, which makes it

" okay. "

Ever read _Confessions of a Medical Heretic_ by Mendelssohn, MD?

Its an eye opener.

> >Healing skills/knowledge don't always come from officially

> > credited institutes.

>

> True, but why promote yourself with fairly shaky credentials unless you are

> trying to impress someone by claiming expertise.

But that is a different issue than whether your credentials are

accredited or not. You *assume* they are shaky because they aren't state

recognized, which presumably is why you pointed out the " shakiness " of

his credentials in the first place. But Suze's point is that such an

assumption is meaningless, since state recognized credentials have no

bearing on expertise when it comes to nutrition and health. And Rubin

*is* claiming expertise, just not the kind you seem to think is " not

shaky "

> BTW, my intent is not to bash Rubin but to point out that his knowledge of

> Crohn's does not come from him being a doctor. I purchased the Maker's Diet

> and returned it a week later. I don't base anything else I do on the bible,

> so why my diet?

Ahhh, the beauty of the free market. We all can make our own choices

based on whatever criteria we think is important.

But to be fair, Rubin thinks his approach works, whatever the basis, and

it tracks quite well with WAP, as he repeatedly mentions throughout the

book.

And while your own personal belief system might not want anything to do

with the Bible, the dietary regulations are traditional, and quiet

WAPish, which is why Sally gives the book a thumbs up on the WAPF

website. Rubin is taking the WAP message way beyond anything Sally has

been able to do, because of the tremendous attention his book has

received from the mainstream media.

>Plus I don't like products being hawked at me. His ideas

> regarding diet were not bad, but I can find all the same stuff elsewhere,

> and I don't intend to cut out pork or shellfish. I also don't need an

> expensive product to wash my hands.

Ah yes again, the beauty of the free market.

And yes we can find the ideas of Nourishing Traditions elsewhere as well,

does that mean we ought not to read or buy the book? Or that we have to

agree with it entirely in order to reap value from it?

Ironically, I think the words of Christ here are quite appropriate when

he chastised some of the apostles for wanting to shut down some folks

who were spreading the message but were not a part of the " official "

group, " He who is not against me is for me. "

The sinews of war, a limitless supply of money.

Cicero (106-43 B.C.), Roman orator, philosopher.

Philippics, Oration 5, sct. 5.

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:49:55 -0800

" Sea Orca " <seaorca@...> wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:51 -0500 " Suze Fisher " wrote

>

> > In regards to his credentials, I personally think state-recognized

> > credentials are somewhat meaningless.

>

> But he certainly must think they are meaningful, since he goes by Jordan S.

> Rubin, N.M.D., Ph.D. on the covers of his books and on the web sites that

> sell his products. Must boost sales.

Well actually no he apparently doesn't think *state* recognized

credentials are meaningful, otherwise he might have taken the time to

run that gauntlet. He obviously thinks *non-state* recognized

credentials are useful, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with them.

> >There's a nation full of accredited

> > MDs out there literally *killing* people with there properly credentialed

> > advice/Rx.

>

> Given the life expectancy of the average American, that would be an

> exaggeration. Naturopaths/alternative providers have been known to kill

> people also.

Yes and they are taken to task when it is shown they have done so, often

including jail time because they were operating outside of the official

" orthodoxy. " But Doctors on the other hand often are not because of

course it is done in the name of " orthodox " medicine, which makes it

" okay. "

Ever read _Confessions of a Medical Heretic_ by Mendelssohn, MD?

Its an eye opener.

> >Healing skills/knowledge don't always come from officially

> > credited institutes.

>

> True, but why promote yourself with fairly shaky credentials unless you are

> trying to impress someone by claiming expertise.

But that is a different issue than whether your credentials are

accredited or not. You *assume* they are shaky because they aren't state

recognized, which presumably is why you pointed out the " shakiness " of

his credentials in the first place. But Suze's point is that such an

assumption is meaningless, since state recognized credentials have no

bearing on expertise when it comes to nutrition and health. And Rubin

*is* claiming expertise, just not the kind you seem to think is " not

shaky "

> BTW, my intent is not to bash Rubin but to point out that his knowledge of

> Crohn's does not come from him being a doctor. I purchased the Maker's Diet

> and returned it a week later. I don't base anything else I do on the bible,

> so why my diet?

Ahhh, the beauty of the free market. We all can make our own choices

based on whatever criteria we think is important.

But to be fair, Rubin thinks his approach works, whatever the basis, and

it tracks quite well with WAP, as he repeatedly mentions throughout the

book.

And while your own personal belief system might not want anything to do

with the Bible, the dietary regulations are traditional, and quiet

WAPish, which is why Sally gives the book a thumbs up on the WAPF

website. Rubin is taking the WAP message way beyond anything Sally has

been able to do, because of the tremendous attention his book has

received from the mainstream media.

>Plus I don't like products being hawked at me. His ideas

> regarding diet were not bad, but I can find all the same stuff elsewhere,

> and I don't intend to cut out pork or shellfish. I also don't need an

> expensive product to wash my hands.

Ah yes again, the beauty of the free market.

And yes we can find the ideas of Nourishing Traditions elsewhere as well,

does that mean we ought not to read or buy the book? Or that we have to

agree with it entirely in order to reap value from it?

Ironically, I think the words of Christ here are quite appropriate when

he chastised some of the apostles for wanting to shut down some folks

who were spreading the message but were not a part of the " official "

group, " He who is not against me is for me. "

The sinews of war, a limitless supply of money.

Cicero (106-43 B.C.), Roman orator, philosopher.

Philippics, Oration 5, sct. 5.

[Guest guest]

>

> > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:51 -0500 " Suze Fisher " wrote

> >

> > > In regards to his credentials, I personally think state-

recognized

> > > credentials are somewhat meaningless.

> >

> > But he certainly must think they are meaningful, since he goes by

Jordan S.

> > Rubin, N.M.D., Ph.D. on the covers of his books and on the web

sites that

> > sell his products. Must boost sales.

>

> Well actually no he apparently doesn't think *state* recognized

> credentials are meaningful, otherwise he might have taken the time

to

> run that gauntlet. He obviously thinks *non-state* recognized

> credentials are useful, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with

them.

Has nothing to do with *state* vs *non-state*. The programs he took

are accredited by NO ONE. You are aware that non-governmental

accrediation agencies exist, no?

It is also disingenuous to think that most people would be bothered

to look up his credentials to find that out. He's banking on the

power of those initials to give him credibility.

>

> > >There's a nation full of accredited

> > > MDs out there literally *killing* people with there properly

credentialed

> > > advice/Rx.

> >

> > Given the life expectancy of the average American, that would be

an

> > exaggeration. Naturopaths/alternative providers have been known

to kill

> > people also.

>

> Yes and they are taken to task when it is shown they have done so,

often

> including jail time because they were operating outside of the

official

> " orthodoxy. " But Doctors on the other hand often are not because of

> course it is done in the name of " orthodox " medicine, which makes it

> " okay. "

Really? So all the alternative practitionors who have patients die

are jailed? That given the number of cancer patients who seek

alternative treatment and die, that seems highly unlikely.

>

> Ever read _Confessions of a Medical Heretic_ by

Mendelssohn, MD?

> Its an eye opener.

>

> > >Healing skills/knowledge don't always come from officially

> > > credited institutes.

> >

> > True, but why promote yourself with fairly shaky credentials

unless you are

> > trying to impress someone by claiming expertise.

>

> But that is a different issue than whether your credentials are

> accredited or not. You *assume* they are shaky because they aren't

state

> recognized, which presumably is why you pointed out the " shakiness "

of

> his credentials in the first place. But Suze's point is that such an

> assumption is meaningless, since state recognized credentials have

no

> bearing on expertise when it comes to nutrition and health. And

Rubin

> *is* claiming expertise, just not the kind you seem to think is " not

> shaky "

Of course you are one again falling back on *government=bad

private=good* argument, but again, Rubin's credentials are accredited

by no one, private or government. He is claimining expertise by those

credentials, yet we have no independant assurance that they are

meaningful. And while you may reject any and everything governmental,

I have as much trust in government recognised credentials as private

recognized credentials. of which Rubin has neither.

>

> > BTW, my intent is not to bash Rubin but to point out that his

knowledge of

> > Crohn's does not come from him being a doctor. I purchased the

Maker's Diet

> > and returned it a week later. I don't base anything else I do on

the bible,

> > so why my diet?

>

> Ahhh, the beauty of the free market. We all can make our own choices

> based on whatever criteria we think is important.

ZZZZZZ...oh, off the soapbox yet?

>

> But to be fair, Rubin thinks his approach works, whatever the

basis, and

> it tracks quite well with WAP, as he repeatedly mentions throughout

the

> book.

Sure he thinks it works, and that is fine (although what is fair

about it eludes me). I have no problem with someone expousing

something that they think works for them to help others.

>

> And while your own personal belief system might not want anything

to do

> with the Bible, the dietary regulations are traditional,

Buddhist dietary systems are traditional also as are Hindu, etc.

People have lived long health lives that way as well.

>and quiet

> WAPish, which is why Sally gives the book a thumbs up on the WAPF

> website. Rubin is taking the WAP message way beyond anything Sally

has

> been able to do, because of the tremendous attention his book has

> received from the mainstream media.

>

> >Plus I don't like products being hawked at me. His ideas

> > regarding diet were not bad, but I can find all the same stuff

elsewhere,

> > and I don't intend to cut out pork or shellfish. I also don't

need an

> > expensive product to wash my hands.

>

> Ah yes again, the beauty of the free market.

ZZZZZZ...ah the soapbox again.

>

> And yes we can find the ideas of Nourishing Traditions elsewhere as

well,

> does that mean we ought not to read or buy the book? Or that we

have to

> agree with it entirely in order to reap value from it?

Depends. If I already have all the info elsewhere then there is

little point in purchasing that which I already have. I bought NT

around the time that it was first published and much that was in

it,while not new, was certainly not assembled together like that.

Given the resources available today, however, I probably would not

buy it because I know the basics.

>

> Ironically, I think the words of Christ here are quite appropriate

when

> he chastised some of the apostles for wanting to shut down some

folks

> who were spreading the message but were not a part of the " official "

> group, " He who is not against me is for me. "

I don't see the connection.

I like this one: " Love is reckless; not reason. Reason seeks a

profit. Loves comes on strong, consuming herself unabashed. Yet in

the midst of suffering love proceeds like a millstone, hard surfaced

and straight forward. Having died to self interest, she risks

everything and asks for nothing. Love gambles away every gift God

bestows. Without cause God gave us Being; without cause give it back

again. Gambling yourself away is beyond any religion. Religion seeks

grace and favor, but those who gamble these away are God's favorites,

for they neither put God to the test nor knock at the door of gain

and loss. " - Rumi