Re: To Skim or not To Skim... and when do you take the bones out?

[Guest guest]

Lana Gibbons wrote:

>Is there an optimal time to remove the bone?

>

>

>

I simmer until I can crush the bone with my fingers. This indicates

that the calcium has leached out into the stock.

>Anyway... I was pondering if I should skim it off or not. What do you think?

>

>

>

>

I skim my broth because fat on the surface is a deal-breaker for my

kids. YMMV. Oh, for ease of processing, I chill my broth and then

can scrape the congealed fat off the top quite easily.

--s

[Guest guest]

> Hello all!

>

> I have a few quick questions.

>

> I have this yummy pot of bones and meat (ox tails, back ribs and

hind

> shanks) simmering on the stove at about 1-2 on the electric burner.

> I've already cooked it for over 6 hours and the meat has fallen off

> the bone. The bone has also begun to turn a darker shade.

>

> Is there an optimal time to remove the bone?

Hi Lana

The recipe in NN states 3 days - after this time the bones are fairly

weak. Make sure you include some vinegar in order to break down the

bone structure.

I put in were pretty fatty and I thought I'd have a

> lot more fat on the top.

>

> Anyway... I was pondering if I should skim it off or not. What do

you think?

>

The fat forms a solid layer when cold and will help the stock last

longer in the fridge until it's broken. FOr this reason, I don't

skim it off.

Jo

[Guest guest]

Jo,

> The recipe in NN states 3 days - after this time the bones are fairly

> weak. Make sure you include some vinegar in order to break down the

> bone structure.

That is good to hear. I've had it alternating between cooking on low

and soaking for the last 24 hours. It hasn't gotten below what I

would consider a good black tea's brewing temperature. I don't have a

temperature gauge unfortunately.

What kind of vinegar should I include? I have apple cider as well as

white. I prefer the apple cider but it gives some foods a strange

flavor. How much? I have what is now by my best guess about 1.5 qt

of 1 day old stock.

> The fat forms a solid layer when cold and will help the stock last

> longer in the fridge until it's broken. FOr this reason, I don't

> skim it off.

Wow, that's kewl. Here I was worring about possible freezerburn and

the fat already does it! That makes so much sense.

Thanks!

Sincerely,

Lana M. Gibbons

[Guest guest]

Suzanne,

> I simmer until I can crush the bone with my fingers. This indicates

> that the calcium has leached out into the stock.

If you can crush the bone with your fingers, does that mean the bone

is edible too? I feed my dog a raw diet so I know bone is edible for

dogs, but I've never seen any way people could eat bones other than

pressure cooking.

Thanks!

-Lana M. Gibbons

[Guest guest]

Lana Gibbons wrote:

>Suzanne,

>

>

>

>> I simmer until I can crush the bone with my fingers. This indicates

>> that the calcium has leached out into the stock.

>>

>>

>

>If you can crush the bone with your fingers, does that mean the bone

>is edible too?

>

Hmmm....never considered that possibility. That's definitely a question

for Heidi Jean....LOL! I seem to recall her mentioning an indigenous

people who made bone balls and ate them, but I don't remember any

particulars. She's nomail atm, but she might be available to offlist email.

>I feed my dog a raw diet so I know bone is edible for

>dogs, but I've never seen any way people could eat bones other than

>pressure cooking.

>

>

>

Now that I kick it around in my head.....the bones, especially the thin,

porous ones, could be pureed and made into a paste quite easily. The

leg bones are sturdier and would require longer simmering before they

got soft enough to do this. I'm wondering if the bone matter could be

included in some kind of pate or aspic or even " meat " loaf.....?

If you experiment with this, do post a report about your results! It

would be fascinating.

--s

[Guest guest]

> That is good to hear. I've had it alternating between cooking on

low

> and soaking for the last 24 hours. It hasn't gotten below what I

> would consider a good black tea's brewing temperature. I don't

have a

> temperature gauge unfortunately.

>

Mine just simmers away - I'm not bothered about the temp, as long as

it's not boiling wildly.

> What kind of vinegar should I include? I have apple cider as well

as

> white. I prefer the apple cider but it gives some foods a strange

> flavor. How much? I have what is now by my best guess about 1.5 qt

> of 1 day old stock.

I've never made such a small amount of beef stock so I don't know

what qty. I use about 1/2 a cup with several litres of water from

cold. In your case, perhaps a tbsp or 2?

Jo

[Guest guest]

> That is good to hear. I've had it alternating between cooking on

low

> and soaking for the last 24 hours. It hasn't gotten below what I

> would consider a good black tea's brewing temperature. I don't

have a

> temperature gauge unfortunately.

>

Mine just simmers away - I'm not bothered about the temp, as long as

it's not boiling wildly.

> What kind of vinegar should I include? I have apple cider as well

as

> white. I prefer the apple cider but it gives some foods a strange

> flavor. How much? I have what is now by my best guess about 1.5 qt

> of 1 day old stock.

I've never made such a small amount of beef stock so I don't know

what qty. I use about 1/2 a cup with several litres of water from

cold. In your case, perhaps a tbsp or 2?

Jo

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Does anyone actually simmer for 48 hours? If I did that I'd have

nothing left!

I have a wide variety of contemporary yet traditionally minded

cookbooks and the consensus seems to be:

- skim the grey stuff during the 1st hour

- leave the fat

- defat the broth at the end after it has cooled. This is because

usually broth is headed for soup or sauce, and there is cleaner tastes

without the fat. The fat can be used in other ways.

I usually let stock go overnight but after 12 hours everything seems

to be pretty thoroughly simmered out.

cheers,

> > That is good to hear. I've had it alternating between cooking on

> low

> > and soaking for the last 24 hours. It hasn't gotten below what I

> > would consider a good black tea's brewing temperature. I don't

> have a

> > temperature gauge unfortunately.

> >

>

> Mine just simmers away - I'm not bothered about the temp, as long as

> it's not boiling wildly.

>

> > What kind of vinegar should I include? I have apple cider as well

> as

> > white. I prefer the apple cider but it gives some foods a strange

> > flavor. How much? I have what is now by my best guess about 1.5 qt

> > of 1 day old stock.

>

>

> I've never made such a small amount of beef stock so I don't know

> what qty. I use about 1/2 a cup with several litres of water from

> cold. In your case, perhaps a tbsp or 2?

>

>

> Jo

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Pearl " <jp2@s...>

wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> Does anyone actually simmer for 48 hours? If I did that I'd have

> nothing left!

I'm pretty lazy with my stock/broth. I put it in the crock pot and

the next day (no skimming) I ladle some out to use in whatever

(soup, cooking something in place of water) and close the crockpot

and let it keep going, sometimes as long as 5 days. When I get

enough time, I put a pot in the sink and a colander on top, dump the

stock pot through that and let it drain a while. I take the pot out

from under and put in the fridge til the fat is solid, scrape that

off and put into containers for the freezer. Meanwhile I cool the

bones/meat/onion. Now at the risk of getting fired upon by the good

dog owners, I separate the bones from the meat and pack it for our

dog, who loves this meat over her kibble - My partner will not allow

cooked bones and won't go to the BARF diet for our dog. I don't try

to use the meat for the humans in the house because it has so little

flavor left and we have a " texture-ist " kid.

Connie H.

[Guest guest]

Connie,

" texture-ist "

I love that word! That is my hubby to a T!

I don't even really have an idea how long this broth actually cooked.

I started it thursday around 5p, it cooked until about 2a then was off

till like 7a and then it cooked till like noon then it went on again

at 5p and then off again around midnight last night to be turned on

again around 11a this morning for a hotter simmer until I strained it

and put it in containers around 2p. So that was about 24 hours of

active simmering and almost 24 hours of steeping in hot water.

The last cook gave it that golden look that you get with good chicken

broth. When I saw it I was immediately reminded of the stuff I crave

when sick. It is fairly beefy and it will really help out my gravies,

although I was surprised that it isn't brown at all. Is that normal?

I vacuum packed the meat to later add to some stew or maybe to flavor

with a good BBQ sauce to make a pulled beef mimic. I gave some to the

dog and she was thrilled.

" Now at the risk of getting fired upon by the good dog owners, I

separate the bones from the meat and pack it for our dog, who loves

this meat over her kibble "

Whatever your reason for feeding kibble, kudos to you to be adding

real foods to it! I used to feed all raw, now I find myself feeding a

lot of dried and cooked foods too. As I was making this broth I was

thinking of stewing some down for the dog too - she's really fond of

the stuff. I guess everyone in this house knows the value of a good

homemade meal.

Sincerely,

Lana M. Gibbons

[Guest guest]

-

>Does anyone actually simmer for 48 hours? If I did that I'd have

>nothing left!

I cook beef stock for 2-3 days, but simmering would be an overstatement. I

try to keep the heat at a level just high enough to prompt a regular but

very slow production of bubbles.

-

[Guest guest]

Lana-

>Anyway... I was pondering if I should skim it off or not. What do you think?

Sorry I'm coming to the discussion late, but if you get a stock skimmer,

you can skim of the foamy stuff, which tends to impart an undesirable

flavor to the stock, without getting rid of much fat at all. Actually, I'm

not positive if it's called a stock skimmer or something else, but it's

like a large, almost flat spoon made of a fine mesh, so it picks up foam

and nasty stuff like that while letting the fat and broth drain back into

the pot.

-

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Pearl " <jp2@s...>

wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> Does anyone actually simmer for 48 hours?

I let chicken stock go for 24 hours, beef stock for 72 hours, as per

the recipes in NT.

If I did that I'd have

> nothing left!

>

Try a lid ;-)

JO

[Guest guest]

[suzanne] I seem to recall her mentioning an indigenous people who

made bone balls and ate them, but I don't remember any particulars.

[MikeP] That's the Sudanese, also one of the few known cultures to eat

rotten meat preferentially, at least in the past. Their climate is

very hot, quite the opposite of the Inuit. Actually, I had a chance

encounter with a guy from Sudan in Brooklyn a few months ago and

broached the topic of extremely fermented meat. He didn't get what I

was talking about at first, but after a few moments he figured it out

and mentioned being aware of such a dish in a different region of

Sudan, as well as remarking on the strong odors involved.

The bone recipes are known from Hamid A. Dirar's encyclopedic and

splendid treatise " The Indigenous Fermented Foods of the Sudan " . I had

that checked out from my local uni library for a long while, but I

don't think I ever got around to transcribing the bone recipes and

posting them anywhere. They are not surprising recipes. It's just

basically a few extra steps beyond normal stock-making and the the

soft balls of small bone particles are used as a flavoring in soups

and sauces, not eaten like a candy bar. It's really not that exotic.

Soft crumbly bones are perfectly reasonable human foods, even if

they're pretty unappealing to me and most people. It's just a

mechanical issue of getting them through the GI tract and the required

labor in preparation. For me, I'll stick with just eating bones from

small fish like most people do.

Never underestimate the power of Onibasu:

http://onibasu.com/archives/nn/21909.html

http://onibasu.com/archives/nn/43610.html

http://onibasu.com/archives/nn/43520.html

Just to throw in two cents on the stock topic, I abandoned any kind of

skimming of fat or the " nasty stuff " at some point, because there's

actually nothing unsuited to eating from the carcasss and fat is of

course valuable and nutritious, so it's crazy to waste it and then

spend a fortune on butter, coconut oil, etc. In fact, the stuff that

seems like undesirable debris is perfectly nutritious. Removing any

portion of the stock is a purely aesthetic issue and strictly

unnecessary for any other reason. I once talked to Sally about this

and she said as much, vouching for the nutritiousness of the sediment

people usually try to eliminate, but acknowledging the culinary and

aesthetic concerns that often justify the practice, most especially in

the cases of clear soups. For me, I like the simplicity of just not

removing anything and I never make clear, delicate soups, but rather

thick, complicated soups and sauces, so the aesthetic issue is not too

significant. The sediment doesn't affect flavor much, just appearance.

Just more " stuff " among a lot of " stuff " .

The type of vinegar doesn't matter at all. It's just to lower the pH

and any other acid will do as well. Vinegar is a good choice because

it doesn't have the extent of heat-labile substances of other common

acidic liquid foods like whey, citrus juice, etc. It's optional and

the quantity is an arbitrary decision.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist

Menschenwerk. (Leopold Kronecker)

[Guest guest]

Mike-

>For me, I like the simplicity of just not

>removing anything and I never make clear, delicate soups, but rather

>thick, complicated soups and sauces, so the aesthetic issue is not too

>significant. The sediment doesn't affect flavor much, just appearance.

>Just more " stuff " among a lot of " stuff " .

I never bother with clear soups either. The way I figure it, if I made a

clear stock, I'd have done something seriously wrong! I do skim the early

froth, though, as that has an impact on the flavor.

-