Re: Leptin and Carb Levels

[Guest guest]

Katy-

Sorry for the delayed response. I've gotten rather behind on my email.

>A little background before my question: When I do the Induction and

>ongoing weight-loss phases of Atkins I have a complete cessation of

>several random problems, such as chronic hyperventilation syndrome,

>sleeping problems, menstruation problems, and I can dramatically

>reduce a number of certain supplements that I require. The big

>problem is that after several weeks, I can't lift weights. My non-

>Atkins bench press, for example, is 5x at 80 lbs, but over the

>course of several weeks of low-carbing, my bench press is reduced to

>about 50-55 pounds and I can't make progress. Now when I start

>eating carbs again, I can eventually build back up to where I was,

>but I lose the benefits of the low-carb diet.

What's the macro-nutrient composition of your diet when you're

low-carbing? You may need more protein. Another good thing to try is to

eat some lean protein shortly after a workout. Protein actually stimulates

insulin pretty effectively, but in this case a bit of an insulin spike can

be useful, aiding incorporation of dietary protein into muscle tissue. I

always eat a half a pound of raw bison liver after my workouts, followed a

little while after by a full meal. Raw liver may not be your cup of tea,

though it is one of the best foods you could possibly eat, but some kind of

lean protein could help a lot. (I say lean in this case because fat will

slow absorption and thus interfere with the purpose of a post-workout

protein snack.) Certainly I've noticed that while I haven't packed on any

kind of dramatic muscle bulk (perhaps in part because I'm still losing

excess fat) I've definitely gotten steadily stronger.

>My choice carbs are potatoes and LF sodas (don't do

>gluten or dairy). So after reading what was posted in Leptin

>summary and previously on the SCD and fasting threads, I'm thinking

>that the potatoes might be the problem when I reintroduce carbs?

Well, yeah, if you have any kind of carb metabolism problems, potatoes are

not a good idea at all. LF sodas are probably unwise too, as from an

insulin perspective, the sugar content of lacto-fermented anything is

unchanged from its unfermented origins. That's why insulin-dependent

diabetics can't reduce their insulin dose when eating yoghurt instead of

milk, for example.

>And after reading that sugar (from both simple or complex carbs)

>causes leptin disturbance, sugar burning, and aging, I got paranoid

>about eating anything because almost everything has *some*

>carbohydrate. So, while I realize that I can't avoid aging, do I

>need to keep my total carbs really, really low and just give up on

>weight lifting or is there some carbs that would be better, leptin-

>wise, and how do I know how much I can eat before I screw up my

>leptin regulation?

Certain berries are good carb foods, at least in moderation, and of course

green vegetables and the like are great. I would advise avoiding dense

carbs, though -- anything starchy or sugary. And if you're interested in

life extension, consider some anti-glycation agents along with the most

nutrient-dense diet (rich in nicely stable saturated fat, of course) that

you're able to consume.

>And while I'm picking your brain, what kind of anti-oxidants are we

>talking? Like taking an antioxidant supplement or just eating a

>normal amount of food containing zinc, vit E, etc?

I'd recommend eating lots of grass-fed organ meats and also supplementing

with a judicious antioxidant regimen. Your brain in particular needs lots

of protection. But you have to be very careful in selecting

anti-oxidants. Vitamin E, for example, is commonly sold is synthetic alpha

tocopherol only, whereas the vitamin E family really includes four

tocopherols and four tocotrienols, and of the tocopherols, the highest dose

should actually be of gamma tocopherol, not alpha. And yet fat-soluble

antioxidants, if you're careful, are among the best supplements you can

possibly take.

-

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> Katy-

>

> Sorry for the delayed response. I've gotten rather behind on my

email.

No prob. I really appreciate you taking time to answer my

questions. I'm learning a lot from the leptin discussions.

> What's the macro-nutrient composition of your diet when you're

> low-carbing? You may need more protein. Another good thing to

try is to

> eat some lean protein shortly after a workout.

I averaged the daily totals from my spreadsheet, it and I got 24.6%

protein, 63.7% fat, and 11.7% carb. (I don't keep track of fiber).

This is fairly representative of most days because I eat nearly the

same thing. Protein standard deviation was 2.5%, for example.

Calories run around 1800-2200. I'm 5'2 " 130 pounds if that

matters. I've always kept my protein in-take the same whether I'm

working out regularly or not. I'm a weenie girl and I didn't think

what I do really required extra protein – 5x2 bench press, and 5x2

dead-lifts 3-4 days per week.

So, ya think like 2oz would be enough to add? Maybe 4? Also, how

does that fit in with meal timing?

> Raw liver may not be your cup of tea,

Um…no. :-)

> Certainly I've noticed that while I haven't packed on any

> kind of dramatic muscle bulk (perhaps in part because I'm still

losing

> excess fat) I've definitely gotten steadily stronger.

That's good to know. It's really hard to find examples of low-

carbers that also make progress lifting weights.

> Well, yeah, if you have any kind of carb metabolism problems,

potatoes are

> not a good idea at all.

Is the idea here to minimize total insulin (except after a workout)

or control when it's released or minimize the number of times it is

released? I realize too much will screw up leptin, but what's too

much? Let's say I eat 60g of carbs, nutrient content aside, is

eating them as berries and greens better than eating them as

potatoes and lf sodas? I was thinking sugar is sugar is sugar

whether it came from fruit, potatoes, vegetables, grains, or…sugar.

(I'm talkin' insulin here, not SCD, unless that applies here.)

I used to have blood sugar problems out the wazoo, but haven't had

any since I did the WD for a few months back whenever it debuted on

this list a year or two ago. I assume I have carb metabolism

problems since I have symptoms associated with eating carbs, even

though I don't have blood sugar problems anymore.

> Certain berries are good carb foods, at least in moderation, and

of course

> green vegetables and the like are great. I would advise avoiding

dense

> carbs, though -- anything starchy or sugary.

How `bout grated beets or sweet potatoes in my kimchi? It's

starchy, but there's not too much and it's dispersed in lower carb

stuff? Or should I just shut-up about the starchy stuff?

This has been burning on my mind since last night. I may have

misread some of this because I had a 5-year-old singing in the

background. I read the Exercising chapter in ML and he says after

aerobic exercise, don't eat until you get a hunger signal and be

sure to eat when you do. I couldn't really decide if I bought what

he was saying or not, but assuming he's right…what exactly is a

hunger signal? Just feeling hungry? I'm eating two meals a day

(10:30am and 6:00, bedtime between 9:30 and 10:00). Around 7:30 or

8:00am I get some strong " hunger signals " (but not low blood

sugar). Should I be eating or is this just part of the transition?

I'm not doing any formal aerobic exercise right now, but it just

made me think about hunger signals.

> And if you're interested in

> life extension, consider some anti-glycation agents along with the

most

> nutrient-dense diet (rich in nicely stable saturated fat, of

course) that

> you're able to consume.

Are we talking anti-glycation agents in food or like carnosine

supplements? I'm not really interested in life extension, but

rather looking and feeling 30 for as long as I live.

> I'd recommend eating lots of grass-fed organ meats and also

supplementing

> with a judicious antioxidant regimen. Your brain in particular

needs lots

> of protection. But you have to be very careful in selecting

> anti-oxidants. Vitamin E, for example, is commonly sold is

synthetic alpha

> tocopherol only, whereas the vitamin E family really includes four

> tocopherols and four tocotrienols, and of the tocopherols, the

highest dose

> should actually be of gamma tocopherol, not alpha. And yet fat-

soluble

> antioxidants, if you're careful, are among the best supplements

you can

> possibly take.

I add a variety of organs every time I grind meat and our family of

6 goes through several pounds a week, so I think I'm okay there, as

long as it doesn't have to be totally raw to be effective. I take

Unique E vitamin E (400mg), and some zinc (but I don't have a good

source for zinc). I used to take coQ-10, but quit because it was

Jarrow and I figured there was as much good stuff as there was bad

stuff. After typing this out this doesn't seem like enough

protection for my brain?

Katy

[Guest guest]

Katy-

>I averaged the daily totals from my spreadsheet, it and I got 24.6%

>protein, 63.7% fat, and 11.7% carb. (I don't keep track of fiber).

I wouldn't totally ignore fiber, as many people apparently have gut

microbes which break it down and make it metabolically available.

>This is fairly representative of most days because I eat nearly the

>same thing. Protein standard deviation was 2.5%, for example.

>Calories run around 1800-2200. I'm 5'2 " 130 pounds if that

>matters.

I don't really have a clue how many calories you should be eating, but if

your weight is where you want it, that's probably about right. And if

you're low-carbing to lose some weight, I certainly wouldn't approach it

via calorie restriction!

>I'm a weenie girl and I didn't think

>what I do really required extra protein ­ 5x2 bench press, and 5x2

>dead-lifts 3-4 days per week.

Protein requirements are really extremely variable. Your supposed

weenieness might be tricking you into thinking you need a lot less protein

than you really do. <g> Or maybe you're eating too much, though that's

unlikely with your strength training drops and plateaus.

>So, ya think like 2oz would be enough to add? Maybe 4? Also, how

>does that fit in with meal timing?

All you can do is experiment. As to meal timing, well, don't snack, that's

for sure, so just eat some more protein as part of your meals and see what

happens.

>Is the idea here to minimize total insulin (except after a workout)

>or control when it's released or minimize the number of times it is

>released?

All of the above, but even after a workout you don't want insulin to go crazy.

> Let's say I eat 60g of carbs, nutrient content aside, is

>eating them as berries and greens better than eating them as

>potatoes and lf sodas?

Heck yeah!

>I was thinking sugar is sugar is sugar

>whether it came from fruit, potatoes, vegetables, grains, or…sugar.

>(I'm talkin' insulin here, not SCD, unless that applies here.)

Well, aside from the digestion issue, which should never be ignored, if you

eat 60g of berries and greens, you're not only getting a lot more nutrition

with those carbs than if you eat them as potatoes, you're also smoothing

out their absorption and conversion to blood sugar. Potatoes hit hard and

fast. LF sodas presumably do too. Greens, hardly, and berries not so much.

>How `bout grated beets or sweet potatoes in my kimchi? It's

>starchy, but there's not too much and it's dispersed in lower carb

>stuff? Or should I just shut-up about the starchy stuff?

That's a decision you'll have to make yourself. I wouldn't recommend it,

but I'm not the word of god. Not quite, anyway. <g>

>I read the Exercising chapter in ML and he says after

>aerobic exercise,

Aerobic shmaerobic. It's highly overrated. Good forms of weight training,

kettlebells, modified circuit training, etc. are worthwhile. A book Chris

recently reviewed, _The Doctor's Heart Cure_, has some interesting

positions on exercise -- basically punctuated intense exercises alternated

with rests.

>I'm eating two meals a day

>(10:30am and 6:00, bedtime between 9:30 and 10:00). Around 7:30 or

>8:00am I get some strong " hunger signals " (but not low blood

>sugar). Should I be eating or is this just part of the transition?

>I'm not doing any formal aerobic exercise right now, but it just

>made me think about hunger signals.

If you're getting hungry at 7:30-8am, I don't see why you're waiting to eat

until 10:30am (unless it's a time problem due to getting kids out the door

for school or something). If you were getting hungry for breakfast after

less than 11 hours it might be cause for concern, but otherwise no. If you

want to make it to 10:30am without prior hunger, though, just add some

saturated fat to your dinner.

>Are we talking anti-glycation agents in food or like carnosine

>supplements?

Carnosine appears to be one of the best supplements you could possibly

take. It has a whole raft of beneficial effects and no drawbacks that I'm

aware of.

>I'm not really interested in life extension, but

>rather looking and feeling 30 for as long as I live.

IMO, calorie restriction as a means of life extension is a fraud, or maybe

a mistake. Probably both. So CR aside, I think just about anything you do

which will improve your health and fitness now will have life-extending

effects.

>I add a variety of organs every time I grind meat and our family of

>6 goes through several pounds a week, so I think I'm okay there, as

>long as it doesn't have to be totally raw to be effective.

Well, there are degrees, but the more raw the better is especially

important with organs. CoQ10, for example, is destroyed by cooking.

>I take

>Unique E vitamin E (400mg), and some zinc (but I don't have a good

>source for zinc).

Unique E is a good formulation except that it's missing

tocotrienols. Carotec has the best tocotrienol supplement I'm aware of off

the top of my head. Zinc supplementation is more complicated. Due to my

various digestive issues, I have definite signs of zinc deficiency despite

eating lots of meat, but too much zinc can be a bad thing too. The

optizinc form (bound with methionine) appears to be the best, but try

finding it without noxious fillers... Here's one caveat about fiber they

never tell you: high-fiber meals drop zinc absorption down to as low as

3%. (Supposedly optizinc is more resistant to that effect, but I don't

know how much.)

>After typing this out this doesn't seem like enough

>protection for my brain?

That's a decision you'll have to make for yourself, but I'd recommend more

fat-soluble antioxidants. Ascorbyl palmitate is most like the best way to

take supplemental vitamin C, as it's the fat-soluble form. Plenty of E

complex (with tocotrienols) is likely a very good idea. Some good CoQ10

can help, particularly if you're cooking your organ meats. R-alpha lipoic

acid is great. And then there are more exotic options.

-

[Guest guest]

Okay, , I've been mulling over several things you said in our

last exchange and I've got a few more questions.

> >I averaged the daily totals from my spreadsheet, it and I got

24.6%

> >protein, 63.7% fat, and 11.7% carb. (I don't keep track of

fiber).

>

> I wouldn't totally ignore fiber, as many people apparently have

gut

> microbes which break it down and make it metabolically available.

I meant that I don't separate fiber from the rest of the carbs. If

fitday.com says I ate 63g carbs, I don't bother subtracting the 13g

of fiber, and keeping a fiberless carb tab. That's what I want to

do, right?

> Protein requirements are really extremely variable. Your supposed

> weenieness might be tricking you into thinking you need a lot less

protein

> than you really do. <g> Or maybe you're eating too much, though

that's

> unlikely with your strength training drops and plateaus.

Here's what still baffles me. Why does increasing carbs help weight

lifting for me? Is there anything that can explain that or is it

more likely that I inadvertently do something else when I raise

carbs, like eat more calories or protein?

> >Is the idea here to minimize total insulin (except after a

workout)

> >or control when it's released or minimize the number of times it

is

> >released?

>

> All of the above, but even after a workout you don't want insulin

to go crazy.

I don't have that much control over when I have time for a workout.

It usually ends up being after dinner. But would the best time be

right before a meal, so you would have an insulin release from the

meal?

> Well, aside from the digestion issue, which should never be

ignored, if you

> eat 60g of berries and greens, you're not only getting a lot more

nutrition

> with those carbs than if you eat them as potatoes, you're also

smoothing

> out their absorption and conversion to blood sugar. Potatoes hit

hard and

> fast. LF sodas presumably do too. Greens, hardly, and berries

not so much.

I've just started reading BTVC. I tested positive for IgA gluten

and casein allergies and eliminated them, except for butter. I've

always thought I had issues with lactose, too. I've always had

stomach problems, especially gas and horrifically stinky flatulence,

even when I was a young kid. So I think I also have some BTVC-type

gut issues, too. I did a tissue-transglutawhatever (I can't spell

it but measures gut damage) and malabsorption test when I first went

gluten-free. I got moderately bad scores on both and last month

(nearly two years later) I have repeated these tests with only a

little improvement on the tissue-trans test, but not much

improvement on the malabsorption test. I don't know exactly what

significance either of these test have or how accurate they are, but

it seems I have some gut issues that aren't improving that much.

I've noticed that certain foods set off the horrifically stinky

flatulence, like potatoes and milk products including cheddar

cheese. Cheddar cheese is lactose-free because it has 0 carbs and

is SCD legal, but when I eat it, other dairy (except butter is okay)

or potatoes, within 20 minutes, I get the horrifically stinky

flatulence. Why? It seems like it should take much longer that

that to reach the intestines for bacteria to feed on.

And, according to the scd, I should someday be able to eat 24-hour

goat yogurt and low-lactose cheese - how will I know it's time to

try again? Or can I just start eating it now, and things will heal

up even while eating it?

> If you're getting hungry at 7:30-8am, I don't see why you're

waiting to eat

> until 10:30am (unless it's a time problem due to getting kids out

the door

> for school or something). If you were getting hungry for

breakfast after

> less than 11 hours it might be cause for concern, but otherwise

no. If you

> want to make it to 10:30am without prior hunger, though, just add

some

> saturated fat to your dinner.

Every morning I'm getting kids ready for school or driving kids to

school until about 8:30am. We try to keep outside activities to a

minimum of 1 per kid, but some days I still don't get home until

after 5:30 so dinner doesn't get served until 6:30. Bedtime is

around 9:30-10:00, so after playing around with the timing, all I

could figure to do on busy days is to eat at 10:30am and 6:30pm. I

thought it would be easiest to keep eating schedules the same every

day. At 7:00am, I was a little hungry so I had a spoonful of

coconut oil and that seemed to help quite a bit. Did that just

count as a meal? It didn't do anything for me, hunger-wise, two

days ago when I took it at dinner.

> Carnosine appears to be one of the best supplements you could

possibly

> take. It has a whole raft of beneficial effects and no drawbacks

that I'm

> aware of.

How does this carnosine look?

http://tinyurl.com/835oz

> Well, there are degrees, but the more raw the better is especially

> important with organs. CoQ10, for example, is destroyed by

cooking.

I looked into CoQ10 a little more and the Carotec brand had one with

coconut oil (instead of the usual vegetable or soy oil). But it

was, like, $$$. Dr. Ron's was also high. Do you have a more

economical source or is it just expensive?

> Unique E is a good formulation except that it's missing

> tocotrienols. Carotec has the best tocotrienol supplement I'm

aware of off

> the top of my head.

Carotec had two E's listed, " The " E and Palm Tocotrienols. Palm

Tocotrienols have the tocotrieols listed, but is looks like E is a

mix of tocopherols and they suggest taking both to get the whole

vitamin E experience. So I would want to add the Palm tocotrienols

to my Unique E regimen or just take the Palm Tocotrienols without

worring about the rest of the complex?

> Zinc supplementation is more complicated. Due to my

> various digestive issues, I have definite signs of zinc deficiency

despite

> eating lots of meat, but too much zinc can be a bad thing too.

The

> optizinc form (bound with methionine) appears to be the best, but

try

> finding it without noxious fillers... Here's one caveat about

fiber they

> never tell you: high-fiber meals drop zinc absorption down to as

low as

> 3%. (Supposedly optizinc is more resistant to that effect, but I

don't

> know how much.)

I was looking at the Carotec catalog and noticed they have zinc

aspartate that appears to be additive free. I also looked at the

optizinc you recommended. I figured you've already done the

research, so I'll ask before I think too much about it – would the

additive-free form of zinc be better than the optizinc? I couldn't

really find much on absorption rates of the different forms, but it

really sounded like optizinc has much better absorption. I test at

near zero levels of zinc and with constant supplementation at 60g

per day for months and months and months I've still never been able

to get it up high enough, and when I raise it a litte, it doesn't

last very long. Is too much unabsorbed zinc bad or just too much in

general, as I seem to need more than many people?

And on the optizinc, some brands listed both the D and L forms of

methionine, and some just the L form. Is this going to matter?

> That's a decision you'll have to make for yourself, but I'd

recommend more

> fat-soluble antioxidants. Ascorbyl palmitate is most like the

best way to

> take supplemental vitamin C, as it's the fat-soluble form. Plenty

of E

> complex (with tocotrienols) is likely a very good idea. Some good

CoQ10

> can help, particularly if you're cooking your organ meats. R-

alpha lipoic

> acid is great. And then there are more exotic options.

This had been interesting reading…what are a few of the more exotic

options?

Katy

[Guest guest]

On 8/29/05, Katy <iowakatybug@...> wrote:

> Here's what still baffles me. Why does increasing carbs help weight

> lifting for me? Is there anything that can explain that or is it

> more likely that I inadvertently do something else when I raise

> carbs, like eat more calories or protein?

Probably because weight lifting burns primarily glycogen, which is

carbohydrate, and not fat. Perhaps over the long haul you could train

your body to restore glycogen from fat as efficiently as it does from

carbohydrate, but at the very least it should not be baffling if you

have trouble weight lifting on low-carb in the short term.

> I don't have that much control over when I have time for a workout.

> It usually ends up being after dinner. But would the best time be

> right before a meal, so you would have an insulin release from the

> meal?

That strikes me as the *worst* possible time to workout. You really

should be eating a meal *after* you workout, so eating after your last

meal essentially precludes that until the next day. I would agree

that working out before a meal would be a good idea.

> I've just started reading BTVC. I tested positive for IgA gluten

> and casein allergies and eliminated them, except for butter.

You might want to try ghee, which is butter minus the milk solids.

Apparently the preference on the GFCFNN list (gluten-free,

casein-free) is for the Purity Farms brand.

> I've noticed that certain foods set off the horrifically stinky

> flatulence, like potatoes and milk products including cheddar

> cheese.

I've noticed this in the past for myself, but I found the worst

problems to be when I drank milk along with eating potatoes. That

spelled out disaster!

> Cheddar cheese is lactose-free because it has 0 carbs and

> is SCD legal, but when I eat it, other dairy (except butter is okay)

> or potatoes, within 20 minutes, I get the horrifically stinky

> flatulence. Why? It seems like it should take much longer that

> that to reach the intestines for bacteria to feed on.

I'm not sure. There could be an immune reaction pre-gut involved, but

in any case, food starts leaking into the intestines immediately. It

might take hours for the stomach to completely empty, but that

emptying is happening continuously. It doesn't just sit in the

stomach for 2-4 hrs and then suddenly get released into the small

intestine at once.

> Carotec had two E's listed, " The " E and Palm Tocotrienols. Palm

> Tocotrienols have the tocotrieols listed, but is looks like E is a

> mix of tocopherols and they suggest taking both to get the whole

> vitamin E experience. So I would want to add the Palm tocotrienols

> to my Unique E regimen or just take the Palm Tocotrienols without

> worring about the rest of the complex?

For what it's worth, red palm oil/butter is super-high in

full-spectrum vitamin E. If you like to use it, it could save you

some money. OTOH, it's not the most appetizing food. But there was a

time when I would eat massive quantities by dipping celery sticks in

it, which did wonders for my skin.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

<chrismasterjohn@g...> wrote:

> For what it's worth, red palm oil/butter is super-high in

> full-spectrum vitamin E. If you like to use it, it could save you

> some money. OTOH, it's not the most appetizing food. But there was

a

> time when I would eat massive quantities by dipping celery sticks in

> it, which did wonders for my skin.

>

> Chris

I absolutely love food *cooked* in palm butter, but I've never eaten

it uncooked. Would applying it directly to the skin have any benefits?

What kind of skin problems did it do wonders for? I've got an annoying

case of dry patches mixed with mild acne that will greatly reduce when

I drop all dairy, clo, and most carbs, but never really goes away.

Katy

[Guest guest]

On 8/29/05, Katy <iowakatybug@...> wrote:

> I absolutely love food *cooked* in palm butter, but I've never eaten

> it uncooked.

I'm not sure at what rate vitamin E is destroyed during cooking, but

I'd suspect it would still be high in vitamin E if not overcooked-- at

least compared to other cooked foods.

> Would applying it directly to the skin have any benefits?

It might, but it would stain all your clothes and make you look like a carrot.

> What kind of skin problems did it do wonders for? I've got an annoying

> case of dry patches mixed with mild acne that will greatly reduce when

> I drop all dairy, clo, and most carbs, but never really goes away.

Eczema.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

> Probably because weight lifting burns primarily glycogen

Katy, I follow the meal timing from Mastering Leptin, and I had the

same experience as you. Can't lift heavy when I'm on " empty " and I'm

pretty sure that feeling that " I'm strong and can do anything " is

when my glycogen and blood sugar " gas tanks " are full.

> carbohydrate, and not fat. Perhaps over the long haul

> you could train

> your body to restore glycogen from fat as efficiently

> as it does from

> carbohydrate, but at the very least it should

> not be baffling if you

> have trouble weight lifting on low-carb in the short term.

I have absolutely felt an improvement in getting

energy when I'm on empty before meals as well as after.

Where I used to have these sudden

drop-off-the-cliff feelings, I now feel like I'm better able to get

energy out of stored fat. It really took a while.

> > I don't have that much control over when I

> have time for a workout.

> > It usually ends up being after dinner.

> But would the best time be

> > right before a meal, so you would have

> an insulin release from the

> > meal?

I'm able to work out before meals if I pay close attention to how

empty I am versus how hard and long I work. Like in the morning

after the 12 hour fast, I can do things at a RPE (rate of perceived

exertion) of 4 or less without a crash. But hard workouts, at least

right now, I like to have in the 2-3 hour window after a meal when I

feel so great.

The one good thing about an after dinner workout is, it says in the

Mastering Leptin book that a brief weight-training session helps you

make the most out of that long overnight fast, and it seems to be

true for me. It's like it uses up the easily-available fuel left over

from the day. That's how I like to think of it anyway.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Katy-

>Okay, , I've been mulling over several things you said in our

>last exchange and I've got a few more questions.

NP!

>I meant that I don't separate fiber from the rest of the carbs. If

>fitday.com says I ate 63g carbs, I don't bother subtracting the 13g

>of fiber, and keeping a fiberless carb tab. That's what I want to

>do, right?

Ah, yes, that's exactly right. I'm extremely skeptical of the whole " net

carbs " concept, even when applied to fiber, though certainly it's a lot

less ridiculous when applied to fiber than sugar alcohols and the like.

>Here's what still baffles me. Why does increasing carbs help weight

>lifting for me? Is there anything that can explain that or is it

>more likely that I inadvertently do something else when I raise

>carbs, like eat more calories or protein?

It could be that your insulin levels are simply too low when low-carbing

for adequate muscle gain. However, as pointed out, the body takes

some time to fully adapt to a low-carb regimen. In fact, to fully restore

performance to regular-carb levels can take up to a year according to what

I've read. So I'd recommend try sticking with it for awhile. That's most

likely what's going on.

>I don't have that much control over when I have time for a workout.

>It usually ends up being after dinner. But would the best time be

>right before a meal, so you would have an insulin release from the

>meal?

Ack. Right after a meal is a horrendous time for a workout. You're

diverting energy from digestion, which is no good, and even impaired

digestion of the meal is also diverting a lot of energy from your

workout. That's particularly noticeable with a low-carb high-fat meal,

since fats digest slowly. A meal after your workout is what you want to

aim for. That way you get a post-workout insulin boost accompanied by all

the nutrients needed by your body to repair the damage and build

muscle. I'd say that's a very important scheduling problem for you to

remedy ASAP.

>Cheddar cheese is lactose-free because it has 0 carbs and

>is SCD legal, but when I eat it, other dairy (except butter is okay)

>or potatoes, within 20 minutes, I get the horrifically stinky

>flatulence. Why? It seems like it should take much longer that

>that to reach the intestines for bacteria to feed on.

All cheese isn't actually SCD-legal, only cheese that you know has been

fermented for a minimum of 60 days. Many storebought cheddars probably

haven't, and the " 0 " on the sugar line of the nutritional information panel

doesn't mean that much, because manipulating serving sizes can allow

manufacturers to round down to zero.

>And, according to the scd, I should someday be able to eat 24-hour

>goat yogurt and low-lactose cheese - how will I know it's time to

>try again? Or can I just start eating it now, and things will heal

>up even while eating it?

Experimentation is often the only way to know. You might want to try to

improve your digestion... or see whether 24-hour goat yoghurt helps in

achieving that goal.

>all I

>could figure to do on busy days is to eat at 10:30am and 6:30pm.

It sounds to me like you might be better off trying a larger breakfast

earlier and a smaller dinner since you go to bed relatively soon after

dinner. There's no reason you can't go longer between breakfast and dinner

if it works for you.

>How does this carnosine look?

>http://tinyurl.com/835oz

No fillers, so it looks fine! However, you're only getting 30g in a bottle

that costs $18.59. That's $0.62/g. Beyond A Century has bulk powder for

$0.52/g and... well, OK, that's the best low-volume deal I can find,

actually, and $0.10/g for encapsulation in gelcaps isn't bad at all. In

fact, the cheapest source I know of is $395 for a kilo, or $0.395/g.

>I looked into CoQ10 a little more and the Carotec brand had one with

>coconut oil (instead of the usual vegetable or soy oil). But it

>was, like, $$$. Dr. Ron's was also high. Do you have a more

>economical source or is it just expensive?

Yeah, finding a good CoQ10 is a rotten problem. I wouldn't recommend Dr.

Ron's, either, because he uses rice bran as a vitamin E source. That gave

me a major case of the runs. I don't have an ideal source. Even

Carotec's, which as you point out is wicked expensive, includes some carob

powder or something like that. One way to go is to just make sure to eat

lots of heart, but it has to be rare or raw, because CoQ10 is quickly

destroyed by cooking.

The only source of pure CoQ10 I know if charges $6k for a kilo. (Yes,

that's $6,000.00!)

>Carotec had two E's listed, " The " E and Palm Tocotrienols. Palm

>Tocotrienols have the tocotrieols listed, but is looks like E is a

>mix of tocopherols and they suggest taking both to get the whole

>vitamin E experience. So I would want to add the Palm tocotrienols

>to my Unique E regimen or just take the Palm Tocotrienols without

>worring about the rest of the complex?

No, the two together would provide the whole family, though not cheaply,

I'm afraid. Palm oil is an alternate way to get some vitamin E, but you'd

have to consume a fair amount of it.

>I was looking at the Carotec catalog and noticed they have zinc

>aspartate that appears to be additive free.

I'm leery of aspartate anything due to its excitotoxicity.

>would the

>additive-free form of zinc be better than the optizinc?

Hard to say. You have to balance the absorption advantage against the

digestive disadvantage, and that's probably different for everyone.

>Is too much unabsorbed zinc bad or just too much in

>general, as I seem to need more than many people?

Offhand I can't think of any reason to worry about unabsorbed zinc itself

-- its excess absorbed zinc that can cause problems, particularly if you

don't have enough copper to balance it. But the lack of absorption is of

course quite troubling, and it suggests that the least-bad form of optizinc

you can find would probably be worth a try. Have you been tested for

calcium, magnesium and potassium levels?

>And on the optizinc, some brands listed both the D and L forms of

>methionine, and some just the L form. Is this going to matter?

I don't know for sure, but this is highly suggestive:

>>The stereoselective kinetics of methionine enantiomers in rats was

>>investigated to evaluate the fraction that converted from D-methionine to

>>the L-enantiomer using a stable isotope methodology. After bolus i.v.

>>administration of D- or L-[2H3]methionine, their plasma concentrations

>>and that of endogenous L-methionine were determined by a stereoselective

>>GC-MS method. L-[2H3]Methionine appeared rapidly after administration of

>>D-[2H3]methionine, whereas D-[2H3]methionine was not detected after

>>administration of L-[2H3]methionine. The fraction of conversion of

>>D-[2H3]methionine into L-[2H3]methionine was estimated using the area

>>under the plasma concentration vs. time curve of L-[2H3]methionine on

>>D-[2H3]methionine administration and total clearance of L-[2H3]methionine

>>on L-[2H3]methionine administration, and that fraction was >90%. This

>>result demonstrates that almost all i.v. administered D-methionine is

>>converted into the L-enantiomer in vivo.

That's from http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/135/8/2001.

It sounds likely that the L form is the only desirable one, but it may be

that the D form is easily converted to the L form and thus isn't a

problem... if these rat results can safely be generalized to humans. When

I've used optizinc in the past, I've mostly stuck to ones which list the L

form only, for whatever that's worth, though the filler issue may be more

important.

Another possibility is zinc sulfate. Like all non-optizinc formulations,

it has relatively crappy absorption, which sounds like an especially

significant problem for you, but it is available in liquid form from

Ethical Nutrients with no added ingredients of any kind except for

distilled water, which might help somewhat with absorption. It's awfully

expensive, though. I haven't tried it myself.

>This had been interesting reading…what are a few of the more exotic

>options?

I think I already mentioned R-ALA, which is great. For exotic, there's

benfotiamine, a synthetic fat-soluble form of thiamine. It's relatively

new and synthetic, so it's a gamble, but it does look promising as an

anti-glycation agent.

-

[Guest guest]

>> I'm extremely skeptical of the whole " net

carbs " concept, even when applied to fiber, though certainly it's a lot

less ridiculous when applied to fiber than sugar alcohols and the like.

<<

I'm totally skeptical to the point of flat out rejecting the whole sugar alcohol

exemption, which IMO is destroying low carb.

However, I feel that the fiber exemption isn't only justified because we don't

digest fiber (debatable) or because fiber is good for us (debatable as to how

good and in what quantities), but for a different reason altogether.

If I set my carb limit at what it is without deducting carbs, it's around 50

grams a day.

But I CANNOT EAT 50 grams of non-fiber carbs. I simply can't. It makes me

insane.

I can, however, eat 35 grams of non-fiber carbs. That's just about my upper

limit. I feel good, I have no cravings, I don't get blood sugary, I'm fine.

If I followed your method, I'd have to say my carb limit is 50 which it's not.

My carb limit simply can't be set without differentiating between fiber and

non-fiber carbs.

I have no opinion on whether the calories in fiber are digestible, or whether we

need as much fiber as " they " say they need (well, actually I have an opinion on

that, but it's irrelevant for the sake of this discussion), but I absolutely do

believe that for low carbers, counting fiber and non-fiber carbs seperately is

valid and in fact, I think it's essential. You can't lump them together and give

yourself a free ride on low-fiber days. Fiber has to be counted separately.

I'd say this is a YMMV thing, but I don't think it is. I belong to many very

large Atkins lists, and so far I've not heard from ANYONE who could combine

fiber and non-fiber carbs to get their carb level, and then ignore the

composition of those carbs afterward and just stick with the carb level.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

http://www.doggedblog.com/

[Guest guest]

>

> > For what it's worth, red palm oil/butter is super-high in

> > full-spectrum vitamin E. If you like to use it, it could save you

> > some money. OTOH, it's not the most appetizing food. But there

was

> a

> > time when I would eat massive quantities by dipping celery sticks

in

> > it, which did wonders for my skin.

> >

> > Chris

>

> I absolutely love food *cooked* in palm butter, but I've never

eaten

> it uncooked. Would applying it directly to the skin have any

benefits?

>

> What kind of skin problems did it do wonders for? I've got an

annoying

> case of dry patches mixed with mild acne that will greatly reduce

when

> I drop all dairy, clo, and most carbs, but never really goes away.

>

> Katy

For the heck of it, why not try zinc oxide ointment?

One time, when visiting back home from college, I sprouted a huge zit

and went looking for something to treat it with in my parent's

bathroom drawers. There wasn't anything specifically to treat a zit

or a wound, but I found zinc oxide ointment and applied it.

Overnight, the zit disappeared. I was amazed.

I learned many years later that acne can be related to

yeast/mold/fungus. And those conditions can be related to zinc

deficiency.

Speaking of zinc, an email buddy in NZ recommends liquid mineral

supplements. Anyone ever found something like that?

[Guest guest]

-

>Speaking of zinc, an email buddy in NZ recommends liquid mineral

>supplements. Anyone ever found something like that?

There are a lot of different of liquid mineral supplements.

One type of exemplified by ConcenTrace, which is sort of a super-contrated

salt water, sometimes with reduced sodium so that other salts are more

prevalent. These can be useful, but the large dose of chloride isn't

necessarily helpful.

Another type is exemplified by Zinc Status from Ethical Nutrients. It's

zinc sulfate dissolved in distilled water. I'm not sure how common this

sort of liquid mineral supplement is.

Another type is exemplified by WaterOz's mineral water supplements in I

believe which mineral ions are electrically dispersed into water. WaterOz

rates its supplements in ppm, not mg, but I believe that ppm can be

converted to mg/lb at the rate of 0.4536, so 1 gallon of 100ppm mineral

water would contain 100*0.4536*8.33 mg, or 377.8488. That means a

tablespoon would provide just about 1.48mg per 100ppm. (The weight of the

mineral will skew this very slightly, but not enough to make a meaningful

difference.)

Which is best? Who really knows. ConcenTrace gives my mom diarrhea. I

haven't tried Zinc Status yet. I've had very interesting results with

WaterOz's zinc water, but the obvious effect isn't a systemic one, so I

can't say how well I was absorbing it. Sooner or later I'll post more on

the subject.

-

[Guest guest]

Christie-

>I'm totally skeptical to the point of flat out rejecting the whole sugar

>alcohol exemption, which IMO is destroying low carb.

Yes, I agree completely.

>If I followed your method, I'd have to say my carb limit is 50 which it's

>not. My carb limit simply can't be set without differentiating between

>fiber and non-fiber carbs.

I'm not saying there's no difference. At the very least, even if it winds

being metabolized completely, fiber slows down absorption of the other

carbs in a fiber-carb food. And the degree of metabolism probably varies

from person to person.

>I'd say this is a YMMV thing, but I don't think it is. I belong to many

>very large Atkins lists, and so far I've not heard from ANYONE who could

>combine fiber and non-fiber carbs to get their carb level, and then ignore

>the composition of those carbs afterward and just stick with the carb level.

I agree, at least up to a point, but this is different from the whole " net

carb " approach. The net carb idea allows unlimited amounts of fiber,

including in isolated supplement/ingredient/additive form. (People also

try to make polydextrose out as fiber, but that too is a separate

conversation.)

-

[Guest guest]

> In fact, to fully restore

> performance to regular-carb levels can take up to a year according

to what

> I've read. So I'd recommend try sticking with it for awhile.

A whole year!!?? I want results now!! A few months ago, I read

through some dragon door archives on low-carbing and there didn't

seem like there were too many people with much success. But if you

and think it's doable, I'll give it some more time.

> Ack. Right after a meal is a horrendous time for a workout.

You're

> diverting energy from digestion, which is no good, and even

impaired

> digestion of the meal is also diverting a lot of energy from your

> workout. That's particularly noticeable with a low-carb high-fat

meal,

> since fats digest slowly. A meal after your workout is what you

want to

> aim for. That way you get a post-workout insulin boost

accompanied by all

> the nutrients needed by your body to repair the damage and build

> muscle. I'd say that's a very important scheduling problem for

you to

> remedy ASAP.

Is there an advantage to either option:

1) first thing in the morning, followed by breakfast which will be

the bigger of the two meals

2) right before dinner, followed by dinner, the smaller meal

How soon after the workout does the meal need to occur? I think I

can do #2, but I'd have to start eating while cooking if the meal

needs to occur soon.

> All cheese isn't actually SCD-legal, only cheese that you know has

been

> fermented for a minimum of 60 days. Many storebought cheddars

probably

> haven't, and the " 0 " on the sugar line of the nutritional

information panel

> doesn't mean that much, because manipulating serving sizes can

allow

> manufacturers to round down to zero.

I remember seeing that now. I was eating organic pasteurized cheese

and regular grocery store cheese before that. The raw cheese that I

now buy for the rest of the family is locally produced raw cheddar

that says " aged for 60 days " . That should theoretically be okay at

some point, right?

> It sounds to me like you might be better off trying a larger

breakfast

> earlier and a smaller dinner since you go to bed relatively soon

after

> dinner. There's no reason you can't go longer between breakfast

and dinner

> if it works for you.

Okay, if I did this, how long can I drag out breakfast?

> No fillers, so it looks fine! However, you're only getting 30g in

a bottle

> that costs $18.59. That's $0.62/g. Beyond A Century has bulk

powder for

> $0.52/g and... well, OK, that's the best low-volume deal I can

find,

> actually, and $0.10/g for encapsulation in gelcaps isn't bad at

all. In

> fact, the cheapest source I know of is $395 for a kilo, or

$0.395/g.

Ooo, thanks. Now why doesn't everyone just sell straight powders

for everything?

> The only source of pure CoQ10 I know if charges $6k for a kilo.

(Yes,

> that's $6,000.00!)

Whoa…I'm suddenly getting inspired to figure out a way to eat raw

heart. Good raw heart recipes, anyone?

> I'm leery of aspartate anything due to its excitotoxicity.

That's a good point. My 5yo is also definitely going to need zinc

supplementation, too, and the blood-brain barrier still

underdeveloped at her age.

> don't have enough copper to balance it. But the lack of

absorption is of

> course quite troubling, and it suggests that the least-bad form of

optizinc

> you can find would probably be worth a try. Have you been tested

for

> calcium, magnesium and potassium levels?

No. Why? For other deficiencies or for too much of something that

competes with Zn?

> I think I already mentioned R-ALA, which is great. For exotic,

there's

> benfotiamine, a synthetic fat-soluble form of thiamine. It's

relatively

> new and synthetic, so it's a gamble, but it does look promising as

an

> anti-glycation agent.

Just out of curiosity, is there any desirable glycation process in

the body? I flipped through my biochem book, but didn't really see

anything.

Thanks, you've just been a wealth of information on these subjects.

Katy

[Guest guest]

>> I agree, at least up to a point, but this is different from the whole " net

carb " approach. The net carb idea allows unlimited amounts of fiber,

including in isolated supplement/ingredient/additive form. (People also

try to make polydextrose out as fiber, but that too is a separate

conversation.) <<

Put this way, I agree. And the polydextrose thing is just a disaster. I know we

all want to have our cake and eat it too ... it's human nature. But this is just

insanity.

Not that I have an opinion or anything. <G>

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

http://www.doggedblog.com/

[Guest guest]

Katy-

>A whole year!!?? I want results now!! A few months ago, I read

>through some dragon door archives on low-carbing and there didn't

>seem like there were too many people with much success. But if you

>and think it's doable, I'll give it some more time.

Here's an article by Barry Groves on that exact subject that I really

recommend.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/athletic_diet.html

In an earlier version, he said it can take up to a year. Now he says this:

" There is just one caveat. It takes time for the body to change from

burning inefficient carbs to burning fats efficiently. You should notice a

marked increase in performance in as little as 2 to 6 weeks on a low-carb,

high-fat diet, but maximum performance may not be reached for several months. "

I don't know whether the revision is more accurate or he was just trying

not to frighten people off, but either way, it should just take patience.

Supplementing your diet with coconut oil could also be useful (and might

well help with the transition) since its medium-chain fatty acids are much

easier to digest and turn into energy, and I myself consume a lot of it

daily (4T at the beginning of each of my two daily meals except on workout

days, when I eat liver by itself before getting to the CO and the rest of

the meal) but it has occurred to me that in the long run it might be

somewhat counterproductive if it prevents the body from fully adapting to

burning long-chain saturated animal fats with maximum efficiency. I'm just

speculating, but it seems plausible since the body very much likes to get

into a rut and stick to doing exactly what it's used to.

As I still have some weight to lose, I'm planning to continue with the

coconut oil until I reach my target body fat percentage. At that point, I

may well decide to begin gradually weaning myself off of it in order to

improve my usage of long-chain saturated fatty acids. Also, it occurs to

me that it might be better in the long term for the body to incorporate

more long-chain saturated fatty acids rather than medium-chain ones where

possible, since long-chain acids are more stable, though there are

undoubtedly places where medium and even short-chain acids are more useful.

>Is there an advantage to either option:

>1) first thing in the morning, followed by breakfast which will be

>the bigger of the two meals

>2) right before dinner, followed by dinner, the smaller meal

I think that's pretty individual, from what I've read. I find that morning

workouts destroy my blood sugar stability for the whole day, whether or not

I've had breakfast first, though I haven't yet managed to try working out

immediately upon rising. But some people swear by them.

>How soon after the workout does the meal need to occur? I think I

>can do #2, but I'd have to start eating while cooking if the meal

>needs to occur soon.

Within 30 minutes seems to be the general advice, but it also depends on

how quickly you get hungry. You shouldn't try to force food down your

protesting gullet, at any rate. <g>

>The raw cheese that I

>now buy for the rest of the family is locally produced raw cheddar

>that says " aged for 60 days " . That should theoretically be okay at

>some point, right?

Yeah, if you can trust the dairy farmers, but I'd still inquire about the

details.

>Okay, if I did this, how long can I drag out breakfast?

Strictly by _Mastering Leptin_, up to an hour. I'm not sure how important

that is, but I do try to stick to it myself. My post-workout dinners

sometimes stretch out further, though, just because I need more food then

and preparing individual courses can take time.

>Ooo, thanks. Now why doesn't everyone just sell straight powders

>for everything?

Most people probably wouldn't want to mess around with powders (you need a

good scale to really know how much of a powder you're taking) and even if

they would, they don't know that bulk powders are available. For some

supplements, the savings are extremely dramatic, so it's a lot more

profitable to sell capsules and tablets. Also, it's a recent development

that supplement manufacturers are required to list all their fillers, so

awareness of the issue is only now starting to grow.

>No. Why? For other deficiencies or for too much of something that

>competes with Zn?

Wanita recently posted a link to a page that discusses people with " four

lows " syndrome -- low levels of zinc, calcium, magnesium and potassium. I

wouldn't swear to its accuracy, but it certainly looks interesting and I

fit a lot of the description -- and apparently people with " four lows " have

trouble absorbing those minerals.

http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/four%20lows.htm

>Just out of curiosity, is there any desirable glycation process in

>the body? I flipped through my biochem book, but didn't really see

>anything.

It may be a matter of perspective, though I'm not up on all the

particulars. might be able to give you a better answer.

That said, there are compounds in the body called glycoproteins which are

formed by attaching a carbohydrate molecule to a protein. They're used in

cell membranes, for immune cell recognition, I think for selective

permeability regulation and other purposes too. The process by which

they're formed is called glycosylation, not glycation, but I'm not sure how

different the two processes really are. Glycosylation is " intentional " in

that it's mediated by enzymes, and thus the exact output is predetermined,

whereas glycation is just the random bonding of a reducing sugar molecule

to a protein molecule, but for all I know it's possible for glycosylation

to become severely disregulated and overactive.

>Thanks, you've just been a wealth of information on these subjects.

You're welcome. It's my pleasure.

-

[Guest guest]

Christie-

>And the polydextrose thing is just a disaster. I know we all want to have

>our cake and eat it too ... it's human nature. But this is just insanity.

Yeah, I agree. These blasted companies duping people into thinking that

products chock full of sugar alcohols and polydextrose are " low carb " have

all but destroyed the low-carb movement. It's very disheartening.

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/29/05, Katy <iowakatybug@...> wrote:

> A whole year!!?? I want results now!! A few months ago, I read

> through some dragon door archives on low-carbing and there didn't

> seem like there were too many people with much success. But if you

> and think it's doable, I'll give it some more time.

*I* have no opinion, because I have no personal experience with it.

That's why I said " perhaps. " What I have learned from personal

experience, though, is that the best and fastest way to build muscle

and strength seems to be pretty bad for the digestive system.

The two-week fast I did really helped to free my psychologically from

the obsession I had with building muscle or retaining it at any costs.

> Is there an advantage to either option:

> 1) first thing in the morning, followed by breakfast which will be

> the bigger of the two meals

> 2) right before dinner, followed by dinner, the smaller meal

This is something that has some variance according to the individual,

but you'd probably find that you do your workout better in the

evening, when your brain is fully " warmed up, " and your coordination,

etc, is better.

> How soon after the workout does the meal need to occur? I think I

> can do #2, but I'd have to start eating while cooking if the meal

> needs to occur soon.

" They " say within an hour, but that's for maximizing muscle growth.

Arnold Shwarzenegger says it's better to wait quite a while and then

eat a mixed meal, because your digestive system basically shuts off

during exercise and takes a while to warm up once it reboots. The

magazines say as close to immediately as possible.

I wouldn't worry about it *too* much. In the grand scheme of things

it's probably not a big deal.

> Whoa…I'm suddenly getting inspired to figure out a way to eat raw

> heart. Good raw heart recipes, anyone?

I used to eat it by smothering it in raw honey overnight, or raw cream

cheese, the latter of which also got some salt before eating. I

always thought it would be great with a honey mustard sauce, but never

got around to trying it.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

,

> Wanita recently posted a link to a page that discusses people

> with " four

> lows " syndrome -- low levels of zinc, calcium, magnesium and

> potassium. I

> wouldn't swear to its accuracy, but it certainly looks

> interesting and I

> fit a lot of the description -- and apparently people with

> " four lows " have

> trouble absorbing those minerals.

>

> http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/four%20lows.htm

Bingo. Me too. I went back and checked my three hair analyses starting in

August 03 and all of them showed exactly this pattern.

As it turns out I'm already taking Ca/Mg in the appropriate amount. I'm

going to add zinc and copper and see what happens. I stopped coffee about

two weeks ago although I still have a morning cup of green tea. Looks like

things are headed in the right direction.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Katy,

> A whole year!!?? I want results now!! A few months ago, I read

> through some dragon door archives on low-carbing and there didn't

> seem like there were too many people with much success. But if you

> and think it's doable, I'll give it some more time.

>

I've made this shift twice and it took about 12 to 16 weeks for me become

aware of the shift. I suddenly woke up one morning realizing that I felt

good again and my energy was normal.

The first time I did it I was working out heavily and tracking my workouts.

I felt like absolute crap in the gym and it seemed as though I couldn't lift

anything at all. After I got over the transition I went back and looked at

my workout logs and saw that I had actually been getting stronger the entire

time even though it felt like I was dying with each lift.

Just be patient, push yourself gently in the gym and it will all come

together for you.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>As it turns out I'm already taking Ca/Mg in the appropriate amount. I'm

>going to add zinc and copper and see what happens.

Not potassium?

-

[Guest guest]

> >As it turns out I'm already taking Ca/Mg in the appropriate

> amount. I'm

> >going to add zinc and copper and see what happens.

>

> Not potassium?

>

He doesn't mention potassium in his treatment protocol on the Web page. Is

there more information somewhere that I should be aware of? How much K are

you taking?

Ron

[Guest guest]

On 8/30/05, RBJR <rbjr@...> wrote:

> As it turns out I'm already taking Ca/Mg in the appropriate amount. I'm

> going to add zinc and copper and see what happens. I stopped coffee about

> two weeks ago although I still have a morning cup of green tea. Looks like

> things are headed in the right direction.

I thought you were already off coffee? Didn't you say you went

through six months of torture to get off it?

I'm using decaf now. Is it the caffeine or the coffee itself that

interferes with mineral uptake?

Chris

--

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[Guest guest]

> > As it turns out I'm already taking Ca/Mg in the appropriate

> amount. I'm

> > going to add zinc and copper and see what happens. I

> stopped coffee about

> > two weeks ago although I still have a morning cup of green

> tea. Looks like

> > things are headed in the right direction.

>

> I thought you were already off coffee? Didn't you say you went

> through six months of torture to get off it?

I have been off and on coffee for the past four years. I quit entirely for

a year. Zero caffeine in 2002. That was the torturous 6 months. Then I

tried to re-introduce it under control in 2003 and found that I couldn't.

So I've started and then quit several times. Part of the problem is that I

love the social aspect of coffee in addition to the taste so that just makes

it harder to give up and is usually what sucks me back in.

So this time I'm giving it up for good. LOL.

I will say this -- now that I'm gluten free I'm able to really experience

how foods affect my body in a way I never could before. I'm guessing that

because there was always this underlying degree of discomfort due to the

effects of the gluten I could never really sort out how other foods were

affecting me. Coffee really whacks with my head so I fully understand the

degree to which I have to give it up.

>

> I'm using decaf now. Is it the caffeine or the coffee itself that

> interferes with mineral uptake?

I do not know about this. Perhaps someone else will chime in.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Probably because weight lifting burns primarily glycogen, which is

>carbohydrate, and not fat.

I've been wondering about this. Wouldn't a low-carber eventually adapt to

burn fat even during weight lifting?

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