Re: Re: Probiotics and Bifidobacterium

[Guest guest]

Colby-

>Interesting, however I am puzzled because isnt this one of the first

>bacteria to colonize the gut of infants from mothers milk?

Yes, but apparently it's supposed to fade away over time.

>Here is

>one of the studies I was considering: " Bifidobacterium was

>significantly decreased and that of Enterobacteriaceae was

>significantly increased compared with that in healthy controls "

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

>cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15188510 & query_hl=1

Unfortunately, there's no enough information in the abstract to really draw

any conclusions IMO. Bifidus is one of those fads that everyone believes

in, just like cholesterol lowering, so who knows what the actual data

really reflects. And maybe the Enterobacteriaceae overgrowth was the only

real issue. I don't know.

>Appl Environ Microbiol. 1995 Sep;61(9):3202-7.

>

>http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/61/9/3202.pdf

Thanks for finding the whole paper!

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[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>>Here is

>>one of the studies I was considering: " Bifidobacterium was

>>significantly decreased and that of Enterobacteriaceae was

>>significantly increased compared with that in healthy controls "

>>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

>>cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15188510 & query_hl=1

>

>Unfortunately, there's no enough information in the abstract to

>really draw

>any conclusions IMO. Bifidus is one of those fads that everyone believes

>in, just like cholesterol lowering, so who knows what the actual data

>really reflects.

What are you basing this opinion on ? It's the first I've heard that

there might be a problem with any of the bifido species, which I understand

are typically quite numerous in the colon.

I didn't read the paper that Colby posted, but did look at the table with

the strains of bacteria *associated* with those at high risk of colon

polyps. Only 2 of the 15 strains listed were bifido strains, and only one is

typically found in commercial probiotic products like Custom Probiotics (and

many others) - b. longum.

Is it not possible that some of these bacteria are present more in folks

prone to polyps for the same reason that cholesterol may be present in folks

more prone to heart disease? Not because cholesterol *causes* heart disease,

but rather is there to repair the damage done to arterial plaque?

Just glancing at the discussion at the end it's interesting to note that

when different human populations changed their diet, their microbial

populations didn't change much and the authors think there might be some

genetic control over our microbial popupalations, which they said varied

quite a bit from individual to individual. It looks like we tend to have our

own distinct millieu. Maybe when that milleu is mocked with, things go down

hill?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>Is it not possible that some of these bacteria are present more in folks

>prone to polyps for the same reason that cholesterol may be present in folks

>more prone to heart disease? Not because cholesterol *causes* heart disease,

>but rather is there to repair the damage done to arterial plaque?

I don't buy into the " all microbes are good and they're just there to detox

you " school of thought, if that's what you're getting at. More generally,

I doubt it. There's enough data suggesting that bifidus ought not stick

around indefinitely that I'm not about to take any supplementally, and I've

also noticed that I don't react well to it and I've heard from many others

who don't either.

-

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>

>

>Suze-

>

>>Is it not possible that some of these bacteria are present more in folks

>>prone to polyps for the same reason that cholesterol may be

>present in folks

>>more prone to heart disease? Not because cholesterol *causes*

>heart disease,

>>but rather is there to repair the damage done to arterial plaque?

>

>I don't buy into the " all microbes are good and they're just there

>to detox

>you " school of thought, if that's what you're getting at.

No, it's not what I was getting at, at all. I'm not sure why you thought

that. I was making an analogy to choesterol because the study you (or

whoever it was) posted did not find any causal relationshipe between bifido

species and polyps, rather it found an *association* in certain populations.

This is, of course, similar to cholesterol situation. I think it's just as

unwise to make claims of causality due to association in this case (bifido

bacteria) as it is in the case of cholesterol. That was my point.

More generally,

>I doubt it. There's enough data suggesting that bifidus ought not stick

>around indefinitely that I'm not about to take any supplementally,

>and I've

>also noticed that I don't react well to it and I've heard from many others

>who don't either.

Hunh, well that is interesting about the data. I've never seen it...do you

have any links? Or is it just something you've come across scanning the web?

Also, you have taken (I think) and recommended Custom Probiotics on this

list and it contains bifidobacteria. Have you changed your mind about this

being a good product that you'd recommend?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>Hunh, well that is interesting about the data. I've never seen it...do you

>have any links? Or is it just something you've come across scanning the web?

I don't have anything handy, but Elaine posted on the subject from time to

time, Dr. Haas had either done some work himself or found research done by

others, and I've come across things from time to time on the web.

>Also, you have taken (I think) and recommended Custom Probiotics on this

>list and it contains bifidobacteria. Have you changed your mind about this

>being a good product that you'd recommend?

I guess maybe I should've explained this when I've previously recommended

Custom Probiotics as a probiotic supplement supplier. I don't recommend

Harry's CP-1 blend, which is largely bifidus. But he sells individual

strains separately as pure freeze-dried bacteria, and I've had excellent

experiences with those.

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