Maximum Muscle, Minimum Fat: the first annoyance already in the bag

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

> That sounds like a disaster, and elsewhere he says that after

exercise, one

> should eat some protein! Not much, though: just

>

> >a small amount.

Yes, Ori says if you workout, you should eat a small

something-something after. Specifically, his powder product, " Warrior

Milk. " Or one of his Warrior bars. But, yes, even before he was

peddling that stuff, he said one should have a post-workout snack. Or

a pre-workout snack. To further aggravate you, while he never says so

directly in the text, _The Warrior Diet_ has an extremely

low-fat/no-fat slant. All the recipes are heavy on egg whites and

virtually no fat.

Last I heard, Ori just eats a little fruit throughout the day and is

otherwise fueled by espresso.

I think, bottom line, he says to eat as little as you can get by

with-- preferably raw--throughout the day. If you train, you should

have a recovery meal of protein. was snacking on kimchi during

the day. Also sipping on a massive shake made of eggs and vco for a

while.

>

> Since starting to work out again, my need for food has dramatically

> increased, so I'd love to concentrate my eating in one part of the

day and

> reap a metabolic benefit besides, but this is sounding very poorly

thought

> out -- and poorly edited, too. Any Warrior Dieters care to decipher or

> decode or otherwise explain this for me?

It works for me, although I'm still struggling to lose fat. The

benefits I've seen are mainly resolving hypoglycemic incidents and not

fussing about preparing and packing food. I love not carrying around a

bunch of little snacks and meals and mason jars all the time.

>

> And while I'm on the subject, what on earth do you do when you're

not at

> home for your nightly overeating?

I don't really " overeat " so much as have a generous meal and not

concern myself with worrying that I'm eating too much. So it's very

relaxing. Truly, the overeating can just be in contrast to the

undereating phase. One doesn't have to eat a heroic amount of food

but just enough to reach satiety and not be hungry the next morning.

What's important--for me--is too make sure and eat enough that I'm

not hungry the next morning. My appetite is actually lighter than it

used to be. I think it's because my stomach gets empty in the day and

the food just feels more physically filling now. I don't eat out much

anymore, but resto portions are so big anyway, for me, that it's

adequate. But you are a guy, and the guys on this list are some big

eaters, so I wonder what they have to say.

I guess rich people can afford to eat a

> 90,000-calorie restaurant meal, but I sure can't. And besides, what if

> you're out to see a movie or something? Do you have to bring a

pound of

> pemmican along and quietly munch away in the dark? What if it's a

really

> good movie and you don't want to be distracted by gorging

> yourself?

You go to the movies at dinnertime? Yeah, that's troublesome. I'm

conditioned to eat about six now, so I need to think ahead and make

adjustments because I'm prone to impulsively eating sweets when my

blood sugar goes down. And I start looking around for food at six. I

just eat a little vco, now, throughout the day, when I feel a dip. Is

easy for me b/c I'm a massage therapist, so I always have a jar with

near. Is another tip I got from Chris.

(Besides, if my experiments to date and my recent order of a

> pemmican sampler from Grassland Beef are any guide, I can't imagine

> willingly eating even a gram of pemmican, let alone an entire

> overeating-phase meal. Yuck!)

So, are you saying it was gross? Why would someone need food at the

movies?

B.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:05:43 -0500

Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> In my continuing efforts to make some sort of progress with my health and

> fitness, I decided to give Hofmekler a shot, and already, just a few pages

> in, there's an internal contradiction.

>

> At the end of the first full paragraph on page 8, he says this:

>

> >To take advantage of this powerful dietary cycle and to avoid metabolic

> >decline and muscle breakdown, you should always fully control undereating

> >and should never exceed more than 18 hours of undereating.

>

> OK, quite clear. Except that on the last paragraph of the very same page

> he contradicts himself:

>

> >Undereating on a daily basis should last for 20 hours followed by four

> >hours of nourishment from a main meal.

>

> Never exceed 18 hours, but make it 20 hours on a daily basis? And it's not

> like 18 hours is an isolated typo, either. It's repeated on page 10, and

> maybe elsewhere too. In fact, on page 10 he muddies the waters even further!

>

> >To be effective, the undereating phase should last between 10 and 16 hours.

Yes we were puzzled by this back when the WD was a hot thread. I think

most of us just came to the conclusion that the 20/4 split was best

since he had a pie chart on his website illustrating that time frame.

I have toyed with it on occasion stretching the feasting period out to

five and even six hours. I have also been toying with the one day

feasting/one day fasting that he mentions some people do in the WD and

which more closely resembles the feast fasting studies. All in all

though the 20/4 breakdown works well for me.

> He also says one should avoid insulin spikes during undereating periods,

> but that

>

> >undereating means minimizing your food consumption to mainly low-glycemic

> >fruits and vegetables or their juices.

>

> That sounds like a disaster,

It is for some and most of us, at least those posting, abandoned that

approach. I don't know how closely you followed the thread but many

people modified the undereating phase to include oils, bone broths, meat,

kefir, etc. Still undereating but choosing foods more in tune with our

personal dietary approaches.

> and elsewhere he says that after exercise, one

> should eat some protein! Not much, though: just

>

> >a small amount.

Personally, I don't pay much attention to the latest bodybuilding ideas

about workout nutrition, as they constantly change and cycle. I just do

what works for me and I have never worried about a post workout meal.

Maybe the science is sound and maybe it isn't and maybe I would be more

into it if I was a competitive bodybuilder, but I just don't see this as

critical to the WD or building muscle and strength for anyone outside of

that world.

> Since starting to work out again, my need for food has dramatically

> increased, so I'd love to concentrate my eating in one part of the day and

> reap a metabolic benefit besides, but this is sounding very poorly thought

> out -- and poorly edited, too. Any Warrior Dieters care to decipher or

> decode or otherwise explain this for me?

I think you need to lot at the WD/Ori the way you might look at Atkins,

great in the broad strokes but greatly in need of being NT-fied for

application to many on this list.

The concept works for me but with NT modifications. Especially when I

eat a LOT at the feast meal I can go the whole next day without any food

and still be quite energized, even when performing intense exercise.

I think Ori is on to a good thing, both for social and metabolic reasons,

but still he doesn't have a NT/Price approach at the micro-level, and so

we need to adjust things accordingly when using his concepts.

> And while I'm on the subject, what on earth do you do when you're not at

> home for your nightly overeating? I guess rich people can afford to eat a

> 90,000-calorie restaurant meal, but I sure can't.

Overeating is relative actually, and I find now that I get full a lot

faster than when I first started. While I don't eat out much anymore

typical restaurant portions around here at the places I would eat for

health reasons (mostly steakhouses and ethnic restaurants) are quite

large.

Keep in mind that the WD is quite flexible, and if you find yourself in

a situation that you can't stick to it, don't. Its not the end of the

world and probably will have minimal impact on the overall effectiveness of

the WD, at least that has been my experience.

> And besides, what if

> you're out to see a movie or something? Do you have to bring a pound of

> pemmican along and quietly munch away in the dark? What if it's a really

> good movie and you don't want to be distracted by gorging

> yourself?

Eat after? and maybe eat a little something something to tide you over

during the movie?

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

Quoting <slethnobotanist@...>:

> Overeating is relative actually, and I find now that I get full a lot

> faster than when I first started. While I don't eat out much anymore

> typical restaurant portions around here at the places I would eat for

> health reasons (mostly steakhouses and ethnic restaurants) are quite

> large.

I agree there. And if it's not enough, I can eat more when I get home.

> Keep in mind that the WD is quite flexible, and if you find yourself in

> a situation that you can't stick to it, don't. Its not the end of the

> world and probably will have minimal impact on the overall effectiveness

> of the WD, at least that has been my experience.

That hasn't been my experience. I usually have digestive trouble after

eating a significant amount of food during the day. In fact, I attribute

(perhaps incorrectly, I'll grant) the stomach infection which has plagued

me for the last two weeks to eating during the day, while my low stomach

acid levels provided a hospitable environment for bacteria.

--

Berg

bberg@...

[Guest guest]

-

>Yes, Ori says if you workout, you should eat a small

>something-something after. Specifically, his powder product, " Warrior

>Milk. " Or one of his Warrior bars.

Warrior Milk!?!??! Bars? Holy #*@ & !!! I just looked at the ingredients

of those things and I almost died of syndrome X just from reading

them! Rice syrup? Malt extract? Caramel color? Jeez!

>To further aggravate you, while he never says so

>directly in the text, _The Warrior Diet_ has an extremely

>low-fat/no-fat slant. All the recipes are heavy on egg whites and

>virtually no fat.

I'd heard about the low-fat slant of the book, which is one reason I never

bought it, but so far in MMMF he's alluded to high-fat meals having some

real value. I haven't had time to get that far in, though.

>Last I heard, Ori just eats a little fruit throughout the day and is

>otherwise fueled by espresso.

Oh really? I thought someone mentioned that he'll sometimes eat half a

roast chicken during the day, though, and since he recommends protein after

workouts, I assumed he eats some kind of meat... unless he's dumb enough to

eat his own products, which I doubt. I'm sure Atkins didn't eat his crap,

and I bet Sears doesn't eat his, for example. Though I guess you never know.

>It works for me, although I'm still struggling to lose fat.

You're... well, we only met for a couple minutes, but you must be talking

ounces.

> The

>benefits I've seen are mainly resolving hypoglycemic incidents

Having severe hypoglycemia which has only been treatable so far by eating

large, very fatty low-carb meals starting in the morning or midday, that

sounds very promising to me. I'd love to be able to worry less about my

blood sugar.

>One doesn't have to eat a heroic amount of food

>but just enough to reach satiety and not be hungry the next morning.

> What's important--for me--is too make sure and eat enough that I'm

>not hungry the next morning.

Well, that's very important for me too. If my blood sugar crashes during

the night, the whole next day is ruined. So last night, for example, I ate

a large yoghurt-cream shake, probably a pint of cream with six egg yolks,

and then about an hour or so later over a pound of hamburger with cheese

and a butter sauce. Granted, I'd been experimenting with eating less

during the day, but like I said, my need for food has recently been prodigious.

>I don't eat out much

>anymore, but resto portions are so big anyway, for me, that it's

>adequate.

I hardly ever eat out anymore either, but I don't find restaurant portions

that big, particularly once I eliminate the starch. A hamburger with no

bun and no fries is more like an appetizer than a meal, and sashimi...

well, I have no idea how much sashimi I'd have to eat to feel full. <g>

>You go to the movies at dinnertime? Yeah, that's troublesome.

In my book there's no such thing as a bad time to see a good movie, but

when I go with other people, yeah, often enough it's in the evening, and if

eating WD-style is supposed to be spread out over four hours, say from

7-11, going out to do anything seems likely to pose problems. Today, for

example, I'm going to a wedding reception at 7. It's likely to last into

the wee hours of the morning or beyond, so I guess I'm just going to eat as

much food as I can possibly stuff into myself before heading out.

> I'm

>conditioned to eat about six now, so I need to think ahead and make

>adjustments because I'm prone to impulsively eating sweets when my

>blood sugar goes down. And I start looking around for food at six. I

>just eat a little vco, now, throughout the day, when I feel a dip. Is

>easy for me b/c I'm a massage therapist, so I always have a jar with

>near. Is another tip I got from Chris.

Do you go to bed fairly early, then? I find I have to eat pretty close to

bedtime in order to have enough food to last through the night. I'm not

actually hungry yet, so I guess that's a quasi-WD effect at work (I've

often noticed not needing to eat until midday, anyway, when I eat a really

large dinner) but I was eating all the way up through about 11:30. And

plain VCO... I guess I could train myself not to gag, but I tried eating it

off a spoon a couple times, and it didn't work.

>So, are you saying it was gross? Why would someone need food at the

>movies?

Yeah, Grassland's pemmican is hideous, maybe even more so than my own

efforts. As for eating at the movies, I just meant that if you're supposed

to eat a relatively large amount of food over the course of four hours or

so in the evening, a 2-hour movie plus the time it takes to get there and

back (plus incidentals like going out before or after) would seem to pose a

fairly large problem.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>Yes we were puzzled by this back when the WD was a hot thread. I think

>most of us just came to the conclusion that the 20/4 split was best

>since he had a pie chart on his website illustrating that time frame.

You mean there's the same contradiction in _The Warrior Diet_? I followed

those discussions, though I don't remember the time confusion. I don't

remember any real discussion of MMMF, though.

>Personally, I don't pay much attention to the latest bodybuilding ideas

>about workout nutrition, as they constantly change and cycle. I just do

>what works for me and I have never worried about a post workout meal.

>Maybe the science is sound and maybe it isn't and maybe I would be more

>into it if I was a competitive bodybuilder, but I just don't see this as

>critical to the WD or building muscle and strength for anyone outside of

>that world.

So you don't eat anything post-workout? I know that in the past and still

today I always find myself having to eat something soon

after. Bodybuilding ideas and whatnot can rot as far as I'm concerned, but

it does seem logical that after heavily stressing one's muscles some

protein would be useful, and certainly my blood sugar level always demands

food.

>I think you need to lot at the WD/Ori the way you might look at Atkins,

>great in the broad strokes but greatly in need of being NT-fied for

>application to many on this list.

That makes sense, and I'd certainly had the sense that WD followers here

were doing exactly that, but then in MMMF he seems to endorse dietary fat

in a way he apparently didn't in WD, though I haven't gotten far enough in

to get the details.

>Eat after? and maybe eat a little something something to tide you over

>during the movie?

Well, that's the thing -- unless the WD changes things radically, when I

get really hungry, there's no such thing as tiding myself over. If I don't

eat enough, I'm in trouble.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>That hasn't been my experience. I usually have digestive trouble after

>eating a significant amount of food during the day. In fact, I attribute

>(perhaps incorrectly, I'll grant) the stomach infection which has plagued

>me for the last two weeks to eating during the day, while my low stomach

>acid levels provided a hospitable environment for bacteria.

I don't know, but it seems to me that if your stomach isn't (a) maintaining

adequate protective acidity between meals and ( secreting enough acid to

digest food on demand at whatever time of day you eat there's something

else going on that you should look into.

-

[Guest guest]

Jafa-

>What is MMMF and who wrote it? Is it similar to the

>Warrior Diet. If not, how does it differ?

It's _Maximum Muscle, Minimum Fat_, and it's written by Ori Hofmekler, the

author of _The Warrior Diet_. It's meant to lay out the science behind the WD.

>Also, you mentioned there are contradictory items in

>his book. Does he have a website where you could

>write to him and possibly get an answer to this?

I suppose I could try writing to him once I finish the book, but I imagine

he gets boatloads of email.

-

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Idol [mailto:Idol@...]

> -

> >That hasn't been my experience. I usually have digestive

> trouble after

> >eating a significant amount of food during the day. In fact, I

> >attribute (perhaps incorrectly, I'll grant) the stomach

> infection which

> >has plagued me for the last two weeks to eating during the

> day, while

> >my low stomach acid levels provided a hospitable environment

> for bacteria.

>

> I don't know, but it seems to me that if your stomach isn't

> (a) maintaining adequate protective acidity between meals and

> ( secreting enough acid to digest food on demand at

> whatever time of day you eat there's something else going on

> that you should look into.

Are you sure? I've always assumed that it was just an adaptation to

infrequent eating, for the same reason that one generally doesn't take HCl

supplements between meals.

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Berg [mailto:bberg@...]

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Idol [mailto:Idol@...] I don't know, but

> > it seems to me that if your stomach isn't

> > (a) maintaining adequate protective acidity between meals and

> > ( secreting enough acid to digest food on demand at

> whatever time of

> > day you eat there's something else going on that you should

> look into.

>

> Are you sure? I've always assumed that it was just an adaptation to

> infrequent eating, for the same reason that one generally doesn't take

> HCl supplements between meals.

On second thought, " Are you sure? " probably isn't the best way to respond to

a statement that starts with " I don't know, but it seems to me... "

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>Oh really? I thought someone mentioned that he'll sometimes eat half a

>roast chicken during the day, though, and since he recommends protein after

>workouts, I assumed he eats some kind of meat... unless he's dumb enough to

>eat his own products, which I doubt. I'm sure Atkins didn't eat his crap,

>and I bet Sears doesn't eat his, for example. Though I guess you never

know.

He said that in an interview. As to the products, he does say that it is

preferred that you eat whole foods, but they are for convenience when needed.

However, I fail to see how they approximate whole foods. I found a fruit bar

in a store yesterday that had nothing but fruit in it, which is what Ori

says you should eat during the day, no need for rice syrup. I noticed that in

the undereating bar he took my idea of using MCTs during the undereating

phase, but I'm not sure why, if he wants to avoid insulin spikes, he

includes so

much more sugar than MCT fat.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:47:06 -0500

Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

> >Yes we were puzzled by this back when the WD was a hot thread. I think

> >most of us just came to the conclusion that the 20/4 split was best

> >since he had a pie chart on his website illustrating that time frame.

>

> You mean there's the same contradiction in _The Warrior Diet_? I followed

> those discussions, though I don't remember the time confusion. I don't

> remember any real discussion of MMMF, though.

Yup, its there. I think was the only one who talked about MMMF.

> >Personally, I don't pay much attention to the latest bodybuilding ideas

> >about workout nutrition, as they constantly change and cycle. I just do

> >what works for me and I have never worried about a post workout meal.

> >Maybe the science is sound and maybe it isn't and maybe I would be more

> >into it if I was a competitive bodybuilder, but I just don't see this as

> >critical to the WD or building muscle and strength for anyone outside of

> >that world.

>

> So you don't eat anything post-workout?

Not usually. I do drink a lot after a workout and these days coconut

water has become a favorite although I haven't worked out lately.

> I know that in the past and still

> today I always find myself having to eat something soon

> after. Bodybuilding ideas and whatnot can rot as far as I'm concerned, but

> it does seem logical that after heavily stressing one's muscles some

> protein would be useful, and certainly my blood sugar level always demands

> food.

Oh yes it does seem logical. My only point was that it is something

which I think is an individual thing, not an essential for everyone who

works out. My guess would be that some of us might need something

immediately and others might be able to wait several hours. And I have

always wondered just how useful something is immediately to our muscles

if it requires going through the digestive process before our body can

utilize it.

> >I think you need to lot at the WD/Ori the way you might look at Atkins,

> >great in the broad strokes but greatly in need of being NT-fied for

> >application to many on this list.

>

> That makes sense, and I'd certainly had the sense that WD followers here

> were doing exactly that, but then in MMMF he seems to endorse dietary fat

> in a way he apparently didn't in WD, though I haven't gotten far enough in

> to get the details.

I don't recall his food biases from WD since I was mostly struck with

the concept and simply applied it to my NT style diet.

> >Eat after? and maybe eat a little something something to tide you over

> >during the movie?

>

> Well, that's the thing -- unless the WD changes things radically, when I

> get really hungry, there's no such thing as tiding myself over. If I don't

> eat enough, I'm in trouble.

Gotcha. When I eat a LOT at the feast meal, it does change things, at

least for me. I don't recall if before WD I needed a post workout meal

sooner rather than later. But certainly all the food lets me go a very

long period of time without any real hunger, even when intensely

exercising.

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:19:33 -0800, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> Oh yes it does seem logical. My only point was that it is something

> which I think is an individual thing, not an essential for everyone who

> works out. My guess would be that some of us might need something

> immediately and others might be able to wait several hours. And I have

> always wondered just how useful something is immediately to our muscles

> if it requires going through the digestive process before our body can

> utilize it.

I always consume something post-workout, although one study found that

eating something within an hour pre-workout is 2.5 times as effective

as post-workout for muscle-building.

For what it's worth, I was flipping through Arnold's new encyclopedia

of bodybuilding, and he opposes the post-workout meal. He says that

it's a fad, and that the body's digestive system is shut down during

exercise and takes a little while to turn back on. He says you should

wait a little while and then eat " a balanced meal. "

Interestingly, he also opposes mass gaining drinks and protein powders

and such. He said that he always made his own protein drinks from

eggs, yogurt, and honey, so he " would know exactly what was in them. "

Chris

[Guest guest]

-

>Oh yes it does seem logical. My only point was that it is something

>which I think is an individual thing, not an essential for everyone who

>works out. My guess would be that some of us might need something

>immediately and others might be able to wait several hours.

Certainly possible.

> And I have

>always wondered just how useful something is immediately to our muscles

>if it requires going through the digestive process before our body can

>utilize it.

There's all kinds of signaling going on from the moment you put food in

your mouth, though -- possibly even starting when you smell food -- so the

body could be deciding which metabolic path to follow depending on whether

that signaling happens even if the food itself won't really be available

for awhile.

>Gotcha. When I eat a LOT at the feast meal, it does change things, at

>least for me.

In a recent post you mentioned eating less than you used to at your feast

meals. I remember the enormous dinners you described back when the WD was

first discussed at length here. Would you mind giving a little more detail

on your smaller current details? I'm just trying to get a sense of what to

expect, quantity-wise.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>I always consume something post-workout, although one study found that

>eating something within an hour pre-workout is 2.5 times as effective

>as post-workout for muscle-building.

>

>For what it's worth, I was flipping through Arnold's new encyclopedia

>of bodybuilding, and he opposes the post-workout meal. He says that

>it's a fad, and that the body's digestive system is shut down during

>exercise and takes a little while to turn back on. He says you should

>wait a little while and then eat " a balanced meal. "

This doesn't seem to make sense, though, because if you eat shortly before

working out, your body will be diverting energy to digestion, and if you do

work out anyway, your body will have to divert energy away from digestion

to support the workout, meaning (I'd think) that digestion would be

impaired. I suppose if you're talking a really small snack that might not

be the case, but I just worked out and now I'm eating about 10 ounces of

meat with some butter. It'll be awhile before I'd be ready for more exercise.

>Interestingly, he also opposes mass gaining drinks and protein powders

>and such. He said that he always made his own protein drinks from

>eggs, yogurt, and honey, so he " would know exactly what was in them. "

Well, that's certainly good advice, though people with carb problems should

almost certainly avoid the honey. (For that matter, I doubt anyone should

be eating tons and tons of honey or any other source of fructose.)

-

[Guest guest]

-

> > I don't know, but it seems to me that if your stomach isn't

> > (a) maintaining adequate protective acidity between meals and

> > ( secreting enough acid to digest food on demand at

> > whatever time of day you eat there's something else going on

> > that you should look into.

>

>Are you sure? I've always assumed that it was just an adaptation to

>infrequent eating, for the same reason that one generally doesn't take HCl

>supplements between meals.

I don't see how one follows from the other. One doesn't generally take HCl

supplements between meals because most people either have normal HCl

production (and therefore adequate inter-meal stomach acidity) or don't

realize that they should. But the stomach ought to respond to the stimulus

of food whenever food arrives. If it's not, something bad is happening.

-

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:25:59 -0500, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

>

> Chris-

>

> >I always consume something post-workout, although one study found that

> >eating something within an hour pre-workout is 2.5 times as effective

> >as post-workout for muscle-building.

> >

> >For what it's worth, I was flipping through Arnold's new encyclopedia

> >of bodybuilding, and he opposes the post-workout meal. He says that

> >it's a fad, and that the body's digestive system is shut down during

> >exercise and takes a little while to turn back on. He says you should

> >wait a little while and then eat " a balanced meal. "

>

> This doesn't seem to make sense, though, because if you eat shortly before

> working out, your body will be diverting energy to digestion, and if you do

> work out anyway, your body will have to divert energy away from digestion

> to support the workout, meaning (I'd think) that digestion would be

> impaired. I suppose if you're talking a really small snack that might not

> be the case, but I just worked out and now I'm eating about 10 ounces of

> meat with some butter. It'll be awhile before I'd be ready for more

> exercise.

Did you mean Arnold's advice didn't make sense or the study that found

eating before workout more effective than after didn't make sense?

Arnold's advice wasn't to eat before-- just to not eat immediately after.

As for the study, it found what it found. My point of view is that

much of the food would be digested, and therefore available *during*

the workout, as well as immediately afterward. I don't think they

were using " meals. " But snacks-- and perhaps more quickly digested

liquid snacks, I don't know (I just read a magazine article.)

I agree with what you said to -- the insulin system is begun

when the food is cooking and you smell it. Beginning the insulin

system, regardless of how much protein is available, would inhibit any

exercise-induced cortisol, prevent muscle breakdown, and initiate the

growth cycle.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:11:26 -0500

Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:19:33 -0800, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

>

> > Oh yes it does seem logical. My only point was that it is something

> > which I think is an individual thing, not an essential for everyone who

> > works out. My guess would be that some of us might need something

> > immediately and others might be able to wait several hours. And I have

> > always wondered just how useful something is immediately to our muscles

> > if it requires going through the digestive process before our body can

> > utilize it.

>

> I always consume something post-workout, although one study found that

> eating something within an hour pre-workout is 2.5 times as effective

> as post-workout for muscle-building.

Yeah I got burnt-out on the various studies back when I read the

bodybuilding mags religiously. They struck me as trendy and faddish. So

since I wasn't training for any competition and it wasn't necessary that

I have maximum muscularity coupled with extreme vascularity coupled with

a lat spread that could dim the lights ad infinitum ad nauseum, I

decided to do what works best for me.

As I was later to learn, that is what most bodybuilders (before steroids)

did anyway. I also found that most of the old time bodybuilders were

actually eating healthy diets, not like these modern folks.

One of my all time favorites is Bill Pearl. The guy looks absolutely

incredible for his age (mid 70's), and actually eats real food. Puts

Jack LaLanne to shame in the looks department. I believe he is a

lacto-ovo " vegetarian " .

Below is a 2002 photo which doesn't do him justice since he is fully

clothed:

http://snipurl.com/dh0i

> For what it's worth, I was flipping through Arnold's new encyclopedia

> of bodybuilding, and he opposes the post-workout meal. He says that

> it's a fad, and that the body's digestive system is shut down during

> exercise and takes a little while to turn back on. He says you should

> wait a little while and then eat " a balanced meal. "

>

> Interestingly, he also opposes mass gaining drinks and protein powders

> and such. He said that he always made his own protein drinks from

> eggs, yogurt, and honey, so he " would know exactly what was in them. "

I have his original encyclopedia and I did find it helpful at the time.

I used to make a similar drink with eggs, milk, honey, and wheat germ or

wheat germ oil.

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

>> One of my all time favorites is Bill Pearl. <<

Me too!!!! I use one of his books all the time... I think it's called

Getting Stronger.

Christie

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:20:08 -0500

Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> > And I have

> >always wondered just how useful something is immediately to our muscles

> >if it requires going through the digestive process before our body can

> >utilize it.

>

> There's all kinds of signaling going on from the moment you put food in

> your mouth, though -- possibly even starting when you smell food -- so the

> body could be deciding which metabolic path to follow depending on whether

> that signaling happens even if the food itself won't really be available

> for awhile.

Good point.

> >Gotcha. When I eat a LOT at the feast meal, it does change things, at

> >least for me.

>

> In a recent post you mentioned eating less than you used to at your feast

> meals. I remember the enormous dinners you described back when the WD was

> first discussed at length here. Would you mind giving a little more detail

> on your smaller current details? I'm just trying to get a sense of what to

> expect, quantity-wise.

Yeah I decided I would let have the title of king of the porkers,

LOL, although according to Suze I never ate as much as him anyway.

The main difference is that I don't eat as many carbs as I once did to

end the meal or start off in the first part with some kind of snack

while preparing everything else.

In the past it wasn't unusual for me to finish a meal with two large

baked yams soaking with butter and sprinkled with nutmeg and cinnamon. I

don't do that anymore not because I don't want to but because I'm just

stuffed a lot sooner.

My last full meal (its Lent):

7 pieces of chicken (thighs) cooked with butter. It would have been

eight but my brother confiscated one (the chicken was on sale, lol)

4 eggs

kimchi

potatoes fried in palm oil

beer (or it might have been wine)

The night before was the same except in place of the chicken I had a

pound of ground beef smothered with onions sauteed in butter and covered

with mashed avocado.

I used to start my feast with dairy (milk/kefir) but haven't had any in

awhile.

Another thing, at least for me, is that WDing is very social. And since

I don't have anyone to eat with and don't generally do it over the 4

hour period anymore (except the beer or wine), I don't eat as much.

In the ideal WD world, I enjoyed the staggered courses, the camaraderie,

the good talk, and the slow pace of a nicely prepared meal. Now its just

woof down what I can while briefly watching the boob tube before bedtime,

LOL!

And yes I have always ignored Ori's advice about allowing at least a

couple of hours between mealtime and bedtime. Nor do I necessarily

follow the order of consumption he recommends.

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Did you mean Arnold's advice didn't make sense or the study that found

>eating before workout more effective than after didn't make sense?

Sorry, the bit about eating shortly before working out. Waiting a little

while after a workout sounds plausible, though it'd be nice to see some

hard data on how quickly digestion can restart after exercise. I've

generally been taking some time to prepare food afterwards, so I guess I've

been OK in that department.

>I agree with what you said to -- the insulin system is begun

>when the food is cooking and you smell it. Beginning the insulin

>system, regardless of how much protein is available, would inhibit any

>exercise-induced cortisol, prevent muscle breakdown, and initiate the

>growth cycle.

Which is part of why I don't see why carbs are so necessary, especially

when you consider that protein also stimulates insulin. In fact, since

insulin's effect depends partly on what's at hand, it seems to me it would

be better to eat protein and NOT carbs after a workout (OK, _awhile_ after

a workout <g>) because the insulin system will tend to convert carbs to fat

but would react to protein by packing on muscle (and doing other building

and maintaining sorts of things).

-

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>. Which is part of why I don't see why carbs are so necessary,

especially

when you consider that protein also stimulates insulin. >>>>>>>>>

I know very little about how all this works but can't help but wonder if

carbs aren't needed to convert certain amino acids like tryptophan into

useable components like serotonin. I'm visualizing buff bodies with calm

cool demeanor here....

~Robin

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:07:36 -0500, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Which is part of why I don't see why carbs are so necessary, especially

> when you consider that protein also stimulates insulin. In fact, since

> insulin's effect depends partly on what's at hand, it seems to me it would

> be better to eat protein and NOT carbs after a workout (OK, _awhile_ after

> a workout <g>) because the insulin system will tend to convert carbs to fat

>but would react to protein by packing on muscle (and doing other building

> and maintaining sorts of things).

I would think that eating carbs closely after a workout rather than

later would cause the insulin to promote glycogen storage rather than

fat-storage.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>I would think that eating carbs closely after a workout rather than

>later would cause the insulin to promote glycogen storage rather than

>fat-storage.

>

>Chris

>

Don't muscle and liver glycogen stores fill up first anyway, if they are

depleted?

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Don't muscle and liver glycogen stores fill up first anyway, if they are

>depleted?

That's my understanding, anyway.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>In the past it wasn't unusual for me to finish a meal with two large

>baked yams soaking with butter and sprinkled with nutmeg and cinnamon. I

>don't do that anymore not because I don't want to but because I'm just

>stuffed a lot sooner.

Recently you mentioned you haven't worked out in awhile. Could that

explain your reduction in appetite, or do you think it is in fact due to

some sort of adjustment to the WD?

>And yes I have always ignored Ori's advice about allowing at least a

>couple of hours between mealtime and bedtime. Nor do I necessarily

>follow the order of consumption he recommends.

I'd think a couple hours between eating and bedtime would lead to blood

sugar problems, but then again I'd think undereating for most of the day

would too, so who knows. <g>

-