Re: Tooth hardness vs. enamel regeneration

[Guest guest]

hello heidi,

i must have missed the precursor to this post but when i saw it - i almost

tripped over my own fingers to get to it !

i've just been posting a series of queries on the kefir and other nutrition

lists about kefir dissolving my own teeth enamel and wondering if anyone had any

solutions - no one did, alas.

i read the article on your link to the journal of clinical dentistry and it

brings up a few questions in my mind.

#1 is about the fluoride contained in the enamelon toothpaste.

" ...The remineralizing toothpaste (Enamelon® Toothpaste) used in the study

contains NaF, and simultaneously provides dissolved calcium, phosphate and

fluoride ions. The conventional toothpaste contains NaF in a silica base. ... "

i thought fluoride is very toxic for us !

#2 i didn't see at all what the article claimed, that these toothpastes

" restore " enamel at all. to me, this means restoring the thickness of the enamel

that has been eroded. but all that these toothpastes do is " harden " the

existing enamel making them more resistant to erosion,

which is a real bummer of course.

did you understand the article the same way? and what else do you know about

this subject that you wouldn't mind sharing?

thanks,

angel

Message: 25

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:22:48 -0700

From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

Subject: Tooth hardness

OK, unable to let go of this one! As usual!

First, teeth vary a lot in how hard they are. But the moh listing

of teeth is that they have a hardness of 5:

http://www.efunda.com/units/hardness/convert_hardness.cfm?cat=Steel & HD=HM

The hardness of bentonite is 6-7. So, it would potentially abrade

enamel. Which makes sense: silicates are used for polishing.

http://ceramic-materials.com/cermat/material/1264.html

I came across something interesting though: they HAVE studied

tooth remineralization using toothpastes. Saliva (and cheese)

can also remineralize, though I guess this toothpaste does

it faster!

http://www.jclindent.com/Abstracts/Munoz_v1015.html

Restorative treatments by the remineralizing and conventional toothpastes

significantly increased the hardness of the acid soft drink-weakened enamel by

12.1% and 7.3%, respectively. Both toothpastes were effective in inhibiting

damage due to acid soft drink exposure, but the remineralizing toothpaste was

more effective in hardening intact and decalcified enamel than the conventional

toothpaste (p < 0.05).

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>hello heidi,

>

>i must have missed the precursor to this post but when i saw it - i almost

tripped over my own fingers to get to it !

>

>i've just been posting a series of queries on the kefir and other nutrition

lists about kefir dissolving my own teeth enamel and wondering if anyone had any

solutions - no one did, alas.

>

>i read the article on your link to the journal of clinical dentistry and it

brings up a few questions in my mind.

>

>#1 is about the fluoride contained in the enamelon toothpaste.

> " ...The remineralizing toothpaste (Enamelon® Toothpaste) used in the study

contains NaF, and simultaneously provides dissolved calcium, phosphate and

fluoride ions. The conventional toothpaste contains NaF in a silica base. ... "

>

>i thought fluoride is very toxic for us !

Floride is one of those controversies I haven't got into it that much. I'm not

clear on it's toxicity, but it does seem clear that it helps harden teeth.

>#2 i didn't see at all what the article claimed, that these toothpastes

" restore " enamel at all. to me, this means restoring the thickness of the enamel

that has been eroded. but all that these toothpastes do is " harden " the

existing enamel making them more resistant to erosion,

As I understand it, enamel gets 'holes' in it which can be filled with minerals.

I'm not sure exactly what starts the enamel *growing* process. Or how to measure

it, esp. since these experiments are generally using extracted teeth! But it

would be interesting to see a study of enamel growing in a lab setting. Anyone

have one?

>did you understand the article the same way? and what else do you know about

this subject that you wouldn't mind sharing?

I don't know much at all! My dd though, was getting " sticky " enamel in our

gluten days and it looked like she was going to be in for many, many fillings.

Since we changed her diet, the enamel is no longer " sticky " ... i.e. is is quite

hard. So I was interested to find that in fact they have studied said phenomenon

and have *some* reasons why it happens (albeit not the dietary ones we usually

concentrate on). Esp. it is interesting that saliva plays a part. The thing is,

when you don't brush your teeth you get " plaque " which is really a hard,

rocklike substance full of minerals! So your saliva is bathing your teeth in

minerals all the time! So why would teeth NOT be full of minerals, and NOT be

getting harder?

The issue is similar to what happens, maybe, to celiacs with blood calcium. Most

celiacs have weak bones. But they ALSO tend to deposit calcium in odd places ...

like, their brains, kidneys, and as bone spurs. So you have to think that the

issues isn't " calcium shortage " ... it might have to do with lack of Vitamin D

though. If D is the issue, then that would explain Price's finding of how the

teeth get stronger when the person takes cod liver oil. That would esp. be true

since he was working in a northern country ... MOST people who live above a

certain latitude are chronically short of Vit D (and it's even more true if they

are eating wheat and are gluten intolerant, which is a big chunk of the northern

population also).

As for growth vs. hardness: they might be the same issue. I mean, when you get

osteoporosis your bones get less dense AND they get smaller, as calcium is

leached from the bones. The bones can't grow well unless you get enough calcium

to them (which, note, is not the same as how much calicium is in the diet).

Interesting stuff what?

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

<As I understand it, enamel gets 'holes' in it which can be filled with

minerals. I'm not sure exactly what starts the enamel *growing* process. Or

how to measure it, esp. since these experiments are generally using

extracted teeth! But it would be interesting to see a study of enamel

growing in a lab setting. Anyone have one?>

I can't help with a lab setting, but I do have enamel growing on two teeth

in my mouth. In one case, it's growing over previous, discolored enamel.

In the second case it's growing in from a circumferance of enamel over and

across a flat top of yellow dentin. This doesn't in either case look like a

filling in of holes, but rather a building up -- in the form of tiny bumps

linked together-- of completely new enamel.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

>I can't help with a lab setting, but I do have enamel growing on two teeth

>in my mouth. In one case, it's growing over previous, discolored enamel.

>In the second case it's growing in from a circumferance of enamel over and

>across a flat top of yellow dentin. This doesn't in either case look like a

>filling in of holes, but rather a building up -- in the form of tiny bumps

>linked together-- of completely new enamel.

>

>

And you know, I've heard a fair bit of anecdotal stuff to the

point I certainly believe it! And I think Price wrote about it

too. I just haven't seen anything in " study " format. Ditto

with growing gum tissue: mine was receding, now it

seems to be coming back, but the dentist swears up

and down " that never happens " .

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

hello claire and heidi,

wow ! this is the best news i've heard all year! no, really... you have no

idea the trouble my boyfriend is having with his teeth !

someone live and real testifying to first hand enamel rebuild observation ! YES

!!!!

claire, in your estimation, what do you think contributes to your enamel

regeneration?

heidi, how about you and your gums? what do you attribute this miracle to ?

thanks !

angel

Message: 16

Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:43:23 -0700

From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

Subject: Re: Re: Tooth hardness vs. enamel regeneration

>I can't help with a lab setting, but I do have enamel growing on two teeth

>in my mouth. In one case, it's growing over previous, discolored enamel.

>In the second case it's growing in from a circumferance of enamel over and

>across a flat top of yellow dentin. This doesn't in either case look like a

>filling in of holes, but rather a building up -- in the form of tiny bumps

>linked together-- of completely new enamel.

>

>

And you know, I've heard a fair bit of anecdotal stuff to the

point I certainly believe it! And I think Price wrote about it

too. I just haven't seen anything in " study " format. Ditto

with growing gum tissue: mine was receding, now it

seems to be coming back, but the dentist swears up

and down " that never happens " .

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>heidi, how about you and your gums? what do you attribute this miracle to ?

>

>thanks !

>angel

For me, lack of gluten, pure and simple! I was having a lot of Sjogren's

symptoms

(tho never formally diagnosed: dry eyes, no saliva, joint pain). Sjogren's is a

nasty thing, but when I went GF suddenly I found I had TONS of saliva and

actually had tears! Lack of saliva makes for very poor tooth health: so

I suspect that was the issue. Also my gums had bled and my teeth were " loose "

which might have been lack of vit. C or some such. Anyway, they reversed

when I changed my diet.

I should also add though, that when I changed my diet I ALSO started taking

supplements: Cal/mag/D, multivitamin, CLO, B's, and C. I take less now, and

I also eat fried dried anchovies and kimchi, which are full of other stuff.

And kefir beer, and Pascalite.

But the " dry mouth " thing comes back when I have a " gluten accident', regardless

of the supplements, so I still suspect it as a root cause.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Angel,

<claire, in your estimation, what do you think contributes to your enamel

regeneration?

I wish I could tell you the " magic bullet, " but I simply don't know what, or

what combination, of all the changes I made in the last few years has

contributed to this. I can only repeat what I said in the cea thread,

that I think it's not helpful, maybe not even possible, to think in terms of

a single food or combination of foods as acting like a drug to " cure "

anything. What is important is finding the optimum diet, based on

principles that make sense to you, and then experimenting to see what

actually works for you. I believe once the body has what it needs, it is

perfectly capable of reversing any degenerative disease, some of which you

won't even be aware of having started.

Good luck!

http://www.taichi4seniors.com