Re: Responsibility for parents, financial support (long)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/19/2002 10:13:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,

ahimsa@... writes:

> Wasn't I always told by Al-Anon books/groups that if the person

> in question is an adult then they are responsible for their own

> support? Shouldn't I let my mother suffer the consequences of

> her own actions? She's not going to die or starve if I stop

> providing support. She'll simply have to learn how to ask for

> help in the form of public assistance (subsidized housing and

> food stamps, things like that).

>

>

Its tough. Long time members of Al Anon, 16 years. They do say that. But

it also comes down to what you can live with. The bottom line is what you

feel in your heart.

Also they talk about helping someone who is willing to help themselves, etc.

We used to go to open AA meetings a lot, because always felt the line was out

there. Dont go so much anymore. Food seems to more a drug of choice.

Marjorie, no matter how you look at it, you can come up with logical

arguments on either side.

Another thing we learned in Al Anon is that you have to take care of yourself

first before you can take care of anyone else, if you choose to.

Check out your motives! :-)

If you have a family of your own, you and they need to come first.

We have not forgiven our megatron. We are willing to, but not going to force

forgiveness, it will come at the right time. Every time we tired to force

forgivness, it was never complete.

We helped after checking out our motives and made sure we were helping her

for that time because we needed to do it for ourselves. Not for her, not out

of obligation, not out of what will the rest of the familiy think or friends,

etc. Definitely not for a 'thank you'..lol.. she thinks we owe her our life

and a 'thank you' is definitely not in the cards.

Your long email was just the length you needed it to be:-)

I think you will know whether to continue or not when the time is right for a

decision. It feels like you have really checked out all your feelings,

motives, etc.

We still love our nada in a way that we love all humankind, in a unconditonal

love. But as far as loving her the way most would love a mother, that is not

there for most. It just faded away, as it seemed to painful to love her, to

hope, etc. and as we realized she never loved us. Just said it out of guilt

or manipulation.

Did some major grieving a few months back at letting go of all hope that we

could ever have a loving relationship with the nada. It took us 58 years.

Lots of therapy, meetings, journaling, etc. But our heart is at peace with

this, finally. We feel free:-)

There are still things we need to process, etc... but the decision of needing

to let go of our hope came with years of struggling with it as it seemed too

painful to let go of that small bit of hope that she might love us.

We have many loving friends and are working hard at truly loving ourselves,

it seems our energy is better spent that way then working on loving megatron

and working on the hope that she might love us back some day.

It was hard to love ourselves before it seems because the megatron did not

love us, so how could we be loveable. Yet we had no problem giving love to

others and receiving love in return.

It was also hard because we did not know each other very well, the boundaries

between each personality was very thick, so it took years to know one

another, and still have a ways to go.

Hugs back to you Marjorie, and the decision is not written in stone, you can

change your mind as many times as you need to:-) based on what you need and

your family need and I am not mentioning the nada here. If feels like her

needs should be your last priority in decision making and that any help for

her should be done if it is what you need more than what she needs.

hugs and wiping away some of your tears, susie & co.

[Guest guest]

[hnjstaff@...] asked:

> At what point are we as individuals responsible for others?

This is a very difficult question for me. I feel like all I

can contribute are more questions, no answers! Here are the

questions that I struggle with:

How much financial support do I provide (if any) for a mother

who was abusive to me as a child? Should I help someone who has

never made any attempt to make amends for her past? How do I

maintain my sanity, enforce my boundaries, stay detached and

yet retain some compassion?

Should I feel sorry for someone who has no financial means of

support (SSA check of $465/mo) but who is only in this situation

because she did it to herself--overspending, never working, and

manipulation of family members (enablers) until she used them

all up? And once I decide to provide financial help, how can I

put conditions on it without it taking a lot of time and effort

to enforce those conditions?

Wasn't I always told by Al-Anon books/groups that if the person

in question is an adult then they are responsible for their own

support? Shouldn't I let my mother suffer the consequences of

her own actions? She's not going to die or starve if I stop

providing support. She'll simply have to learn how to ask for

help in the form of public assistance (subsidized housing and

food stamps, things like that).

But on the other hand, I was told that helping is not always

enabling. If the financial support is helping her to get

healthier, because she can focus on getting help (rehab a

couple of years ago, and therapy now), then isn’t that going

to be positive in the long run?

My mother was already 65 when she finished rehab. With her

situation it was unlikely she'd ever be able to work. I tried

to get an opinion from the rehab staff but they wouldn't say

much. I made a decision to continue to provide financial

support as long as she was getting help (AA meetings or

whatever). Since she was making some positive changes in her

life (small changes, but at least she is sober and in therapy),

wasn't it the right thing to do to support her and help her

stay sober during that difficult time? Was I helping her? Or

was I enabling?

If I can provide financial support without threatening my own

financial security, and without resentment (tough, but I keep

working on it), and if I can do it without threatening my own

mental health (continuing therapy to find a reasonable level

of detachment), then isn't it the right thing to do?

I'm not looking for sainthood or appreciation by others (maybe

subconsciously, but I'm trying not to do that, not feel like

" look how noble I am. " ) I'm certainly not looking for my mother

to thank me! (that will never happen!!) Also, I'm not doing this

out of fear. My mother will yell or pout or do some crazy thing

no matter what I do. I'm providing support because, for now, it

is what I think is the right thing to do, what my conscience tells

me is the right thing to do. But I doubt my decision at times.

Maybe this isn't the right thing to do. Maybe I should let her

" sink or swim. " Maybe she resents me (okay, not maybe, I know

that she resents me) because she feels that at some level I have

control over her actions? She knows that I can withhold financial

support if she doesn't follow certain conditions. Of course, these

conditions are only related to improving her mental/physical

health (therapy, doctor appts). And she has the choice to refuse

my financial support and go on public assistance. I can't make

her do anything.

Still, I'm sure from her point of view I am being controlling

because I am providing financial support with conditions. I'm

sure there are other people out there who don't know the whole

story who would also think this is controlling. But, as I once

told my sister, there is " unconditional love " and there is

" unconditional money " --love does not equal money! The two are

not the same thing!

I get very confused but I try to make the best choices I can

while knowing that I am not perfect and I will certainly make

some mistakes. That's okay as long as I'm trying to do my best.

The trick, for me, is to find what I can do without resentment. I

try to remind myself that I can always change my mind later if my

first choices don't work out. I'm trying so hard to find a good

middle ground, somewhere between abandonment and rescuing (I usually

lean more toward the abandonment than rescuing). I'm trying to find

a level of financial and emotional support that will help her

without depleting my own resources. I can only devote a certain

amount of time to thinking about my mother (calling doctors, for

example, to see whether she has gone to her appointment or lied

to me) before I start rebelling against it.

At times I'd rather give her money with no conditions because it is

less work. But isn't that the easy way out? On the other hand, there

was a reason I didn't have children. And here I am, feeling like I'm

dealing with a child.

I remind myself that I have choices. I don't *have* to do any of

this. No one is making me do this. I can always change my mind.

I know that I must protect myself and my husband *first.* That is

my number one priority. Only if I have resources left over can I

apply them to helping others.

I know I'm going on really long but this topic really hit home.

Sara [hsmcj@...] wrote:

> Children, like ourselves, MUST have the right not to take on the

> responsibility of a parent that could destroy them.

I completely agree with this statement! The fact that I am not

forced to do this, and I try to avoid all FOG (fear, obligation

and guilt), is the only reason I can do what I am doing.

I'm struggling with these issues. It was so much easier for me,

in a lot of ways, when my mother was addicted and I had very

little contact her because she was so messed up. But once she

said she would go into rehab, I got involved in her financial

support. It was, as far as I could tell, the first positive

step she had ever taken in her life and I wanted to support

her first attempt to get healthy.

Anyway, I can't change the past. I can only go on from here.

The biggest dangers that I see to providing any type of support,

whether emotional or financial, is that nothing is ever enough!

I don't know if that is true for all BPD mothers but my mother

has this *huge* entitlement issue. She acts like she deserves

the best of everything. She tries (doesn't succeed any more) to

" guilt " us (sister and I) into giving her more money, gifts, etc.

Even though she is such a waif in so many ways, when it comes to

money, she is the ultimate QUEEN!

I constantly have to say no and set limits and protect myself from

her. Even her therapist was fooled somewhat by her " poor little

me, I have no money " spiel! The therapist said something like,

Isn't it sad how our society doesn't reward women who don't work,

older women end up impoverished. That may be true, but is totally

unrelated to my mother's situation!

I tried to explain to the therapist how my mother had squandered

many THOUSANDS of dollars over the years. She ran up huge credit

card bills that her sister paid off, then her boyfriend (after

she left my father). She lied and manipulated every single person

she knew in order to get more money. She was getting $20,000/year

from her sister at one point, tax-free. Not bad, huh? She has

even stolen money. She cleaned out my father's bank accounts when

she left him. He didn't even know she had done it until his checks

started bouncing. She took the checks from the back of the checkbook

and he hadn't noticed.

This situation is so hard for me. How can I forgive a person who

has done these things and made no apology for it? How do I get past

my anger, and resentment, and feelings of being used, to find some

compassion for a person who is very messed up *but* is finally

trying to get some help? Some days I can feel compassion, some days

I feel angry, and some days I just feel tired of it all.

If you've stayed with me this long, thanks for " listening. " I've

talked about this with my therapist, and this is my decision for

now (financial support with conditions), but that doesn't make it

an easy decision.

Hugs (and some tears),

Marjorie in Oregon

ahimsa@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/20/2002 10:10:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,

thanksforthisday@... writes:

> would say...do the best you can and don't judge

> yourself.....being gentle with oneself is so important.

>

> Kathleen

>

Right on, Kathleen! :-)

[Guest guest]

If I had lots of money I would possible contribute to whoever in

my FOO needed it as long as it was not taking money away from

my kids. I think.

I think giving money is easier than having people live in my

house. I did that for years and it was a big mistake.

When I give money, it is gone. I don't look for it or try to make

things work in a certain way.

Recently I got to the point where I didn't think of nada for a few

days at a time. On the other hand, in the old days....I thought

(obsessed) constantly about nada...and didnt pay attention to the

truly important things.

I would say...do the best you can and don't judge

yourself.....being gentle with oneself is so important.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

> When I give money, it is gone. I don't look for it or try to make

> things work in a certain way.

That is certainly easier than having conditions. But her therapist

thinks that is not as good for her as setting certain conditions.

It ends up being " enabling " because then she can do whatever she

wants and keep on getting worse. Some part of me says, who cares

whether she gets worse? Another part of me says, I don't want to

enable her, why should I contribute to her destructive behavior?'

And yet another part of me says, I want out! I don't want to do

anything for her at all!

I have to try to remain calm and sort out all my feelings, deal

with them, and then do what I think is right and rational. I don't

want to make irrational decisions. However, I do try to acknowledge

my feelings and that I have a right to feel angry, sad, and confused

by all this crap.

> I think giving money is easier than having people live in my

> house. I did that for years and it was a big mistake.

Wow, do I agree with that one! I would never let my mother live

with me no matter what the situation. It would destroy me and

my marriage, no question.

> I would say...do the best you can and don't judge

> yourself.....being gentle with oneself is so important.

Thanks so much. These reminders help. I can " know " this stuff

at an intellectual level but I cherish all the validation from

you guys. I need to get to where I " know " this in my heart, not

just in my head.

Hugs,

Marjorie in Oregon

ahimsa@...

[Guest guest]

Susie & co.,

Thanks for your kind words of support. I appreciate all that you said.

Warm Hugs,

Marjorie in Oregon

ahimsa@...

[Guest guest]

Its tough. Long time members of Al Anon, 16 years. They do say that. But

it also comes down to what you can live with. The bottom line is what you

feel in your heart.

I think what scares me is that I don't feel compassion for her. Right now my

thoughts are that I get up every morning and go to work. If I can do this for

myself, why should I give up my hard earned money or comforts to support someone

who has sat back her entire life and whined to be taken care of. So what scares

me is that I have lost my humanity. I'm very compassionate in other areas of my

life, even towards my nada, but not in this area. So does that make me a bad

person (yes here comes another flea)?

These are all thoughts I'm going to have to come to terms with myself. But it

was so great to get others opinions and thoughts.

[Guest guest]

hnjstaff@... wrote:

I'm very compassionate in other areas of my life, even towards my nada, but

not in this area. So does that make me a bad person

Hi~

YOU ARE NOT A BAD PERSON!! You have answered your own question for yourself!

You said you are very compassionate in other areas of your life. Don't worry.

When you process all the bad and the hurt, you may be able to open the doors to

this area of hurt and move forward. When the time comes, you may be able to

help your nada. But don't let it beat you down. She did enough of that when

you were growing up. And in my opinion, if you can't do it, even in the end,

that's OK. Nobody deserves bad treatment, but on the other hand, the parents

we talk about on this list haven't earned good treatment. All relationships

take partners. If your parents won't partner the relationship with you, then

you have no more responsibility than your own 50%. It will all be OK. Just

work through the problems in your own way and the healthy space you come to on

the other side will open the doors to this compassion for you.

Love,

Sara

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Another flea:-) Well it does not sound to me likeyou have lost your

humanity. Sometimes its about all we can do to take care of ourselves and

our family.

If you have compassion in other areas of your life, your humanity is still

there.

Its your hard earned money, its your choice. Nothing wrong with feeling and

being where you are at the moment. Sometimes we need to do that to keep

ourselves safe.

I have compassion for our Megatron, but I also have good boundaries and know

that I can have nothing to do with her the rest of my life (already 58.),

unless some miracle happens, and if it does I am open to it.

Compassion comes at different levels and also sometimes our compassion needs

to remain in check regarding certain people in our lives.

I know I cannot act on my compassion for the Megatron, it could be deadly to

me.

Where you are right now, is exactly where you are supposed to be.

peacenlivesusienxo

>

> I think what scares me is that I don't feel compassion for her. Right

> now my thoughts are that I get up every morning and go to work. If I can

> do this for myself, why should I give up my hard earned money or comforts

> to support someone who has sat back her entire life and whined to be taken

> care of. So what scares me is that I have lost my humanity. I'm very

> compassionate in other areas of my life, even towards my nada, but not in

> this area. So does that make me a bad person (yes here comes another

> flea)?

>

> These are all thoughts I'm going to have to come to terms with myself.

> But it was so great to get others opinions and thoughts.

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text