Re: Juice Fasting - sparing protein

[Guest guest]

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/300/11/579

" We conclude that the decrease in serum T3 concentrations during

fasting spares muscle protein. Fasting is accompanied by a lower set

point of TSH secretion, which remains sensitive to changes in serum

thyroid hormone concentrations. "

Its late and the above is the only thing I could dig up at the moment

from the medical journals. Dr. Buchinger noted that the need for protein

on a fast goes down dramatically:

" The need for protein diminishes during the fast, until in the second week,

it has been reduced from 100 grams to from 15-20 grams a day, and this

amount is, in fact, quite sufficient while fasting. "

That is taken from _Fasting: The Buchinger Method_

http://tinyurl.com/4wmje

Also HGH levels increase remarkably during fasting which may explain

some of the body's protein retaining ability during a fast.

And then there is the classic description of what actually happens

during a fast that may help explain the protein sparing effect as well:

" During fasting, your body will " autolyze " , or self-digest, its most

inferior and impure materials and metabolic wastes, including: fat deposits,

abcesses, dead and dying cells, bumps and protuberances, damaged tissue,

calluses, furuncles (small skin abscesses, or boils), morbid

accumulations, growths, and amazingly, various kinds of neoplasms

(abnormal growths of tissue, or tumors). In " Fasting and eating for

health " , Fuhrman, M.D., notes, p. 10: " The fast does not merely

detoxify; it also breaks down superfluous tissue - fat, abnormal cells,

atheromatous plaque, and tumors--and releases diseased tissues and their

cellular products into the circulation for elimination. Toxic or

unwanted materials circulate in our bloodstream and lymphatic tissues,

and are deposited in and released from our fat stores and other tissues.

An important element of fasting detoxification is mobilizing the toxins

from their storage areas. "

" New cell growth during fasting is stimulated and accelerated as the

required proteins are re-synthesized from decomposed cells (during autolysis).

Thus, your serum albumin reading - blood-protein level - remains

constant and normal throughout your fast, as your body very smartly uses

protein and other stored nutrients where needed. "

http://snipurl.com/dgdl

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

This was great stuff! All of your posts on this subject have been very

helpful to me. Thanks for putting it out there.

The material on protein sparing has really ignited my interest as my results

have clearly been the opposite of the science that you are quoting. One

possible explanation is that my body did not need all of the muscle mass I

had built over two years of lifting weights and simply removed it as one of

the unneeded extras it had when I put it into fasting mode. If that is the

case then I would think my LBM should stabilize where it is at right now as

I continue the detox process over the remainder of this year.

Ron

> http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/300/11/579

>

> " We conclude that the decrease in serum T3 concentrations during

> fasting spares muscle protein. Fasting is accompanied by a lower set

> point of TSH secretion, which remains sensitive to changes in serum

> thyroid hormone concentrations. "

>

> Its late and the above is the only thing I could dig up at the moment

> from the medical journals. Dr. Buchinger noted that the need

> for protein

> on a fast goes down dramatically:

>

> " The need for protein diminishes during the fast, until in

> the second week,

> it has been reduced from 100 grams to from 15-20 grams a day, and this

> amount is, in fact, quite sufficient while fasting. "

>

> That is taken from _Fasting: The Buchinger Method_

> http://tinyurl.com/4wmje

>

> Also HGH levels increase remarkably during fasting which may explain

> some of the body's protein retaining ability during a fast.

>

> And then there is the classic description of what actually happens

> during a fast that may help explain the protein sparing

> effect as well:

>

> " During fasting, your body will " autolyze " , or self-digest, its most

> inferior and impure materials and metabolic wastes,

> including: fat deposits,

> abcesses, dead and dying cells, bumps and protuberances,

> damaged tissue,

> calluses, furuncles (small skin abscesses, or boils), morbid

> accumulations, growths, and amazingly, various kinds of neoplasms

> (abnormal growths of tissue, or tumors). In " Fasting and eating for

> health " , Fuhrman, M.D., notes, p. 10: " The fast does not merely

> detoxify; it also breaks down superfluous tissue - fat,

> abnormal cells,

> atheromatous plaque, and tumors--and releases diseased

> tissues and their

> cellular products into the circulation for elimination. Toxic or

> unwanted materials circulate in our bloodstream and lymphatic tissues,

> and are deposited in and released from our fat stores and

> other tissues.

> An important element of fasting detoxification is mobilizing

> the toxins

> from their storage areas. "

>

> " New cell growth during fasting is stimulated and accelerated as the

> required proteins are re-synthesized from decomposed cells

> (during autolysis).

> Thus, your serum albumin reading - blood-protein level - remains

> constant and normal throughout your fast, as your body very

> smartly uses

> protein and other stored nutrients where needed. "

>

> http://snipurl.com/dgdl

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

>http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/300/11/579

>

> " We conclude that the decrease in serum T3 concentrations during

>fasting spares muscle protein. Fasting is accompanied by a lower set

>point of TSH secretion, which remains sensitive to changes in serum

>thyroid hormone concentrations. "

As someone with a somewhat unusual (or unfashionable, anyway) thyroid

problem, I'm pretty well acquainted with thyroid info, and I have to say,

that's very bad. First, the quantity they supplemented subjects with (5mcg

every 3 hours) is minuscule. Second, T3 shouldn't be supplemented

regularly throughout the day; that's likely to have atypical and

undesirable effects. Third, T3, being the active form of thyroid hormone,

is basically an anabolic, not catabolic, substance. Fourth, the fact that

fasting depresses serum T3 indicates that fasting is an undesirable

state. You DO NOT want to lower your serum T3! (Unless you're

hyperthyroid, of course.) That's lowering your metabolism! A bad thing!

-

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:14:21 -0500

" RBJR " <rbjr@...> wrote:

> This was great stuff! All of your posts on this subject have been very

> helpful to me. Thanks for putting it out there.

ur welcome

> The material on protein sparing has really ignited my interest as my results

> have clearly been the opposite of the science that you are quoting. One

> possible explanation is that my body did not need all of the muscle mass I

> had built over two years of lifting weights and simply removed it as one of

> the unneeded extras it had when I put it into fasting mode. If that is the

> case then I would think my LBM should stabilize where it is at right now as

> I continue the detox process over the remainder of this year.

That is a good point. I do think that one of the benefits of liquid fasting

is that it causes your body to normalize over time if done properly

(food fasting can do the same thing depending on how its done). Certainly

it would be difficult to achieve the muscle mass that some people have

today without the use of weights, and maybe that is not a good thing for

everybody. I don't know, just thinking out loud.

On the other hand, I do think some type of exercise should be done when

fasting so as to help ensure that the body does burn fat and not muscle.

I do not agree with the idea that you shouldn't exercise when fasting,

including water fasting. I felt much better during my water fasts when I

exercised. An added bonus is that both fasting and exercise raise HGH

levels.

What is interesting is that Herbert Shelton, a natural hygienist who

wrote a well known book on water fasting, has written at length about

strength athletes whose performance were enhanced in the midst of water

fasting, even though he advocates mostly rest during a fast (not total rest

however as some advocate).

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

> On the other hand, I do think some type of exercise should be done when

> fasting so as to help ensure that the body does burn fat and not muscle.

> I do not agree with the idea that you shouldn't exercise when fasting,

> including water fasting. I felt much better during my water fasts when I

> exercised. An added bonus is that both fasting and exercise raise HGH

> levels.

What type of exercise? Do you think weight lifting is appropriate?

Should the intensity or duration be lessened?

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>What type of exercise? Do you think weight lifting is appropriate?

>Should the intensity or duration be lessened?

I'm just spitballing here, but it seems to me that if your goal is to

maintain LBM, some lifting would be advised as opposed to so-called aerobic

exercise. Lots of muscle isn't required for running and other aerobic

activities. Look at runners, particularly marathon runners, for

example. If you fast (which I still think is likely to be a bad idea, at

least if you intend a lengthy one) running or rebounding or whatever might

tell your body to make extra effort to reduce " wasteful " LBM that is just

consuming energy and being carried around to no purpose. Presumably any

lifting you do should be much lighter and less extensive than usual, but it

would at least signal your system that the muscle is needed and shouldn't

be cannibalized.

But again, I'd think that going without protein for any real length of time

(i.e. more than, I don't know, a couple days) is likely to be more harmful

than beneficial. Did Price's healthy natives make a practice of fasting?

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> > The material on protein sparing has really ignited my

> interest as my results

> > have clearly been the opposite of the science that you are

> quoting. One

> > possible explanation is that my body did not need all of

> the muscle mass I

> > had built over two years of lifting weights and simply

> removed it as one of

> > the unneeded extras it had when I put it into fasting mode.

> If that is the

> > case then I would think my LBM should stabilize where it is

> at right now as

> > I continue the detox process over the remainder of this year.

>

> That is a good point. I do think that one of the benefits of

> liquid fasting

> is that it causes your body to normalize over time if done properly

> (food fasting can do the same thing depending on how its

> done). Certainly

> it would be difficult to achieve the muscle mass that some people have

> today without the use of weights, and maybe that is not a

> good thing for

> everybody. I don't know, just thinking out loud.

Interesting. I hadn't really considered it from that angle. I did not

consider my extra muscle mass to be " bad " , just not particularly normal.

Since it is relatively easy to build the muscle it seems as though it is a

proper response to a particular stimulus. OTOH, when the body is stressed

it seems to be one of the first things to go. There's a great story about

Zane losing 18 pounds of LBM in a week when going into the hospital

after a having a serious accident.

>

> On the other hand, I do think some type of exercise should be

> done when

> fasting so as to help ensure that the body does burn fat and

> not muscle.

> I do not agree with the idea that you shouldn't exercise when fasting,

> including water fasting. I felt much better during my water

> fasts when I

> exercised. An added bonus is that both fasting and exercise raise HGH

> levels.

I will keep that in mind. I have included some running and a fair amount of

walking in my fasts so far. No weightlifting, but that has more to do with

being injured or recovering during the fasts than it does with some kind of

objection to actually lifting.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>OTOH, when the body is stressed

>it seems to be one of the first things to go. There's a great story about

> Zane losing 18 pounds of LBM in a week when going into the hospital

>after a having a serious accident.

That's exactly true. LBM is metabolically expensive. It requires dietary

plenty, among other things. In fact, I think Ori Hofmekler's idea that

fasting or undereating prompts an anabolic response is highly unlikely for

exactly this reason.

once suggested an alternate theory which sounds much more plausible

to me, namely that the body determines how much expensive tissue and

construction activity it can afford in large part based on the peak size of

feedings rather than on total food consumed during a given day. That

explains the apparent benefits of the Warrior Diet while being consistent

with other observed metabolic phenomena. To the degree that the

undereating phase is helpful, I expect it's just because it frees up energy

that would normally be spent on digestion for use in building and repairing

tissue.

That's one reason I think lengthier fasts are unwise: the WD's undereating

phase evidently doesn't trigger famine mode because of the large meal at

the end of the day, but if you stretch the undereating phase further,

you're going to run into the famine response and start having LBM and

metabolic troubles.

-

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:30:10 -0500, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> once suggested an alternate theory which sounds much more plausible

> to me, namely that the body determines how much expensive tissue and

> construction activity it can afford in large part based on the peak size of

> feedings rather than on total food consumed during a given day. That

> explains the apparent benefits of the Warrior Diet while being consistent

> with other observed metabolic phenomena. To the degree that the

> undereating phase is helpful, I expect it's just because it frees up energy

> that would normally be spent on digestion for use in building and repairing

> tissue.

,

I think I actually got that idea from an article Ori wrote.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>I think I actually got that idea from an article Ori wrote.

Interesting, because in MMMF he makes no reference whatsoever to the idea,

and in contrast he repeats over and over again the suggestion that the

body's response to fasting and undereating is anabolic.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> once suggested an alternate theory which sounds much

> more plausible

> to me, namely that the body determines how much expensive tissue and

> construction activity it can afford in large part based on

> the peak size of

> feedings rather than on total food consumed during a given day. That

> explains the apparent benefits of the Warrior Diet while

> being consistent

> with other observed metabolic phenomena. To the degree that the

> undereating phase is helpful, I expect it's just because it

> frees up energy

> that would normally be spent on digestion for use in building

> and repairing

> tissue.

Nice theory, but it doesn't match my experience of reality. Look at Ori and

the other Warrior Dieters -- tendency towards lean and muscular but

_relatively_ small bodies. OTOH, bodybuilders (both drugged and natural)

maximize mass with multiple smaller meals throughout the day.

I saw Chris' comment that this came from Ori. There may be clear benefits

to the Warrior Diet, but Ori Hofmekler is the last guy I would be going to

for advice on maximizing muscle mass building. He's a pretty scrawny dude

by US weightlifting standards.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Nice theory, but it doesn't match my experience of reality. Look at Ori and

>the other Warrior Dieters -- tendency towards lean and muscular but

>_relatively_ small bodies. OTOH, bodybuilders (both drugged and natural)

>maximize mass with multiple smaller meals throughout the day.

True, bodybuilders bulk up more, but it's relatively widely known that

bodybuilder muscle isn't maximally functional muscle, and thus on a

volume-for-volume basis I doubt it's nearly as metabolically expensive as

maximally functional muscle.

-

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:44:10 -0500

Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> > On the other hand, I do think some type of exercise should be done when

> > fasting so as to help ensure that the body does burn fat and not muscle.

> > I do not agree with the idea that you shouldn't exercise when fasting,

> > including water fasting. I felt much better during my water fasts when I

> > exercised. An added bonus is that both fasting and exercise raise HGH

> > levels.

>

> What type of exercise? Do you think weight lifting is appropriate?

> Should the intensity or duration be lessened?

>

> Chris

Personally I lifted and did some light aerobics. While I think aerobics

has some heart benefits in general I think aerobics is *highly*

overrated.

During the medically supervised Swedish March fasts of the last century,

where patients strength and endurance went up as the fast went on, they

were mostly doing lots of walking (325 miles in 10 days).

When I was into bodybuilding/bodyshaping I lessened the intensity and

duration and just went on how I felt.

Actually the last time I fasted and exercised together I did an aerobic

weightraining circuit, which is short but pretty intense when done

properly in a gym with a good variety of machines. I don't necessarily

recommend that approach. I liked it though because I was in and out in

30 minutes and it fit in with what I was trying to accomplish.

When I was fasting and doing the Olympic Lifts I simply conducted

business as usual.

s Cahling suggested bodybuilders work out at maintenance level

when fasting. I would say that is good advice.

In your case, since you are concerned with losing weight, I think some

mild weightlifting will probably be sufficient.

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:39:01 -0500

" RBJR " <rbjr@...> wrote:

> > That is a good point. I do think that one of the benefits of

> > liquid fasting

> > is that it causes your body to normalize over time if done properly

> > (food fasting can do the same thing depending on how its

> > done). Certainly

> > it would be difficult to achieve the muscle mass that some people have

> > today without the use of weights, and maybe that is not a

> > good thing for

> > everybody. I don't know, just thinking out loud.

>

> Interesting. I hadn't really considered it from that angle. I did not

> consider my extra muscle mass to be " bad " , just not particularly normal.

I agree. I didn't mean good/bad in that sense, but more normal/unusual.

I personally like carrying around extra muscle mass.

> Since it is relatively easy to build the muscle it seems as though it is a

> proper response to a particular stimulus. OTOH, when the body is stressed

> it seems to be one of the first things to go. There's a great story about

> Zane losing 18 pounds of LBM in a week when going into the hospital

> after a having a serious accident.

Zane? Now that is a name I haven't heard in a long time. I think

the first bodybuilding book I ever bought was by him and his wife. I

liked him quite a bit along with Bill Pearl and Steve Reeves. IMO, very

aesthetic physique as far as body builders go.

The sinews of war, a limitless supply of money.

Cicero (106-43 B.C.), Roman orator, philosopher.

Philippics, Oration 5, sct. 5.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> > Interesting. I hadn't really considered it from that

> angle. I did not

> > consider my extra muscle mass to be " bad " , just not

> particularly normal.

>

> I agree. I didn't mean good/bad in that sense, but more

> normal/unusual.

> I personally like carrying around extra muscle mass.

Yes, me too. I like that surplus thing.

I'm finding that I'm at the Goldilocks stage in my bodybuilding career,

though. I'm looking for " just right " .

>

> > Since it is relatively easy to build the muscle it seems as

> though it is a

> > proper response to a particular stimulus. OTOH, when the

> body is stressed

> > it seems to be one of the first things to go. There's a

> great story about

> > Zane losing 18 pounds of LBM in a week when going

> into the hospital

> > after a having a serious accident.

>

> Zane? Now that is a name I haven't heard in a long time. I think

> the first bodybuilding book I ever bought was by him and his wife. I

> liked him quite a bit along with Bill Pearl and Steve Reeves.

> IMO, very

> aesthetic physique as far as body builders go.

I think had the most beautiful body in bodybuilding. If his legs had

been three inches longer he would have been unbeatable. I actually met him

once and was shocked by how small he is. I think he's only about 5' 9 " .

They all look so big in the pictures and on stage.

Ron

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:59:56 -0800, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> When I was fasting and doing the Olympic Lifts I simply conducted

> business as usual.

>

> s Cahling suggested bodybuilders work out at maintenance level

> when fasting. I would say that is good advice.

>

> In your case, since you are concerned with losing weight, I think some

> mild weightlifting will probably be sufficient.

I'm doing the VCO fast now, on the second day (actually third, but the

first night I ate something small in the evening), and my idea is

basically maintenance. What I figure is that I should do heavy

weights, but very few sets, very little total work, and very short

total duration of the workout. Yesterday I did a chest/back workout.

I'm also sick, so I had little energy. I was able to bench 160 once

two weeks ago, and yesterday I did three singles of 225. Then I did

one set each of wide-gripped chinups, lat pulldown, and bent over

barbell row, the latter two at moderately reduced weight from what I

usually do. That was it.

I think I'm going to do just 3-5 moderate sets of kettlebell exercises

this week, and maybe in a couple days do squats and deadlifts like I

did the bench press-- low-rep sets, very few sets, heavy weight but

reduced from what I'd usually do.

My main idea is to convince my body that the extra muscle is NOT the

least needed part of my body to catabolize if it needs to.

I don't mind so much if I lose a little muscle and maintain my

strength. But I really don't want to regress on my strength too much,

and fight the battle all over again.

Muscle mass I'll just have to wait till after Lent to gain. I'm

losing weight even before the fast anyway.

Chris