Re: reply...Heidi...more accurate

[Guest guest]

:

>I agree with you that most Americans are living in " Disneyland " concerning many

issues facing this country. However, I disagree with everything you wrote in

your post. Vegetarians and PETA folks are “not” divorced from reality. First,

vegetarians have chosen a diet that works for them and the added benefit to the

world is that these vegetarians “do not” place high demands on our environment

to consume animal products ­ animal products take enormous energy to bring to

the market for human consumption.

That is very true for grain fed animals. I agree with the vegetarians about the

treatment of animals on factory farms. The issue with grass fed animals has been

discussed many times here and it has been studied: see:

http://www.harpers.org/TheOilWeEat.html

http://klomdark.servebeer.com:8081/MessageBase2/ReadMessage.aspx?MsgNum=1638

I get my meat from a farmer. He's got a big grass field. The cows eat the grass

and are generally ignored except to give them a salt lick, a water trough, and

hay in the winter (from another field nearby). Animals run around on the grass:

rabbits, snakes, etc. No tractor is used to cut the grass or harvest the cows. A

guy comes out, shoots the cow, and cuts it up. It takes a little bit of gas to

haul the cow to the butcher shop (and to my house) and there is some electricity

for the saw and baling hay (depending on the climate), but how is that " enormous

energy " ? It doesn't even take irrigation water. It doesn't erode the land. And

there is LOTS of empty grassland (much of it is causing wildfires because it is

undergrazed, lacking buffalo, antelope, and the other ruminants that used to

graze it). And goats and elk eat far less than your average cow. Animals like

Longhorn and Buffalo used to run wild with no one taking care of them, and they

fed a LOT of people.

And of course if we REALLY want less environmental impact we need less people.

But I know where my meat and vegies come from, and they have very, very,

minimal impact compared to what it takes to grow soy and wheat. The farmers are

running out of irrigation water ... the land they are watering can grow

ruminants just fine. The average suburban yard can support a goat, or at least a

goat share (think of all that " compost " material being hauled off to the dump

each week! How many goats that would feed!).

> I welcome " more " not less vegetarians in this world. Second, PETA is for the

human treatment of animals - again, this is something I certainly welcome more

of in this cruel inhumane world of ours. I totally back what PETA stands for and

we need " more " people not less to join PETA.

PETA may well have some wonderful people in it. My exposure to animal activists

is typified by with some folks who were out buying lobsters to " save " them. OK,

that's certainly their right! But the stuff they were saying about lobsters ...

that they are good parents, kind gentle creatures etc. ... is just plain not

true. Lobsters, and most fish, will eat anything they can stick in thier mouth,

including, for many species, their own offspring. I could support not catching

them because they may be overfished, but NOT because they are " good parents " .

I have animals, I totally agree with treating them humanely, and I have friends

who do stuff like rescue badly treated horses and rehabilitate them. But some of

the PETA issues just make the whole movement look detached from reality.

>You wrote: " So, I think the current rise in vegetarianism is an offshoot of our

rather " rich " life in this country. " My reply: When a country is developed and

" rich”, they desire meats, and lots of them! You could not be more wrong, ok.

Well, ok, a lot of rich people in our society eat a lot of meat. And a lot of

others are refusing to eat meat and living off expensive substitutes. I should

have said " in my circle of people " . Amongst the people I know, the vegetarians

are the well-off yuppie types, and they do it for ethical reasons and misplaced

health reasons. The poorer folks grow their own chickens and cows often, or have

a neighbor who does, and think the yuppie types are kind of effete and crazy.

The yuppie types think the poorer ones are cruel, right-wing country bumpkins. I

have friends in both camps ... but I get my meat from the cow-growers! Both sets

of people, I think, care very much about their animals, but I think the ones who

are farmers are far more connected to reality.

>Concerning vaccines, please educate your self by going to mercola.com and

typing in vaccines.

I've read a LOT of stuff on vaccines and I don't think arguing it will ever

resolve the issues. Tell you what: sometime in my lifetime, I expect there to be

a nice mutated virus that we really don't have good defense against, kind of

like the smallpox was to the Indians, with say, a 75% mortality rate. So, when

this virus hits, they will develop a vaccine, probably not a very good one and

it will probably have side effects because they developed it too quickly. It

will be, say, 90% effective, so that if you get the vaccine you'll have a 95%

chance of surviving rather than 25%, and you won't get so sick with virus x. But

if you get the shot, 2 out of 1,000 people will die and everyone will feel

really lousy for about a week.

Now, me, I'll get the shot and take my risk at being one of the 2 out of 1,000

who die from it. You probably won't, maybe Mercola won't (actually I think he

will: he's quite willing to change his stance depending on circumstances). After

the dust clears, we'll see who's still standing.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

<After the dust clears, we'll see who's still standing.

Heidi,

You are a hoot. LOL

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

animal products take enormous energy to bring to the market for human

consumption.

so do vegetable products. especially the imported ones!

[Guest guest]

Hi:

I don't have important things to add to what has been said

previously, but can't keep my big mouth shut.

I don't know much about this PETA, since I am from a foreign country.

I know we have similar organizations in this corner of the world,

defending the genuine interest of animals, but they aren't probably

so powerful. You hardly ever see an advertisement in the media.

I think the question of cruelty to animals haunts most conscious meat-

eaters, but we should all be concerned about the plant kingdom as

well. Agribusiness don't much spare them, don't you agree?

I don't know what position PETA has in relation to dairy. Are they

only against the slaughtering of animals, or do they also reject any

other kind of husbandry? And what do they think of hunting and

fishing?

In an ideal world we would only hunt, fish, and collect, because

these of course imply instant death and no need of confinement. But

we no longer live in an ideal world – not after the domestication of

animals and plants took place.

Maybe we all don't need meat-based diets; maybe the best diet is one

which includes a bit of everything (except for those people who

harbour certain food intolerances); maybe a few lucky ones can afford

to be vegetarians or even vegans, but given all credible accounts we

have been hearing for a very long time, these two kinds of diet more

often than not are doomed to failure. Some proud people will stick to

them even if their health is ruined, just because they don't want to

retrace their steps and admit they made a mistake in embracing them

in the first place and in preaching to others the wrong way in the

second.

I understand that, in a normal condition, no animal would give up

their life to feed us, maybe not even plants will do so, except maybe

fruit which " want " their seeds to be spread. But I agree that it

helps to be thankful both to animals and plants for " giving " us their

living flesh for our own survival. It helps you to pinpoint a

compassionate position in the complex context of life. We, humans,

are not the kings and queens of the earth. The earth wasn't made only

for us, and in fact I am afraid we have destroyed much of the planet

beyond repair. But we also have a right to be here. And when you

don't have this food or blood relationship with animals, it seems you

have an impoverished view on life and death issues as well.

All in all, it's a question of what least harms you, since all of

life seems to run around " self-interest " (may it be a healthy self-

interest at least!): can we live without animal fats and protein?

Probably not, and if we can, then it is not a healthy sociable

living. What shall we do? A compromise between eating the flesh of

the animals and doing it in the most ecological and humane way as

possible, as most people here have shown. But let's concede that this

is a lesson that many of us are still at great pains to learn with

our hearts.

José

> animal products take enormous energy to bring to the market for

human

> consumption.

>

>

>

> so do vegetable products. especially the imported ones!

[Guest guest]

>

>And of course if we REALLY want less environmental impact we need less

>people.

I saw a bumper sticker once that said, " Save the planet: kill yourself. "

>

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Canfield

-God grades on the cross, not on the curve. -Anonymous

3:36: " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that

believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. "

[Guest guest]

" laurainnewjersey " <laurabusse@j...> wrote:

> animal products take enormous energy to bring to the market for

human

> consumption.

>

>

>

> so do vegetable products. especially the imported ones!

An enourmous amount of energy also goes into grain products to bring

them to market!!! There is a tremendous costs in labour, equipment,

diesel, pesticides and fertilizers . . . and the production of those

chemicals to bring grain products to market. Then not to mention the

cost of killing all those bugs/insects and " weeds " to grow the crop,

the thought which doesn't even affect vegetarians. Then if the farmer

is organic, there is the tripling of diesel and labour to grow the

organic grain.

In fact, our livestock takes less from us in costs to grow them and

get them to market than does the grain.

Actually, we are very discouraged about being organic farmers right

now. The prices for organic green peas have dropped by almost 50%

since last year. Argentina and China can grow the crops cheaper. The

only market we can find for our organic food quality green peas is

into the American " feed " market . . . yes for cows! As organic farmer,

we can't survive at those prices for organic green peas, one of our

main stays. Organic wheat is rock bottom unless you have high quality.

Organic flax is holding its own, just barely. Organic oats and barley

are almost worthless. Perhaps, too many farmers have turned organic

because we are not seeing an increased demand from the consumers. With

the increase costs in diesel, and the decreasing demand, what do we

do? How long can we hang on? Do we turn back to conventional farming?

Where are the damn decent markets for our organic grain products that

will compensate for our yield loss (compared to conventional farmers)

and for all our work out in the fields?

Gayle

[Guest guest]

> Re: reply...Heidi...more accurate

>

Then if the farmer

>is organic, there is the tripling of diesel and labour to grow the

>organic grain.

Gayle,

Could you please explain the tripling of diesel to grow organic grain?

Thanky :-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

" Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@v...> wrote:

> Could you please explain the tripling of diesel to grow organic

grain?

> Thanky :-)

Sure Suze!

Most conventional farmer use no-till or zero-till meaning they do not

pre-work the soil before seeding. So with last year's stubble on the

field, they zoom in with an airseeder with dual chutes (one for seed

and one for fertilizer). That is one pass with a tractor. Then, later

on, they come in with a sprayer and make the second pass on the field,

then at harvest, they make the third pass with the straight-cut header

combine. Three passes equals three " lots " of diesel. Sometimes four

passes, if the farmer decides to lay the field in swaths before

combining.

The organic farmer will pre-work the field one to two times, so we

will say two passes as the first pass stimulates the wild oats and

weeds, the second pass is to kill the weed flush before seeding. Then

he will go in with a airseeder for the third pass. Then he will go in

with a harrow packer bar for packing down the dirt to preserve

moisture for the fourth pass. Then he hopes to go in with a swather

when the weeds are higher than the crop to cut off the heads of the

weeds to reduce weed pressure for the fifth pass. At harvest time, he

goes in with a swather to lay the crop in swathes for the sixth pass

(rarely doing straight-cut combining as the weeds are often green

which would clog the combine which is not an issue for the

conventional farmer since they spray and kill the weeds prior.). Then

he goes in with the combine for the seventh pass. Then after harvest,

he does fall tillage to reduce weed pressure next spring for the

eighth pass. That is eight " lots " of diesel for the organic farmer

(2.66 times the conventional farmer).

Then if the organic farmer lets a field lie fallow (not seeded) for

one year to give the soil a rest, he may go in with 5 passes during

the year to keep weeds under control. The conventional farmer, if he

decides to let the field rest, will zoom in with a sprayer for one

pass and the job is done! That makes 5 diesel fills compared to the

conventional farmer's diesel fill of one. So the organic producer has

triple to quadruple the diesel costs of the conventional producer. But

shall we talk about the increased hours on the equipment such as the

tractor which triples to quadruples repair costs to equipment, rapidly

deteriorating the equipment and shortening the life span of a tractor

than a conventional farmer. I don't know, with organic prices dropping

maybe it is better to be a conventional farmer as we don't have deep

pockets for subsidization.

Gayle

[Guest guest]

> > animal products take enormous energy to bring to the market for

> human

> > consumption.

> >

> >

> >

> > so do vegetable products. especially the imported ones!

>

> An enourmous amount of energy also goes into grain products to bring

> them to market!!! There is a tremendous costs in labour, equipment,

> diesel, pesticides and fertilizers . . . and the production of

those

> chemicals to bring grain products to market. Then not to mention the

> cost of killing all those bugs/insects and " weeds " to grow the crop,

> the thought which doesn't even affect vegetarians. Then if the

farmer

> is organic, there is the tripling of diesel and labour to grow the

> organic grain.

>

> In fact, our livestock takes less from us in costs to grow them and

> get them to market than does the grain.

>

> Actually, we are very discouraged about being organic farmers right

> now. The prices for organic green peas have dropped by almost 50%

> since last year. Argentina and China can grow the crops cheaper. The

> only market we can find for our organic food quality green peas is

> into the American " feed " market . . . yes for cows! As organic

farmer,

> we can't survive at those prices for organic green peas, one of our

> main stays. Organic wheat is rock bottom unless you have high

quality.

> Organic flax is holding its own, just barely. Organic oats and

barley

> are almost worthless. Perhaps, too many farmers have turned organic

> because we are not seeing an increased demand from the consumers.

With

> the increase costs in diesel, and the decreasing demand, what do we

> do? How long can we hang on? Do we turn back to conventional

farming?

> Where are the damn decent markets for our organic grain products

that

> will compensate for our yield loss (compared to conventional

farmers)

> and for all our work out in the fields?

>

> Gayle

Gayle, i don't know where you are, but i believe CSA, community

supported agriculture, is the wave of the future.

there are at least 2 in central/northern NJ that i know of, and at

least the one, the one my sister and i joined, is expanding.

i presume you know what it is, but in a nutshell, people don't

really 'buy' your crop after it's harvested...they 'invest' in your

farm up front and get a share in its produce.

the farm we joined, honey brook organic farm (google them for their

web site) is in Pennington, NJ. it cost us $518 to get one family

share and it's more than enough for both of our families and they

raise EVERYTHING, even stuff i never heard of.

berries...flowers...herbs...it's incredible. and everything is

BEAUTIFUL. they have an electric fence for the deer (a BIG problem

here in NJ) and the last time i was there i witnessed the farm dog

trotting by with a dead groundhog in his mouth, while the farm

workers clapped!! it was really something. my son was picking

berries and i thought he missed it...but he saw it out in the field

before i did!

while i was chatting with one of the clapping workers, i found out

they need drivers as they drive boxed shares i don't know a radius of

how many miles...and the pay for the drivers is up to $18 per hour.

so, from may-nov we go once a week to get our 'share', and we each

paid $259 up front. that's $10 per week!!! and it's more than we

can use!!

the people at this farm are VERY friendly; and i'm sure they would

love to help spread this concept.

any questions from our end of it...i'll be happy to try to answer.

the web site has lots of info on it.

it's really a great thing.

is that something you might possibly be interested in finding out

about and maybe even trying to implement?

best to you and your farm,

laura in nj

[Guest guest]

>I saw a bumper sticker once that said, " Save the planet: kill yourself. "

>

>>

>

>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

>

> Canfield

It would be funny except a lot of people are doing just that ...

slowly ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>animal products take enormous energy to bring to the market for human

>consumption.

>

>

>so do vegetable products. especially the imported ones!

I think it really depends on the market. The things posted here

have been very enlightening!

FWIW, I live in a very depressed farming area. Most of the farmers closed shop

years ago, because, it's a very rainy, dreary sort of place that doesn't grow

stuff

fast enough and labor prices are high. Now some farms are reopening. One such

is our local " organic " guy. He does a little tractor work, a lot of hand work

(with his

family). Also brings in vegies from the other side of the mountains to sell. We

get

a share every year, and that provides much of our vegies, esp. lettuce, which is

to die for (he uses a greenhouse during the winter).

There are also lots of cows. Cows eating grass. Mostly people must toss a herd

into a field and, seemingly, leave them alone for a year or two. A lot of times

they are just there to keep the fields mowed. Many of the cows nowadays are

heritage breeds, like those shaggy ones from Scotland, and folks are raising

Emus

and Alpacas and Llamas. And selling them for meat, oil, and fiber.

Also, this area is full of BERRIES. TONS of them. We picked two gallons today.

Off a field that has been basically neglected for years. We get 40-50 lbs a

year,

and mind you, I don't actually plant these, they are mainly wild.

And don't get me started on chickens. Well, they are mainly there to eat

up our leftovers. They are garbage collectors extraodinaire. Also they

de-weed the garden and provide fertilizer. And we get more eggs than

we can use too!

What all of these have in common is *manual labor*. The folks involved

aren't paid any kind of decent wage ... they do it for fun or to make a basic

living. My dh picked berries for 2 hours. He makes a better living doing

programming, really! But it's fun, and we get our berries for the year.

What it does not take is oil or energy. I mean, a tractor makes life

easier, but folks were living our life way before tractors were invented.

It doesn't take a lot of space either. Most of our projects take less

than a good city lot, though I admit that the fact we don't live close

to neighbors makes me a little more willing to take risks.

This is the difference between " local production " and " commercial food " .

We CAN grow most of what we eat, and in this area of the country, people

did just that until very recently, mainly because that's what they could afford.

It's hard to remember that in 1900, 95% of the country were " subsistance

farmers "

and a few people lived in the city. Today that is reversed, with a few huge

farm conglomerates producing most of the food. But the trend may reverse,

and I think it will have to in the near future.

BTW one of our local restaurants, " the flying fish " contracts with a local

grower to

grow most of their vegies for the restaurant. There was a very amazing

dialog with the owner on NPR. Now I GOTTA go eat there!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

" laurainnewjersey " <laurabusse@j...> wrote:

> Gayle, i don't know where you are, but i believe CSA, community

> supported agriculture, is the wave of the future.

>

> there are at least 2 in central/northern NJ that i know of, and at

> least the one, the one my sister and i joined, is expanding.

I would think location is essential for CSA, . How far away is

your CSA from a main urban centre? We are 100 miles from four

different urban centres, which makes it difficult. I don't think my

rural area is ready for CSA. For example, when I offered organic eggs

at $1.50(Cdn)/doz or $1.85 (US)/doz., I had quite a number of clients.

In that price, I also had to deliver the eggs. I lost half of my

clients when I raised the price to $2.00(Cdn) or $2.50(US) with

delivery.

> i presume you know what it is, but in a nutshell, people don't

> really 'buy' your crop after it's harvested...they 'invest' in your

> farm up front and get a share in its produce.

Everyone has farms and gardens around here, so it wouldn't work here.

Our farm is also quite big compared to Salatin's theory.

> is that something you might possibly be interested in finding out

> about and maybe even trying to implement?

It sounds like you have had some wonderful experiences with your CSA.

More urban people need to do this.

> best to you and your farm,

Thank you. The only solution we can come up with is to move primarily

to flax, lentils, and spelt. Forget everything else.

Gayle

[Guest guest]

" gayle12345678 " <gayle123456789@h...> wrote:

> For example, when I offered organic eggs

> at $1.50(Cdn)/doz or $1.85 (US)/doz., I had quite a number of

clients.

> In that price, I also had to deliver the eggs. I lost half of my

> clients when I raised the price to $2.00(Cdn) or $2.50(US) with

> delivery.

I flipped the price transition on this , which is wrong. I am so

used to going from US prices to Canadian which is wrong in this case.

It should go from 1$1.50 (Cdn)/doz or $1.13 (US)/doz, and then the

price raise at $2.00 (Cdn) or $1.50 (US)/doz.

Gayle

[Guest guest]

>

> I would think location is essential for CSA, . How far away is

> your CSA from a main urban centre?

Gayle, NJ is the densest state in the nation...but there is still

open space here. both farms are about an hour from here. one near

princeton, and the other in the boonies. most of the people who join

either farm i would presume to live in the 'burbs.

We are 100 miles from four

> different urban centres, which makes it difficult. I don't think my

> rural area is ready for CSA. For example, when I offered organic

eggs

> at $1.50(Cdn)/doz or $1.85 (US)/doz., I had quite a number of

clients.

> In that price, I also had to deliver the eggs. I lost half of my

> clients when I raised the price to $2.00(Cdn) or $2.50(US) with

> delivery.

i guess the ideal is not to have farms all in one spot but

interspersed between cities. oops, i have stated the obvious!

>

> Everyone has farms and gardens around here, so it wouldn't work

here.

> Our farm is also quite big compared to Salatin's theory.

>

> It sounds like you have had some wonderful experiences with your

CSA.

> More urban people need to do this.

yes, yes!

>

The only solution we can come up with is to move primarily

> to flax, lentils, and spelt. Forget everything else.

>

well Gayle...i wish i knew what to say.

i hope something will come together for you.

all the best,

laura