Re: Unconditional Love

[Guest guest]

Wow, Marjorie!!

As a new member of this list, I'm amazed at the insights of

those who are here.

Thanks

A fellow Non-BP

[Guest guest]

In response to 's post, I don't have a good definition for love,

but I remembered that I have an article on unconditional love that

was printed in the newspaper some years ago. I forgot to record the

author's name.

From Parade magazine, March 29, 1998, p. 5

Title: Our Search For Love

Unconditional love is a popular talk-show topic, but it is little

understood. All infants are biologically entitled to unconditional love

and protection. It is their birthright, and it is their parents' birth

obligation. There is no such thing as a " good baby " or a " bad baby, "

which is why love and protectiveness must be unconditional for them all.

Those not given such love as children seek it throughout their adult

lives-some in ways very dangerous to themselves and to others. But

unconditional love can never be received by adults. It requires

behavior; it must be earned and maintained.

I once represented a child who had been horribly tortured by her

" mother. " On the witness stand, the abuser explained why she had burned

the child by holding her little hand against a hot stove grid; " She

wouldn't leave me alone. " The child's crime was to follow her mother

around the house, attempting to wring from her the love she so

desperately needed. Slaps and kicks did not stop the child's search for

love, so the " mother " decided more extreme measures were needed to

" teach her a lesson. " Too many of our children are being taught that

same lesson in a variety of hideous ways. And yet our tolerance

continues.

Here's what I tell so many formerly abused children who are now adults:

Look how desperately you wanted to bond with " parents " who would not

love you. That is not a defect; indeed, it can be a strength. It proves

that the ability to love has not been eradicated in you. But you must

choose carefully. Test, establish criteria, search - and resolve to be

alone if you cannot find what you deserve. Bonding, in and of itself, is

of no value unless the current flows in both directions.

When the biological families no longer function, the only option is to

create a family of choice - a family defined by shared purpose and

mutual respect, not ties of blood. When, as an adult, you can adopt a

child-protective pack mentality, you can bond with others and have the

family you need.

But that means to contribute, not to demand. You are no longer an

infant, no longer entitled to the " unconditional love " of which you were

robbed as a child. Yes, you were cheated. But if you devote your life to

the celebration of that theft, you are doomed.

[end of article]

Marjorie in Oregon

ahimsa@...

[Guest guest]

Thanks Marjorie...I think so much of what this article expresses the root of

bpd...that search for unconditional love and the feeling of unworthiness that

results form never being loved as that infant ...How sad for that little one who

was burned...Can you ever imagine finding that trust and love and the road dhe

must travel to have a healthy relationship...You have given me something to

ponder as I clean the never ending dirty house...Thanks again ..

RE: Unconditional Love

In response to 's post, I don't have a good definition for love,

but I remembered that I have an article on unconditional love that

was printed in the newspaper some years ago. I forgot to record the

author's name.

From Parade magazine, March 29, 1998, p. 5

Title: Our Search For Love

Unconditional love is a popular talk-show topic, but it is little

understood. All infants are biologically entitled to unconditional love

and protection. It is their birthright, and it is their parents' birth

obligation. There is no such thing as a " good baby " or a " bad baby, "

which is why love and protectiveness must be unconditional for them all.

Those not given such love as children seek it throughout their adult

lives-some in ways very dangerous to themselves and to others. But

unconditional love can never be received by adults. It requires

behavior; it must be earned and maintained.

I once represented a child who had been horribly tortured by her

" mother. " On the witness stand, the abuser explained why she had burned

the child by holding her little hand against a hot stove grid; " She

wouldn't leave me alone. " The child's crime was to follow her mother

around the house, attempting to wring from her the love she so

desperately needed. Slaps and kicks did not stop the child's search for

love, so the " mother " decided more extreme measures were needed to

" teach her a lesson. " Too many of our children are being taught that

same lesson in a variety of hideous ways. And yet our tolerance

continues.

Here's what I tell so many formerly abused children who are now adults:

Look how desperately you wanted to bond with " parents " who would not

love you. That is not a defect; indeed, it can be a strength. It proves

that the ability to love has not been eradicated in you. But you must

choose carefully. Test, establish criteria, search - and resolve to be

alone if you cannot find what you deserve. Bonding, in and of itself, is

of no value unless the current flows in both directions.

When the biological families no longer function, the only option is to

create a family of choice - a family defined by shared purpose and

mutual respect, not ties of blood. When, as an adult, you can adopt a

child-protective pack mentality, you can bond with others and have the

family you need.

But that means to contribute, not to demand. You are no longer an

infant, no longer entitled to the " unconditional love " of which you were

robbed as a child. Yes, you were cheated. But if you devote your life to

the celebration of that theft, you are doomed.

[end of article]

Marjorie in Oregon

ahimsa@...

[Guest guest]

welcome Cpaguy..I hope you find this list as helpful as I have found it and

especially tonight ..Thanks everyone..

Re: Unconditional Love

Wow, Marjorie!!

As a new member of this list, I'm amazed at the insights of

those who are here.

Thanks

A fellow Non-BP

[Guest guest]

this thread on UL has really got me thinking. How do we show unconditional

love? I can see where my nada's love is conditional.....she has cut both my

brothers out of her life because they don't agree with everything she says and

they set boundaries. That is not the love IMO a mother should have for her

kids. My kids rarely agree with me but I can see where we have a good

relationship. But it all comes back to how the children perceive our love. For

example, what if one of my kids was on drugs, he stole my credit cards, and

stole other things from my house. And let's say this kid is 19-20 years old. I

can continue to love this kid, but IMO I don't want him to continue to live in

my house. If after I tried intervening through counseling and/or rehabilitation

and his actions continued at that point I would feel that I would have to tell

him to live somewhere else. I may love this child very much. But is he going

to perceive it that way?

I think that is where love becomes all screwy. Because even if you love someone

very much, if they don't perceive that you love them how do you prove your love?

It also pertains to adult relationships too. You may love someone very much,

but if you aren't attuned to their needs or you can't meet their needs will they

know you love them?

So what is unconditional love? Is it what the parent gives.....and at that

point does my nada feel that she loves her sons unconditionally. Or is it what

the object of the love perceives it to be......and then does my husband not

really love me, because I feel he doesn't show it the way I want him to show it?

Just some thoughts on the subject

RE: Unconditional Love

In response to 's post, I don't have a good definition for love,

but I remembered that I have an article on unconditional love that

was printed in the newspaper some years ago. I forgot to record the

author's name.

From Parade magazine, March 29, 1998, p. 5

Title: Our Search For Love

Unconditional love is a popular talk-show topic, but it is little

understood. All infants are biologically entitled to unconditional love

and protection. It is their birthright, and it is their parents' birth

obligation. There is no such thing as a " good baby " or a " bad baby, "

which is why love and protectiveness must be unconditional for them all.

Those not given such love as children seek it throughout their adult

lives-some in ways very dangerous to themselves and to others. But

unconditional love can never be received by adults. It requires

behavior; it must be earned and maintained.

I once represented a child who had been horribly tortured by her

" mother. " On the witness stand, the abuser explained why she had burned

the child by holding her little hand against a hot stove grid; " She

wouldn't leave me alone. " The child's crime was to follow her mother

around the house, attempting to wring from her the love she so

desperately needed. Slaps and kicks did not stop the child's search for

love, so the " mother " decided more extreme measures were needed to

" teach her a lesson. " Too many of our children are being taught that

same lesson in a variety of hideous ways. And yet our tolerance

continues.

Here's what I tell so many formerly abused children who are now adults:

Look how desperately you wanted to bond with " parents " who would not

love you. That is not a defect; indeed, it can be a strength. It proves

that the ability to love has not been eradicated in you. But you must

choose carefully. Test, establish criteria, search - and resolve to be

alone if you cannot find what you deserve. Bonding, in and of itself, is

of no value unless the current flows in both directions.

When the biological families no longer function, the only option is to

create a family of choice - a family defined by shared purpose and

mutual respect, not ties of blood. When, as an adult, you can adopt a

child-protective pack mentality, you can bond with others and have the

family you need.

But that means to contribute, not to demand. You are no longer an

infant, no longer entitled to the " unconditional love " of which you were

robbed as a child. Yes, you were cheated. But if you devote your life to

the celebration of that theft, you are doomed.

[end of article]

Marjorie in Oregon

ahimsa@...

[Guest guest]

,

You pose a lot of good questions and I don't have the answers to all

your questions. I guess I'd start off with saying the way nada showed

love wasn't what the majority of healthy people would call love. It's

a confusion between love and hate where the lines are blurred.

Is love interpretative? Sure! The BP thinks a lot of love is an

external thing- 'if you love me, you'll do this or that to PROVE it'.

Love can't be proved anymore than God can be proved, IMHO. it's a

feeling and so it has to be felt with the heart and if the BP deosn't

have much of a concept of a heart, then they may have a very primite 2

year old's version of love with regards to relationships.

I find that faith is sometimes the greatest way I can show love to

someone who's doing something very harmful to themselves, who's not

loving themselves. Sometimes love is letting go to let other's fall

on their butts, but then offering a hand to help then up again. I

think if you let a drug addict stay in your house, regardless of who

they are, then there comes a time of a conflict of interest- loving

self versus buying into another's version of what they demand you do

to prove your love. Love the self and find out later on how to help

the other person.

As far as your hubby's concerned, maybe he doesn't know how you need

to be loved. What would he say about you? I mean does he think you

love him? Have you guys sat down and talked in a detached manner to

clear the air and say what it is both of you need out of this

relationship and define how it is that you think the other can help

meet those needs? My hubby and I have these little pow-wows every now

and then when we're getting off course and things are building up. We

clear the air and reassess the notion we both have faith in one

another and our intentions are pure, but our manners of showing it may

need to be altered. And it's like that old saying " When you're mad,

step back and count to 10. When you're really mad, count to 100. " and

then if you're so mad you can't cool down after 100, walk away for a

day or so. I have great difficulty having a logical discussion with

someone who's totally pissed me off. I have to take my space and time

and get back to the situation shortly so that I don't create more

damage. But that's me and how I am learning not to be my nada as she

says everything off the cuff and never takes responsibility for her

emotions much less her words and the effects they have on others.

Best of luck defining this one and getting suitable answers,

Kere

> this thread on UL has really got me thinking. How do we show

unconditional love? I can see where my nada's love is

conditional.....she has cut both my brothers out of her life because

they don't agree with everything she says and they set boundaries.

That is not the love IMO a mother should have for her kids. My kids

rarely agree with me but I can see where we have a good relationship.

But it all comes back to how the children perceive our love. For

example, what if one of my kids was on drugs, he stole my credit

cards, and stole other things from my house. And let's say this kid

is 19-20 years old. I can continue to love this kid, but IMO I don't

want him to continue to live in my house. If after I tried

intervening through counseling and/or rehabilitation and his actions

continued at that point I would feel that I would have to tell him to

live somewhere else. I may love this child very much. But is he

going to perceive it that way?

>

> I think that is where love becomes all screwy. Because even if you

love someone very much, if they don't perceive that you love them how

do you prove your love? It also pertains to adult relationships too.

You may love someone very much, but if you aren't attuned to their

needs or you can't meet their needs will they know you love them?

>

> So what is unconditional love? Is it what the parent gives.....and

at that point does my nada feel that she loves her sons

unconditionally. Or is it what the object of the love perceives it to

be......and then does my husband not really love me, because I feel he

doesn't show it the way I want him to show it?

>

> Just some thoughts on the subject

>

>

> RE: Unconditional Love

>

>

> In response to 's post, I don't have a good definition for

love,

> but I remembered that I have an article on unconditional love that

> was printed in the newspaper some years ago. I forgot to record

the

> author's name.

>

> From Parade magazine, March 29, 1998, p. 5

>

> Title: Our Search For Love

>

> Unconditional love is a popular talk-show topic, but it is little

> understood. All infants are biologically entitled to unconditional

love

> and protection. It is their birthright, and it is their parents'

birth

> obligation. There is no such thing as a " good baby " or a " bad

baby, "

> which is why love and protectiveness must be unconditional for

them all.

>

> Those not given such love as children seek it throughout their

adult

> lives-some in ways very dangerous to themselves and to others. But

> unconditional love can never be received by adults. It requires

> behavior; it must be earned and maintained.

>

> I once represented a child who had been horribly tortured by her

> " mother. " On the witness stand, the abuser explained why she had

burned

> the child by holding her little hand against a hot stove grid;

" She

> wouldn't leave me alone. " The child's crime was to follow her

mother

> around the house, attempting to wring from her the love she so

> desperately needed. Slaps and kicks did not stop the child's

search for

> love, so the " mother " decided more extreme measures were needed to

> " teach her a lesson. " Too many of our children are being taught

that

> same lesson in a variety of hideous ways. And yet our tolerance

> continues.

>

> Here's what I tell so many formerly abused children who are now

adults:

> Look how desperately you wanted to bond with " parents " who would

not

> love you. That is not a defect; indeed, it can be a strength. It

proves

> that the ability to love has not been eradicated in you. But you

must

> choose carefully. Test, establish criteria, search - and resolve

to be

> alone if you cannot find what you deserve. Bonding, in and of

itself, is

> of no value unless the current flows in both directions.

>

> When the biological families no longer function, the only option

is to

> create a family of choice - a family defined by shared purpose and

> mutual respect, not ties of blood. When, as an adult, you can

adopt a

> child-protective pack mentality, you can bond with others and have

the

> family you need.

>

> But that means to contribute, not to demand. You are no longer an

> infant, no longer entitled to the " unconditional love " of which

you were

> robbed as a child. Yes, you were cheated. But if you devote your

life to

> the celebration of that theft, you are doomed.

>

> [end of article]

>

> Marjorie in Oregon

> ahimsa@e...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kere,

I don't know that I was actually looking for answers. It made me think so I

could ask the questions of myself. From there I could make my determinations.

But it helped me to get your reply as it helps me to formalize my thoughts to

hear others thoughts and opinions.

I never felt safe with my mother's love. And in order to show love, you need

to learn to love yourself. And you also need to respect yourself. IMO people

can sense when someone loves and respects themself. With a BP they sense that

their actions are a result of a deep down neediness. Because of this BPs don't

show respect for others. One visual way is by respecting boundaries. Yes, I

agree love is a feeling, but love needs to be shown to others in a way they can

perceive it. Because I grew up with a skewed vision of how love is shown. I

know that I have had to readjust my ways of showing love and in how I expect

others to show it to me.

Just one question...how do we determine what is healthy? Is anyone really

completely healthy? What is healthy to one person, may not be healthy to

another. I heard somewhere that everyone has dysfunctional behaviors. They

only become a problem when they cause a negative impact on your life. So let's

say my husband and I both have very high incomes (sadly we don't but let's just

say) and we are both addicted to gambling. As long as we can afford the

gambling and it doesn't negatively impact our lives or our children's life, is

it dysfunctional?

As far as my hubby and I. I have had to learn to accept that he is not able to

meet all my needs. Does he still love me. Yea...I think he does. I've had

adjust MY perception of what love is and how it is shown to me. Just as I'm

sure he has had to adjust his perception of how love is shown to him. We've

both had to learn to deal with our fleas. I can honestly say we are both doing

a pretty good job. Do we slip...Oh yea! My husband has in the past used put

downs to win an argument. I'm the one who's had to learn to adjust my reactions

to that. When it starts I have to tell him he's being verbally abusive and walk

away. Not only to protect myself, but to show my boys that verbal abuse is

unacceptable and they need to learn to walk away also. I also need to learn to

forgive myself for my inappropriate actions. Otherwise it escalates into a

major fight. I slipped big time the other night. All I can do is sit back and

say " I made a mistake " and try to do better next time. I've spent to many

years not accepting my mistakes. A lesson I learned from my nada, who accepts

no mistakes. I'm learning that I can't control other's actions...I can only

control my reactions.

We are always going to find triggers in our life. There are people I know

socially and at work who trigger me horribly. I've had to accept that I am

probably going to trigger some people. Just like I feel that things I say

trigger you. I hate to think that there are people who don't like me, but I'm

sure there are. Because of fleas, many of which I still have, I'm sure I act

inappropriately or say the wrong things somethimes. I get very upset to know

that happens, because it makes me doubt myself....do I have BPD? But when

someone triggers me, I try to understand where they are coming from. And I can

only hope others can do the same for me. Everyone of us has had different

experiences and so we have different takes on each situation. That is what is

so great about this group. I can post from my experiences and when I get

replies I can get other people's takes from their experiences on the same

situation. My past experiences are so skewed because my examples have been my

nada. We moved around so much I never developed close friends. Plus I never

developed the skills necessary to develop close friends. I think the major one

is " trust " . I know many people see me as standoffish. I hate that I give that

impression, but it's a protective shell I've developed from moving every year

and always being the " new " person. I'm working on it, but how do you change a

lifetime of learned habits.

We were talking awhile ago about how different my boys are. I have the one who

is very outspoken and always wants to right the wrongs of the world. I think

that is a wonderful quality. I am so proud of him for having that quality. I

always wish I had had the guts or self-esteem to do that. I'm just afraid for

him that he is going to get hurt in his life. I think many times people like

that are judged harshly and unjustly. Part of me wants him to continue to

follow that path, but another part of me wants him learn to adapt more so he

won't get hurt. That's my problem, that I'm going to have to work on. He can

only follow HIS heart and do what is best for him. I only know that as a parent

it is hard to watch your kids get into situations where you feel he might get

hurt, but yet know it's not your job to protect them anymore.

[Guest guest]

Barb and all~

What a wonderful story. How heartwarming. It brings to mind something I have

been so proud of lately. After all the postings about making lists, I have

realized the biggest reason I am not like Nada. I am VERY GOOD at teaching my

daughter that love exists even in anger and frustration! I am always telling

her that I love her even when I am angry and even when she is bad. This is

something Nada NEVER did. I am also working on teaching her how to change her

mood around when she is upset. I tell her that her feelings are important, they

are OK, and that she can take responsibility for changing her attitude. I tell

her that all the bad feelings can dissappear and all her love and happiness will

still be there and never go away. We talk about God, too. Just yesterday I was

explaining that God has space in His heart for all people and things. She was

worried because she is beginning to understand that Mommy loves more people than

just her. I told her that God teaches us how to keep many different people and

things in our hearts at the same time, just like Him. I told her that she had

the most special place in my heart. It was so amazing to see my daughter's face

light up with this wonderful feeling of security and hope and comfort and love.

How could my own mother have missed the boat on that? How could she let me grow

up so uncomfortable and lost? How could she do it to herself? That incredible

bond of love and trust is what makes parenting so wonderful. Every time my

daughter's face lights up when she sees me I just melt. When her eyes are sad

or fearful, I feel the same and want to drown her with affection and protection.

Sometimes I ask myself why my mother even had me or how she felt when she saw my

eyes. I remember being sad and fearful most of the time; if she had any

maternal instinct, I must have made her even more miserable all the time. I am

so glad I can be aware and save my own beautiful little girl from the same bad

feelings and offer her the additional security of God's love. This awareness

helps me as a KO, too. Everytime those bad feelings come up, I am powerful

enough and different from Nada enough to make them go away and allow the love

and happiness to shine through.

Blessings to you and all,

Sara

Barb Tremon wrote:I thought you might like this little story that

illustrates unconditional love so beautifully!

Making Pancakes

---------------------------------