180 degree milk is very non-raw!

[Guest guest]

boiling point is 180, I think. that's when small bubbles come around

the edge of the pan. Heating cow milk to this point and letting it

cool is a traditional way to reduce its mucus-creating properties

without losing all the raw milk benefits. Also the temp Mother

says to heat to to make firm yogurt in the last issue of Wise Traditions.

[MikeP] Well, if " raw milk benefits " refer to properties that raw milk

has and heat-treated milk doesn't have, then you most certainly would

be losing *all* the raw milk benefits!! Heating milk in a saucepan to

180 is a significantly stronger form of heat-treatment than commercial

pasteurization. The benefits of raw milk are typically cited as

enzymes and perhaps other unique mystery substances in milk that are

heat-labile. You will definitely lose all of these. There are

substances in milk, like folate-binding proteins, that are deactivated

in the neighborhood of pasteurization temps, but 10 degrees plus or

minus makes a big difference. There's no single cut-off point in

temperature that's nutritionally significant, because different

substances respond in different ways to different temps. I'm not

saying there's anything bad about heat-treated milk; it's just a

tradeoff. It's a mystery to me why anyone bothers to make yogurt

instead of kefir, but I've never expected the universe to make any

sense...

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

It's a mystery to me why anyone bothers to make yogurt

> instead of kefir,

Mike, despite the fact that kefir is easier to make and is probably

better for you than yogurt, i prefer the taste of yogurt to kefir and

it's a nice switch from kefir. i do make and drink kefir but i'm not

always that crazy about it. some days it tastes better than others.

laura in nj

[Guest guest]

> > i prefer the taste of yogurt to kefir and

> > it's a nice switch from kefir. i do make and drink kefir but i'm

> > not always that crazy about it. some days it tastes better than

> > others.

>

> I know! I've tried kefir for about a year. With p & h milk, it makes

> a decent drink (thick, creamy). With raw: sour and thin, almost

> rotten-smelling. Sure, playing with the grains-to-milk ratio

> improves the taste and texture, but it is never as good as when I

> use p & h milk. <sigh>

>

> Naomi

Ohhh, I get it now. That makes a lot of sense really. Raw milk

contains lots of organisms

that will grow quickly if you let the milk get warm. The kefir grains

have to compete with those organisms. Pasteurized milk is close enough

to sterile that the kefir doesn't have much, if any competition, so

the end product will be more kefir-like and less like curdled milk.

If you want the kefir grains to do most of the fermentation you want

to minimize the native organism fermentation by using fresh milk

(native organism population will be at its lowest) and as many kefir

grains as possible so the kefir fermentation can happen faster than

the 'curdled milk' fermentation. As far as fermenting in the fridge

goes, maybe kefir ferments better at low temperatures then native milk

bacteria does? Anybody know? I bet Dom does.

Is this why some raw milk advocates boil the milk before they make

yogurt? I just couldn't understand that until now! (boiling beautiful

raw milk! ACK! heresy!)

Jan

[Guest guest]

>

> You can make kefir in the fridge using a very high grains-to-milk

> ratio; it takes a week or two,

Mike, it only takes mine 2-3 days in the fridge. usually 2. 4 tops.

depending on the current grains to milk ratio.

but the results are reliably thick and

> creamy and mild. Many people prefer it, though I find the flavor is

> not quite as sophisticated and kefir-like as the normal room temp

> ferment.

i think kefir brewed in the fridge tastes much better than kefir brewed

at room temp. but that's just me.

laura in nj

[Guest guest]

> [MikeP] Well, if " raw milk benefits " refer to properties that raw milk

> has and heat-treated milk doesn't have, then you most certainly would

> be losing *all* the raw milk benefits!! Heating milk in a saucepan to

> 180 is a significantly stronger form of heat-treatment than commercial

> pasteurization. The benefits of raw milk are typically cited as

> enzymes and perhaps other unique mystery substances in milk that are

> heat-labile. You will definitely lose all of these. There are

> substances in milk, like folate-binding proteins, that are deactivated

> in the neighborhood of pasteurization temps, but 10 degrees plus or

> minus makes a big difference. There's no single cut-off point in

> temperature that's nutritionally significant, because different

> substances respond in different ways to different temps. I'm not

> saying there's anything bad about heat-treated milk; it's just a

> tradeoff. It's a mystery to me why anyone bothers to make yogurt

> instead of kefir, but I've never expected the universe to make any

> sense...

Mike,

I'm referring to what is written in Ayurvedic books. They consider

milk fresh from the cow--not more than 5 hours old--to be ideal. After

that, the milk is considered best *gently* heated until the small

bubbles come around the edge of the pan. This is considered much

superior to commercial pasteurization, for what exact reason, I don't

know. The advice specifies to get highest-quality raw milk from a

good source and, if mucus is a problem, to do this gentle heat

treatment on it. This somehow reduces the milk's mucus-promoting

abilities. I was wonderering if it had anything to do with the casein

thing Suze talked about in a post last week.

Raw milk, according to the yogis, has a very cold, wet, sweet quality

that enhances mucus formation. People that already have a high level

of this quality in their constitution are going to increase it by

drinking raw cow dairy, leading to mucus congestion, water-retention

type bloating, dampness. Fermenting the milk will increase this

quality further. Heating the milk to about 180 somehow changes

this-- " drying " and " heating " it a it--further enhanced by adding a bit

of pungent, drying spices like, ginger, cardamom and maybe some honey,

which is also pungent and drying in quality.

Interesting (to me) according to the yogis, goat milk does not have

this cold, sweet quality, but is warm (hot) with a pungent vipak

(after effect on the organism) therefore, it is not so mucus-forming

with all associated complications, and useful for people with that

constitution, though still in small amounts, if even tolerated at all.

What really fascinates me, are that wheat is considered very

problematic--and highly discouraged--for this constitution, which

would be about 30% of the population, the same number Heidi says

comes up gluten-intolerant IIRC.

No, I cannot offer any citations to support any of this. This stuff

is recorded observations of sages in meditation long, long time ago.

I simply find it of interest how much this old wisdom corresponds with

discoveries I'm making about myself and what I read discussed on this

and other lists.

B.