Re: Re: 180 degree milk is very non-raw!

[Guest guest]

On 7/3/05, laurainnewjersey <laurabusse@...> wrote:

> Mike, despite the fact that kefir is easier to make and is probably

> better for you than yogurt, i prefer the taste of yogurt to kefir and

> it's a nice switch from kefir. i do make and drink kefir but i'm not

> always that crazy about it. some days it tastes better than others.

I know! I've tried kefir for about a year. With p & h milk, it makes a

decent drink (thick, creamy). With raw: sour and thin, almost

rotten-smelling. Sure, playing with the grains-to-milk ratio improves

the taste and texture, but it is never as good as when I use p & h

milk. <sigh>

Naomi

[Guest guest]

[] Mike, despite the fact that kefir is easier to make and is probably

better for you than yogurt, i prefer the taste of yogurt to kefir and

it's a nice switch from kefir. i do make and drink kefir but i'm not

always that crazy about it. some days it tastes better than others.

[Naomi] I know! I've tried kefir for about a year. With p & h milk, it makes a

decent drink (thick, creamy). With raw: sour and thin, almost

rotten-smelling. Sure, playing with the grains-to-milk ratio improves

the taste and texture, but it is never as good as when I use p & h

milk. <sigh>

[MikeP] Naomi, keep trying! I've been making kefir daily for about

2.5 years and I've never used anything but raw milk (mainly cow milk,

but also goat and sheep from time to time). (I vowed never to touch

p/h milk again a few years ago when I learned about all this stuff;

I'd drop milk entirely in a heartbeaet if the real thing was

unavailable to me.) Among those hundreds of gallons of kefir, I've

seen every variation on thick/thin, creamy/grainy, vinegary/mild, etc

you could possibly imagine! More often than not, my kefir is creamy,

thick, and outrageously delicious, the most delicious food I've ever

had in my life, though I should emphasize I enjoy sour tastes in

general.

By the way, a fairly significant factor in the texture is simply the

fat content. A few extra percent of fat can make a batch quite

radically thicker and creamier. The most astonishing kefir I've made

was from sheep milk at the very end of lactation, when the fat percent

is highest, probably pushing 10%. It was ridiculously thick and

creamy kefir. In fact, it was like drinking thick cream except it was

sour, yeasty, fizzy, etc because it was actually kefir! Quite often,

my typical mundane Jersey milk, probably only around 4% fat, makes

very thick and creamy kefir. That said, you can still get thick and

creamy kefir even from skim milk. The fat content is only one of

several factors...

You can make kefir in the fridge using a very high grains-to-milk

ratio; it takes a week or two, but the results are reliably thick and

creamy and mild. Many people prefer it, though I find the flavor is

not quite as sophisticated and kefir-like as the normal room temp

ferment. It's a great thing to try and it is pretty fabulously tasty

in its own right.

More so than the grains/milk ratio, the temperature is probably the

biggest factor in the resulting kefir's texture and taste. Summer is

always frustrating as I get some very grainy batches. I enjoy very

sour kefir and I don't mind if it's thin, but the small, grainy curds

are an undesirable texture for me. I've seen conflicting claims about

the ideal temps for kefir, some pretty low and some upwards of 90F; I

don't know the facts, but most of what I've read suggests it's the

higher ranges, probably around 80F. Of course, the great charm of

kefir is its flexibility and I enjoy getting a surprise with every new

batch.

In any case, I've had ample experiences that serves as counterexamples

to your generalization about raw vs p/h kefir.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

On 7/3/05, Anton <michaelantonparker@...> wrote:

> [MikeP] Naomi, keep trying! I've been making kefir daily for about

> 2.5 years and I've never used anything but raw milk (mainly cow milk,

> but also goat and sheep from time to time). (I vowed never to touch

> p/h milk again a few years ago when I learned about all this stuff;

> I'd drop milk entirely in a heartbeaet if the real thing was

> unavailable to me.)

The woman I got the grains from uses only organic p & h milk. Her

kefir was excellent. I brought the grains home and plopped it in raw,

and at first it did okay, but over time it started getting thinner.

When this happened, I got some p & h milk thinking it would " revive "

the grains to make more creamy kefir. It sure did! I even experimented

using a raw and p & h combo, but this still made sour, thin kefir that

I find undrinkable. My grains seem awfully picky! Their prima donna

attitude is getting me down, LOL.

> Among those hundreds of gallons of kefir, I've

> seen every variation on thick/thin, creamy/grainy, vinegary/mild, etc

> you could possibly imagine! More often than not, my kefir is creamy,

> thick, and outrageously delicious, the most delicious food I've ever

> had in my life, though I should emphasize I enjoy sour tastes in

> general.

I've been learning to appreciate sour foods since discovering NT, but

this sure is testing my limits. I just don't like very sour cow's

milk. I'm fine with very sour sauerkraut and kimchi (although my last

batch, I put in too much ground fish! Yuck! It's shoved to the back of

the fridge for a while).

>

> By the way, a fairly significant factor in the texture is simply the

> fat content. A few extra percent of fat can make a batch quite

> radically thicker and creamier. The most astonishing kefir I've made

> was from sheep milk at the very end of lactation, when the fat percent

> is highest, probably pushing 10%. It was ridiculously thick and

> creamy kefir. In fact, it was like drinking thick cream except it was

> sour, yeasty, fizzy, etc because it was actually kefir!

Yum! That sounds delicious. I used to get a wonderful organic goat's

milk from a local farmer, but she retired. My grains did really well

with this milk.

> Quite often,

> my typical mundane Jersey milk, probably only around 4% fat, makes

> very thick and creamy kefir. That said, you can still get thick and

> creamy kefir even from skim milk. The fat content is only one of

> several factors...

I've never tried skim, thinking it would produce an even thinner

kefir. But it's worth a try!

>

> You can make kefir in the fridge using a very high grains-to-milk

> ratio; it takes a week or two, but the results are reliably thick and

> creamy and mild.

I didn't think to leave it in grains for longer than a few days! It's

worth a try, but I have no idea how old the milk is once I get it from

the HFS. There's always an " expiration date " (pretty funny to see on a

raw milk container), but find that doesn't help for kefir-making.

>

> More so than the grains/milk ratio, the temperature is probably the

> biggest factor in the resulting kefir's texture and taste. Summer is

> always frustrating as I get some very grainy batches. I enjoy very

> sour kefir and I don't mind if it's thin, but the small, grainy curds

> are an undesirable texture for me.

Summer has been very challenging. At night and in the morning, the

temperature is in the low to mid-70s in my house. The kefir is usually

fine at these temperatures, but I find that I have to remove it by the

early afternoon or it separates and starts to taste bad. I don't know

what happens, but sometimes it'll just start rapidly fermenting. I can

make very soda pop-y kefir.

> I've seen conflicting claims about

> the ideal temps for kefir, some pretty low and some upwards of 90F; I

> don't know the facts, but most of what I've read suggests it's the

> higher ranges, probably around 80F.

That's interesting! At 80 to 90F, you sure wouldn't have to leave it

out for very long.

Naomi

[Guest guest]

I make raw milk kefir, and imo, it totally depends on the quality of

the milk (duh). I just moved to CA and my kefir these days is

markedly inferior to the stuff I made in NY with PA milk. Kefir made

with CA raw milk is thin, except for the fat globs from the cream (I

have to add extra cream b/c the milk is so lacking...) Sigh.

[Guest guest]

On 7/6/05, <jessclaire@...> wrote:

> I make raw milk kefir, and imo, it totally depends on the quality of

> the milk (duh). I just moved to CA and my kefir these days is

> markedly inferior to the stuff I made in NY with PA milk. Kefir made

> with CA raw milk is thin, except for the fat globs from the cream (I

> have to add extra cream b/c the milk is so lacking...) Sigh.

>

>

OK, this is good to know. I don't know if I want to add raw cream, as

it's about $12 for a pint. The raw milk is $8 for a half gallon. Do

you get yours from the HFS, or someone private?

Naomi

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 7/8/05, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> No, I cannot offer any citations to support any of this. This stuff

> is recorded observations of sages in meditation long, long time ago.

> I simply find it of interest how much this old wisdom corresponds with

> discoveries I'm making about myself and what I read discussed on this

> and other lists.

> B.

Hi ,

<standard lurker intro here>

Would you mind listing a few resources you've found useful in learning

Ayurveda? I'm looking for both theoretical exposition and, ideally,

a bit about the history and its connections with yoga/sankhya/etc.

The more detail and complexity the better, as I'm willing to do my

homework...

There's quite a bit on the Ayurvedic Institute's site (both books and

introductory material), but any recommendations would be really

helpful.

Thanks a lot,