Re: Mastering Leptin

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Are they different? Which do you have? Which do you recommend?

They're different editions of the same book. You want the second edition,

dated May 2004. I think he proudly credits his wife for the awful English

in both versions.

-

[Guest guest]

Well, surprisingly, I ate a 1.5 hour dinner last night AND didn't eat

a potato like planned, but did stragiht low-carb (only carbs were the

onions and peppers in a stir-fry at the beginning of dinner) and went

to bed 4 HOURS after eating, and slept fine!

So, low-carb, unexpectedly, didn't bother my sleep, and waiting so

long, unexpectedly, didn't bother my sleep.

Come to think of it, I've never even tried waiting that long. So

maybe it works different on s' schedule than it would eating 2

hours versus 1/2 hour before, big meal at night, etc.

We'll see how things go...

Chris

[Guest guest]

I haven't gotten the book yet, but I've been doing two meals,

low-carb, with 5-6 hours between, and at least 4 hours before bed.

I've also started following his recommendation to wait 3 hours after

eating before exercising, which I read on an Amazon review.

On the 23rd, when I started (both the meal scheduling and the

low-carbing), an hour after eating breakfast I registered at

22.something% body fat on the Tanita scale. My pre-breakfast morning

weigh-in at home was 168.

Today, the 26th, my pre-breakfast morning weigh-in at home was 162, so

I have lost six pounds. I ate a nearly identical breakfast to that on

the 23rd today, but I went to the gym about 3 hours after instead of 1

hour after. The Tanita weighed me in at 13.5%.

Oddly, it seems that I'm losing fat mostly in my upper back, where I

really don't need to lose fat. I'm not losing much around my

mid-section, but we'll see how it goes. First week isn't even up yet.

I've decided to dump cheese for now and make improving my digestion a

priority. Typical breakfast is a shake with 6 raw egg yolks, 3 Tbsp

VCO, a few Tbsp wild blueberries, and water, and then some red meat

and broccoli with butter. Typical dinner is a couple Tbsp VCO, two

slices of bacon, a heaping plate-full of hamburger crumbles, assorted

colors of bell peppers, and onions, sauteed in bacon fat and VCO with

Eden wheat-free tarmari and various spices, and a bowl of cream of

chicken soup, and maybe some steamed kale with butter if I can fit it

in.

Also, I am following this novel idea of stopping eating when I am

full. I have usually eaten beyond satiety to try to get bigger. I

imagine that messes up your metabolism and leptin signaling.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

>>Are they different? Which do you have? Which do you recommend?

>>

>>

>

>They're different editions of the same book. You want the second edition,

>dated May 2004. I think he proudly credits his wife for the awful English

>in both versions.

>

The book arrived today. Thank you so much for recommending it. It is

sure a whole lot meatier than the warrior book, regardless of language

usage.

Now, you do a two meal a day version of this " diet " Atkins style,

correct? I notice the authors say some carbohydrate is needed for

electrolytes, digestion, heart health, etc. Any comments?

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Now, you do a two meal a day version of this " diet " Atkins style,

>correct? I notice the authors say some carbohydrate is needed for

>electrolytes, digestion, heart health, etc. Any comments?

Heart health? Hah! I'm not saying eat a zero-carb diet. I don't even do

that, and I'm lower-carb than most. But s is way too pro-carb. I

think partly it's a matter of unexamined assumptions and partly it's his

need to attack the Atkins plan very viciously as a closely-related

competitor. The other issue, of course, is that people nowadays are

unaccustomed to the idea of getting a lot of their nutrition from organs

and glands -- muscle meat rules the market.

-

[Guest guest]

,

>Heart health? Hah! I'm not saying eat a zero-carb diet. I don't even do

>that, and I'm lower-carb than most. But s is way too pro-carb. I

>think partly it's a matter of unexamined assumptions and partly it's his

>need to attack the Atkins plan very viciously as a closely-related

>competitor.

>

Of course, the old slam the competitor bit. I think that the carb

recommendations - from what little I've read - are really vague. He has

to have a different spin on his diet to sell books as well, which might

explain that. But it seems to be a great book on all things leptin.

>The other issue, of course, is that people nowadays are

>unaccustomed to the idea of getting a lot of their nutrition from organs

>and glands -- muscle meat rules the market.

>

True. I am only doing organs once a week now, and while it's more than

most, I could benefit from more. I pick up more next month.

Do you consume alcohol at all? I have dropped it completely for at

least a few weeks and limit to once a week after that, because I think

it may be my stumbling block to weight loss and running speed. What do

you think?

TIA,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>Do you consume alcohol at all?

Until I got sick from the mold, I hadn't had a drop of anything in many

months except for the odd sip of wine used for cooking. These infernal

tinctures, though, are alcohol-based, and the alcohol is definitely messing

things up a bit.

>I have dropped it completely for at

>least a few weeks and limit to once a week after that, because I think

>it may be my stumbling block to weight loss and running speed. What do

>you think?

It can definitely be a problem. Alcohol shuts down fat burning -- for how

long depends on a lot of factors.

-

[Guest guest]

,

Until I got sick from the mold, I hadn't had a drop of anything in many

> months except for the odd sip of wine used for cooking. These infernal

> tinctures, though, are alcohol-based, and the alcohol is definitely

> messing

> things up a bit.

Anything tinctured can be found whole and encapsulated. Historically, plant

medicine worked when alcohol was unknown of. Very sick people got what they

needed without alcohol. Some plants have strong alkaloids that the alcohol

draws out excessively. This area's best known herbalist was diagnosed with

liver cancer and gone in a week.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Hi

I have a question to those that might know.

Someone on this list who read Ron Rosedale's book on

Leptin said that he wasn't in favor of saturated fat.

This doesn't make sense to me, as in an article

printed by Mercola entitled " Wise Up and Stop Eating

Your Muscles for Fuel " he states we need to be fat

burners, not carbo burners - Just like the other

leptin books mentioned. How does Rosedale expect

someone to become a fat burner by eliminating a fat

source that is common in all meats and dairy. It just

doesn't make sense to me.

Did he actually say saturated fats are a problem in

his book or not??? If he does, then what in the world

is he recommending people to eat??

jafa

__________________________________

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[Guest guest]

> Hi

>

> I have a question to those that might know.

> Did he actually say saturated fats are a problem in

> his book or not??? If he does, then what in the world

> is he recommending people to eat??

I read the Rosedale book and thought it was lightweight so I didn't

keep it and can't look it up, but what I understood was, to eat the

leaner animal proteins. Not like supermarket ground beef with an

unnaturally high percent of fat from grain feeding in feedlots. Which

makes sense to me because what I'm trying to get rid of is my own

stored fat from grains and sedentary living - why would I want to

ingest another animal's LOL

so what you would eat is the PC " good fat " - fat naturally occurring in

grassfed meat, dairy, wild fish, free range poultry, olives, avocados

etc.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Jafa-

>Someone on this list who read Ron Rosedale's book on

>Leptin said that he wasn't in favor of saturated fat.

>This doesn't make sense to me, as in an article

>printed by Mercola entitled " Wise Up and Stop Eating

>Your Muscles for Fuel " he states we need to be fat

>burners, not carbo burners - Just like the other

>leptin books mentioned. How does Rosedale expect

>someone to become a fat burner by eliminating a fat

>source that is common in all meats and dairy. It just

>doesn't make sense to me.

>

>Did he actually say saturated fats are a problem in

>his book or not??? If he does, then what in the world

>is he recommending people to eat??

I haven't read Rosedale's book. I did listen to his teleconference with

Mercola, though, and his advice is just inconsistent. He recommends that

we train our bodies to be fat-burners and he even warned that unsaturated

vegetable oils are far from ideal in the teleconference due to their

oxidizability, but his recipes and dietary advice in his book, from what

I've seen, are absurd and don't square at all with his underlying advice.

So go ahead and eat fatty animal foods rich in saturated animal fat!

-

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>Which

>makes sense to me because what I'm trying to get rid of is my own

>stored fat from grains and sedentary living - why would I want to

>ingest another animal's LOL

Actually, though that sounds sensible, I believe it's incorrect. As

s and others point out, the body gets into habits. You could even

say ruts. It likes to burn just what it's used to burning. So while

s recommends limiting dietary saturated fat intake while losing

weight in order to force the body to consume its own excess saturated fat,

I think the underlying theory -- and my experience -- suggest the exact

opposite. By eating saturated fat in abundance, you will train your body

to burn saturated fat and in fact to prefer it, meaning it will _more

readily_ dip into its own stores when necessary.

-

[Guest guest]

>> Which

makes sense to me because what I'm trying to get rid of is my own

stored fat from grains and sedentary living - why would I want to

ingest another animal's LOL

<<

Because it works?

I've lost 130 pounds getting 75 percent of my calories from fat. While it's true

that I do eat some olive oil, nuts, olives, and maybe the odd avocado (not a big

fave of mine), nearly all of that is animal fat.

Counter-intuitive, maybe, but dietary fat does not make you fat. Eat fat, get

lean.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

http://www.doggedblog.com/

[Guest guest]

On 9/1/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> Which

> makes sense to me because what I'm trying to get rid of is my own

> stored fat from grains and sedentary living - why would I want to

> ingest another animal's LOL

If you aren't going to eat another animal's " stored " calories, then

you are going to eat a plant's " stored " calories, so what is the

difference? In one case, you have stored saturated fats, and in

another you have stored starches, and in another you have stored

unsaturated oils. The fact that they are stored extra energy is not

something that differentiates foods, but something all calorie-dense

foods have in common.

So the two alternatives in that particular sense are to eat enough

calories, or to pursue calorie restriction.

> so what you would eat is the PC " good fat " - fat naturally occurring in

> grassfed meat, dairy, wild fish, free range poultry, olives, avocados

> etc.

This wouldn't lead to a recommendation to avoid saturated fat. Dairy

is much more fatty than meat, and much more saturated. I would also

point out that dairy fat is not an animal's stored fat from excess

calorie intake, but fat that is provided for the offspring for growth.

The same is true of eggs, which are about 75% fat.

So how a recommendation to avoid grass-fed meat would lead one away

from saturated fat is beyond me.

In any case, I would think that a fat-burning diet would provide the

fats that are least stressful for the body to burn, which are

saturated fats. There's a reason that the body's synthetic pathway

produces palmitic acid, a saturated fat.

Chris

--

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[Guest guest]

> the body

> gets into habits. You could even

> say ruts. It likes to burn just what it's used to burning.

Yes, I think so too.

> s recommends limiting dietary saturated

> fat intake while losing

> weight in order to force the body to

> consume its own excess saturated fat,

> I think the underlying theory --

> and my experience -- suggest the exact

> opposite. By eating saturated fat in

> abundance, you will train your body

> to burn saturated fat and in fact to prefer it,

> meaning it will _more

> readily_ dip into its own stores when necessary.

Yes I agree that having abundant saturated fat to burn,

trains the body to burn saturated fat.

In my experience, the " when necessary " part is

where it gets interesting. I agree with s'

money metaphor where he says if you have all the cash

you need in your wallet (for me, that's like cheap

fatty supermarket meat), then depending on the " burn "

demand (exercise), I might not ever need to go to the ATM

(stored fat.)

Don't get me wrong, I don't live on white meat turkey and egg whites,

blecch. I eat everything. I just try to slant towards wild fish and

free range meat and eggs. Imported cheese too (raw dairy is available

but I don't want to do the driving hours to farms thing)

Connie

[Guest guest]

> Because it works?

>

> I've lost 130 pounds getting 75 percent of my calories from fat.

While it's true that I do eat some olive oil, nuts, olives, and maybe

the odd avocado (not a big fave of mine), nearly all of that is animal

fat.

My dietary fat is animal fat too. I don't avoid dietary fat, just the

corn- and soy-fed feedlot kind. I had some of that beef once, can't

remember the name, where they pamper the cows and never let them get

stressed. It was amazing! So tender and melt-in-the-mouth.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>In my experience, the " when necessary " part is

>where it gets interesting. I agree with s'

>money metaphor where he says if you have all the cash

>you need in your wallet (for me, that's like cheap

>fatty supermarket meat), then depending on the " burn "

>demand (exercise), I might not ever need to go to the ATM

>(stored fat.)

This is true up to a point, but it's also true that saturated fat

(particularly long-chain saturated animal fat) is the most satiating food

you can eat, and is the best thing to enable you to go a long time between

meals even when working out.

Like Christie, I've lost a lot of weight eating boatloads of fat, and since

my main fat sources are dairy (cream and fermented cream, butter and

cheese) and fatty sausage, mostly homemade, I'm getting a very high portion

of my fat as saturated fat.

-

[Guest guest]

> If you aren't going to eat another animal's " stored " calories, then

> you are going to eat a plant's " stored " calories, so what is the

> difference?

The difference in my mind is about " storage fat " not " stored

calories " . Are you familiar with Schwarzbein's metaphor of

structural versus storage fats? that's where the notion comes from.

> This wouldn't lead to a recommendation to avoid saturated fat.

> So how a recommendation to avoid grass-fed meat would lead one away

> from saturated fat is beyond me.

I believe Rosedale's recommendation was to emphasize grass-fed, not

avoid it. I think he just said avoid excess fat that was made from

feeding animals corn and soy. I think.

> In any case, I would think that a fat-burning diet would provide the

> fats that are least stressful for the body to burn, which are

> saturated fats. There's a reason that the body's synthetic pathway

> produces palmitic acid, a saturated fat.

yes, agreed.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Connie-

>I believe Rosedale's recommendation was to emphasize grass-fed, not

>avoid it. I think he just said avoid excess fat that was made from

>feeding animals corn and soy. I think.

Presumably that's because he buys into the myth that grass-fed means

lean. In fact, grass-fed animals accumulate fat just fine, but they do it

a lot more slowly than animals fed grains and legumes in confinement. The

distribution is also somewhat different. Because it's not economical to

raise animals for extra years, grass-fed meat is sold young and lean,

though part of the reason is probably that lean is widely believed to be

healthier. Unfortunately, just as fat takes time to accumulate (in a

properly-raised animal) so does nutrition itself, so these young and lean

animals we find on the market are giving us the shaft twice over.

-

[Guest guest]

> Like Christie, I've lost a lot of weight eating

> boatloads of fat,

hey congrats! that's very cool.

Speaking of the burn rate, did you see this " Problems in the Furnace? "

about insulin resistance and muscle burn (mitochondrial dysfunction)?

http://www.hhmi.org/news/shulman3.html

Don't agree with all the researcher's speculations. But in my own

lived experience, this makes sense with what I felt: the more insulin

resistant, the more problems in the furnace.

Connie

[Guest guest]

On 9/1/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> > If you aren't going to eat another animal's " stored " calories, then

> > you are going to eat a plant's " stored " calories, so what is the

> > difference?

>

> The difference in my mind is about " storage fat " not " stored

> calories " . Are you familiar with Schwarzbein's metaphor of

> structural versus storage fats? that's where the notion comes from.

Then it makes even less sense to me. The body's demand for structural

fats is primarily saturated!

But I don't see how you can differentiate between storage fats and

storage calories. All storage calories (beyond a small amount for

glycogen) are converted to storage fat, so there's no difference.

Actually, there is: the process of storing fats from carbohydrates

makes the body's ability to burn fat entirely shut off.

> I believe Rosedale's recommendation was to emphasize grass-fed, not

> avoid it. I think he just said avoid excess fat that was made from

> feeding animals corn and soy. I think.

I haven't read it, although Sally asked me to review the two leptin

books for the winter issue of _WT_ so I'll be reading it soon.

I'm only going on hearsay that Rosedale is anti-SF. Although

s' statement that one should avoid saturated fat if one is

trying to burn it is completely illogical.

Actually, it's really bothering me how senseless it is. Through

hormone and other signaling, eating fat-burning foods turns on

fat-burning, period. Eating fat-storing foods turns off fat-burning,

period.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

> Then it makes even less sense to me.

> The body's demand for structural

> fats is primarily saturated!

" structural fats " in that usage also include things like the lipid

layer in the brain needing omega 3s.

> Actually, it's really bothering me how senseless it is. Through

> hormone and other signaling, eating fat-burning foods turns on

> fat-burning, period. Eating fat-storing foods turns off fat-burning,

> period.

I know what you mean. I'm looking forward to your reviews. I could

have misread both s and Rosedale.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Connie,

On 9/1/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> > Then it makes even less sense to me.

> > The body's demand for structural

> > fats is primarily saturated!

>

> " structural fats " in that usage also include things like the lipid

> layer in the brain needing omega 3s.

So what? Even though *some* phospholipids in the membranes include

PUFAs, basically all phospholipids are half-saturated. All

membrane-anchoring fatty acids are saturated. Lung surfactant is

entirely saturated. Etc, etc, etc. The need for structural fats in

humans is more saturated than the most saturated meat fat.

The structural need for pufas is very small, and is fully supplied by

animal fats.

What plant fats do you know of that even contain the long-chain n-3s

that are included in brain membrane? I know of none. That said, all

the pufa plant fats provide FAR more pufa than we need for structural

use.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

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[Guest guest]

> So what?

What's the question? don't know what you're asking here?

Connie

>

> Chris

> --

> Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

> Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Connie,

Apparently there was a technical error in sending my email, so I'm

writing it over again.

On 9/1/05, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> > Then it makes even less sense to me.

> > The body's demand for structural

> > fats is primarily saturated!

>

> " structural fats " in that usage also include things like the lipid

> layer in the brain needing omega 3s.

Basically all phospholipids are half-saturated. All protein-anchoring

fatty acids are saturated. Lung surfactant is entirely saturated,

etc. The proportion of structural fatty acids in humans that are

saturated exceeds the saturation of even the most saturated meat fats.

I do not know of any plant oils that supply the long-chain PUFAs

necessary for the brain-- do you? In any case, our need for these

PUFAs is very small, not even close to our need for saturated fat by

any stretch of the imagination, and animal fats supply these PUFAs.

So I do not see why one would eat plant fats instead of animal fats

for " structural " fats.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

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