Re: Schulze's Liver, Gallbladder & Anti-Parasite formula = agony?

[Guest guest]

On 8/20/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

> Long is a relative term. A long run to one is a quick nothing to

> another. And so it is with fasts, with which I have little experience,

> but I have done half a dozen of 3 day duration or less.

From my (very little) experience, I don't think a 3-day fast really

cuts it. It was about 8 days before I saw a regeneration of my

energy. Also, until I started taking the IF#1, I could judge my

fasting progress by my tongue. The first 3 days were the worst, but

the peak was essentially days 3-5, after which it started to pinken up

very slightly. After around day 7 or 8, which is when I started to

enjoy powerful intellectual insights and went from a slug to speedy

gonzales, my tongue began to pinken at a much higher rate.

So I think that a longer fast is much more worthwhile than a 3-day

fast, which is basically just dipping one's feet in the water.

> did come

> to mind concerning fasts, as it seems to me that he has done his

> required religious fast, a vco fast, this last one and maybe another (I

> may be wrong) all since spring.

The religious fast doesn't count because it coincided with the VCO

fast and this fast both, and isn't really a " fast. " (And I didn't

follow it too well either.)

> I question the wisdom in such an

> undertaking with someone with such a fast metabolism.

I suggest this line of questioning is invalid. Metabolism is not a

fixed attribute. My metabolism clearly slowed down to match my

fasting, such that I felt cool when my mother thought the fan should

be on, even though she is traditionally very sensitive to cold and I

am to heat.

> Why not just

> adopt a healthy lifestyle once and for all.

This seems basically meaningless, and obviously I have tried to do

this and it has not straightened out some of my persisting problems.

> Fasting once or twice a

> year is fine. More than that without terminal illness is questionable

> imho. What would Weston think?

I have no idea. I've never read anything by him on fasting, although

fasting as a treatment was certainly around in his day.

Didn't you encourage me to water fast this last time?

Chris

--

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[Guest guest]

Chris-

> > I question the wisdom in such an

> > undertaking with someone with such a fast metabolism.

>

>I suggest this line of questioning is invalid. Metabolism is not a

>fixed attribute. My metabolism clearly slowed down to match my

>fasting, such that I felt cool when my mother thought the fan should

>be on, even though she is traditionally very sensitive to cold and I

>am to heat.

And you think this is a GOOD thing???

-

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>Who's doing endless fasting?

just did a two-week fast, and has done others recently besides. I'm

also guessing he's planning to do more relatively soon. That qualifies as

" endless " in a slightly hyperbolic, metaphoric sense.

-

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>I guess for me it boils down to dietary dogma. I prefer to have

>evidence back up claims of things like 'cooked food is poison' and 'I

>got a flu, so I must be detoxing.'

Yeah, no kidding. There's a vast amount of dogma out there that has no

better justification than " Aajonus says " or the like.

Not to say meat isn't healthiest very rare. <g>

>Can't you get tested for giardia? Isn't that the best way to proceed?

Unfortunately, not all tests are that reliable, and it does seem that

giardia testing is one of the more dubious ones. Besides, if

cauliflower-tongue is as definitive as says, I'd rather just knock

the bastards out immediately if not sooner rather than wait around

interminably before deciding what to do.

At any rate, the pain in my side has subsided dramatically. I only took

one dose yesterday, but I'm going to try two today and see what happens.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>How long have you had the pain?

Since Thursday, but it's rapidly departing now.

>Have you ever passed gallstones?

Not to my knowledge.

>What is the fat level in your diet like now?

Very high.

I believe this is (was) too widespread and diffuse a pain to be gallstones.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>Neither one of them was involved in a *long* fast.

Long is relative. Most people would consider two weeks a long fast. Maybe

to extreme fasters like you, two weeks is a baby fast and the " real " thing

is more like a month, but that's certainly not the general perception.

-

[Guest guest]

>

>>From my (very little) experience, I don't think a 3-day fast really

>cuts it. It was about 8 days before I saw a regeneration of my

>energy. Also, until I started taking the IF#1, I could judge my

>fasting progress by my tongue. The first 3 days were the worst, but

>the peak was essentially days 3-5, after which it started to pinken up

>very slightly. After around day 7 or 8, which is when I started to

>enjoy powerful intellectual insights and went from a slug to speedy

>gonzales, my tongue began to pinken at a much higher rate.

>

>So I think that a longer fast is much more worthwhile than a 3-day

>fast, which is basically just dipping one's feet in the water.

>

>

I disagree that it is so black and white with respect to fasting length

and think that the individual must be taken into account. A

menstruating woman may get the same benefit from 3 days that someone

else might get from 10. I am sure health status factors in, fitness

level and probably other things as well. And fwiw, I never pooh poohed

fasting. Like anything else, it can be abused. And it may not be for

everyone.

>

>I have no idea. I've never read anything by him on fasting, although

>fasting as a treatment was certainly around in his day.

>

>Didn't you encourage me to water fast this last time?

>

I hadn't read Price on fasting either, which seems rather surprising as

I am sure it was a healing mode in many traditional communities. I

never actually recommended that you water fast, btw, I only asked this

question:

" So, will you do some water fasting then, as you feel inclined? "

I am glad you derived some benefit from your fast. I hope it helped out

in the heart rate and blood pressure departments.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

On 8/21/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> >I suggest this line of questioning is invalid. Metabolism is not a

> >fixed attribute. My metabolism clearly slowed down to match my

> >fasting, such that I felt cool when my mother thought the fan should

> >be on, even though she is traditionally very sensitive to cold and I

> >am to heat.

>

> And you think this is a GOOD thing???

I'm not really sure why you interpret any change of metabolism as

" permanent. " As far as I can tell, my metabolism readjusted when I

began eating again. If it didn't, I'd probably be very fat right now.

Obviously it was a good thing if it was temporary.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

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[Guest guest]

On 8/21/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

> I am glad you derived some benefit from your fast. I hope it helped out

> in the heart rate and blood pressure departments.

Hard to tell, since I only notice these things when they're measured,

but it definitely seemed to help kick the caffeine dependency.

I noticed during the fast that the last time I'd quit and not been

bothered I was on the VCO fast. It's only when I've quit while NOT

fasting that it has been so burdensome.

And now that I'm eating again, I don't seem to need the caffeine. I

AM craving the taste though, and chocolate-- generally bitters, I

guess. But I don't need the caffeine to be productive.

It seems like it had a positive effect on stabilizing my metabolism,

not a negative one.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

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[Guest guest]

Chris-

>I'm not really sure why you interpret any change of metabolism as

> " permanent. " As far as I can tell, my metabolism readjusted when I

>began eating again. If it didn't, I'd probably be very fat right now.

> Obviously it was a good thing if it was temporary.

The more times your metabolism yo-yos, the less elastic it becomes and the

more your body becomes convinced that you're living in lean times and your

set point should be permanently low.

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/21/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> The more times your metabolism yo-yos, the less elastic it becomes and the

> more your body becomes convinced that you're living in lean times and your

> set point should be permanently low.

I understand the logic behind the hypothesis, but I don't understand

where the confirmation is that you seem to be assuming. Additionally,

my experience seems to indicate that it helped my metabolism level

out, which, before the fast, was getting sluggish and

caffeine-dependent, and now seems to have shaken off

caffeine-dependence and readjusted to eating.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

At 08:25 AM 8/20/2005, you wrote:

> A carbon block will get rid of chlorine too. They might make

>individual pitcher-type filters, I don't know. Ours is plumbed in.

>Just something to consider.

>

>http://www.nsf.org/consumer/drinking_water/contaminant_cysts.asp?program=WaterT\

re

>

>Deanna

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>I understand the logic behind the hypothesis, but I don't understand

>where the confirmation is that you seem to be assuming.

I don't know whether anyone's done a comprehensive study of the long-term

effects of fasting and calorie restriction on metabolism, but all available

data support the hypothesis that they eventually permanently depress

metabolism.

> Additionally,

>my experience seems to indicate that it helped my metabolism level

>out, which, before the fast, was getting sluggish and

>caffeine-dependent, and now seems to have shaken off

>caffeine-dependence and readjusted to eating.

Well, see, that's what happens when you quit -- you go through a period of

withdrawal, and then you're over the dependence. Since caffeine to a great

degree exacerbates one's dependence on caffeine, this isn't surprising at

all. But you also have to remember that you're young, and despite your

health problems, your metabolism is still quite elastic. But the more you

damage it, the more you'll suffer down the line.

-

[Guest guest]

Bob-

>I'm trying to think of all the longevity studies done and they seem

>to point to slower metabolism = longer life....

>

>of course this may mean not binging on high calorie foods... but it also

>means that you will live longer as well with more concentrated nutrient

>dense foods instead of eating empty calorie ones...

AFAIK all the mammal CR studies have been done with rat chow and the

equivalent. Wise Traditions ran an article awhile ago ( " Adventures in

Macro-Nutrient Land " , maybe?) which discussed the fact that " life-extended "

mammals actually just seem to be regaining their natural life-span due to

reduced exposure to refined, devitalized foods which, among their other

drawbacks, stimulate way too much insulin production.

I personally wouldn't touch calorie restriction with a ten-foot pole.

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/19/05, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> That's because they are suggesting a gentler treatment that hopefully

> doesn't have that agonizing effect.

>

> I'd expect Schulze's site to give some FAQ on what to expect from

> those potent tinctures. I perused through but got nothin.

Lets face it, the sight sucks. He needed a new web designer yesterday.

There is lots of information there but poorly organized and the site

just screams at you, LOL! I don't know why he doesn't have his

doctor/patient handbook on the site but it could be because of

problems with the powers that be.

> I mean, no

> disrespect meant at all--I'm gonna make some myself--but these are

> serious tinctures for serious business. They are used in emergency

> scenarios--life'n'death stuff/incurables--expect them to have side

> effects. Strong side effects. The $64,000 question is: do you take

> more or less, right? I think the standard reply is to take as much

> discomfort as you are willing, and back off the cleansing antagonist

> to that level of symptoms.

Generally speaking there is not much in the way of " side effects " ,

usually hardly any at all, because most people who take them are

HIGHLY encouraged to follow his entire program. He looks askance at

the idea of " herbal doctoring " in the same way people think of

" medical doctoring " i.e. taking a pill to solve a problem rather than

correcting an entire lifestyle.

The tinctures are potent but unless you are fasting or fighting

systemic candida or have some severe parasite issues there are usually

no " side effects " of course, like everything, there will always be

exceptions. Most his herbs could be classified as foods rather than

medicinals. In fact in his recommendation of top ten herbs to have

around your house in case of emergency, most of them are already in

your kitchen.

Nonetheless his doctor patient handbook and his tapes cover quite a

bit of ground, including any potential reactions from

dieoff/detoxing/herximer/ but those aren't negatives but rather

positives.

[Guest guest]

> Generally speaking there is not much in the way of " side effects " ,

> usually hardly any at all, because most people who take them are

> HIGHLY encouraged to follow his entire program. He looks askance at

> the idea of " herbal doctoring " in the same way people think of

> " medical doctoring " i.e. taking a pill to solve a problem rather than

> correcting an entire lifestyle.

>

> The tinctures are potent but unless you are fasting or fighting

> systemic candida or have some severe parasite issues there are usually

> no " side effects " of course, like everything, there will always be

> exceptions. Most his herbs could be classified as foods rather than

> medicinals. In fact in his recommendation of top ten herbs to have

> around your house in case of emergency, most of them are already in

> your kitchen.

,

I wasn't communicating clearly and I appreciate you bringing it to my

attention. By side effects, I was referring to intensified die-off

symptoms due to the potency of the tinctures, not secondary adverse

reaction to the agent of therapy. I'm thinking if a tincture is potent

enough to bring one back from the brink of death, it could have a

rather, hmm, dynamic effect on the organism. That this particular

organism may have a chronic case of parasites that could be expected

to freak out to poison was implied.

Also, I was too shy to point out--as you did--that Mr. Idol was taking

tinctures as he pleased without following the rest of the protocols

and that carries its own risks. But I like the thought of living

dangerously.

B.

[Guest guest]

On 9/5/05, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> ,

> I wasn't communicating clearly and I appreciate you bringing it to my

> attention.

> By side effects, I was referring to intensified die-off

> symptoms due to the potency of the tinctures, not secondary adverse

> reaction to the agent of therapy. I'm thinking if a tincture is potent

> enough to bring one back from the brink of death, it could have a

> rather, hmm, dynamic effect on the organism. That this particular

> organism may have a chronic case of parasites that could be expected

> to freak out to poison was implied.

I hear ya. Which is why those intestinal formulas are so

important...hehehe...you know the one with the clay and

aloe...<g>...keeps the die off down, or barely even noticeable.

I personally like to think of herbs as spark plugs, you can get get

quite a shock from them even when the rest of the engine is not

operating properly. But they are designed to be used *best* as part of

a total system.

> Also, I was too shy to point out--as you did--that Mr. Idol was taking

> tinctures as he pleased without following the rest of the protocols

> and that carries its own risks. But I like the thought of living

> dangerously.

Well I didn't have Mr. Idol in mind when I mentioned that but I'm glad

I could be of service in stimulating your thought processes about him,

LOL!

I think he and Ron are off working on the emotional side of things at

the moment.