Re: Schulze's Liver, Gallbladder & Anti-Parasite formula = agony?

[Guest guest]

:

>I started taking this on Tuesday (60 drops four times a day) and yesterday

>I developed a really strong pain in my right side that seems definitely

>gut-related. I'm not positive it's the tincture, but it seems increasingly

>likely. My guts have been pretty bad since the mold exposure, so while

>they've gotten worse over the past few days, it's not necessarily dramatic,

>except for the bloating and pain, which are severe.

>

>Any thoughts on whether I should stick with it, scale back or go cold

>turkey? I don't remember anything like this years ago when I tried ia

>-- that actually improved my digestion, and there was no associated pain --

>but I suppose it's not impossible that this is due to some sort of

>dieoff... I don't know what to expect from giardia dieoff, for example.

>

I wouldn't be qualified to instruct you on how to proceed, rather than

to say, go with your gut <weg> or intuition. Parasites are real and

nasty things that should be dealt with properly. BTW, did you read of

the cryptosporidiosis outbreak at that state park in NY? But that said,

I must remark that with some of the anecdotes of mucoid plaquish stuff,

long fasts and the like on this list as of late, I feel like I am

hangin' with the perpetually detoxing raw vegans again. No offense to

anyone either, it is just an observation from experience with these

types of discussions, which sometimes come from folks with eating

disorders, other times from ill folks seeking an end to the madness.

I would say to arm yourself with whatever knowledge you can find and go

with what seems most reasonable - you being a reasonable kind a guy.

How do you know the difference between what is hard die off and what is

causing you to die off? It probably is a tough call to make. I won't

even attempt to give you any words but to wish you all the best in

figuring it out and having a superb and correct outcome to it all.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> Any thoughts on whether I should stick with it, scale back or go cold

> turkey? I don't remember anything like this years ago when I tried

ia

> -- that actually improved my digestion, and there was no associated

pain --

> but I suppose it's not impossible that this is due to some sort of

> dieoff... I don't know what to expect from giardia dieoff, for example.

,

I'm not touching it.

B.

did you ever rtfa?

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>But that said,

>I must remark that with some of the anecdotes of mucoid plaquish stuff,

>long fasts and the like on this list as of late, I feel like I am

>hangin' with the perpetually detoxing raw vegans again.

Yeah, I think 90% of that stuff is absurd. Endless fasting, phantom

impactions, etc. etc. etc.

>I would say to arm yourself with whatever knowledge you can find and go

>with what seems most reasonable - you being a reasonable kind a guy.

>How do you know the difference between what is hard die off and what is

>causing you to die off? It probably is a tough call to make. I won't

>even attempt to give you any words but to wish you all the best in

>figuring it out and having a superb and correct outcome to it all.

Yeah, I really have no idea what's going on. I think I'm just going to go

cold turkey on the tincture. I have some grapefruit seed extract coming,

so I'll see how that works. I also took a lot of pepto today, to no

apparent effect.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>did you ever rtfa?

Yeah, but it gave me no clues of what to expect from die-off.

-

[Guest guest]

> Yeah, but it gave me no clues of what to expect from die-off.

,

That's because they are suggesting a gentler treatment that hopefully

doesn't have that agonizing effect.

I'd expect Schulze's site to give some FAQ on what to expect from

those potent tinctures. I perused through but got nothin. I mean, no

disrespect meant at all--I'm gonna make some myself--but these are

serious tinctures for serious business. They are used in emergency

scenarios--life'n'death stuff/incurables--expect them to have side

effects. Strong side effects. The $64,000 question is: do you take

more or less, right? I think the standard reply is to take as much

discomfort as you are willing, and back off the cleansing antagonist

to that level of symptoms.

Maybe if you lower the dosage/frequency you will get a corresponding

reduction in agony and bingo you'll have a relationship?

or,

how about a nice, hot, coffee enema?

B.

/feels bad you are in pain

[Guest guest]

-

>Maybe if you lower the dosage/frequency you will get a corresponding

>reduction in agony and bingo you'll have a relationship?

Maybe... I'll have to see how things go tomorrow. I'm definitely not

taking today's fourth dose.

>how about a nice, hot, coffee enema?

Wouldn't know how to administer one or what to do, and I don't have any

enema equipment. I'd think a probiotic implant would be advised after

something like that anyway... right?

>/feels bad you are in pain

Sentiments definitely appreciated.

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/19/05, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> how about a nice, hot, coffee enema?

> B.

With cream?

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

> With cream?

try coconut cream in yours.

B.

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>>But that said,

>>I must remark that with some of the anecdotes of mucoid plaquish stuff,

>>long fasts and the like on this list as of late, I feel like I am

>>hangin' with the perpetually detoxing raw vegans again.

>

>Yeah, I think 90% of that stuff is absurd. Endless fasting, phantom

>impactions, etc. etc. etc.

Who's doing endless fasting?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

,

>Yeah, I think 90% of that stuff is absurd. Endless fasting, phantom

>impactions, etc. etc. etc.

>

>

Yes. And perhaps instead of long fasts, I should have said bulimic

fasts. When I wrote, my guys were hounding me to come watch a movie, so

I apologize for being rushed and not conveying my thoughts adequately.

What I meant was that when someone is undergoing several fasts in a

short period of time, that this can be the result of eating disorders.

Furthermore, I think that we can compromise health by overdoing the

length and or frequency of fasts. Even Sally in NT says problems can

result from fasting too long; 'including bone loss, nervous disorders

and reproductive ailments.'

I guess for me it boils down to dietary dogma. I prefer to have

evidence back up claims of things like 'cooked food is poison' and 'I

got a flu, so I must be detoxing.'

>Yeah, I really have no idea what's going on. I think I'm just going to go

>cold turkey on the tincture. I have some grapefruit seed extract coming,

>so I'll see how that works. I also took a lot of pepto today, to no

>apparent effect.

>

Can't you get tested for giardia? Isn't that the best way to proceed?

Medical science is quite good at this sort of thing in general. They

can see things like protozoans and bacteria under the microscope,

regardless of the subsequent treatments decided on. If the treatment

has nasty side effects, heck, even if it doesn't, isn't it better to

know for sure what is going on before spending time, money and agony

hoping it has an positive outcome? I realize no lab results are 100%

accurate, but at least if you tested positive to this common parasite,

then you might feel like the agony is a necessary evil. Did you see

Heidi's contribution to parasitology recently? I did a whole lesson on

parasites with that pdf file as the basis. Thanks Heidi <waves furiously>.

http://www.mgm.ufl.edu/~gulig/mmid/parasitology-davidson-color04.pdf

Be well.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> Can't you get tested for giardia? Isn't that the best way to proceed?

> Medical science is quite good at this sort of thing in general. They

> can see things like protozoans and bacteria under the microscope,

> regardless of the subsequent treatments decided on. If the treatment

> has nasty side effects, heck, even if it doesn't, isn't it better to

> know for sure what is going on before spending time, money and agony

> hoping it has an positive outcome? I realize no lab results are 100%

> accurate, but at least if you tested positive to this common parasite,

> then you might feel like the agony is a necessary evil.

Deanna and everyone,

I'm not saying don't get tested for giardia btw. For me, seeing the

cauliflower-oid stuff is the diagnosis, but nobody else knows for sure

what they're seeing. I'm just pointing out that giardia is crafty and

a single lab test is likely as not to be negative, so one would do

best to take two or three, if they sought that kind of confirmation.

As far as what I said about six weeks, that came out of my armpit--I

got confused with the treatment. I don't know anything about giardia

treatment except what I've read since 's theatre has been going

on. I mean, I know how to identify it on someone's tongue, in front

of me, but that's it. So I'm not trying to play know-it-all #1 over

here or anything.

B.

/backing away

[Guest guest]

> Deanna and everyone,

>I'm not saying don't get tested for giardia btw. For me, seeing the

>cauliflower-oid stuff is the diagnosis, but nobody else knows for sure

>what they're seeing. I'm just pointing out that giardia is crafty and

>a single lab test is likely as not to be negative, so one would do

>best to take two or three, if they sought that kind of confirmation.

>As far as what I said about six weeks, that came out of my armpit--I

>got confused with the treatment. I don't know anything about giardia

>treatment except what I've read since 's theatre has been going

>on. I mean, I know how to identify it on someone's tongue, in front

>of me, but that's it. So I'm not trying to play know-it-all #1 over

>here or anything.

> B.

>/backing away

>

,

Don't back away. Please don't feel I am accusing you of mis or even

diagnosing . Your clues are very helpful, although pictures of the

tongue might be better for someone long distance. And you are right

that labs can miss the boat. I honestly wasn't even thinking about

anything you wrote when I was blabbing to . I was just thinking

that there are conclusive ways to determine parasites, especially since

Mr. Idol is not responding well to this particular treatment for

whatever reason. If he *is* parasite free and his symptoms are coming

from another source, might the treatment exacerbate the issue that is

causing him problems (whatever it is)? These questions remain. And I

know next to nothing about these little stinking pathogens. I am just

rambling on, as usual.

, if giardia is indeed the culprit, you may want to spring for a

filtering system that removes them from water, which is where they come

from often, as you may know. Carbon blocks with NSF 53 or 58 will

eliminate crytosporidium and giardia from water. Since you have city

water, this is potentially an ongoing problem for you. It would suck

for you to get reinfected after all this. I did a major research

project on this a few years back, and many municipal water supplies have

these problems ongoing. That's why they chlorinate the hell out of the

water. A carbon block will get rid of chlorine too. They might make

individual pitcher-type filters, I don't know. Ours is plumbed in.

Just something to consider.

http://www.nsf.org/consumer/drinking_water/contaminant_cysts.asp?program=WaterTr\

e

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>, if giardia is indeed the culprit, you may want to spring for a

>filtering system that removes them from water, which is where they come

>from often, as you may know. Carbon blocks with NSF 53 or 58 will

>eliminate crytosporidium and giardia from water. Since you have city

>water, this is potentially an ongoing problem for you. It would suck

>for you to get reinfected after all this. I did a major research

>project on this a few years back, and many municipal water supplies have

>these problems ongoing. That's why they chlorinate the hell out of the

>water. A carbon block will get rid of chlorine too. They might make

>individual pitcher-type filters, I don't know. Ours is plumbed in.

>Just something to consider.

I have a water filter, actually, and it even feeds my ice maker, so I never

consume unfiltered water, but I do occasionally eat out, and that always

involves drinking water, so I can't exactly crawl into a hermetically

sealed bubble. Assuming my hypochlorhydria problem isn't going to go away

(I hope it will, but frankly it looks like the damage is permanent) then

I'll always have to worry about things like this.

-

[Guest guest]

> I have a water filter, actually, and it even feeds my ice maker, so

> I never consume unfiltered water, but I do occasionally eat out, and

> that always involves drinking water,

> -

, You've checked your filter? That's one of the things I was

suspicious of when I got my infection... Those filters, as you know,

can be responsible for some bad things too... I really got spooked

after the last thing and am religious about keeping my filter clean

now. It's expensive though..

~Robin Ann

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>, You've checked your filter? That's one of the things I was

>suspicious of when I got my infection... Those filters, as you know,

>can be responsible for some bad things too... I really got spooked

>after the last thing and am religious about keeping my filter clean

>now. It's expensive though..

I'm not sure how I'd detect a giardia (or whatever) problem in my filter,

but it's a multi-stage affair: a doulton candle ceramic particulate

pre-filter, a granulated activated carbon filter(I know, block is better),

a KDF filter, and a fluoride-removal filter.

-

[Guest guest]

,

How long have you had the pain?

Have you ever passed gallstones?

What is the fat level in your diet like now?

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> I started taking this on Tuesday (60 drops four times a day) and

yesterday

> I developed a really strong pain in my right side that seems

definitely

> gut-related. I'm not positive it's the tincture, but it seems

increasingly

> likely. My guts have been pretty bad since the mold exposure, so

while

> they've gotten worse over the past few days, it's not necessarily

dramatic,

> except for the bloating and pain, which are severe.

>

> Any thoughts on whether I should stick with it, scale back or go

cold

> turkey? I don't remember anything like this years ago when I tried

ia

> -- that actually improved my digestion, and there was no associated

pain --

> but I suppose it's not impossible that this is due to some sort of

> dieoff... I don't know what to expect from giardia dieoff, for

example.

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> Robin-

>

> >, You've checked your filter? That's one of the things I was

> >suspicious of when I got my infection... Those filters, as you know,

> >can be responsible for some bad things too... I really got spooked

> >after the last thing and am religious about keeping my filter clean

> >now. It's expensive though..

>

> I'm not sure how I'd detect a giardia (or whatever) problem in my

filter,

> but it's a multi-stage affair: a doulton candle ceramic particulate

> pre-filter, a granulated activated carbon filter(I know, block is

better),

> a KDF filter, and a fluoride-removal filter.

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

> I'm not sure how I'd detect a giardia (or whatever) problem in my

> filter,

> but it's a multi-stage affair: a doulton candle ceramic

particulate

> pre-filter, a granulated activated carbon filter(I know, block is

> better),

> a KDF filter, and a fluoride-removal filter.

> -

Water filters do house microorganisms and that's why you have to

change them pretty frequently. Obviously. I was getting lazy with

mine and when I finally changed it a little lightbulb went off in my

head -- maybe this is the cause! You can call a chemist and have the

filter and/or water analyzed but I've never done that. My plumber is

standing right behind me (I'm not kidding!) and he says you might

have might have shit in your piping. But he also said to not use the

word shit because you might think that's what he really means but,

of course, he means bacteria or other organisms especially if you

have poly-pipe somewhere -- how about the line from your water

source to the filter? Maybe change that?

Anyway, I just keep my unit and the filters absolutely pristine. I

figured what's done is done and I'll just pick up the pieces. I

still don't know if that was the cause of my bacterial problem but I

want to be on the safe side now.

~Robin Ann

[Guest guest]

,

>

>I have a water filter, actually, and it even feeds my ice maker, so I never

>consume unfiltered water, but I do occasionally eat out, and that always

>involves drinking water, so I can't exactly crawl into a hermetically

>sealed bubble. Assuming my hypochlorhydria problem isn't going to go away

>(I hope it will, but frankly it looks like the damage is permanent) then

>I'll always have to worry about things like this.

>

I dunno. With the mold fiasco and now this, maybe you do need to be

hermetically sealed in a bubble <g>. Are you sure your multi-stage

filter covers cysts (giardia et. al)? You might want to be sure that

one of them filters catches that. If it doesn't say so on the manual,

it probably doesn't. All I have is carbon block under sink and then the

whole house carbon paper - only the block gets cysts. I am not familiar

with the granulated activated carbon. You could always boil your water

(yeah right), and when out drink hot beverages (as I know you are too

sensitive to drink alcohol).

Deanna

[Guest guest]

I don't know what to expect from giardia dieoff, for example.

,

from all accounts I've searched, giardia die off would present as

exacerbated symptoms.

B.

[Guest guest]

On 8/20/05, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

>

>

> > Can't you get tested for giardia? Isn't that the best way to proceed?

> > Medical science is quite good at this sort of thing in general. They

> > can see things like protozoans and bacteria under the microscope,

> > regardless of the subsequent treatments decided on. If the treatment

> > has nasty side effects, heck, even if it doesn't, isn't it better to

> > know for sure what is going on before spending time, money and agony

> > hoping it has an positive outcome? I realize no lab results are 100%

> > accurate, but at least if you tested positive to this common parasite,

> > then you might feel like the agony is a necessary evil.

>

> Deanna and everyone,

> I'm not saying don't get tested for giardia btw. For me, seeing the

> cauliflower-oid stuff is the diagnosis, but nobody else knows for sure

> what they're seeing.

What is the " cauliflower-oid stuff " ?

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

> What is the " cauliflower-oid stuff " ?

Looks like wee cauliflower-ettes on the back of the tongue. Nothing

else looks like it. There may be little rings of " shaved " papullae

here-and-there as well. Looks like teensy little ringworm on the tongue.

B.

[Guest guest]

On 8/19/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> I started taking this on Tuesday (60 drops four times a day) and yesterday

> I developed a really strong pain in my right side that seems definitely

> gut-related. I'm not positive it's the tincture, but it seems increasingly

> likely. My guts have been pretty bad since the mold exposure, so while

> they've gotten worse over the past few days, it's not necessarily dramatic,

> except for the bloating and pain, which are severe.

>

> Any thoughts on whether I should stick with it, scale back or go cold

> turkey? I don't remember anything like this years ago when I tried ia

> -- that actually improved my digestion, and there was no associated pain --

> but I suppose it's not impossible that this is due to some sort of

> dieoff... I don't know what to expect from giardia dieoff, for example.

Back off on the dosage if it seems the response is too aggressive.

[Guest guest]

On 8/19/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

> >Any thoughts on whether I should stick with it, scale back or go cold

> >turkey? I don't remember anything like this years ago when I tried ia

> >-- that actually improved my digestion, and there was no associated pain --

> >but I suppose it's not impossible that this is due to some sort of

> >dieoff... I don't know what to expect from giardia dieoff, for example.

> >

> I wouldn't be qualified to instruct you on how to proceed, rather than

> to say, go with your gut <weg> or intuition. Parasites are real and

> nasty things that should be dealt with properly. BTW, did you read of

> the cryptosporidiosis outbreak at that state park in NY? But that said,

> I must remark that with some of the anecdotes of mucoid plaquish stuff,

> long fasts and the like on this list as of late, I feel like I am

> hangin' with the perpetually detoxing raw vegans again. No offense to

> anyone either, it is just an observation from experience with these

> types of discussions, which sometimes come from folks with eating

> disorders, other times from ill folks seeking an end to the madness.

Don't be so coy. There are only two people at this moment who are/were

sharing their recent fasting experience on this list - and Suze.

Neither one of them was involved in a *long* fast. Nor do I recall

either one being " perpetually detoxing " WAPer's. And if either one of

them, given their approaches to health and fitness, makes you think

you are hanging with a bunch of vegans, then you are clearly

misreading *this* list.

The others who have attempted to help them in their questions,

and myself for sure, and maybe Robin, are as about carnivorous as they

come (not sure about Robin).

You might think fasting is a bunch of hooey, and it appears to me you

have very little experience with it, but your analogy is nonsense. I'm

not about to cede to vegans something that has a long and honorable

tradition/history behind it.

[Guest guest]

,

>

>Don't be so coy. There are only two people at this moment who are/were

>sharing their recent fasting experience on this list - and Suze.

>Neither one of them was involved in a *long* fast.

>

Long is a relative term. A long run to one is a quick nothing to

another. And so it is with fasts, with which I have little experience,

but I have done half a dozen of 3 day duration or less. did come

to mind concerning fasts, as it seems to me that he has done his

required religious fast, a vco fast, this last one and maybe another (I

may be wrong) all since spring. I question the wisdom in such an

undertaking with someone with such a fast metabolism. Why not just

adopt a healthy lifestyle once and for all. Fasting once or twice a

year is fine. More than that without terminal illness is questionable

imho. What would Weston think?

Your other remarks have been addressed in subsequent posts.

Deanna