Re: High fat diets and bone density in athletes

[Guest guest]

Sorry, not me, Deanna... I've never had it checked pre- or post-high fat/low

carbing.

Christie

[Guest guest]

>Sorry, not me, Deanna... I've never had it checked pre- or post-high fat/low

>carbing.

>

>Christie

>

Christie,

Don't think I wasn't thinking of you, lol. But it is really ironic that

this group of endurance cyclists (non weight bearing exercisers) go high

fat for 3 months and get 2/100 percent more skeletal mass than before.

Bear in mind, that the average Jane loses one percent bone mass per year

starting at age 40. So the increase really is substantial in this

situation, but is dependent on age just how significant. All the while,

the ones who misname the " high protein " (which is really high fat) diet

as one that will just suck the calcium out of your bones, seem to be

wrong in this case.

And that's another thing that irks me to no end. Why the hell do these

high carb, fat fearing folks call themselves the " low fat " diet

followers? In terms of percentage of calories, they generally are the

low protein group. But heck, why describe your diet as that which is

limited ( this may include low carb)? I eat mostly fat, therefore I am

a high fat eater, dieter, consumer, whatever. I may only consume 45-60%

fat on average, which I think is less than you, but still it is the

major macronutrient component in my diet. So I suppose if one is to

speak of the lowest macronutrient component in their diet, then low carb

is definitely more accurate for those who really follow it than the low

fat claims.

Anyhoo, I am feelin' really groovy on like about 30% carbs and an

average of 25 miles a week running. So I am more than ever questioning

this carb loading bla bla for endurance athletes.

So think about that bone density testing, eh? And I will too.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>> the ones who misname the " high protein " (which is really high fat) diet

>> as one that will just suck the calcium out of your bones, seem to be

>> wrong in this case.

>

>I did a quick search and cannot find any studies supporting high fat

>diets increasing bone mass. I really want to find evidence supporting

>this but everything I see supports the opposite.

>I didn't get to read all the articles so forgive me if I missed the

>goods ones. I wonder if it has something to do with the type of fat

>they are feeding the rats. Are they giving them hydrogenated fats?

>

>Sandy

I haven't read about high-fat diets causing increase in

bone mass, but have read about high-protein diets causing

increase in bone mass, in old ladies no less, when combined

with adequate calcium intake. High-protein does tend to

go with high-fat ... it's hard to find good protein sources

that *don't* come packaged with fat. I mean, you can

eat nothing but dry chicken breast but there is still 5 grams

of fat per 4 oz.

I have found that if I eat a good steak, for example,

without my cal/mag/D supplements, I get tetany, so

I think the body DOES need cal/mag to process the

protein (and will pull it from the bones if necessary).

Anyway, the mice that were on the high-fat diet and got decreased

bone density were on an " atherogenic " diet ... which is one

of those real controversies. Corn oil is considered non-atherogenic,

but it causes atherosclerosis regularly in mice, and trans

fats are the worst of all. In one study I read, they were using

corn oil to induce atherosclerosis: I don't know what they

were using in the study you mention.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\

1149483 & dopt=Citation

We previously found that atherogenic oxidized lipids inhibit osteoblastic

differentiation in vitro and ex vivo, suggesting that an atherogenic diet may

contribute to both diseases

But you have to think that what the mice are getting

is mostly trans fat ... it is packaged MOUSE CHOW which just

doesn't keep well unless the fat is hydrogenated (you gotta

figure they aren't going to use expensive beef tallow: they

use vegie oils in chow). So my guess is that when they say

" saturated fat " it's mainly hydrogenated? (even lard

these days is hydrogenated).

http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/full/273/46/30427

After weaning, pups were fed a chow diet (1:1 mixture of PicoLab rodent chow 20

and mouse chow 20 with a total fat content of 6.75%) until the age of 8-10

weeks. At that time, mice were either maintained on the chow diet or started on

a high fat diet. A high fat, high carbohydrate diet without cholesterol

(referred to as " high fat " ) providing 58% calories as fat was purchased from

BioServ (Frenchtown, NJ, product F1850). A high fat diet containing 0.15%

cholesterol (referred to as " Western " ) providing 42% calories as fat was

purchased from Harlan Teklad (Madison, WI, product TD 88137). Most experiments

used the high fat and Western diets. One type of experiment also used a common

but more harsh dietary intervention in an attempt to elicit Cbfa1 expression

(see Fig. <http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/full/273/46/30427#F4>4A). For this

experiment, a high fat diet containing 1.25% cholesterol and 0.5% cholate

(referred to as " Chol. + Fat " ) was purchased from Harlan Teklad (product TD

95046).

Also they don't get into the REST of the diet the poor

mice are getting, which is generally corn and wheat.

They glycemic impact of the diet has a LOT to do

with heart disease (and gum disease!). I wonder

how the mice would do if fed their native diet,

which has a lot of fatty insects, fruits, roots,

seeds, and a little bit of grain.

It is interesting though that there seems to be a link between

atherosclerosis and osteoporosis: add to that Wanita's link

for gum disease and diabetes (and diabetes is ALSO highly

linked to atherosclerosis) and it gets really interesting ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>I did a quick search and cannot find any studies supporting high fat

>diets increasing bone mass. I really want to find evidence supporting

>this but everything I see supports the opposite.

>I didn't get to read all the articles so forgive me if I missed the

>goods ones. I wonder if it has something to do with the type of fat

>they are feeding the rats. Are they giving them hydrogenated fats?

>

>Sandy

>

Hi Sandy,

I don't know about the rat studies. Since I am interested in athletics,

I am looking at human studies.

Try searching for science at:

http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/

It is my personal belief that exercise is the most important factor to

bone density throughout one's life. Recently a long term study showed

that adolescent girls got bigger bones through exercise, not calcium -

the old use it or lose it (or not build it in the first place in the

case of youth).

http://www.dental.am/stuff.php?id=678_0_1_0_M

This is the one I saw originally which mentioned in passing that high

fat diet raised bone density :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids==10731014

-----------------------------------------------------

High-carbohydrate versus high-fat diets: effect on body composition in

trained cyclists.

Brown RC, CM, Goulding A.

Department of Human Nutrition, University of Otago, Dunedin, New

Zealand. rachel.brown@...

PURPOSE: Recent research suggesting the benefits of high-fat diets for

endurance athletes have been viewed with caution because of the

potential negative health consequences, including increased adiposity.

METHODS: We have examined the effects of a high-fat (HF, 50% of total

energy from fat and 37% from carbohydrate) versus a high-carbohydrate

(HC, 15% of total energy from fat and 69% from carbohydrate) diet on

body fat, lean body mass, and bone mineral density (BMD) in 32

endurance-trained cyclists over a period of 3 months. Body composition

was assessed by dual x-ray absorptiometry at baseline and after 3

months. RESULTS: Total and percent body fat, lean tissue mass, and body

weight were not significantly different within and between each diet

group from baseline to week 12. Total body BMD increased significantly

within HF (P = 0.02), but nonsignificantly in HC, over the 12-wk period.

CONCLUSIONS: In conclusion, during periods of endurance training when

energy requirements are high, increasing the percentage of fat in the

diet to approximately 50% of total energy does not increase body weight

or adiposity because athletes are able to maintain energy balance.

PMID: 10731014 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------

Here's a snippet from Atkins site but they looked at protein, not fat:

http://atkins.com/Archive/2003/8/8-646110.html

--------------------------------------------

EXPOSING THE BONE DETRIMENT MYTH: RECENT RESEARCH SHOWS THE BENEFITS OF

CONTROLLED CARBOHYDRATE NUTRITION FOR BONE HEALTH

Two recent studies, both published in the Journal of Nutrition, examined

the effect of protein intake on bone health. In the first study,

conducted by Grand Forks Human Nutrition Research Center, U.S.

Department of Agriculture, a series of short-term nutrition intervention

trials were performed. Healthy adults consumed either a low, medium or

high level of dietary protein. The researchers found the low-protein

diet induced changes in hormonal signals of bone metabolism, which may

negatively impact bone health. These hormonal changes (increase in

parathyroid hormone) did not occur on either the moderate or

high-protein diet.

These findings were consistent with recent population studies

demonstrating that individuals who consumed low-protein diets had

reduced bone density. The researchers also noted that there were no

definitive nutrition intervention studies that show a detrimental effect

of a high-protein diet on the skeleton.

In the second study, conducted by the University of Connecticut, 15

healthy postmenopausal women consumed diets with similar calcium content

(approximately 600 mg), but the diets were either low or high in meat

(12 percent vs. 20 percent of energy as protein), for eight weeks.

Although there was an initial spike in urinary calcium excretion, which

is typically seen when protein intake increases, the levels quickly

returned to normal. Urine and blood tests showed there was no difference

in calcium retention during the high or low-meat period over time, and

the diets did not affect urinary calcium loss or indicators of bone

metabolism. The researchers concluded that a high-meat diet, when

compared with a low-meat diet for eight weeks, did not affect calcium

retention or biomarkers of bone metabolism in healthy postmenopausal women.

Reference: Roughead, Z. K., , L. K., Lykken, G. I., et al.,

Controlled high meat diets do not affect calcium retention or indices of

bone status in healthy postmenopausal women, The Journal of Nutrition,

133(4), 2003, pages 1020-1026.

Reference: Kerstetter, J.E., O'Brien, K.O., Insogna, K.L., Low protein

intake: the impact on calcium and bone homeostasis in humans, The

Journal of Nutrition, 133(3), 2003, pages 855S-861S.

---------------------------------------

Deanna

[Guest guest]

I'm wondering if the category of athletes is all that important a variable.

I would think even a person with minimal exercise might show increased bone

density on a diet high in fats -- and the protein which likely comes with

those fats. This is, after all, the diet of wild cats who are very muscular

in spite of sleeping away most of their lives.

Before embarking on just this kind of diet I was tested as showing the

beginnings of osteoporosis (a " foot bath " test, though, and that is not as

accurate as the full body scan). I haven't been back for another test

because I'm convinced my bones are doing well -- in spite of minimal

exercise -- partly because of my teeth which I mentioned in previous posts,

but also because of the new strength and health of my fingernails. Apart

from Tai Chi three times a week, I'm pretty sedentary.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

,

>I'm wondering if the category of athletes is all that important a variable.

>I would think even a person with minimal exercise might show increased bone

>density on a diet high in fats -- and the protein which likely comes with

>those fats. This is, after all, the diet of wild cats who are very muscular

>in spite of sleeping away most of their lives.

>

>

And they are not only muscular, but swift, agile and strong.

>Before embarking on just this kind of diet I was tested as showing the

>beginnings of osteoporosis (a " foot bath " test, though, and that is not as

>accurate as the full body scan). I haven't been back for another test

>because I'm convinced my bones are doing well -- in spite of minimal

>exercise -- partly because of my teeth which I mentioned in previous posts,

>but also because of the new strength and health of my fingernails. Apart

>from Tai Chi three times a week, I'm pretty sedentary.

>

>

>http://www.taichi4seniors.com

>

IIRC, you are eating a raw diet too, aren't you? Perhaps this is

helping the remineralization of your skeleton. Would you mind giving us

a description of your eating in a typical day? If you have already done

this, let me know and I will search for it. It's really hot here in

North Texas, and I have been inclined to up the amount of raw foods in

my diet, at least seasonally. Today I am making the raw tuna salad from

NT and a cooked eggplant dish with cheese and ginger from Sahni's

book. I got a great deal on a box of eggplants, but I have never

enjoyed them raw. I would really appreciate knowing what a typical day

on a raw omnivorous diet looks like. I never could handle raw vegan

diets, but raw paleo with a bit of dairy and some cooked beans, broth

and veg would be very doable for me.

TIA,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Hi, Deanna,

I was given a " personalized " diet for myself which I still try to follow in

a general way, but it turned out to be too varied, and too much, in

quantities, for me to do exactly as prescribed. I don't like to shop or be

in the kitchen much. So basically, what I do is very simple, and, for

certain periods of time, very much the same. I make sure I have close to a

pound of meat a day -- about 5 oz per meal, usually red organ meats for the

first two meals (I don't much like the texture of muscle meat), with some

extra animal fat added, and chicken or fish for the last one. Though I've

just ordered some cheese and might for the summer months make dinner one of

cheese and a little fruit, plus the 3 egg yolks that I always have.

Everythiing is raw, but I do make simple " sauces " for the meat dishes,

usually dairy (butter or sour cream), ginger, honey and coconut oil. I

juice veggies each morning, about a quart for the day, though for a couple

of years I was doing 2 quarts. I don't drink anything else, not even water.

Basically that's it. I was told a once-a-week salad would be okay, but I no

longer have any desire for one. Although I used to live on salads, I find I

can't really digest raw veggies now--and I never did like them cooked.

It's not really an " ominvorous diet " because there are no grains or legumes

in it, and only rarely fruit. Mostly, I take lessons from my cat. I know

I'm not a carnivore, but pretending to be quite a bit like one has done

wonders for me. <g>

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

, thank you for this.

>Hi, Deanna,

>

>I was given a " personalized " diet for myself which I still try to follow in

>a general way, but it turned out to be too varied, and too much, in

>quantities, for me to do exactly as prescribed. I don't like to shop or be

>in the kitchen much. So basically, what I do is very simple, and, for

>certain periods of time, very much the same. I make sure I have close to a

>pound of meat a day -- about 5 oz per meal, usually red organ meats for the

>first two meals (I don't much like the texture of muscle meat), with some

>extra animal fat added, and chicken or fish for the last one. Though I've

>just ordered some cheese and might for the summer months make dinner one of

>cheese and a little fruit, plus the 3 egg yolks that I always have.

>Everythiing is raw, but I do make simple " sauces " for the meat dishes,

>usually dairy (butter or sour cream), ginger, honey and coconut oil. I

>juice veggies each morning, about a quart for the day, though for a couple

>of years I was doing 2 quarts. I don't drink anything else, not even water.

>Basically that's it. I was told a once-a-week salad would be okay, but I no

>longer have any desire for one. Although I used to live on salads, I find I

>can't really digest raw veggies now--and I never did like them cooked.

>

>

Well, NT makes a deal and I think others her on NN have too about raw

liver (in particular) being hard to swallow. Obviously you have found

what works for you, and that is good. I am one who always enjoyed organ

meats cooked. SO I am intrigued that you enjoy the organ foods raw. Do

you ever marinate the meats, be it muscle or organ? Sour cream makes

everything taste better as far as I'm concerned, lol.

One thing I have always noticed is this: raw fish makes me peppy like

caffeine or sugar, only in a perpetual sort of way. I say this as I ate

the raw tuna salad tonight with some cava, hee hee hee. I must say that

the acid marinade made the fish more cooked like texturally than I

prefer, but it was sushi grade tuna done a different way, so it was a

nice change of taste in that regard. Sashimi, wasabi and seaweed combo

is still superior to me, but the feeling I get must be something else.

It is like this clean energy feeling that has always brought me back to

raw fish. Hmmm.

>It's not really an " ominvorous diet " because there are no grains or legumes

>in it, and only rarely fruit. Mostly, I take lessons from my cat. I know

>I'm not a carnivore, but pretending to be quite a bit like one has done

>wonders for me. <g>

>

>

>http://www.taichi4seniors.com

>

Yeah, I have six cats and they really like the raw meat when I bring it

out. And another thing, they remain quite flexible after climbing trees

and pouncing on each other, even without hours of yoga!

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna,

<Well, NT makes a deal and I think others her on NN have too about raw

liver (in particular) being hard to swallow. Obviously you have found

what works for you, and that is good. I am one who always enjoyed organ

meats cooked. SO I am intrigued that you enjoy the organ foods raw. Do

you ever marinate the meats, be it muscle or organ? Sour cream makes

everything taste better as far as I'm concerned, lol.

Well, I had my doubts about liver before starting, but it has actually

turned out to be my favorite dish (esp. since I discovered grass-fed lamb

liver). Having said that, I don't think I could face a cold slab of liver

on my plate. What I do is to cut the liver into very tiny pieces (with

kitchen shears) and then add in the sweet/spicey sauce I mentioned before.

This might sound like an odd combination, but when you think about the usual

bacon and onions that are served with liver, both of those are somewhat

sweet and spicey. Anyway, I love it and only wish it were okay to eat liver

more often than I do.

The only thing I marinate is the chicken (again, cut up into pieces) usually

with lime juice as the basic ingredient. A cerviche-type marinade works

nicely.

And yes, sour cream works with everything. <g>

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

,

>What I do is to cut the liver into very tiny pieces (with

>kitchen shears) and then add in the sweet/spicey sauce I mentioned before.

>This might sound like an odd combination, but when you think about the usual

>bacon and onions that are served with liver, both of those are somewhat

>sweet and spicey. Anyway, I love it and only wish it were okay to eat liver

>more often than I do.

>

I'll try this with some beef or chicken liver this week (it's all I

have). I think I'll wimp out and marinate the cut up bits first in

kimchi juice (which is spicy) and add sauce on it as well.

Oh, and I have just found a study of runners and performance on high fat

diets. I'm really excited to see that the slow twitch muscle people (I

mean people with higher percentage of slow twitch to fast) did really

well on diets from 32-55% fat as far as their performance goes. The

more I have been thinking about this whole carbo loading nonsense, the

less sense it makes to me, even as the running community continues to

advocate it along with a very low fat diet. So I'm going to keep a food

journal as well as a training one as I prepare for my first half

marathon race this autumn eating high fat (by that I mean highest

percentage of daily calories from coming from fat). We shall see.

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/3/345 (snippet removed the V,

should be Vo2 max not just o2)

" Exercise training is generally associated with an increase in maximal

aerobic power and endurance [3]. It is also generally agreed that the

maximal potential for aerobic power and endurance is set genetically

[3]. Any examination of the effects of dietary fat intake has to be

considered in light of potential training effects. In studies of 25 male

and female middle-aged endurance runners, with a long history of

running, o2max did not significantly improve while running 40 to 50

miles per week for six months [44]. This same group of runners, when put

on a high-fat diet, had a 3% to 8% increase in o2max (not significant)

without a significant change in the peak heart rate observed in the max

o2 test [47]. In a study on young elite endurance runners, a high-fat

diet compared with a low-fat diet significantly increased o2max 8% to

12%, without a significant increase in the peak heart rate during the

o2max test [35]. It should be noted that the diets in these two studies

[35,43] were not randomized and cardiac output was not measured, so

further work in this area is needed. Future work may also focus on the

role of body fat distribution and the percentage of slow twitch

oxidative muscle fibers in determining fat oxidation and endurance

performance.

" Muscle fiber composition is important, as the potential for increased

fat oxidation applies to slow twitch oxidative fiber metabolism. Thus,

the higher the percentage of these fibers, the greater the potential

benefits from the high-fat diet. It has recently been shown that

experienced male runners (n=6, age=35±5 years), training 35 to 65 miles

per week, consuming high dietary fat for one month (42%) had

significantly increased in the volume density of total lipid in the

muscle, without significant changes in the volume density of total

mitochondria or total body weight and percent body fat [48]. Many

athletes consume low calorie and low fat diets as a mechanism to reduce

both fat intake and body weight [23,28]. Low caloric and/or fat intake

diets may result in low levels of intramuscular fat stores that

compromise performance. "

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna,

<I'll try this with some beef or chicken liver this week (it's all I have).

I think I'll wimp out and marinate the cut up bits first in kimchi juice

(which is spicy) and add sauce on it as well.>

Sounds interesting. <g> I hope it works for you. You sound like an old NN

pro, so I probably don't have to worry about this--but just in case, I want

to remind you that liver should come from a grass fed or at the least an

organic fed animal with no antibiotics, growth hormones, etc.

Good luck! Let us know how you do with the diet, and then in the race.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

>Sounds interesting. <g> I hope it works for you. You sound like an old NN

>pro, so I probably don't have to worry about this--but just in case, I want

>to remind you that liver should come from a grass fed or at the least an

>organic fed animal with no antibiotics, growth hormones, etc.

>

,

Good advice! I get all of my meat from a farm that produces only

pastured, certified organic stuff. In fact, Mr. Rancher will only

supplement alfalfa to cows, never any grains, as apparently that changes

the fat constituents and just about wipes out all of the CLA (somethin'

like that). Come September, I pick up my next 50 lb. organ assortment,

so I'll request some lamb livers then. I don't think I have ever had

it, but I love lamb.

Thanks,

Deanna