Re: I'm officially casein- and gluten-intolerant

[Guest guest]

[suze] Well, you can add me to the list of folks with confirmed casein- and

gluten-intolerance. I took the Enterolab test recently and tested positive

for both. However, I should qualify the casein intolerance - it's to cow's

milk specifically. I don't know about other species' milk. They don't test

for that!

[MikeP] Congratulations Suze!!! Now your health will become golden as

you live an exalted and enlightened life of good human food! (Er,

well, I wouldn't give up on the sheep kefir too quick either to be

honest!!!)

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

I took that test, too, and it came back positive for both gluten and

casein intolerance. I'm in complete denial about the casein

intolerance and have been scarfing down the cream, cream, cream!

A few questions, though, that maybe you can answer, Suze, or perhaps

someone else who knows. Isn't it true that cream has very little

casein? And butter? And how do we know whether the casein intolerance

they are testing for is a reaction to pasteurized casein (as you see

I'm trying to justify my dairy intake!)

Also, would you mind sharing what your gluten intolerance number was?

Just curious about how it compares to mine since you mentioned that

you think it has only been in the last few years that you developed

the intolerance.

thanks,

lisa

> Well, you can add me to the list of folks with confirmed casein- and

> gluten-intolerance. I took the Enterolab test recently and tested

positive

> for both. However, I should qualify the casein intolerance - it's to

cow's

> milk specifically. I don't know about other species' milk. They

don't test

> for that!

>

> Both tests were for IgA reactions. And I have two copies of the most

common

> gene that predisposes one to gluten intolerance. My body is attacking

> itself, as an IgA reaction to gluten eventually leads to one's own

> antibodies attacking the body itself. According to the person I

spoke with

> at Enterolabs yesterday, my level of fecal antitissue transglutaminase

> (antibody that attacks my connective tissue, I think) suggests I haven't

> been gluten sensitive for very long - maybe a few years. I've been

thinking

> all along that it started from 1-3 years ago due to symptoms. You

can have

> the gluten intolerance genes without actually being gluten intolerant

> though. However, Enterolab is finding that about 75% with the genes have

> active gluten sensitivity. No one knows exactly how the gene gets

turned on.

> In my case, I think it had to do with candida overgrowth. I'm not sure

> exactly how though. But recent research has found that candida albicans

> contains a protein that is an exact replica of one of the gluten

proteins.

>

> What I will miss the most is my favorite microbrews, Sally's raw ice

cream

> recipe, cream, cream, cream(!) and French Morbier.

>

> In the meantime, I will experiment with sheep's milk kefir and

yogurt to see

> if it makes me bloat like cow's milk does.

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. "

--

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

[Guest guest]

> Re: I'm officially casein- and gluten-intolerant

>

>

>[suze] Well, you can add me to the list of folks with confirmed casein- and

>gluten-intolerance. I took the Enterolab test recently and tested positive

>for both. However, I should qualify the casein intolerance - it's to cow's

>milk specifically. I don't know about other species' milk. They don't test

>for that!

>

>[MikeP] Congratulations Suze!!! Now your health will become golden as

>you live an exalted and enlightened life of good human food!

LOL! Thanks Mike, this made me laugh. But really, I hardly consume much

gluten other than what's in beer, and that's fermented, so I'm not sure how

much is actually in there. Other than that, I just don't do gluten much.

However, I do LOVE raw cream and especially raw ice cream which I think is

pretty healthy.

(Er,

>well, I wouldn't give up on the sheep kefir too quick either to be

>honest!!!)

Right! I'll give it a month or two and see if I have any symptoms.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 6/28/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> Nonetheless, as I understand it, the reaction is to a particular

> amino-acid sequence in casein which should not be affected by

> pasteurization.

The amino acid sequence wouldn't be, but the digestibility very well

could be, and an immune reaction could only take place if the amino

acid sequence is *undigested*.

> At least that's the conventional wisdom and may be true.

You mean it's the conventional wisdom that pasteurization doesn't

change amino acid sequence, or it's the primary wisdom that it follows

from that that pasteurization wouldn't be a factor in immune reaction?

> I do know that casein is a very flexible protein and alters shape depending

> on

> pH but I don't think it alters it's amino acid sequence.

All proteins change shape according to pH, but how is that related to

pasteurization?

I would guess that the pastuerization causes sulfer atoms on

neighboring amino acid strands within the casein protein to form

disulfide bridges, which could affect the ability of enzymes to gain

access to certain portions that are supposed to be hydrolized, and in

that way liken the chance that an undigested problematic strand would

be available for an immune reaction further down along the way.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I know, it does suck! I'm sorry you had the same news!

Oh geez, but now you've just given me too much info and I am thinking

I need to stop dairy. I just don't know how I will deal w/ it!

Yes, I mostly consumed raw dairy before the test so I guess those

numbers indicate I have a problem w/ that. I just don't have any

symptoms so it's hard to stop!

Also, I mentioned this test to Dr. Ron Schmid who I consulted w/ a few

times last year, and he essentially disregarded it (so i happily did

too!) I also work w/ practitioners who do a form of muscle testing and

raw dairy always tests well for me. Hmmm....

Uggh, but I am nursing twins and am worried that they are not getting

what they need through my breastmilk because I'm eating so much dairy.

At this point, this is the only motivation to stop!

my numbers really don't look good compared to yours:

Gluten Sensitivity Testing

> Fecal Antigliadin IgA 25 units (Normal Range <10 Units)

> Fecal Antitissue Transglutaminase IgA 25 units (Normal Range <10

> Units)

> Microscopic Fecal Fat Score: 384 (Normal Range < 300 Units)

>Food Sensitivity Testing

> Fecal anti-casein (cow's milk) IgA antibody 29 Units (Normal

> Range <10 Units)

would love to find out what you will eat now that you are off

gluten/casein. have you started?

the good news is that I'm actually getting tired of dairy--can't

believe it, but it's true!

thanks for the rec on that list. i will check it out.

lisa

> >I took that test, too, and it came back positive for both gluten and

> >casein intolerance.

>

> I'm truy sorry to hear that ...sucks, doesn't it? :-(

>

>

> I'm in complete denial about the casein

> >intolerance and have been scarfing down the cream, cream, cream!

>

> I'll do my job and tell you that's not good.

>

> >

> >A few questions, though, that maybe you can answer, Suze, or perhaps

> >someone else who knows. Isn't it true that cream has very little

> >casein? And butter?

>

> They both have casein. Butter probably less than cream, I'd guess.

However,

> ghee is effectively casein-free. I use Purity Farms ghee in place of

butter.

>

> And how do we know whether the casein intolerance

> >they are testing for is a reaction to pasteurized casein (as you see

> >I'm trying to justify my dairy intake!)

>

> It most likely is, but I doubt it has any effect on the test

results. Do you

> EAT pasteurized dairy? If you've only been consuming raw dairy then your

> test results reflect that. I was consuming a lot of raw dairy but

every once

> in a while would get pasteurized cheese or chocolate which contains milk

> powder. Nonetheless, as I understand it, the reaction is to a particular

> amino-acid sequence in casein which should not be affected by

> pasteurization. At least that's the conventional wisdom and may be

true. I

> do know that casein is a very flexible protein and alters shape

depending on

> pH but I don't think it alters it's amino acid sequence. Although

that is

> just a guess on my part.

>

> However, they are only testing for *cow* milk casein, so it's

possible you

> might be OK with goat or sheep milk products. However, I would only

consume

> these products *fermented* if you decide to experiment with them.

>

> Further, there are four main casein fractions (alpha, beta, gamma

and kapa,

> I think) which I believe all species' milk contains, yet there are

multipe

> variants of these fractions. Enterolabs does not know which variant

of which

> fraction they are testing for.

> Moreover, it's been found that alpha s-1 casein seems to be the most

> problematic and these variant seems to be most abundant in modern

breeds of

> cows.

>

>

> >

> >Also, would you mind sharing what your gluten intolerance number was?

> >Just curious about how it compares to mine since you mentioned that

> >you think it has only been in the last few years that you developed

> >the intolerance.

>

> Here are my numbers:

>

> Gluten Sensitivity Testing

> Fecal Antigliadin IgA 8 Units (Normal Range <10 Units)

>

> Fecal Antitissue Transglutaminase IgA 15 Units (Normal Range <10

> Units)

>

> Microscopic Fecal Fat Score: 161 Units (Normal Range < 300 Units)

>

> HLA-DQ Gene Molecular analysis: HLA-DQB1*0201, 0201

>

>

> Food Sensitivity Testing

> Fecal anti-casein (cow's milk) IgA antibody 16 Units (Normal

> Range <10 Units)

>

> It's important to note several things:

>

> 1. Fecal Antitissue Transglutaminase IgA is a more relevant marker than

> Fecal Antigliadin IgA. Especially since a small percent of folks cannot

> produce adequate IgA so the numbers can be deceptive for antigliadin

IgA.

>

> 2. I was taking gluten and casein-digesting enzymes when I took the

stool

> sample. I was thinking the enzymes weren't working, but perhaps they

were.

> Perhaps my numbers might've been higher had I not taken them.

>

> 3. I also forgot to go off my regular digestive enzyems when I took the

> test. Therefore the fecal fat score could be moot. Although the guy

I talked

> with at Enterolab thought the two months I'd been on the enzymes

wouldn't

> affect the fat score.

>

> 4. I have two copies of the most common gene that predisposes one to

gluten

> sensitivity. Enterolab told me this plus the Fecal Antitissue

> Transglutaminase IgA are enough to determine that I'm positive.

>

> It was the Transglutaminase number that the enterolab rep told me

suggested

> I'd only been gluten sensitive for a few years cuz it's somewhat low. He

> said, in time it would increase if I continued eating gluten.

Apparently,

> this cannot be applied to antigliadin IgA though.

>

> I also wonder if I'm reacting to candida in my system since it has an

> indentical peptide chain as gluten.

>

> So what were your scores if you don't mind sharing?

>

> Are you on the GFCFNN list? It's a great support group for people

like us!

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. "

--

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 6/28/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> >You mean it's the conventional wisdom that pasteurization doesn't

> >change amino acid sequence, or it's the primary wisdom that it follows

> >from that that pasteurization wouldn't be a factor in immune reaction?

>

> The former. Although it seems the latter would flow from that.

I don't think so, as we both agreed that pasteurization could affect

the digestibility, and an immune reaction would be to undigested

casein.

> It's not to my knowledge. I didn't mean to indicate it was, I was just

> mentioning another factor for consideration. Although it IS possible that

> heat changes the micelle cluster in some way. Casein apparently exists

> primarily in large micelle clusters. This site mentions something about

> heat and acidity affecting equilibria between the micelle and the milk serum.

I

> do not know if that has any effect on peptide exposure though. Note also it

> looks like there are peptide strands hanging off the micelle in the bottom

> figure.

>

> http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/chem.html#protein3

That website says that heat causes irreversible aggregation of micelles:

" At temperatures above the boiling point casein micelles will

irreversibly aggregate. On heating, the buffer capacity of milk salts

change, carbon dioxide is released, organic acids are produced, and

tricalcium phophate and casein phosphate may be precipitated with the

release of hydrogen ions. "

> Additionally, from what I understand, casein is *unusually* flexible - the

> stuff I've read said it acts differently than most other proteins due to

> it's unusual degree of flexibility. But again I don't know if this in any

> way affects it's digestibility or amino acid sequences.

I don't know anything about casein chemistry, but I do know that all

proteins will only exist in the natural state within a certain pH

range, and outside of that range they denature. Some will have more

than one natural form and thus have other ranges where they change

shape without completely unraveling. Perhaps what you are referring

to is that casein exists in a variety of shapes at a variety of pH

ranges without denaturing, in which case that would make sense and my

original response would be inapplicable.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>>>(Er, well, I wouldn't give up on the sheep kefir too quick either

>>>to be honest!!!)

>

> Right! I'll give it a month or two and see if I have any symptoms.

> > Suze Fisher

Wow.. there's that word again, " symptoms " . Am I the only one on the

planet who can eat gluten and casein, but " have no symptoms " EXCEPT a

gut with no ability to absorb nutrients anymore due to the lack of

villi? I feel dizzy.... going to bed to prepare for my ct scan

tomorrow...

:-D

~Robin

[Guest guest]

>>I left out an important point! The Enterolab rep thought I've only

> >>been gluten sensitive for about 2 years based on my antitissue

>> Transglutaminase score. That fits right within the timeframe that

> >>I was thinking of due to my symptoms, which started with candida

>> and loose stools about 3 years ago and ended with bloat about a

>> year ago.

>> Suze Fisher

Hi Suze, Just wondering what you think about this: My

gastroenterologist thought that the real problems for celiac start

when your body has sustained some " insult " . In my case he said he

thinks it was a virus that may have really set it off. (He thinks a

virus was behind the Lake Tahoe CFS outbreak in 1986 that I was

sorely infected with. They called it Epstein-Barr back then..) He

said he thinks celiac is " the great mimic " and that is why it is so

often underdiagnosed..

Your candida must have come about from some other " insult " no? Did

you take a lot of antibiotics around that time for something? Or

what caused the imbalance?

~Robin

Ps. And I'd be careful with that sheep's milk.. :-)

[Guest guest]

Robin

You had no gut symptoms, but are you really saying you had no symptoms of

ANY kind? I'm really behind on stuff, so haven't got time just now to go

back through your posts, but haven't you talked about other things you had

going on - chronic fatigue for eg?

Cheers, deb

-----Original Message-----

>>>(Er, well, I wouldn't give up on the sheep kefir too quick either

>>>to be honest!!!)

>

> Right! I'll give it a month or two and see if I have any symptoms.

> > Suze Fisher

Wow.. there's that word again, " symptoms " . Am I the only one on the

planet who can eat gluten and casein, but " have no symptoms " EXCEPT a

gut with no ability to absorb nutrients anymore due to the lack of

villi? I feel dizzy.... going to bed to prepare for my ct scan

tomorrow...

:-D

~Robin

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>Robin

You had no gut symptoms, but are you really saying you had no symptoms of

ANY kind? I'm really behind on stuff, so haven't got time just now to go

back through your posts, but haven't you talked about other things you had

going on - chronic fatigue for eg?

Cheers, deb>>>>>>>>>>

Hi Deb, Before 1986 I was healthy as can be. Looked great, felt great, no

problems. Ate a LOT of wheat and drank a LOT of beer. Then I had CFS 17

years ago (for a few years). No digestive problems during that time either

and no reaction of any sort to wheat or beer or cheese - I was just

virtually paralyzed and couldn't function well.. I ate and drank a lot of

things with gluten in them at that time. Although my doctor just informed me

that the CFS was a form of celiac, I (or my other doctors!) had no reason to

suspect it as the cause at that time.

Then I had an ulcer caused by h. pylori bacteria a year ago. After that

experience is when my digestive troubles began. Doctors made a mis-diagnosis

and then over-prescribed antibiotics, I got a bad candida fungus overgrowth

and then another bacterial problem and it was just awful. I lost about 25

pounds in a little over a month and was scared silly... I'm 5'6 " and weighed

130 pounds before I lost the weight so there wasn't a lot to lose.

But none of the problems I was experiencing were better or worse when I ate

gluten or casein. I was just sick if I ate or didn't eat anything. In fact,

when I lost so much weight so fast from the ulcer I tried to fatten up with

toll house cookies (yum!)

After a few months of trying to get things back on track, I started getting

a terrible fatigue -- similar to the CFS where I couldn't function well or

think straight. I also noted that my stomach was just not getting back to

its regular size. I'm 115 now and look like a skinny girl who's a few months

pregnant.

So sure, I had and have had lots of symptoms but none *seemed* directly

connected to gluten or casein and so that's why I kept eating the stuff.

Now, being off gluten for this long, I'll bet if I ate a piece of bread or

something, I'd probably feel something -- pain? But then again I don't know

(and I don't want to try!)

BTW, the reason I know that I stopped gluten entirely for a year is that, to

get rid of the candida infection, I didn't eat any starch whatsoever. I kept

very careful accounting and so I can say for a fact that I've been

gluten-free for over a year.

My doctor said that it is not uncommon for the " classic " celiac disease

cases to show absolutely no symptoms to gluten ingestion. That's why I was

making the comments you noticed. My position, from my experience, is that if

we know we have an " allergy " to gluten and we're looking to confirm it with

symptoms, well, that just might not be the wisest course of action?

I might add, that unrelated to the celiac disease diagnosis I also happened

to test IgE allergy for both wheat and milk and *still* had no reaction to

those foods.. Very weird.

~Robin

[Guest guest]

I guess my point is that you *did* have symptoms, you just didn't know what

they were being caused by.

I'm just trying to get clear in my mind whether it really is possible to be

*completely* free of sympoms and appear to be in perfect health, and still

be suffering unseen damage from gluten. I still suspect not, or at least not

for long.

What I've been thinking about is testing, and coming to the conclusion that

*all* testing is flawed, and can give a false +ve or -ve. Dr Fine's might be

the most accurate, but it's still not infallible. So any test - whether lab

tests or muscle testing - can be considered a starting point for the most

accurate test - what your body tells you. In other words, cutting the food

out, then reintroducing it after a while (as so many of us have now done).

If its possible to truly have no symptoms, this wouldn't be a good test. But

maybe it's a matter of recognising what symptoms *might* be caused by

gluten, and considering *any* chronic disease or condition to be potentially

caused by gluten.

Am I making sense?

Cheers, deb

-----Original Message-----

My doctor said that it is not uncommon for the " classic " celiac disease

cases to show absolutely no symptoms to gluten ingestion. That's why I was

making the comments you noticed. My position, from my experience, is that

if

we know we have an " allergy " to gluten and we're looking to confirm it

with

symptoms, well, that just might not be the wisest course of action?

I might add, that unrelated to the celiac disease diagnosis I also

happened

to test IgE allergy for both wheat and milk and *still* had no reaction to

those foods.. Very weird.

~Robin

[Guest guest]

< If a person is sick and sicker for a long time with all kinds of

digestive

ailments they are probably less and less able to isolate which foods are

causing the problem because it all seems to be one big problem. They are

just sick and there's no obvious culprit. >

Yes, that's a good point.

< So that's just a couple of ways of looking at it and both ways say to

me,

again, that if you know you have an allergy to these things you should

just

avoid them, " symptoms " or not. ~Robin >

Oh, I DEFINITELY agree with you there. It;s getting someone to the point

whre they're ready to accept they have an allergy.....

Deb.

[Guest guest]

Robin:

I'm concerned about you. I may not have read all your posts, but I

think I remember you said you were using probiotics. What are those

probiotics? And do you follow a bland diet, too, in order to promote

the repairment of damaged tissue? What does your doctor or you think

about short regular fasts in this case?

Thanks for your answers.

José

>

> < If a person is sick and sicker for a long time with all kinds

of

> digestive

> ailments they are probably less and less able to isolate which

foods are

> causing the problem because it all seems to be one big problem.

They are

> just sick and there's no obvious culprit. >

>

> Yes, that's a good point.

>

> < So that's just a couple of ways of looking at it and both ways

say to

> me,

> again, that if you know you have an allergy to these things you

should

> just

> avoid them, " symptoms " or not. ~Robin >

>

> Oh, I DEFINITELY agree with you there. It;s getting someone to

the point

> whre they're ready to accept they have an allergy.....

>

> Deb.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Re: I'm officially casein- and gluten-intolerant

>

>

>>>>(Er, well, I wouldn't give up on the sheep kefir too quick either

>>>>to be honest!!!)

>>

>> Right! I'll give it a month or two and see if I have any symptoms.

>> > Suze Fisher

>

>Wow.. there's that word again, " symptoms " . Am I the only one on the

>planet who can eat gluten and casein, but " have no symptoms " EXCEPT a

>gut with no ability to absorb nutrients anymore due to the lack of

>villi? I feel dizzy.... going to bed to prepare for my ct scan

>tomorrow...

>

Hi Robin,

Good luck with the CT scan today! Well, unlike you I DO have symptoms - VERY

obvious ones. I think I am fortunate in that sense. In the past when I went

off cow's milk and and gluten foods my symptoms did go away. Further, I am

NOT consuming cow's milk. I will be experimenting with only *fermented*

sheep's milk. I did not test allergic to this food. It doesn't mean I'm not

allergic to it, it just means it's an unknown at this point.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

> RE: I'm officially casein- and gluten-intolerant

>

That's why I was

>making the comments you noticed. My position, from my experience,

>is that if

>we know we have an " allergy " to gluten and we're looking to confirm it with

>symptoms, well, that just might not be the wisest course of action?

I just want to point out that I was not talking about a gluten allergy but

an allergy to cow's milk casein. Which I no longer consume.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 6/29/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> Actually, I'm not so sure about that. Beyond an IgA reaction to a specific

> amino acid chain in casein and gluten causing an immune reaction, there is

> also the opiates - gluteomorphin and caseomorphin which cause reactions as

> well (although I'm not sure if they're considered *immune* reactions) and

> the shortest peptide length that causes the problem is only *3* amino acids

> in length! Autistic kids and those with celiac disease (and perhaps those

> who are gluten and casein-sensitive) may not produce enough of the enzyme

> that breaks down gluteomorphin and caseomorphin, called Dipeptidyl

> peptidase

> IV. One job of this enzyme is to break down peptides in which proline is in

> the second position, which is the case with gluteo- and caseo-morphin.

> However, when it breaks them down to a three-amino acid peptide with

> proline

> in the middle, this peptide then inactivates DPP IV! It seems very strange.

> Interestingly, hydrolized gelatin *inhibits* DPP IV and one theory is that

> the hydrolized gelatin in the MMR vaccine contributes to autism.

>

> In any case, I'm still not sure if this is considered an immune reactionm

> but DPP IV is present on lymphocytes - immune system cells - in the lining

> of our intestine, kidneys and blood vessels. Nonetheless, I don't know if

> that means that the opiate-induced rages that some peopel experience from

> caseo- and gluteomorphin are considered immune responses. However, for all

> intents and purposes, it seems that not only is undigested casein an issue,

> but so too is mostly digested casein for those who don't have an adequate

> amount of DPP IV. One theory is that autistic children may have a genetic

> " defect " that interferes with their ability to produce this enzyme, btw.

Interesting. I didn't know about this.

> OK, I didn't have the time to read the site other than the part I posted.

> What temp is the boiling point?

I don't know. It gives the freezing point, but not the boiling point.

Since it's water based, I would guess somewhere around 212F/100C but

I don't know how far it would deviate with all of the other elements.

Chris

[Guest guest]

(lisa) I know, it does suck! I'm sorry you had the same news!

> >Oh geez, but now you've just given me too much info and I am thinking

> >I need to stop dairy. I just don't know how I will deal w/ it!

>

(suze) Well, I don't know if you have to give up all dairy. But if you

did test

> postive for an immune reaction to cow's milk, I'd definitely give up

cow's

> milk. If you have no symptoms of intolerance, it might be too risky to

> experiment with other species' milk since you'd have no idea if you're

> reacting to it or not. I gave up cow's milk as soon as I got my results.

> With gluten, I've given myself 10 days to go off all gluten

foods/drinks, as

> I find I do better when I can mentally prepare myself. Plus I'm

taking DPP

> IV when I consume anything that might have gluten in it.

(lisa) Hey, whats DPP IV?

(Suze) I don't know how you handle deprivation best, but maybe you can

give

> yourself a time limit as well so you can mentally prepare for it.

Since you

> are nursing though, I'd think you should probably go off it sooner

rather

> than later since two other human beings are relying on you being

healthy for

> their own health :-/

(lisa) I know, now i'm feeling so guilty about that, but it's so hard

to know who to trust and dairy is such an easy filling food for me.

Also, I was prepared to be gluten intolerant when I took the test

(although I really doubted i would be), but never even considered I

would have a sensitivity to casein. I had w/in the last 2 years before

the test added it back into my diet when I discovered WAP and raw

dairy. I had done well, I thought, because I had gained the weight I

needed to gain and felt so full and satisfied after my meals.

(lisa) Yes, I mostly consumed raw dairy before the test so I guess those

> >numbers indicate I have a problem w/ that. I just don't have any

> >symptoms so it's hard to stop!

>

(Suze) Maybe the fact it's so hard to stop is a symptom :-) At least

a symptom of

> the addictive affects of caseomorphin.

(lisa) yeah, i know, but sometimes I also think it's just a matter of

having enough calories. I guess I just don't relish the thought of

meat and veggies all day long!

(lisa) Also, I mentioned this test to Dr. Ron Schmid who I consulted

w/ a few

> >times last year, and he essentially disregarded it (so i happily did

> >too!) I also work w/ practitioners who do a form of muscle testing and

> >raw dairy always tests well for me. Hmmm....

(Suze) Well, if it were me, I'd go with the IgA test result over

muscle testing

> personally. As for Ron, I don't know why he disregarded it, I've

written him

> about that to find out.

(lisa) so you e-mailed him, huh? Yeah, he really didn't even seem

interested in discussing it. I sent him Dr. Fine's response about

pasteurized casein vs. raw casein (dr. fine believes it doesn't

matter) and Dr. Ron seems to think it is an important distinction in

terms of intolerance. I know you and chris have been going back and

forth about this issue (i think that's what you are discussing--I'm

having a hard time following! I guess i should really educate myself

better)

The other issue here is that sometimes I feel like i am so crazy w/

the way I eat. I feel like I am eating the healthiest possible foods

including the raw dairy. I see how other people eat and think, " now i

have to give up raw dairy, too? " It's just frustrating.

>

>

>

(suze) Definte positive for everything :-( Did you do the gene test?

If so, what

> was the result?

() Yes, here are the results. Gene test for gluten sensitivity.

Molecular analysis: HLA-DQB1*0501, 0602

Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 1, 1 (subtype, 5,6)

() thanks for the rec on that list. i will check it out.

>

(Suze) The URL is GFCFNN/

> Several folks on this list are also on that one. (It's kind of an

offshoot

> of this list.)

>

> Good luck in going off dairy!

() Thanks! I'm going to post some more questions about dietary

options on that other list! I just joined!

I apologize for not knowing how to respond appropriately w/out making

this a confusing mess. I will have to pay more attention to how people

do this in their posts!

Thanks again for your support. Let me know what you hear from Dr. Ron.

--------------------

[Guest guest]

Good luck w/ this scan. Let us know how it goes!

lisa

I feel dizzy.... going to bed to prepare for my ct scan

> tomorrow...

>

> :-D

>

> ~Robin

[Guest guest]

oh, i'm sorry, rebekah. so what are you eating? I'm afraid to take a

test like that for fear of those results! But it's so good to know so

you can do something about it.

lisa

>

>

> , it could be worse ! I just got our families' results back

from York, and between us all we're allergic to over 20 foods,

including all grains, milk, eggs, nuts and many veggies and fruits.

I'm totally feeling the deprivation !

>

> Rebekah

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > OK, I didn't have the time to read the site other than the part I

posted.

> > What temp is the boiling point?

>

> I don't know. It gives the freezing point, but not the boiling point.

> Since it's water based, I would guess somewhere around 212F/100C but

> I don't know how far it would deviate with all of the other elements.

>

>

boiling point is 180, I think. that's when small bubbles come around

the edge of the pan. Heating cow milk to this point and letting it

cool is a traditional way to reduce its mucus-creating properties

without losing all the raw milk benefits. Also the temp Mother

says to heat to to make firm yogurt in the last issue of Wise Traditions.

B.

[Guest guest]

On 6/29/05, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> boiling point is 180, I think. that's when small bubbles come around

> the edge of the pan. Heating cow milk to this point and letting it

> cool is a traditional way to reduce its mucus-creating properties

> without losing all the raw milk benefits. Also the temp Mother

> says to heat to to make firm yogurt in the last issue of Wise Traditions.

> B.

Milk heated to 180 is definitely not raw!

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hello to all:

I have been watching this debate about caseine and all from a certain

distance. I entirely agree that in a first moment it is frustrating,

if not paralyzing to have to stop eating dairy. I went through all of

this more than 20 years ago when I was first told about the " evils "

of dairy and what is worse, I was a vegetarian at that time, so dairy

was for all practical purposes my only source of animal protein.

I felt devastated with the prospect of having to skip all of it,

though I wasn't suffering from any visible serious symptoms, except

some fatigue and loose stools now and then. Actually it took me a few

years before I was able to say farewell to dairy without tears.

Differently from many of you, I never switched to raw dairy, so I

can't tell if raw dairy would have made a huge difference. Looking

back now, I don't think it would, but I can be wrong. I tried goat's

cheese, but it was much less tasty to me than cow's. And more

expensive too.

Nowadays I still eat butter (which is ok in most cases) and some

cheese once in a blue moon. I don't crave it any more. I have learned

about the evils of grains in general and of gluten in particular on

this forum and elsewhere. I might reduce even further the consumption

of these foods, while maintaining tubers in my diet, especially if I

am some day declared as gluten-intolerant. But maybe due to my

previous experience with dairy, it won't be that difficult to part

with gluten next time around. Let's see.

Adaptation is perhaps only a question of time. In the meanwhile all

those wanting or needing to avoid dairy should try to increase their

consumption of seafood, sardines and nuts, which will provide for all

the calcium they need without the side-effects and ambiguities of

dairy.

This is my two-cents. Excuse me for the interruption.

José

-

> Good luck w/ this scan. Let us know how it goes!

> lisa

>

> I feel dizzy.... going to bed to prepare for my ct scan

> > tomorrow...

> >

> > :-D

> >

> > ~Robin

[Guest guest]

By the way, the boiling point of milk should be slightly higher than

water because it is an aqueous solution. IIRC, dissolved solutes

raise the boiling point and lower the freezing point.

Also, I would think that a full boil-- vigorous bubbling of large

bubbles-- would better indicate that the boiling point has been

reached (defined as the vapor pressure of the solution reaching the

external pressure) than some little bubbles on the side of the pan,

which I would consider to be better described as " beginning to

approach a simmer. "

Chris

[Guest guest]

Rebekah:

What a shame! I am sorry for all of you. Does it mean you can only

eat meats in safety? What if those veggies, nuts and fruits you are

allergic to were organic? Would that make a difference?

JC

> oh, i'm sorry, rebekah. so what are you eating? I'm afraid to take a

> test like that for fear of those results! But it's so good to know

so

> you can do something about it.

> lisa

> >

> >

> > , it could be worse ! I just got our families' results back

> from York, and between us all we're allergic to over 20 foods,

> including all grains, milk, eggs, nuts and many veggies and fruits.

> I'm totally feeling the deprivation !

> >

> > Rebekah

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> By the way, the boiling point of milk should be slightly higher than

> water because it is an aqueous solution. IIRC, dissolved solutes

> raise the boiling point and lower the freezing point.

>

> Also, I would think that a full boil-- vigorous bubbling of large

> bubbles-- would better indicate that the boiling point has been

> reached (defined as the vapor pressure of the solution reaching the

> external pressure) than some little bubbles on the side of the pan,

> which I would consider to be better described as " beginning to

> approach a simmer. "

>

>

Yeah, that's the stuff I don't know about--why I said, " I think " . I

just know what's in cookbooks. A simmer on milk is when the steam just

starts to come off the top, no bubbles. With broth it's just a shimmer

on the surface. I thought if bubbles are formed, that's technically

the boiling action.

B.

Heating milk to 180 makes you lose some stuff but retains other stuff.

It's not so heinous as all that.