Re: NT- type raw food diets

June 19, 2005

Check out the Maker's Diet or Sally Fallons new book Eat Fat Lose Fat. Both

involve eating lots of both veggies & raw dairy. It would be easy to add in

lots of the raw & cooked foods to both diets. That is what we do. We have a

very balanced approach...some raw/some cooked at every meal. We do all raw

in the dairy department and partial raw in fruits/veggies. I basically

follow Sally's Eat Fat Lose Fat Everyday Gourmet Diet but we also do raw

fruits/veggies at every meal and juice daily. I love the combo and I feel

great.

Blessings,

NT- type raw food diets

Are there any raw diets out there that contain raw animal foods like

milk, cream, butter, egg yolk, and maybe a litte raw meat? But that

aren't to the extreme of eating mostly animal foods? That maybe even

included sprouts, etc? I'm having a hard time finding anything like

that, and am curious about experimenting with a raw diet. But I

either find one extreme-- raw vegan, or the other extreme--like the

raw paleo type diets.

What do you all think???

--AB

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June 19, 2005

When we say " raw " food can it also mean fermented foods like sauer kraut and

kim chee? I mean, isn't fermented food as good or better than raw food in

that it contains all the enzymes? Just something I've always wondered...

~Robin

June 20, 2005

Hi Jony,

I think that is your name, isn`t it?

I don`t know that I can help you a lot, but I feel like saying a

couple of things.

I don`t know what your reasons are for going raw. Simple curiosity or

a need to improve your health? Lose weight? And another point - do

you want all raw or just a section?

Since we don`t know much about you (age, profession, lifestyle,

purse) and your motivations, it is very hard and even maybe dangerous

to tell you what to do.

As a very cautious approach, anyway, I`d suggest you increase very

gradually your intake of raw (if possible organic) foods, beginning

with more raw vegetables and fruit, and see how you feel. Of course

you may need to have strong teeth when you eat raw veggies or

patience to chew. At the same time, reduce your intake of junk food,

assuming that you still eat it, and then proceed to reduce suspicious

foods, like wheat and milk. Maybe you can go low-carb. This may take

a very long time, maybe a few months. I wouldn`t recommend a

overnight switch to raw foods. Then maybe later you could try some

rare meat and then some raw meat, to see how you like it. The same

with eggs (I can eat them almost raw, poached, but not really raw,

even if they come from my own hens). I personally don`t like raw meat

and eggs, but if it was very fresh and well-seasoned meat, I wouldn`t

mind eating it. This is me. It can be different with you. Did you

ever try sushi or carpaccio? Or could it be either too expensive or

unavailable in your place?

I may be wrong, but I think that most of us should have a mixed diet,

partly cooked, partly raw. Sometimes (summer) maybe more raw than

cooked. Sometimes (winter) more cooked than raw.

Besides your own experiences, I think you may need the support from

other people and books. I know - that is why you came here. But first

you have to clarify at least to yourself what your objectives are and

how far you are fearless to go. I am myself fearful. I can only go

50% raw.

Sorry if this doesn`t add much to your query. Other members will

probably give you different and better insights into these matters.

--- In , Quick <jaq@p...>

wrote:

> >

> > From: " chica3324 " <jony3324@c...>

> >Subject: NT- type raw food diets

> >

> >Are there any raw diets out there that contain raw animal foods

like

> >milk, cream, butter, egg yolk, and maybe a litte raw meat? But

that

> >aren't to the extreme of eating mostly animal foods? That maybe

even

> >included sprouts, etc? I'm having a hard time finding anything

like

> >that, and am curious about experimenting with a raw diet. But I

> >either find one extreme-- raw vegan, or the other extreme--like the

> >raw paleo type diets.

> >

> >What do you all think???

>

> I think you're trying to ask somebody's permission to eat

something.

> If your body wants to mix this stuff, just go ahead and do it. If

> something doesn't work for your individual body, you'll figure it

> out. There's nothing about doing it that's going to harm you.

> --

> Quick, USUM (ret.)

> www.en.com/users/jaquick

>

> " Every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure. " --the

> White Rose, leaflet #1

June 20, 2005

>

> I think you're trying to ask somebody's permission to eat something.

> If your body wants to mix this stuff, just go ahead and do it. If

> something doesn't work for your individual body, you'll figure it

> out. There's nothing about doing it that's going to harm you.

> --

> Quick, USUM (ret.)

> www.en.com/users/jaquick

>

> " Every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure. " --the

> White Rose, leaflet #1

Thanks . I'm actually more interested in finding out if anyone

has heard of a diet like this that has already been invented. I

don't know if I have the creative energy right now to invent it

myself. lol But thanks for the validation anyway!

June 20, 2005

Yes you are correct! Raw is a hard pill to swallow because there are many

times that your body does not digest it properly and just treats it as

" fiber " . It really depends on the particular food...such as greens...they

need to be cooked and tomatoes too.

That's why we do a little of each. Fermented Foods add a whole different

set of enzymes to your stomach and a small amount should be eaten with every

meal. Most fermented foods are raw & fermented so they have both types of

enzymes. Yummy!

Blessings,

-----Original Message-----

From:

[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Robin Reese

When we say " raw " food can it also mean fermented foods like sauer kraut and

kim chee? I mean, isn't fermented food as good or better than raw food in

that it contains all the enzymes? Just something I've always wondered...

~Robin

June 20, 2005

Well I don't think you need to invent it. Just eat! Start with the

basics....raw dairy products, sprouted soaked grains, raw veggies. They are

all easy and readily available. Take what you are already eating and improve

it based on the NT principles. Have you read any of the books yet? It is

best to start with the easy things so that you don't overwhelm your body. I

alwasy recommend...start slow and add one next thing a week. That is the

best way to change your diet (making it a lifestyle) instead of some new

" fad " diet.

Blessings,

-----Original Message-----

From:

[mailto: ]On Behalf Of chica3324

Thanks . I'm actually more interested in finding out if anyone

has heard of a diet like this that has already been invented. I

don't know if I have the creative energy right now to invent it

myself. lol But thanks for the validation anyway!

June 20, 2005

Great Reply! That is basically what I was trying to say yet you said it

much better. Not sure how well I can think, type and nurse!

Blessings,

-----Original Message-----

From:

[mailto: ]On Behalf Of José Barbosa

I don`t know what your reasons are for going raw. Simple curiosity or

a need to improve your health? Lose weight? And another point - do

you want all raw or just a section?

Since we don`t know much about you (age, profession, lifestyle,

purse) and your motivations, it is very hard and even maybe dangerous

to tell you what to do..

June 20, 2005

>>. Fermented Foods add a whole different

set of enzymes to your stomach and a small amount should be eaten with every

meal. Most fermented foods are raw & fermented so they have both types of

enzymes. Yummy!

Blessings,

>>>>>>>>

Hi , You mention a " small amount of fermented " ... What if you have a

" large amount of fermented " foods with each meal? Better? Worse? Some meals

I eat are almost half fermented food and I wonder sometimes if one can

consume too much of the stuff...

~Robin

June 20, 2005

Ya know....I am not sure on that one. I know the recommendation is atleast

1/2 cup to 1 cup but I think that is a minumum....not a max! Trust your

body. If it is all working well and you are feeling good...than keep it up!

Alteast that's my philosophy. If your body needs it than it will taste

good and keep everything running well.

-----Original Message-----

From:

[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Robin Reese

Hi , You mention a " small amount of fermented " ... What if you have a

" large amount of fermented " foods with each meal? Better? Worse? Some meals

I eat are almost half fermented food and I wonder sometimes if one can

consume too much of the stuff...

~Robin

June 21, 2005

>

> From: " chica3324 " <jony3324@...>

>Subject: Re: NT- type raw food diets

>

>>

>> I think you're trying to ask somebody's permission to eat something.

>> If your body wants to mix this stuff, just go ahead and do it. If

>> something doesn't work for your individual body, you'll figure it

> > out. There's nothing about doing it that's going to harm you.

>

>Thanks . I'm actually more interested in finding out if anyone

>has heard of a diet like this that has already been invented. I

>don't know if I have the creative energy right now to invent it

>myself. lol But thanks for the validation anyway!

Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. It's just that this notion of

" inventing a diet " strikes me as very odd, unless it's for a

specific purpose, like losing weight or controlling a chronic

disease. Is that the case here? If so, maybe we can help you better.

Diets traditionally seem to happen rather than be invented. One has

X number of edible things available in a given ecosystem, and one

eats what's in season. Through trial and error, the culture learns

what is and isn't such good food, and which foods need what

processing to be at their best. It's a little more complex now,

because the ecosystem has been broken wide open, and now we have

maybe too many rather than too few choices, and need to establish

what works best with what else.

There are Juneberry trees all around my workplace, so breakfast today

was fresh Juneberries. Where's the room in " a diet " for that?

--

Quick, USUM (ret.)

www.en.com/users/jaquick

" Every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure. " --the

White Rose, leaflet #1

June 21, 2005

Goodness, I didn't expect this to get so complicated! LOL I know I

don't come on to this list very often, I just figured that since it is

such a high volume list, there would probably be at least someone who

might be know if there is a book or something out there that had the

principles that I talked about, or someone who has experimented with a

primarily raw diet including animal foods.

Sorry if " inventing " a diet sounded wierd. I thought it would be

obvious what I meant--I just feel like I need some guidelines to

follow to make sure I'm getting all the right nutrients that I need.

I was following Eat Fat Lose Fat, but it has been feeling more like a

winter diet, and so I wanted to try something else for the summer.

Yes, I'd like to lose a few pounds, but I'm primarily trying to figure

out the best way for me to eat for life.

-a

> >

> > From: " chica3324 " <jony3324@c...>

> >Subject: Re: NT- type raw food diets

> >

> >>

> >> )

>

> Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. It's just that this notion of

> " inventing a diet " strikes me as very odd, unless it's for a

> specific purpose, like losing weight or controlling a chronic

> disease. Is that the case here? If so, maybe we can help you better.

> Diets traditionally seem to happen rather than be invented. One has

> X number of edible things available in a given ecosystem, and one

> eats what's in season. Through trial and error, the culture learns

> what is and isn't such good food, and which foods need what

> processing to be at their best. It's a little more complex now,

> because the ecosystem has been broken wide open, and now we have

> maybe too many rather than too few choices, and need to establish

> what works best with what else.

>

> There are Juneberry trees all around my workplace, so breakfast today

> was fresh Juneberries. Where's the room in " a diet " for that?

> --

> Quick, USUM (ret.)

> www.en.com/users/jaquick

>

> " Every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure. " --the

> White Rose, leaflet #1

June 22, 2005

A nice dinner could be made of traditional corned beef, traditional

swiss cheese, and traditional sauerkraut. If they're truly

traditional, then they're raw.

That's basically the ingredients of a reuben sandwich, minus the

bread. A person could add sprouted bread and homemade russian

dressing if they wished.

> >>. Fermented Foods add a whole different

> set of enzymes to your stomach and a small amount should be eaten

with every

> meal. Most fermented foods are raw & fermented so they have both

types of

> enzymes. Yummy!

>

> Blessings,

> >>>>>>>>

>

> Hi , You mention a " small amount of fermented " ... What if you

have a

> " large amount of fermented " foods with each meal? Better? Worse?

Some meals

> I eat are almost half fermented food and I wonder sometimes if one

can

> consume too much of the stuff...

> ~Robin

>

June 22, 2005

> A nice dinner could be made of traditional corned beef, traditional

> swiss cheese, and traditional sauerkraut. If they're truly

> traditional, then they're raw.

>

> That's basically the ingredients of a reuben sandwich, minus the

> bread. A person could add sprouted bread and homemade russian

> dressing if they wished.

>

oh, laura, that sounds heavenly!! let's see, i can get the raw swiss

and the sauerkraut...a friend of mine (a chapter leader) made the most

heavenly corned beef once...i'll have to get on it.

laura in nj

June 22, 2005

,

RE: " corned beef " ....share the recipe when you get it please )

June 22, 2005

[chica3324] Are there any raw diets out there that contain raw animal foods like

>milk, cream, butter, egg yolk, and maybe a litte raw meat? But that

>aren't to the extreme of eating mostly animal foods? That maybe even

>included sprouts, etc? I'm having a hard time finding anything like

>that, and am curious about experimenting with a raw diet. But I

>either find one extreme-- raw vegan, or the other extreme--like the

>raw paleo type diets.

[] I think you're trying to ask somebody's permission to eat something.

If your body wants to mix this stuff, just go ahead and do it. If

something doesn't work for your individual body, you'll figure it

out. There's nothing about doing it that's going to harm you.

[MikeP] I agree completely with your reply !!! But I should

say more, because my diet seems to fit what you're asking about,

chica3324.

Roughly, here's what I eat:

-raw kefir, but a little fresh raw milk and raw cheese sometimes

-raw egg yolks

-raw beef (muscle meats, liver, kidneys, heart, brain)

-some other meats (raw oysters, cooked or raw octopus, dried shrimp

and anchovies in kimchi, frozen small fish in soups, insects, cooked

pork, venision instead of beef as available in season)

-beef/venison stock (sometimes with the heavily boiled meat that falls

off the carcass added to dishes)

-heavily boiled sea veggies (kelp, alaria)

-raw and steamed/boiled greens, many gathered wild (nettle, dandelion, etc)

-various raw sprouts (mostly legumes, and including almonds, peanuts,

and some brassicas)

-various veggies raw and steamed/boiled (lots of stuff)

-lots of spices (seeds, bark, roots, bulbs, etc) in soups/curries

-coconut (fresh young coconut water and meat, and canned coconut milk;

often raw and often boiled)

-wild berries, some tamarind (as a flavoring)

-kimchi, sauerkraut, etc

-coconut water kefir

Once in a blue moon I eat some other fruits (local and exotic, in and

out of season), grains, and junk food. I have no allergies or health

problems, so I am pretty lax about my diet and will eat pretty much

anything given the right circumstance. I eat these foods in various

combinations (plain individual items, salads, curries, etc) depending

on season, availability, whim, lifestyle habits, etc. I tend to eat

very small portions of any one type of food and aim for variety in my

daily diet, though kefir is an exception because sometimes I come

close to living off it! My diet is medium-fat and medium-carb.

Overall, the main categories of cooked foods I eat are stock and

certain veggies. Almost all of my animal foods are raw and my plant

foods are fairly well split between raw, cooked, and fermented (which

is raw in the narrow sense). 99.9% of cooking is done with water, by

steaming, simmering, or boiling. It is extremely rare that I fry or

bake foods. Overall it tends to work out as about 70-80% raw, which is

a higher percentage than most " raw foodists " . I'm not a raw foodist;

I think it's a mystical and ignorant movement, and that cooked foods

can be fabulously healthy and that the ideal form of any food

substance has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. Eating 100% raw is

possible and doable and fine, but completely unnecessary, no better

than mixed raw and cooked diets, and quite ridiculous in practice for

almost anybody. It's just mysticism and extremism to insist on a 100%

raw diet.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

June 23, 2005

:

One thing I didn't understand: that was when you said, in other

words, your " quota " of raw foods was about 70-80%, which was higher

than most rawfoodists'. How come higher? What is your definition of a

rawfoodist? I thought a rawfoodist ate 100% or almost 100% raw, in

any case always over 90%.

I wish I could have and afford such a varied diet as yours. It seems

that while knowing what is best for you, you are able to accommodate

yourself to every situation. That is great. That is always what I am

striving to do. For me, however, the most difficult environment is a

child's birthday party. Oh, it is extremely difficult (though not

impossible) to find something edible (and really funny for that

matter) there. A school cafeteria can also give you a hard time.

, I don't know if you are able to answer the two following

questions on-line. Now I seem to know better than to ask any question

without wondering if it could be in the first place offensive,

indiscreet, ideologically charged, or silly. One is rather general,

the other is more specific.

1. Do you eat raw beef because you think it is much healthier,

because you like it that way, or both?

2. In order to eat kidneys raw, is there any special preparation?

Feel free to decline to answer or to direct me off-line, if

appropriate.

Thanks.

José

> [chica3324] Are there any raw diets out there that contain raw

animal foods like

> >milk, cream, butter, egg yolk, and maybe a litte raw meat? But

that

> >aren't to the extreme of eating mostly animal foods? That maybe

even

> >included sprouts, etc? I'm having a hard time finding anything

like

> >that, and am curious about experimenting with a raw diet. But I

> >either find one extreme-- raw vegan, or the other extreme--like the

> >raw paleo type diets.

>

> [] I think you're trying to ask somebody's permission to eat

something.

> If your body wants to mix this stuff, just go ahead and do it. If

> something doesn't work for your individual body, you'll figure it

> out. There's nothing about doing it that's going to harm you.

>

> [MikeP] I agree completely with your reply !!! But I should

> say more, because my diet seems to fit what you're asking about,

> chica3324.

>

> Roughly, here's what I eat:

> -raw kefir, but a little fresh raw milk and raw cheese sometimes

> -raw egg yolks

> -raw beef (muscle meats, liver, kidneys, heart, brain)

> -some other meats (raw oysters, cooked or raw octopus, dried shrimp

> and anchovies in kimchi, frozen small fish in soups, insects,

cooked

> pork, venision instead of beef as available in season)

> -beef/venison stock (sometimes with the heavily boiled meat that

falls

> off the carcass added to dishes)

> -heavily boiled sea veggies (kelp, alaria)

> -raw and steamed/boiled greens, many gathered wild (nettle,

dandelion, etc)

> -various raw sprouts (mostly legumes, and including almonds,

peanuts,

> and some brassicas)

> -various veggies raw and steamed/boiled (lots of stuff)

> -lots of spices (seeds, bark, roots, bulbs, etc) in soups/curries

> -coconut (fresh young coconut water and meat, and canned coconut

milk;

> often raw and often boiled)

> -wild berries, some tamarind (as a flavoring)

> -kimchi, sauerkraut, etc

> -coconut water kefir

>

> Once in a blue moon I eat some other fruits (local and exotic, in

and

> out of season), grains, and junk food. I have no allergies or health

> problems, so I am pretty lax about my diet and will eat pretty much

> anything given the right circumstance. I eat these foods in various

> combinations (plain individual items, salads, curries, etc)

depending

> on season, availability, whim, lifestyle habits, etc. I tend to eat

> very small portions of any one type of food and aim for variety in

my

> daily diet, though kefir is an exception because sometimes I come

> close to living off it! My diet is medium-fat and medium-carb.

>

> Overall, the main categories of cooked foods I eat are stock and

> certain veggies. Almost all of my animal foods are raw and my plant

> foods are fairly well split between raw, cooked, and fermented

(which

> is raw in the narrow sense). 99.9% of cooking is done with water,

by

> steaming, simmering, or boiling. It is extremely rare that I fry or

> bake foods. Overall it tends to work out as about 70-80% raw, which

is

> a higher percentage than most " raw foodists " . I'm not a raw

foodist;

> I think it's a mystical and ignorant movement, and that cooked foods

> can be fabulously healthy and that the ideal form of any food

> substance has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. Eating 100% raw

is

> possible and doable and fine, but completely unnecessary, no better

> than mixed raw and cooked diets, and quite ridiculous in practice

for

> almost anybody. It's just mysticism and extremism to insist on a

100%

> raw diet.

>

> Mike

> SE Pennsylvania

>

> The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

June 23, 2005

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:55:15 -0000

José Barbosa <jcmbarbosa52@...> wrote:

> :

>

> One thing I didn't understand: that was when you said, in other

> words, your " quota " of raw foods was about 70-80%, which was higher

> than most rawfoodists'. How come higher? What is your definition of a

> rawfoodist? I thought a rawfoodist ate 100% or almost 100% raw, in

> any case always over 90%.

The general consensus seems to be anyone whose diet consists of 60% or

more raw food.

From what I can tell, the 100% are pretty raw, regardless of which camp

you look in.

> , I don't know if you are able to answer the two following

> questions on-line. Now I seem to know better than to ask any question

> without wondering if it could be in the first place offensive,

> indiscreet, ideologically charged, or silly.

LOL! Take a gander through the archives. Look up anything that has a

politics or religion tag in front of it. And if you go back far enough

look up the OREO thread. That occurred before we had the

politics/religion nomenclature.

Believe me when I tell you, this list has been TAME lately.

(but not Mike )

============================================================

" So this is how freedom dies -- to thunderous applause. "

(Senator Padme Amidala in " Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith " )

============================================================

June 23, 2005

>

> > :

> >

> > One thing I didn't understand: that was when you said, in other

> > words, your " quota " of raw foods was about 70-80%, which was

higher

> > than most rawfoodists'. How come higher? What is your definition

of a

> > rawfoodist? I thought a rawfoodist ate 100% or almost 100% raw,

in

> > any case always over 90%.

>

> The general consensus seems to be anyone whose diet consists of 60%

or

> more raw food.

>

> From what I can tell, the 100% are pretty raw, regardless of which

camp

> you look in.

>

> (but not Mike )

Hi :

Thank you. I think that right above you meant to say " the 100% are

pretty rare " , no? Or was that a pun? (I have English as a second

language, you know.)

If your figures are right, then I would say that most, maybe all

people on this list are raw-foodists, at least in the summertime,

right?

Beyond the opposition raw/cooked, there is another important issue as

well. Freshness. For those of us who can't produce or collect the

whole or even a part of our food, how could we ensure that our foods

be fresh? This is hardly a problem with grains and beans, for those

who still eat them, but what about meats, fruits and veggies? What

would we do if we had no fridges, freezers, etc? How much do our

foods suffer with our modern storage methods? Does fermenting keep

freshness?

> ============================================================

> " So this is how freedom dies -- to thunderous applause. "

> (Senator Padme Amidala in " Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the

Sith " )

> ============================================================

June 23, 2005

[José] One thing I didn't understand: that was when you said, in other

words, your " quota " of raw foods was about 70-80%, which was higher

than most rawfoodists'. How come higher? What is your definition of a

rawfoodist? I thought a rawfoodist ate 100% or almost 100% raw, in

any case always over 90%.

[MikeP] As far as I understand it, raw foodists generally have a lax

concept of how percentage counts as a raw diet, which is

understandable considering that even eating 50% raw is a major change

in mindset and habits for most people. I'd bet if you polled raw

foodists you find at least 90% who would say " I consider myself a raw

foodist, but I'm not as raw as I'd like to be " , assuming they tell the

truth, which is not especially likely. In other words, diets close to

100% raw are extremely rare. My definition of " raw foodist " as a

practical descriptivist assessment would be " someone who trys to eat

raw food as much as possible " .

[José] , I don't know if you are able to answer the two following

questions on-line. Now I seem to know better than to ask any question

without wondering if it could be in the first place offensive,

indiscreet, ideologically charged, or silly. One is rather general,

the other is more specific.

[MikeP] LOL! José, I must say your careful prose can run to charming

and incredulous extremes! There's nothing remotely inappropriate

about your two questions! I cannot imagine more neutral and germane

content than this?

[José] 1. Do you eat raw beef because you think it is much healthier,

because you like it that way, or both?

[MikeP] Basically both, but I don't have any basis for believing the

" much " part. My attitude is that if cooking it is completely

unnecessary and has no benefits whatsoever, then it doesn't make sense

to do so given even the slightest advantage to eating it raw. I

believe there are two such advantages. One is that the flavor is

tremendously superior in my experience. The second is that there is

some nutritional advantage, but whether this is merely slight or

significant is a matter I have not seen any convincing evidence to

settle. I tend to think the nutritional difference is fairly

insignificant, but I'm happy to know that if it is in fact

significant, then I'm a lucky guy.

[José] 2. In order to eat kidneys raw, is there any special preparation?

[MikeP] Most people do something or another to attenuate the flavor,

but no special preparation is necessary. I remove the outer layer of

fat, slice it with a knife and put it in my mouth directly or

sometimes buried in a salad. In the archives you'll find some

discussion of the aesthetics of raw kidney cuisine.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

June 23, 2005

--- In , " Donna " <TheInmanHome@h...>

wrote:

> ,

>

> RE: " corned beef " ....share the recipe when you get it please )

will do. meanwhile, if anyone knows a good recipe to post...

laura in nj

June 23, 2005

> [MikeP] As far as I understand it, raw foodists generally have a lax

> concept of how percentage counts as a raw diet, which is

> understandable considering that even eating 50% raw is a major

change

> in mindset and habits for most people. I'd bet if you polled raw

> foodists you find at least 90% who would say " I consider myself a

raw

> foodist, but I'm not as raw as I'd like to be " , assuming they tell

the

> truth, which is not especially likely. In other words, diets close

to

> 100% raw are extremely rare. My definition of " raw foodist " as a

> practical descriptivist assessment would be " someone who trys to eat

> raw food as much as possible " .

** Thank you for the explanation. At best it seems rawfoodism is

something a little bit arbitrary, maybe even vague.

>

> [José] , I don't know if you are able to answer the two

following

> questions on-line. Now I seem to know better than to ask any

question

> without wondering if it could be in the first place offensive,

> indiscreet, ideologically charged, or silly. One is rather general,

> the other is more specific.

>

> [MikeP] LOL! José, I must say your careful prose can run to charming

> and incredulous extremes!

** , it is because I had here and elsewhere some (in my

opinion) painful experiences with my questioning, so I am now rather

like a burned cat who is afraid of fire, if you see the meaning of

this. But I appreciate your frank observation, and I will try to

correct myself by eliminating excessive formality and what may look

like casuistry.

There's nothing remotely inappropriate

> about your two questions! I cannot imagine more neutral and germane

> content than this?

>

> [José] 1. Do you eat raw beef because you think it is much

healthier,

> because you like it that way, or both?

>

> [MikeP] Basically both, but I don't have any basis for believing the

> " much " part. My attitude is that if cooking it is completely

> unnecessary and has no benefits whatsoever, then it doesn't make

sense

> to do so given even the slightest advantage to eating it raw. I

> believe there are two such advantages. One is that the flavor is

> tremendously superior in my experience. The second is that there is

> some nutritional advantage, but whether this is merely slight or

> significant is a matter I have not seen any convincing evidence to

> settle. I tend to think the nutritional difference is fairly

> insignificant, but I'm happy to know that if it is in fact

> significant, then I'm a lucky guy.

** I see. Yours is a very balanced way to look at the question - raw

or cooked. I think I could bring myself to eat some raw beef, but it

really doesn`t appeal to me. So I am happy with my cooked steak. It

is possible that I am losing some nutritional content, however, but

as you said yourself, this loss will not necessarily destroy one`s

health. What I personally find appalling (though of course let anyone

do what they like to do) is rigidity - people only accepting to eat

meat raw, taking their own food into restaurants, meetings and

parties, and refusing to even look at what they call ~cooked

garbage~.

>

> [José] 2. In order to eat kidneys raw, is there any special

preparation?

>

> [MikeP] Most people do something or another to attenuate the flavor,

> but no special preparation is necessary. I remove the outer layer

of

> fat, slice it with a knife and put it in my mouth directly or

> sometimes buried in a salad. In the archives you'll find some

> discussion of the aesthetics of raw kidney cuisine.

** I was concerned about the smell. The only time we had kidneys at

home that smell impregnated the atmosphere, you know. I won`t forget

it. I may yet have to learn a few culinary tricks, I admit.

> Mike

> SE Pennsylvania

>

> The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

June 23, 2005

I loaned out my copy of NT to a friend, but doesn't it contain a recipe

for traditional corned beef?

> > ,

> >

> > RE: " corned beef " ....share the recipe when you get it please )

>

> will do. meanwhile, if anyone knows a good recipe to post...

>

> laura in nj

June 23, 2005

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:06:56 -0000

José Barbosa <jcmbarbosa52@...> wrote:

>

> > The general consensus seems to be anyone whose diet consists of 60%

> or

> > more raw food.

> >

> > From what I can tell, the 100% are pretty raw, regardless of which

> camp

> > you look in.

> >

> > (but not Mike )

>

> Hi :

>

> Thank you. I think that right above you meant to say " the 100% are

> pretty rare " , no? Or was that a pun? (I have English as a second

> language, you know.)

Nope, I meant rare. And I was also referring to those who are a part of

the RVAF/RAF world. I think the raw vegan numbers are similar but I'm

not sure. Its been awhile since this was a hot issue long ago.

> If your figures are right, then I would say that most, maybe all

> people on this list are raw-foodists, at least in the summertime,

> right?

Probably not in the eyes of RVAF folks. And to be quite honest, I'm

aware of not just a few NN'ers where raw food is the minority part of

their diet. While I think the consumption of raw food is increasing

among NN folks, due to a greater emphasis in certain forums, etc., I

would be slow to draw the conclusion you suggest above.

> Beyond the opposition raw/cooked, there is another important issue as

> well. Freshness. For those of us who can't produce or collect the

> whole or even a part of our food, how could we ensure that our foods

> be fresh? This is hardly a problem with grains and beans, for those

> who still eat them, but what about meats, fruits and veggies? What

> would we do if we had no fridges, freezers, etc? How much do our

> foods suffer with our modern storage methods? Does fermenting keep

> freshness?

Fermenting is one way. Root cellars are another. Drying foods is another.

Storing things in a cold pond is another. And I'm sure there are other

ways that I am not aware of and/or haven't thought of.

Refrigeration/freezing is generally not a problem here in America even

for the poorest of folks.. Is that an issue in your neck of the woods?

Personally I think modern storage methods are a great boon to our way of

life, freeing us to do other things that we might not have the time or

creative energy to do if we had to devote ourselves to constantly

bringing in fresh supplies of food.

I think modern storage combined with ancient preservation techniques is

an ideal combo. Some of our modern storage techniques simply makes

available to everyone what was previously available only to few, like

the freezing the eskimos were able to do mostly year around. And modern

technology helps make some of the ancient methods better and more sure

(like a cold room rather than a root cellar).

I think part of the WAPF website says it well:

" The board and membership of the Weston A. Price Foundation stand

united in the belief that modern technology should be harnessed as a

servant to the wise and nurturing traditions of our ancestors rather

than used as a force destructive to the environment and human health;

and that science and knowledge can validate those traditions. "

============================================================

" So this is how freedom dies -- to thunderous applause. "

(Senator Padme Amidala in " Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith " )

============================================================

June 24, 2005

>

> Refrigeration/freezing is generally not a problem here in America

even

> for the poorest of folks.. Is that an issue in your neck of the

woods?

>

> Personally I think modern storage methods are a great boon to our

way of

> life, freeing us to do other things that we might not have the time

or

> creative energy to do if we had to devote ourselves to constantly

> bringing in fresh supplies of food.

>

> I think modern storage combined with ancient preservation

techniques is

> an ideal combo. Some of our modern storage techniques simply makes

> available to everyone what was previously available only to few,

like

> the freezing the eskimos were able to do mostly year around. And

modern

> technology helps make some of the ancient methods better and more

sure

> (like a cold room rather than a root cellar).

>

> I think part of the WAPF website says it well:

>

> " The board and membership of the Weston A. Price Foundation stand

> united in the belief that modern technology should be harnessed as a

> servant to the wise and nurturing traditions of our ancestors rather

> than used as a force destructive to the environment and human

health;

> and that science and knowledge can validate those traditions. "

>

> ============================================================

> " So this is how freedom dies -- to thunderous applause. "

> (Senator Padme Amidala in " Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the

Sith " )

> ============================================================

:

I was basically thinking of instinctos and other communities of

rawfoodists who don't agree with fridges, freezers, and the like.

Don't they say frozen meat is " dead " ? I don't buy that. You very

aptly mention the Eskimoes, so ...

I live in a Third-World country, so to say, but I think that every

household here, even those in a slum, has got a fridge. I haven't

been much in the countryside, but I should think it is the same

there. Unless you have no power (electricity).

When I was four or five (that is as far as I can remember), in the

mid-fifties, fridges were rare. We didn't have one then, and I

remember my mother usually asked our richer neighbour to keep some of

our meats in her fridge. I don't remember what other methods my

mother used to preserve the meats. We ate meat every day, to be sure.

If not meat, then eggs. Maybe she cooked the meats first, because

cooking is a method for preservation. And probably she bought fresh

every day for immediate use.

By the way, I think instinctos can be at times a very tough lot to

deal with. They are a real good match for vegans in terms of narrow-

mindedness and rigidity. This is my feeling.

And I have been looking now and then at the live-foods forum. If all

those posts are really to be trusted, then a considerable number of

its members are full raw-foodists, eating only raw meats and very

little veggies (which they mostly juice) and fruit. I wouldn't say

they suffer from deficiencies; they may even be or look healthier

than most of us, but however they say they follow their " weird " diet

without a load on their minds, I have mixed feelings about that. Why

should we go to such extremes? What is the good of being healthy and

having to live in cubicle? But I may be wrong, after all.

In a few years hence, who knows it will be perfectly mainstream to

eat (unseasoned) raw meat in public, almost like animals used to do

in nature?

José

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