Re: Sugars in Lacto-Fermented Fruit Juices

[Guest guest]

>>So

my question is what happens to the sugars in the lacto fermented

fruit juices? Rhonda<<

~~~I would imagine it's similar to kombucha in how the sugar is used in the

fermentation process. You add almost 2 cups of sugar to about a gallon of tea

for kombucha, which seems like a lot of sugar, but after 10-14 days, most of the

sugar is gone. (Most people don't ferment it more than a week, however.)

Carol

[Guest guest]

:~~~I would imagine it's similar to kombucha in how the sugar is used in the

:fermentation process. You add almost 2 cups of sugar to about a gallon of

:tea for kombucha, which seems like a lot of sugar, but after 10-14 days,

:most of the sugar is gone. (Most people don't ferment it more than a week,

:however.)

:Carol

I imagine alot of the sugar gets converted to dextran, a bacterial

cellulose, formed from glucose by the bacteria. They have to split

the white sugar into glucose and fructose first. Hmm, I'm not sure

how much of the fructose gets used up. Something in there must

eat it or it may get converted to CO2.

In the culture called Nata de Coco the dextran is harvested, boiled,

washed, cut up in chunks, and used as food in desserts and salads.

I wonder if the Kombucha scoby could be prepared the same way

since it also contains dextran.

Did we have a discussion on butyrate on this list? Consuming pectin,

oat xylan, and amylopectin increases butyric acid in the gut. Isn't

dextran and those other celloloses kind of related?

Darrell

[Guest guest]

>>I imagine alot of the sugar gets converted to dextran, a bacterial

cellulose, formed from glucose by the bacteria. They have to split

the white sugar into glucose and fructose first. Hmm, I'm not sure

how much of the fructose gets used up. Something in there must

eat it or it may get converted to CO2.<<

~~~~Here's one link on what goes on with the sugar in kombucha. (But, I think

there's even a chart with numbers at Dom's site):

http://www.kombuchatea.co.uk/kombucha-faq-sugar.asp

>>Did we have a discussion on butyrate on this list? Consuming pectin,

oat xylan, and amylopectin increases butyric acid in the gut. Isn't

dextran and those other celloloses kind of related?

Darrell<<

~~~Yes, we did, but I don't think it went that far, at least not in the

discussion I remember here. I'm at a loss about that.

Carol

[Guest guest]

[Rhonda] BTW, other fruits available through this fruit acquisition are pears,

> apples, oranges and grapefruit. Any ideas about fermenting any of

> those? This program just started about a month ago. I'm wondering

> how this will play out during the summer months. And yes, I work for

> a large company that sells gourmet fruit baskets and towers here in

> the Pacific Northwest, in case anyone is wondering.

[MAP] Sandor Katz has a recipe for fruit kimchi in _Wild

Fermentation_. I'm itching to try it! How about if you try it and

tell us about it!

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

> [MAP] Sandor Katz has a recipe for fruit kimchi in _Wild

> Fermentation_. I'm itching to try it! How about if you try it and

> tell us about it!

[Rhonda] Don't have the book yet, should be buying it along with

another book or two later this month. Fruit kimchi huh? In the mean

time...I have about 20 more kiwi to deal with. These guys aren't

very ripe and flavorful at this point. Think I'll just let them

ripen at room temp, peel and juice them and do some sort of lacto

thingie. I'll be working 60+ hours again this week, so don't have the

time to do much experimenting this go around.

Rhonda

[Guest guest]

>So

>my question is what happens to the sugars in the lacto fermented

>fruit juices? And what about the Vit C that's so high in kiwi? Will

>it increase, decrease? Anyone out there try lacto-fermenting any

>other fruit juices? And if so, how did it turn out? Nourishing

>Traditions has an orange drink I'd like to try. How does all this

>affect your insulin levels?

I ferment everything, using kefir grains as a " starter " (which keeps

them from getting moldy, as a side benefit). Kefir started juices

have the same probiotic effect, for me, as kefir does. But since

I'm casein sensitive, I prefer the fermented juices. Which I call

" kefir beer " (sounds better than " lacto fermented fruit juices " ).

As for the suger: it turns to lactic acid, alcohol, acetic acid,

carbon dioxide, and a variety of aromatic and

sometimes even slimy compounds. Which ones and in which

proportions depends on which bacteria and yeasts are active. If

there are more yeasts, you get more alcohol, otherwise you get

more acids. Some sugars are not eaten, or are eaten very, very,

slowly. This is really so with honey, which stays sweet for a long

long time!

Lactic acid seems to have a very good effect on people with

high blood sugar. So does cinnamon, BTW, and a couple of other

foods which I forget ... they all seem to help regulate blood sugar

and improve insulin sensitivity. Intermittant fasting works really,

really well, which is what I use ... I used to have " hypoglycemic "

reactions if I didn't eat every 2 hours, which isn't diabetes but

some folks say it can be a precursor to diabetes. Anyway, I've

been on the Warrior Diet (eat mostly in one 4 hour period per

day) and THAT problem stopped after 2 days.

However, folks on this list who are T1 diabetics report that

eating high lactic acid foods still makes them need more insulin,

presumably because the lactic acid DOES turn into glucose in

the liver (which is what the textbooks say it does). So it's not

clear to me what folks on a " low carb " diet should do. I know for

me that kefir beer " sets " better than fruit juice does, I don't seem

to do well with that much sugar but lactic acid doesn't seem

to bother me any (nor does the alcohol, for that matter!).

As for vitamins: some increase, some decrease. In general,

wine has a LOT of vitamins in it, to the point that one book

I read says it has every vitamin except D (I have no idea

how true that is). I would think kiwi beer would be quite

good for you, whether or not C in particular decreases.

Heidi Jean

The trouble with the world is that the

stupid are cocksure and the

intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>However, folks on this list who are T1 diabetics report that

>eating high lactic acid foods still makes them need more insulin,

>presumably because the lactic acid DOES turn into glucose in

>the liver (which is what the textbooks say it does). So it's not

>clear to me what folks on a " low carb " diet should do.

Not just more insulin, but the same amount as if the food hadn't been

fermented.

Pretty depressing, frankly.

-

[Guest guest]

>Not just more insulin, but the same amount as if the food hadn't been

>fermented.

>

>Pretty depressing, frankly.

>

>-

Not necessarily depressing. Consider that even protein *can* be turned into

glucose ...

In terms of T2 diabetes, there is pretty clear evidence that the *rate* at

which glucose enters the bloodstream is very critical, not just the total

amount of glucose (which is critical for T1 diabetes treatment).

Koreans eat a lot of white rice, which is a high glycemic food, turned quickly

into glucose. They eat it, however, with a lot of kimchi, which mitigates

the glycemic effect. They seem to be healthy, at least, healthier than

we are!

Heidi Jean

The trouble with the world is that the

stupid are cocksure and the

intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:05:51 -0800, Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> wrote:

>

> Koreans eat a lot of white rice, which is a high glycemic food, turned

> quickly

> into glucose. They eat it, however, with a lot of kimchi, which mitigates

> the glycemic effect. They seem to be healthy, at least, healthier than

> we are!

I just recently read an interesting article on the WFN website along

these lines, about the importance of eating cultured foods with

carbohydrates, AND the importance of carbs in our diet:

http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/store/Carbohydrates.htm

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Not necessarily depressing. Consider that even protein *can* be turned

>into glucose ...

>In terms of T2 diabetes, there is pretty clear evidence that the *rate* at

>which glucose enters the bloodstream is very critical

Sure, but not critical enough for me. I can't drink fermented fruit juice,

I can't drink kombucha, and I have to make yoghurt out of pure heavy cream.

-

[Guest guest]

Fern-

>I just recently read an interesting article on the WFN website along

>these lines, about the importance of eating cultured foods with

>carbohydrates, AND the importance of carbs in our diet:

>

>http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/store/Carbohydrates.htm

The article's interesting enough, but it's full of misinformation. I think

the WFN people are very nice, and I'm very grateful they're providing a lot

of useful, healthy products, but they're not a good source of scientific

information. Take this example:

>>And if a live blood analysis is done on any low carb dieter, it will show

>>rouleaux. Rouleaux is a condition where the red cells stack or clump

>>together. The more acidic the body the more the red cells become

>> " sticky " . The less clustered water a person gets in their diet

>>(clustered water is the water contained inside fresh fruits and

>>vegetables) the more sticky the blood is. In addition, the more toxins

>>in the body, the stickier the blood is. And lastly, I personally, after

>>several months on a low carb diet, showed serious signs of low vitamin

>>C. I have tested this out repeatedly and without fail I begin to be

>>plagued with bleeding gums, broken blood vessels in the eye, bruising

>>easily, etc. It seems to be caused from the lack of fruit.

First, red cell clumping is due to excess refined carbs in the diet, not

the other way around. Second, the whole " acidic/alkaline " thing is

nonsense, as Price's work proves. Third, while there may or may not be

something to the idea that water has memory and can come in different

forms, I'm not betting on it, and again, Price's work (as well as that of

others) proves that we don't _require_ " clustered " water from fruits and

vegetables. And fourth, of course it's possible to develop vitamin

deficiencies on a low-carb diet, just as it is on a high-carb diet. It's

just as easy to eat a crappy diet either way you go.

The rest of the article is just as full of misconceptions and outright

mistakes.

-

[Guest guest]

[ Idol] The rest of the article is just as full of misconceptions

and outright

mistakes.

[Deanna] I have to agree with you, ; non sequitur fallacies galore

in the reasoning of the author. My conclusions are that they have

products to sell, and therefore, nice or not, they are going to sell you

on them one way or the other. Not that I think there was any dishonesty

present, because I think it was merely ignorance. It put me on the

defensive with statements like:

" When fruits and grains are cut out of the diet, the main fiber sources

are cut out and most people on low carb diets are lucky to have one

bowel movement a day. "

http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/store/Carbohydrates.htm

How many problems are there with the reasoning of this one statement?

Well, the kicker for me was the omission of vegetables, which are

naturally lower in carbs and often high in fiber than fruit. And we

could go on from there to the optimal number of bms required daily for

good health, etc.

I don't know. I just couldn't see publishing such nonsense on my

commercial website, personally. Apparently they sell some nice

products, though.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>My conclusions are that they have

>products to sell, and therefore, nice or not, they are going to sell you

>on them one way or the other.

I could be wrong, but I think they're probably not that cynical. I expect

they honestly believe what they're saying.

That doesn't make it any more accurate, though.

-

[Guest guest]

> I could be wrong, but I think they're probably not that cynical. I

> expect

> they honestly believe what they're saying.

>

> That doesn't make it any more accurate, though. -

Okay, maybe, but I see use of propaganda techniques like bandwagoning in

this weird piece. But then, this person knocks the foundation of that

argument out from under it and says s/he's in the minority. It is

almost as bad as those blasted flashing words!

" I have been doing a great deal of thinking over the past few years. I

have talked to a lot of people, including nutritional counselors,

naturopaths, and people with all kinds of problems ranging from cancer

to Crohn's disease to Candida over growth. I have talked with several

naturopathic physicians and counselors who " always win " with Candida. I

love to pick people's brains when given the opportunity, to find out

what works for them, to hear their stories, to learn something more.

You can read all you want and get all kinds of opinions, but you need

testimonies to lend credibility to any teaching or claim. Add to that a

little science and experience and you can usually come up with something

sound. I feel I have done this when it comes to Candida and getting

well, but I am not finding a lot of company right now with my beliefs.

However, I do see an awareness on the horizon. "

Maybe, just maybe, there is a need for some omega 3s in this

individual's diet.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>[] Sure, but not critical enough for me. I can't drink fermented fruit

juice,

>I can't drink kombucha, and I have to make yoghurt out of pure heavy cream.

[HJ] Yeah, that is a problem! OK, I take it back, it's depressing ...

>-

Heidi [HJ] [HTG]

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

> >[] Sure, but not critical enough for me. I can't drink fermented

> fruit juice,

> >I can't drink kombucha, and I have to make yoghurt out of pure heavy cream.

>

> [HJ] Yeah, that is a problem! OK, I take it back, it's depressing ...

Yeah, and I'm not even diabetic. It must be much worse for diabetics.

I keep dreaming that someday I'll figure out how to repair the underlying

problem in my metabolism, but so far, no dice.

-

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:09:33 -0500, Idol <paulidol@...> wrote:

> Heidi-

>

> > >[] Sure, but not critical enough for me. I can't drink fermented

> > fruit juice,

> > >I can't drink kombucha, and I have to make yoghurt out of pure heavy

> cream.

> >

> > [HJ] Yeah, that is a problem! OK, I take it back, it's depressing ...

>

> Yeah, and I'm not even diabetic. It must be much worse for diabetics.

>

> I keep dreaming that someday I'll figure out how to repair the underlying

> problem in my metabolism, but so far, no dice.

, why can't you drink kombucha, kefir beer, etc? What effect does

it have on you?

[Guest guest]

Fern-

>, why can't you drink kombucha, kefir beer, etc? What effect does

>it have on you?

They mess with my blood sugar, with all the attendant side effects: weight

(fat) gain, disrupted sleep (well, more than usual), irritability,

increased susceptibility to sickness (I normally never get sick), etc.

-

[Guest guest]

" " They mess with my blood sugar " "

Hi ,

This might sound dumb....but how would I know if something messed with my blood

sugar? Is it something you can feel, or is it something that you test with an

instrument?

Is it " bad " if something messes with your blood sugar, or is it an individual

thing, or is it normal for things to change your blood sugar right after you eat

them?

I own a " One Touch Ultra " that I bought several years ago when I was

researching bodybuilding, and was curious to see what my blood sugar was...(we

were carb loading after workouts, trying to " spike " our insulin...?!?!)

anyway...I haven't pulled it out in a while...would this be a way to test this,

or should I even worry about it? Would I know it, if I had a problem?

I have been trying to listen to my body, which is really very tough to do,

seems that I don't really know sometimes what is " normal " and what I should

expect.... this became aware to me a couple of years ago when I went to Dr M a

did the metabolic typing thing. The questionnaire that they have you do is

tough (it was for me...) because you have to have really been paying attention

to how you really FEEL when you eat certain things, and not if you just LIKE

something, or have just gotten into a habit of eating something, not paying

attention to whether it made you feel better or worse.

My diet is way cleaned up now, and I eat whole foods, and I try to " combine "

things right (if there is a reality to that...which so far, it seems to me like

there is...). My biggest barometer of how I digest food seems to be the gas

factor. I know of no other way to tell....It really is hard to distinguish how

each food makes me feel. Or is it that I don't have ANY problems with ANY food

and that's the reason I don't notice any subtleties of how food reacts to me?...

TIA for any info you can give me...seems like I hear a fair bit about " blood

sugar " on these groups...

--

Steve (been LOVIN' my homeade kefir!)

[Guest guest]

[steve] I own a " One Touch Ultra " that I bought several years ago when I was

researching bodybuilding, and was curious to see what my blood sugar was...(we

were carb loading after workouts, trying to " spike " our insulin...?!?!)

anyway...I haven't pulled it out in a while...would this be a way to test this,

or should I even worry about it? Would I know it, if I had a problem?

[HJ] I'm glad to hear other folks in the world do that ... I bought a blood

sugar meter because I was tired of theorizing about blood sugar issues and

wanted to know REALLY what was going on, since I'd had " low blood sugar "

episodes since I was a teen, where I could not think, got the shakes, and almost

passed out. Low and behold, when I was having said episode, my blood sugar was

not LOW, but HIGH! I found out that what most people think of as " low blood

sugar " is often " high cortisol " ... the body pumps out cortisol to compensate

when the blood sugar *starts* dropping and overcompensates.

Anyway, I've been able to get it stable, doing more or less what you are doing,

just observing what works and trying lots of stuff. But other people have other

issues, so I can't say what would work for someone else ... can answer for

himself, he seems to have done a LOT of homework on the issue.

Heidi [HJ] [HTG]

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:21:54 -0500, Idol <paulidol@...> wrote:

> Fern-

>

> >, why can't you drink kombucha, kefir beer, etc? What effect does

> >it have on you?

>

> They mess with my blood sugar, with all the attendant side effects: weight

> (fat) gain, disrupted sleep (well, more than usual), irritability,

> increased susceptibility to sickness (I normally never get sick), etc.

Hm. That's a real bummer. Thankfully there are probiotic foods that

are low carb tho.