Re: OT: apartment composting: vermicomposting vs EM composting w/Bokashi

[Guest guest]

-

>I am sorry for the OT content but this is the most resourceful group of

>people I know.

Definitely not OT! " Soil fertility and its essential role in nutrition and

health " sort of covers it, but maybe you've illustrated a deficiency in the

list description.

>The methods I am looking at either use red worms (vermicomposting) or

>Effective Microorganisms (bokashi) in a bucket.

I haven't done either, but I do know that vermicomposting requires

scrupulous avoidance of fats and animal wastes. I don't know whether the

same is true of EM composting.

-

[Guest guest]

> OT: apartment composting: vermicomposting vs EM composting

>w/Bokashi

>

>

>

>Hi All;

>

>I am sorry for the OT content but this is the most resourceful group of

>people I know.

>

>I am interested in composting kitchen vegetable scraps inside my

>apartment (very little room outdoors) or porch, and wondered if one

>method is better than another.

>

>The methods I am looking at either use red worms (vermicomposting) or

>Effective Microorganisms (bokashi) in a bucket.

>

>Does anybody have any tips to offer?

>

>Please email me offlist to reduce list clutter : -)

I'd really appreciate it if any responses would be posted to the list

because I have the same question. Although I do have a yard and would prefer

to compost out there, but I want to accelerate my composting and maximize

it's usefulness to my garden. I'm interested in worms or EM too.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

I second Suze's request for keeping responses onlist. I live in an

apt. with zero outside space, but I'm considering growing lettuce and

tomatoes in window boxes this year. I'm particularly interested in

the smell factor of compost methods done indoors.

[Guest guest]

>>The methods I am looking at either use red worms (vermicomposting) or

>>Effective Microorganisms (bokashi) in a bucket.

I use worms ... they are amazingly easy, and have you PRICED worm compost

at the store? Wow. Anyway, folks around here use them for horse and dog

poop too (unless you have just " wormed " the animal ... yeah, dewormer

kills worms, amazingly!). Worms will eat anything except onions and citrus.

However ... I wouldn't use them in an apartment. The bins get these little

flies and creepy crawlies and the worms crawl out sometimes. Not

really appetizing. Some folks DO use them indoors though.

EM is amazing stuff, and I'd guess a little EM composter would work

great. I do something similar with kefir and chicken leftovers (the

stuff that is too " good " for the worms!).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>I haven't done either, but I do know that vermicomposting requires

>scrupulous avoidance of fats and animal wastes. I don't know whether the

>same is true of EM composting.

:

I don't know who said that, but I know a woman who feeds her worms

mainly horse poop, and they like dog poop too. She has a horse farm,

and has 4-5 bins going to get rid of the poop.

Mine do get fats,

though I feed most of the fats to the chickens. Feed the worms

to the chickens too! Fats are a problem in composting systems,

I think they would be in EM too, because they don't dissolve in water.

For general " getting rid of garbage " ... a chicken is the best, to my

mind. That's why we originally got them. Feeding as many people as

I do, we have a LOT of garbage, too much for our 3x4 worm bin.

Chickens debug the yard too, and help keep the grass short.

But, it would be difficult to keep a chook in an apartment. Maybe in a little

cage

on the balcony, or get very small birds and keep them like you would

a parrot or canary (Banties are very little, look more like

a small quail).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

>

> However ... I wouldn't use them in an apartment. The bins get these little

> flies and creepy crawlies and the worms crawl out sometimes. Not

> really appetizing. Some folks DO use them indoors though.

Hi Heidi;

A lot of the advertising for worms says that you can use them indoors,

but if that doesn't work I have easy access to my basement garage area,

plus a back porch. The basement area doesn't really get below 50'F in

the winter, I imagine with insulation and perhaps a heat pad the worms

would survive the winter.

From what I have been reading on the web I am leaning towards the

worms. I have been generating such high quality kitchen garbage it is

such a shame to throw it out! I can only use so much vegetable trimmings

and oddments in broths. I am also planning a very small garden this

spring, which started me dreaming of compost which led to the worms.

What do you use for a container? Some web sites suggest Rubbermaid bins

but I worry about the outgassing from them. I might have to build a

small 2' x 2' x 1' wood box, as suggested by one of the sites.

Best,

[Guest guest]

:

>A lot of the advertising for worms says that you can use them indoors,

>but if that doesn't work I have easy access to my basement garage area,

>plus a back porch. The basement area doesn't really get below 50'F in

>the winter, I imagine with insulation and perhaps a heat pad the worms

>would survive the winter.

I've heard you can do them indoors, and they don't smell unless you

put onions in the bin (my advice: don't put onions in the bin!). Mine

are outside, even in 10 degree snow, and do fine. They DO NOT like

heat ... 50 degrees is their ideal temp. Also the fermenting food keeps

them warm (even in the snow). Like I said, the main issue is flies. If you

can keep the little flies from getting in in the first place, you should be ok.

> What do you use for a container? Some web sites suggest Rubbermaid bins

>but I worry about the outgassing from them. I might have to build a

>small 2' x 2' x 1' wood box, as suggested by one of the sites.

I have a 3x4x2 wood box with a lid. The water seeps out the sides though ...

which is

fine for me but a pain in the house. The worms don't mind Rubbermaid

as long as they don't get too soggy and can get air. One site had trays with

straw

in them, stacked, and the worms climb up the layers! Anyway, if you use

plastic it will outgas for awhile, then stop ... the dirt should still be fine

for plants (aren't most plants growing in plastic containers these days

anyway?). Also, the wood container I have they used outdoor plywood,

which has all kinds of junk in it (including arsenic).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> wrote:

> I haven't done either, but I do know that vermicomposting requires

> scrupulous avoidance of fats and animal wastes.

> >Heidi wrote:

> >Fats are a problem in composting systems,

My understanding of the vermicomnpost process is that a) bacteria

break down the organic matter (including fats and poo), and worms

eat the bacterially prepared residue, grinding it in their stomachs to

form vermicast, and also innoculating it with additional bacteria.

Animal manure is an important part of the proces, and is used to

atttract the worms before harvesting the vermicaast, ie to separate

the worms from the procesed compost, presumably due to its high

nitrogen content and high bacterial content. My experience with

several different worm farms (although all outside) is that the single

biggest problem is anaerobic conditions, so when loading the wormfarm

provide plenty of bulk (I prefer straw or mulch) so that there is

oxygen available to the bacteria. Anaerobic=alcohol=dead bacteria.

Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb is a good source of info here, although I

haven't referred to it for some time.

[Guest guest]

Heidi mentioned vermicomposting.

Heidi,

Which method do you use to separate the worms from their castings? This was

the job I hated the most - very time-consuming.

Cheers,

and the K9's

[Guest guest]

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> The worms don't mind Rubbermaid

> as long as they don't get too soggy and can get air. One site had

> trays with straw

> in them, stacked, and the worms climb up the layers! Anyway, if you use

> plastic it will outgas for awhile, then stop ... the dirt should still

> be fine

> for plants (aren't most plants growing in plastic containers these days

> anyway?).

>

Thanks Heidi;

I will use the Rubbermaid system as outlined here:

http://www.newfarm.org/features/0804/wormbin/index.shtml

I was worried about the outgassing harming the worms, but if the worms

don't mind, and the plants don't mind, the Rubbermaid seems a cheap and

easy system to set up.

Thank you for the help!

Best,

[Guest guest]

I love my worms! I have a worm box that I have had for about 2 years. I have

even harvested worms and shared them with a friend whose box is full of

worms and having to be split again!!

I have never had trouble with smell or creepy crawlies, I keep my box in a

closet, even in a very tiny apartment in the middle of downtown Portland

(Maine) where I was on the 2nd floor and no place to grow anything outside.

The worms did definitely NOT like the 1600 miles of vibration going down the

road to Mississippi, but seem to be recuperating now. I just harvested about

10 or so pounds of beautiful wonderful earth smelling castings/hummus. They

are a bit slow and I wish I had more worms to do the job faster. About 1

pound of worms will consume about 1 pound of food per week. They will keep

making little eggs as long as there is enough room and food to support them.

The other little creepie crawlies that I have encountered have rarely ever

got outside the box, the few worms that do occasionally escape are kind of

hard to scrape off the floor when they dry out, but they usually only try to

escape if the environment is too acidic for them. I have not done EM

composting yet, though I just got some EM so I may try it as well. I like

the worms. There are lots of sites that explain how to do it. I find it to

be pretty low maintenance and easy.

My son and I grew a couple of tomato plants that volunteered from some of

the castings we mixed with peat moss. The plants grew over 6 feet tall! I

have never seen tomato plants that tall before!

Anyway, I think from what I have read of EM composting there are definite

benefits to doing either.

Cheers

[Guest guest]

> My experience with

>several different worm farms (although all outside) is that the single

>biggest problem is anaerobic conditions, so when loading the wormfarm

>provide plenty of bulk (I prefer straw or mulch) so that there is

>oxygen available to the bacteria. Anaerobic=alcohol=dead bacteria.

>Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb is a good source of info here, although I

>haven't referred to it for some time.

>

>

I agree on the mulch. Mine needs to be " changed " . I bury our

garbage in peat moss, but peat is a lot pricier than plain old straw,

which makes more sense.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>Which method do you use to separate the worms from their castings? This was

the job I hated the most - very time-consuming.

>

>Cheers,

> and the K9's

I don't: you are correct, it is too much work! I tend to stop feeding them on

one side

of the container so they move. But ... if I forget, the worms, castings, and

undigested

food all get tossed in the garden. FREE AT LAST!!!! Well, there isn't so much

for them

to eat in the garden ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Thanks Heidi;

>

>I will use the Rubbermaid system as outlined here:

>http://www.newfarm.org/features/0804/wormbin/index.shtml

>

>I was worried about the outgassing harming the worms, but if the worms

>don't mind, and the plants don't mind, the Rubbermaid seems a cheap and

>easy system to set up.

>

>Thank you for the help!

Thanks to you too! I love the site. I love Rubbermaid too, esp.

the commercial " don't you wish everything was Rubbermaid? " .

I use a LOT of those little bins, for everything!

I have to tell you ... around here, the teenagers, for some reason

known only to themselves, go around hitting mailboxes with baseball

bats. I saw that, our first month here, when we had to replace said

mailbox, and immediately thought of that commercial. I went to the

store, and guess what? They had a Rubbermaid mailbox! So I got it. 7 years ago.

I have no idea how many times it's been hit ... the one next to it is

all dented though, and the door doesn't close. Mine ... good as new.

Don't you wish everything was Rubbermaid ???

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> They had a Rubbermaid mailbox! So I got it. 7 years ago.

> I have no idea how many times it's been hit ... the one next to it is

> all dented though, and the door doesn't close. Mine ... good as new.

>

> Don't you wish everything was Rubbermaid ???

I do love Rubbermaid; especially as a moving and storage aid. I seem to

switch apartments fairly frequently as I grow; and my belongings grow

with me! The Rubbermaid storage boxes are great moving and storage bins;

I have a collection full in the basement. I also have a collection of

cardboard, some of which may be going to the worms! : -)

Best,

[Guest guest]

Hi, I use em, its so simple and cheap. I throw scraps into a plastic

air tight 1 gallon or 5 gallon bucket I keep in the kitchen. Spray

with some em each time I add something. I use my own extended EM

which makes it super cheap. Also add some blackstrap molasses

occasionally to keep good fermentation going. There is no bad smell,

even if in the kitchen for months, in fact it smells pretty nice.

You can throw anything in the compost, meat, bones, etc. The

microorganisms seem powerful enough to break down just about

anything. These guys are of course used to clean up toxic waste

sits. And then when the bucket is full I just bury the stuff in the

ground outside. Lots of info on the em-ag list.

-Joe

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

> >I haven't done either, but I do know that vermicomposting requires

> >scrupulous avoidance of fats and animal wastes. I don't know whether the

> >same is true of EM composting.

>

>I don't know who said that, but I know a woman who feeds her worms

>mainly horse poop, and they like dog poop too. She has a horse farm,

>and has 4-5 bins going to get rid of the poop.

My mistake -- bad phrasing. I didn't mean poop, but meat scraps and the

like. I don't remember whether fat and meat is harmful to the worms, but

I'm told they cause a godawful stench. You don't have that experience?

-

[Guest guest]

Many worms are regularly fed cow manure. That's the standard deal and many

big operations around here do that. Any pet poop is not acceptable however.

Also, no meat and fats. It's just the same as with garden compost. My worms

are in a bin in the house. I've had them for years. I feed them vegetables

and fruit. Also egg shells occasionally to help with acidity. I avoided

fruit in the beginning because, since mine are indoors, I didn't want fruit

flies. But I've found that by burying the fruit really well, I've avoided

fruit flies at least so far. I also put the legs of the worm bin into

individual jars full of mineral oil to deter any ants. That's worked great.

My worm bin smells really nice -- kind of a sweet musky smell. You'd only

know it was in the house if I told you. Worm bins only smell rank if you add

too much food at one time. Those worms are really efficient!

~Robin

[Guest guest]

>My mistake -- bad phrasing. I didn't mean poop, but meat scraps and the

>like. I don't remember whether fat and meat is harmful to the worms, but

>I'm told they cause a godawful stench. You don't have that experience?

>

>-

No, mine get meat and fat ... they got more meat and fat before I started

feeding that sort of thing to the chickens, but they still get it if the

meat goes " bad " or has mold. If you bury the scraps, they don't stink.

The only thing that makes the bin stink is *onions* ... it makes the

worms crawl all over trying to escape too. Took me awhile to figure

that one out. We eat a lot of onions!

Also they HATE kefir or vinegar, though it doesn't ruin the bin in

small amounts. I tried kefirizing the worm scraps, so they wouldn't

smell in the kitchen if I left them for a few days, and the poor

guys writhed in agony when the stuff touched them. They don't

like acidic ferments, I think. Since EM is acidic, I'm guessing they

wouldn't like that either.

Heidi Jean