RE: POLITICS - Anger management (Was: Chris and me rotting in hell)

[Guest guest]

" Gene,

Regarding that, where/how did you get your computer that you are

typing on? I'm not being nosey, so I don't want specifics, just

basics.

Here's a fair warning of the point I will attempt to make. Do you

practice what you preach? Do you abstain from what you denounce? "

I have denounced any participation in modern society, and proclaimed that

one should live a life of abstinence? That is really so silly. Essentially

what you're saying is that the very fact that I can call you on your idiocy

on a mailing list is internally contradictory. ooooooh, that's heavy.

But, for your information, I do this all telekinetically, and I am

controlling the computer of the fascist corporate executive who lives across

the street.

[Guest guest]

_____

From: Gene Schwartz [mailto:implode7@...]

Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:14 PM

Subject: RE: POLITICS - Anger management (Was: and me

rotting in hell)

" Gene,

Regarding that, where/how did you get your computer that you are

typing on? I'm not being nosey, so I don't want specifics, just

basics.

Here's a fair warning of the point I will attempt to make. Do you

practice what you preach? Do you abstain from what you denounce? "

I have denounced any participation in modern society, and

proclaimed that

one should live a life of abstinence? That is really so silly.

Essentially

what you're saying is that the very fact that I can call you on

your idiocy

on a mailing list is internally contradictory. ooooooh, that's

heavy.

But, for your information, I do this all telekinetically, and I

am

controlling the computer of the fascist corporate executive who

lives across

the street.

----------------

Gene,

Yeah that's funny and clever and all that, but I assume I can

assume the answers since you refuse to give any. Why did you not

abstain from buying your computer, and instead give that money to

the poor? Why did you instead give money for your computer to a

capitalistic enterprise that, according to you, harms so many

people? Why do you exhaust yourself posting here when you could

be out donating all your time to benefiting the poor? Do you work

for a company? Do you take their check? Do you make money for

yourself and make a company richer? Do you drive a car to your

job? Do you live in a house? Do you buy clothes?

I don't really expect any more of a straight answer from you on

these questions than you gave on the previous ones. In such an

absence of answers, it won't be hard to fill in the blanks.

Actually, the questions speak for themselves and are more for

demonstrative purposes (for the readers).

Now, what were you saying earlier about honesty? You don't really

have to answer that one either.

-Mark

[Guest guest]

" Gene,

Regarding that, where/how did you get your computer that you are

typing on? I'm not being nosey, so I don't want specifics, just

basics.

Here's a fair warning of the point I will attempt to make. Do you

practice what you preach? Do you abstain from what you denounce? "

I have denounced any participation in modern society, and

proclaimed that

one should live a life of abstinence? That is really so silly.

Essentially

what you're saying is that the very fact that I can call you on

your idiocy

on a mailing list is internally contradictory. ooooooh, that's

heavy.

But, for your information, I do this all telekinetically, and I

am

controlling the computer of the fascist corporate executive who

lives across

the street.

Gene,

" Yeah that's funny and clever and all that, but I assume I can

assume the answers since you refuse to give any. "

Well, sorry, but my life isn't part of this discussion. What I do with my

money doesn't validate or invalidate what I say. So, you can triumphantly

proclaim that simply because I'm using a computer I'm a hypocrite. I've

already called you an asshole, so, I guess it's fair. But I just don't take

you seriously.

According to you, if I have spent any money on any equipment that enables me

to respond to you, you win the argument by default. That's kind of funny. I

think really that only people like you and would countenance idiocy

like that. I give a little more credit to though I dunno.

[Guest guest]

_____

From: Gene Schwartz [mailto:implode7@...]

Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:07 AM

Subject: RE: POLITICS - Anger management (Was: and me

rotting in hell)

" Gene,

Regarding that, where/how did you get your computer that you are

typing on? I'm not being nosey, so I don't want specifics, just

basics.

Here's a fair warning of the point I will attempt to make. Do you

practice what you preach? Do you abstain from what you denounce? "

---------------------------------

I have denounced any participation in modern society, and

proclaimed that

one should live a life of abstinence? That is really so silly.

Essentially

what you're saying is that the very fact that I can call you on

your idiocy

on a mailing list is internally contradictory. ooooooh, that's

heavy.

But, for your information, I do this all telekinetically, and I

am

controlling the computer of the fascist corporate executive who

lives across

the street.

----------------------------

Gene,

" Yeah that's funny and clever and all that, but I assume I can

assume the answers since you refuse to give any. "

----------------------------

Well, sorry, but my life isn't part of this discussion. What I do

with my

money doesn't validate or invalidate what I say. So, you can

triumphantly

proclaim that simply because I'm using a computer I'm a

hypocrite. I've

already called you an asshole, so, I guess it's fair. But I just

don't take

you seriously.

According to you, if I have spent any money on any equipment that

enables me

to respond to you, you win the argument by default. That's kind

of funny. I

think really that only people like you and would

countenance idiocy

like that. I give a little more credit to though I dunno.

-------------------------------

Gene,

What makes your life more immune to scrutiny? You've sure

ridiculed other's as part of this discussion. Apparently, you do

not practice what you preach, NOR can take what you dish out.

Your own words and actions make you a hypocrite by default,

nothing else.

What does someone like you think of the US Constitution and the

concepts of civil rights and the pursuit of the individual

happiness, regarding free-enterprise and building wealth?

-Mark

[Guest guest]

I joined this group to learn about native nutrition. Isn't this all a

bit off topic? Or have I somehow arrived at the wrong group?

Miriam

[Guest guest]

>Oh, I'm just so confused. Wait, perhaps I mean 'befuddled'.

>

>

>

Gene,

I like the word flummoxed myself. It, like befuddled, has a confused

sound to it. But the former contains an " x " which makes it more

exciting, lol.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Gene,

" What a pompous, self deluded twerp. Your ideas are unfamiliar? "

********

Gene,

Please. Didn't the list just go through a painful discussion of list

etiquette and that we should all be careful to respond to ideas and

not individual people, epecially when using language like this?

Y'all know I am not the list owner or moderator, but it pains me to

read things like this, and probably troubles others, too.

I also admire your readiness to support social programs that ensure

the well-being of those in our society that are less fortunate. I

share your concerns. But, there is a lot of abuse and wastefulness

in these programs also. I'd feel a lot better about helping to

support them (with my tax dollars) if such abuses were not so

common. Is it possible for the government to run things more

efficiently? I don't know.

For the record, I have spent much of my adult life being supported

through tax dollars. First, with a husband who was active duty Coast

Guard, and who is still in the Reserves and now a municipal police

officer. In my non-profit days, my program was largely funded with

EPA and state money. A lot of those enviro programs have fallen by

the wayside in recent years.

Vivian

[Guest guest]

Well, I'm so glad that these issues of netiquette are so much more important to

you than the snarly elitist attitude of Berg, etc...

Never in any of my posts have I ever suggested that governments are by nature

good, or that there aren't many abuses by governments. So, I'm really not sure

of the relevance of your comments, other than to say that if you really believe

that the environment and poor people would be better off if they relied on the

good will and generosity of corporations and people like Berg, good luck

to you!

>

>

> Gene,

>

> " What a pompous, self deluded twerp. Your ideas are unfamiliar? "

>

> ********

>

> Gene,

>

> Please. Didn't the list just go through a painful discussion of list

> etiquette and that we should all be careful to respond to ideas and

> not individual people, epecially when using language like this?

> Y'all know I am not the list owner or moderator, but it pains me to

> read things like this, and probably troubles others, too.

>

> I also admire your readiness to support social programs that ensure

> the well-being of those in our society that are less fortunate. I

> share your concerns. But, there is a lot of abuse and wastefulness

> in these programs also. I'd feel a lot better about helping to

> support them (with my tax dollars) if such abuses were not so

> common. Is it possible for the government to run things more

> efficiently? I don't know.

>

> For the record, I have spent much of my adult life being supported

> through tax dollars. First, with a husband who was active duty Coast

> Guard, and who is still in the Reserves and now a municipal police

> officer. In my non-profit days, my program was largely funded with

> EPA and state money. A lot of those enviro programs have fallen by

> the wayside in recent years.

> Vivian

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN "

> " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT

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> <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B>

> <UL>

> <LI><B><A

HREF= " / " >NATIVE

> NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI>

> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message

archive

> with Onibasu</LI>

> </UL></FONT>

> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A

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> <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer

> Wanita Sears

> </FONT></PRE>

> </BODY>

> </HTML>

>

[Guest guest]

Miriam-

>I joined this group to learn about native nutrition. Isn't this all a

>bit off topic? Or have I somehow arrived at the wrong group?

The POLITICS tag is designed to allow people interested in political

discussions to conduct a certain amount of them while enabling uninterested

members to filter political messages into the trash, but a recent rash of

messages have gone way over the line, leaving me no choice but to take action.

Please stick around and give the list a chance -- and if you'd like to

filter out political messages but don't know how, feel free to ask for

assistance.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi Gene,

> Never in any of my posts have I ever suggested that governments are

by nature good, or that there aren't many abuses by governments. So,

I'm really not sure of the relevance of your comments...

********

Yes, I realize that I brought up a new topic there. I was just

adding my two cents, mainly because I thought it would be rude of me

to reply to your posts only to say that I found some of your language

upsetting, without adding something else to it.

************

....other than to say that if you really believe that the environment

and poor people would be better off if they relied on the good will

and generosity of corporations and people like Berg, good

luck to you!

************

Well, I thought I had said just the opposite and that I agreed with

some of your ideas, even if I did not like the way you expressed

them. Obviously I was not very clear.

Vivian

[Guest guest]

_____

From: implode7@... [mailto:implode7@...]

Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:20 AM

Subject: Re: POLITICS - Anger management (Was: and me

rotting in hell)

Well, I'm so glad that these issues of netiquette are so much

more important to you than the snarly elitist attitude of Berg,

etc...

Never in any of my posts have I ever suggested that governments

are by nature good, or that there aren't many abuses by

governments. So, I'm really not sure of the relevance of your

comments, other than to say that if you really believe that the

environment and poor people would be better off if they relied on

the good will and generosity of corporations and people like

Berg, good luck to you!

-----------------------

Implode,

Regarding your dim view of corporations: Do you view big

corporations differently than smaller ones? Do you view

non-incorporated businesses different than corporations? Is your

beef more with the corporate structure, or more with business in

general?

Let me also ask you this way: In which environment would poor

citizens fare better: 1) in pure communism where there is no

incorporation or free enterprise and all is owned and operated by

the State; 2) or in a pure capitalism where business abounds and

government is restricted to a mere skeleton (of what it is now)?

-Mark

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:13:46 -0800 Gene Schwartz wrote:

> But, for your information, I do this all telekinetically, and I am

> controlling the computer of the fascist corporate executive who lives across

> the street.

LOL Gene, I knew there was some humor in this thread somewhere!

Hearing some of the comments from the pro-corporation clones on this thread, I

have to wonder if they have ever lived a life other than one of privilege. If

so, I have to wonder why they have bought into the lie of big business giving a

damn about anyhing other than profit at all other expense.

You only have to walk into one or two food warehouses (such as I have) and see

the filthy conditions that occur (rat urine & feces on food, bird feces,

cockroaches, etc.) and hear the indifference that the owners of such places have

toward the public to know the importance of government regulation of industry

and business. Or smell some of the rotton seafood that producers try to pass

off, or see some of the bacterial contamination. Or see all the unreported

alergens, unapproved dyes, and illegal pesticides present in imported foods that

would go right into your kitchen without regulation. They think they can get

away with it until they get caught. Just think if there were no one to catch

them at all.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/2/2005 2:01:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,

colowe@... writes:

Yeah that's funny and clever and all that, but I assume I can

assume the answers since you refuse to give any. Why did you not

abstain from buying your computer, and instead give that money to

the poor? Why did you instead give money for your computer to a

capitalistic enterprise that, according to you, harms so many

people? Why do you exhaust yourself posting here when you could

be out donating all your time to benefiting the poor? Do you work

for a company? Do you take their check? Do you make money for

yourself and make a company richer? Do you drive a car to your

job? Do you live in a house? Do you buy clothes?

_____

[Chris]

I think there are some good points embedded in here, but I just want to

point out that it's essentially impossible to avoid participation in systems one

abhors unless one lives a life of solitude, regardless of what that system

is. For example, I drive on public roads and work at a place that sells

products to the state highway system and am writing this email using technology

that was partly developed by the government.

On the other hand, I'm not attempting to judge anyone's moral fortitude

either. But Gene has made it clear that one's personal ethics, dispositions of

sympathy, and what good for others one will voluntarily do have nothing to do

with one's personal ethics.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/2/2005 2:28:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,

seaorca@... writes:

Hearing some of the comments from the pro-corporation clones on this thread,

I have to wonder if they have ever lived a life other than one of privilege.

____

Hi ,

I think that I have, but I suppose what you would consider a " life of

privilege " is a relative term, so I'll let you decide:

My conception was an accident and my father claimed not to believe it so

last I saw him I was attached to a placenta.

I was born in Queens, NY, but moved to a small countryish town in MA when I

was 10 months old in order to, in part, to have a safer place to live.

My single mother lived in my grandparents house with her youngest brother

and was on AFDC ( " welfare " ) for a considerable period of time, as well as having

various jobs while my grandmother took care of me during the day.

My mother got married when I was seven and began a construction company with

her husband of which she was President. At this point the combined income

of our household was about $100,000.

After hurricane Hugo my mother and her husband went to do work in St. Croix

while I lived back with my grandparents. The government went back on their

contract and didn't pay them, and they got mugged at a stoplight. The mugger

didn't believe my step-father that he only had $30 on him, so they beat him

on the head with a 4x4 29 times and pistol-whacked him in the head numerous

more times, and he suffered a traumatic brain injury, died twice on the way to

the hospital, and became a vegetable for the next several years.

The business went down the tube and my mother went bankrupt, and the savings

of my grandparents used to start the company were forever since lost. After

his in-patient period, my mother took care of my vegetabalish step-father,

and was driven to overloads of prescription drugs, developed PTSD and

fibromyalgia.

We soon lost the house after defaulting on the loan for the materials, and

we were living on subsidized housing where the linoleum floors and carpets had

burn holes all over them and the hallways smelled like excretory fluids of

cats. Next came divorce and SSDI for my mother.

I went to a community college and then a state university and then a

community college again and now I'm working in a job making $10.35/hr that has

given

me problems with my hands and major problems with my skin, is overly

exhausting, depressing, and will destroy my health if I don't leave as quick as

possible. (Might be leaving soon.)

By your criteria, does this constitute a " life of privilege " ?

Thanks for asking,

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

I didn't know there was a way to filter out the political tags (my delete

finger is getting a blister <g>). Please let me have the directions.

[Guest guest]

_____

From: seaorca@... [mailto:seaorca@...]

Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 1:19 PM

Subject: RE: POLITICS - Anger management (Was: and me

rotting in hell)

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:13:46 -0800 Gene Schwartz wrote:

> But, for your information, I do this all telekinetically, and I

am

> controlling the computer of the fascist corporate executive who

lives across

> the street.

LOL Gene, I knew there was some humor in this thread somewhere!

Hearing some of the comments from the pro-corporation clones on

this thread, I have to wonder if they have ever lived a life

other than one of privilege. If so, I have to wonder why they

have bought into the lie of big business giving a damn about

anyhing other than profit at all other expense.

You only have to walk into one or two food warehouses (such as I

have) and see the filthy conditions that occur (rat urine & feces

on food, bird feces, cockroaches, etc.) and hear the indifference

that the owners of such places have toward the public to know the

importance of government regulation of industry and business. Or

smell some of the rotton seafood that producers try to pass off,

or see some of the bacterial contamination. Or see all the

unreported alergens, unapproved dyes, and illegal pesticides

present in imported foods that would go right into your kitchen

without regulation. They think they can get away with it until

they get caught. Just think if there were no one to catch them at

all.

-----------------

,

I don't think this thread ever consisted of defending incompetent

businesses. I think it started out comparing two possible

solutions: more gov legislation and less civil liability, or less

gov regulation and more civil liability. I believe that ,

, etc, and I (and Jeffery Quick?) are suggesting that gov

legislation is an inferior method of harm reduction, and that

civil-litigation is a superior method. In other words, more

government is not the best solution to the problems you list

above. No one disagrees that problems like that need solutions;

we were discussing which solution is best.

Nor does the oversights and negligence of some businesses indict

the free-enterprise (or corporate?) system. Too often the

services businesses provide and the resources they produce are

overlooked by anti-capitalists when citing problems. That

particular business was not being smart because they risked

customer dissatisfaction at best and customer harm at worst.

Business is compassionate only in the sense of it being a wise

policy to your customers - to make more money. Therein is

capitalism's built-in safeguard against rampant incompetence; the

customer's desire is the bottom line and the last word.

Did you attempt to do something about it when you saw the

unhealthy conditions you described above? Were there people

getting hurt?

-Mark

[Guest guest]

No, Your in the right group. It is very active here, and some discussions

go off topic, but the discourse no matter what it is, is lively, and

usually informative

> [Original Message]

> From: Miriam <myrtle_miriam@...>

> < >

> Date: 3/2/2005 10:58:21 AM

> Subject: Re: POLITICS - Anger management (Was: and me rotting

in hell)

>

>

>

>

> I joined this group to learn about native nutrition. Isn't this all a

> bit off topic? Or have I somehow arrived at the wrong group?

>

> Miriam

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN "

" http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT

FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " >

> <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B>

> <UL>

> <LI><B><A

HREF= " / " >NATIVE

NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI>

> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message

archive with Onibasu</LI>

> </UL></FONT>

> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A

HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B>

Idol

> <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer

> Wanita Sears

> </FONT></PRE>

> </BODY>

> </HTML>

>

[Guest guest]

All of this discussion is a moot point. We were all born into this web of

helplessness. Only the Native peoples (I.E. Native Americans) had true

freedom, true autonomy, and worked with the earth not against it. Our

society now will not be able to sustain itself for much longer the way it

is, due to people dying from cancer( how many sick people do you know?)

from pollutants or other illnesses from pollutants and improper nutrition.

Plus oil will be drying up soon. Remember the empires of the past- remember

the " fertile Crescent " now desert. It was supposedly the birthplace of

" agriculture " . Look at it now. Look at the roman empire, the egyptians.

They all fell. There are various possibilities for this continent to be

thrown into utter chaos.

I enjoy the discussion, but it is just that. I will be acting this year

by attending an outdoor school where you learn to live the " old "

ways. " native " ways.. The website is www.teachingdrum.org.

Reguardless of what our fate will be as a whole, I wish to be happy. I know

I will never find peace or happiness in this nightmare, so I am going to do

everything I can to not participate in this mess anymore. I can see the

writing on the wall very clearly, especially every day in all the faces of

the people I know. If I can live an alternative life to this " death

culture " , then maybe I can lead by example and others can see there is

another way. People forget our lifestyle now is a tiny drip in the bucket

of human history, physically, mentally we are not evolved for this. That is

why everyone has health problems - mental and physical. But we are all born

into this, and thus know no other way to live. Maybe I wont be successful,

but I cant worry about that. all my life I have been taught lie after lie,

lies that control us, myths that everyone believes.Well I am here to break

them, discover what is possible experientially.

> [Original Message]

> From: mark robert <colowe@...>

> < >

> Date: 3/2/2005 3:54:53 PM

> Subject: RE: RE: POLITICS - Anger management (Was: and me

rotting in hell)

>

>

> _____

>

> From: seaorca@... [mailto:seaorca@...]

> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 1:19 PM

>

> Subject: RE: POLITICS - Anger management (Was: and me

> rotting in hell)

>

>

>

> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:13:46 -0800 Gene Schwartz wrote:

>

> > But, for your information, I do this all telekinetically, and I

> am

> > controlling the computer of the fascist corporate executive who

> lives across

> > the street.

>

> LOL Gene, I knew there was some humor in this thread somewhere!

>

> Hearing some of the comments from the pro-corporation clones on

> this thread, I have to wonder if they have ever lived a life

> other than one of privilege. If so, I have to wonder why they

> have bought into the lie of big business giving a damn about

> anyhing other than profit at all other expense.

>

> You only have to walk into one or two food warehouses (such as I

> have) and see the filthy conditions that occur (rat urine & feces

> on food, bird feces, cockroaches, etc.) and hear the indifference

> that the owners of such places have toward the public to know the

> importance of government regulation of industry and business. Or

> smell some of the rotton seafood that producers try to pass off,

> or see some of the bacterial contamination. Or see all the

> unreported alergens, unapproved dyes, and illegal pesticides

> present in imported foods that would go right into your kitchen

> without regulation. They think they can get away with it until

> they get caught. Just think if there were no one to catch them at

> all.

>

>

>

> -----------------

>

>

>

> ,

>

>

>

> I don't think this thread ever consisted of defending incompetent

> businesses. I think it started out comparing two possible

> solutions: more gov legislation and less civil liability, or less

> gov regulation and more civil liability. I believe that ,

> , etc, and I (and Jeffery Quick?) are suggesting that gov

> legislation is an inferior method of harm reduction, and that

> civil-litigation is a superior method. In other words, more

> government is not the best solution to the problems you list

> above. No one disagrees that problems like that need solutions;

> we were discussing which solution is best.

>

>

>

> Nor does the oversights and negligence of some businesses indict

> the free-enterprise (or corporate?) system. Too often the

> services businesses provide and the resources they produce are

> overlooked by anti-capitalists when citing problems. That

> particular business was not being smart because they risked

> customer dissatisfaction at best and customer harm at worst.

> Business is compassionate only in the sense of it being a wise

> policy to your customers - to make more money. Therein is

> capitalism's built-in safeguard against rampant incompetence; the

> customer's desire is the bottom line and the last word.

>

>

>

> Did you attempt to do something about it when you saw the

> unhealthy conditions you described above? Were there people

> getting hurt?

>

>

>

> -Mark

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Robin Plourde wrote:

>All of this discussion is a moot point. We were all born into this web of

>helplessness. Only the Native peoples (I.E. Native Americans) had true

>freedom, true autonomy, and worked with the earth not against it. Our

>society now will not be able to sustain itself for much longer the way it

>is, due to people dying from cancer( how many sick people do you know?)

>from pollutants or other illnesses from pollutants and improper nutrition.

>Plus oil will be drying up soon. Remember the empires of the past- remember

>the " fertile Crescent " now desert. It was supposedly the birthplace of

> " agriculture " . Look at it now. Look at the roman empire, the egyptians.

>They all fell. There are various possibilities for this continent to be

>thrown into utter chaos.

> I enjoy the discussion, but it is just that. I will be acting this year

>by attending an outdoor school where you learn to live the " old "

>ways. " native " ways.. The website is www.teachingdrum.org.

>Reguardless of what our fate will be as a whole, I wish to be happy. I know

>I will never find peace or happiness in this nightmare, so I am going to do

>everything I can to not participate in this mess anymore. I can see the

>writing on the wall very clearly, especially every day in all the faces of

>the people I know. If I can live an alternative life to this " death

>culture " , then maybe I can lead by example and others can see there is

>another way. People forget our lifestyle now is a tiny drip in the bucket

>of human history, physically, mentally we are not evolved for this. That is

>why everyone has health problems - mental and physical. But we are all born

>into this, and thus know no other way to live. Maybe I wont be successful,

>but I cant worry about that. all my life I have been taught lie after lie,

>lies that control us, myths that everyone believes.Well I am here to break

>them, discover what is possible experientially.

>

>

Bravo! Your activism is admirable. Might I add only that world oil

production may have already peaked, which may actually be a mixed

blessing for the planet and those who care.

http://www.drydipstick.com/

Deanna

[Guest guest]

-

>Hearing some of the comments from the pro-corporation clones on this

>thread, I have to wonder if they have ever lived a life other than one of

>privilege. If so, I have to wonder why they have bought into the lie of

>big business giving a damn about anyhing other than profit at all other

>expense.

People can speak for themselves, of course, but I know that at the very

least, not all of the propertarian types on this list have come from

anything approaching a life of privilege.

>You only have to walk into one or two food warehouses (such as I have) and

>see the filthy conditions that occur (rat urine & feces on food, bird

>feces, cockroaches, etc.) and hear the indifference that the owners of

>such places have toward the public to know the importance of government

>regulation of industry and business. Or smell some of the rotton seafood

>that producers try to pass off, or see some of the bacterial

>contamination. Or see all the unreported alergens, unapproved dyes, and

>illegal pesticides present in imported foods that would go right into your

>kitchen without regulation. They think they can get away with it until

>they get caught. Just think if there were no one to catch them at all.

Unfortunately, most people today have very little historical

perspective. They're not aware of why many food regulations were

established in the first place. I'd suggest reading Sinclair , but

then I imagine we'd be deluged with elaborate explanations of how private

certification and private testing and private blah-dee-blah would be

infinitely superior.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>I didn't know there was a way to filter out the political tags (my delete

>finger is getting a blister <g>). Please let me have the directions.

Email me offlist -- tell me what mail client you use, and I'll tell you how

to create a filter.

-

[Guest guest]

" But Gene has made it clear that one's personal ethics, dispositions of

sympathy, and what good for others one will voluntarily do have nothing to do

with one's personal ethics. "

Huh? Glad I made that clear...

[Guest guest]

> Robin Plourde wrote:

>

>>All of this discussion is a moot point. We were all born into this web of

>>helplessness. Only the Native peoples (I.E. Native Americans) had true

>>freedom, true autonomy, and worked with the earth not against it.

Careful Robin, you might be a noble savage syndrome leftist like me. :-)

There's an excellent review at Issue 154 of the Museletter

(http://www.museletter.com/) of Diemand's book Collapse! (also author

of Guns, Germs and Steel) on oil, economic and localizing issues.

> Bravo! Your activism is admirable. Might I add only that world oil

> production may have already peaked, which may actually be a mixed

> blessing for the planet and those who care.

>

> http://www.drydipstick.com/

>

>

> Deanna

During the highest gas prices time last year, read somewhere OPEC was saying

they weren't holding back. All they could do.

Wanita

--

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.1 - Release Date: 2/27/2005

[Guest guest]

Ooohhhh Yay! I read Guns,germ, and steel - Look forward to this new book!

If I have enough time before I leave for the woods. I certainly have had

vibes of " collapse " for for awhile. In my mind not a question of " if " , but

of " how soo

> [Original Message]

> From: Wanita Sears <wanitawa@...>

> < >

> Date: 3/2/2005 8:43:16 PM

> Subject: Re: RE: POLITICS - Anger management (Was: and me

rotting in hell)

>

>

> > Robin Plourde wrote:

> >

> >>All of this discussion is a moot point. We were all born into this web

of

> >>helplessness. Only the Native peoples (I.E. Native Americans) had true

> >>freedom, true autonomy, and worked with the earth not against it.

>

> Careful Robin, you might be a noble savage syndrome leftist like me. :-)

> There's an excellent review at Issue 154 of the Museletter

> (http://www.museletter.com/) of Diemand's book Collapse! (also

author

> of Guns, Germs and Steel) on oil, economic and localizing issues.

>

> > Bravo! Your activism is admirable. Might I add only that world oil

> > production may have already peaked, which may actually be a mixed

> > blessing for the planet and those who care.

> >

> > http://www.drydipstick.com/

> >

> >

> > Deanna

>

> During the highest gas prices time last year, read somewhere OPEC was

saying

> they weren't holding back. All they could do.

>

> Wanita

>

>

>

> --

> No virus found in this outgoing message.

> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.1 - Release Date: 2/27/2005

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

>>Bravo! Your activism is admirable. Might I add only that world oil

>>production may have already peaked, which may actually be a mixed

>>blessing for the planet and those who care.

>>

>>http://www.drydipstick.com/

>>

>>

>>Deanna

>>

>>

>

>During the highest gas prices time last year, read somewhere OPEC was saying

>they weren't holding back. All they could do.

>

>Wanita

>

Oh, do see or hear Heinberg on the subject of global peak oil.

" tis brilliant.

http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/lectures/richard_heinberg_at_the_vancouver_plan\

etarium

But yes, I have read that the Saudis may have damaged their fields due

to overproduction, from Republican Bush adviser, , of

& Co International, no less.

Excerpt follows.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/80C89E7E-1DE9-42BC-920B-91E5850FB067.htm

" Precious resource

" Luckily for them, demand quietened down in the 1980s. People thought

when they cut production that they were simply trying to drive up oil

prices, but in fact they were resting their fields to limit the damage.

" But then came the first Gulf war and they were forced to crank

production up again and they have been fighting the problem ever since.

" In 1981 in their own book, Aramco and its World, something they give

out to new employees and such, they openly talked about how maximising

production would permanently harm their fields and that maximum

production could not continue. They thought demand would fall and the

fields would be sustained. Unfortunately that has not been the case. "

The reasons for maximising production are not always obvious, they can

be technical, but also geo-political.

" There is always a balance for producers. Do you want to conserve your

fields and produce slowly? Or do you want to be a statesman? Would you

rather be a market leader with all that brings, or a smaller, less

powerful producer? "

The idea that Saudi Arabia could force its production up to 12mbpd or

higher is met with scorn by .

" This is dangerous stuff, " warns . " If we say they have not

peaked and then they choose to further increase production, they will

only hasten their field decline, and waste huge amounts of valuable oil

into the bargain. And oil, as we are only now coming to realise, is the

world's most precious resource. " "

Deanna